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The change of NB cloak will totally change this class, most fun part gone,
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ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Players have built tankier and tankier because they could while still dealing tremendous damage. One of the few classes that could actually bring them down is being gutted.
You mean do damage behind the safety of zerg on 24k hp glass cannon nightblade tarnished sniper, trying to bring down that templar/dk who is just trying to 1vx against greater odds and facing his opponents bravely face to face.
LMAO, so I guess the snipers and Special Ops soldiers in all the worlds armies - who are hailed as the best of the best soldiers in real life - that operate mostly from the shadows and distance to protect the other troops are just cowards? You're saying Special Forces are just cowards? Do you see how ridiculous you sound right now?
Squads of night blades in stealth have frequently stopped reinforcements from arriving from the other factions when those other factions are trying to take one of the keeps owned by those nightblades' factions. Most of the time their own faction doesn't even know they have eliminated all potential reinforcements and that is why the keep was saved. They don't ask for recognition or glory.
But sure, they're cowards. Go tell that to the face of a Navy Seal & see how they react to you. Navy Seals hide in shadows, strike from the shadows with overwhelming force and then slide right back into the shadows. But ZOS wants to just make that harder and harder to do in Cyrodiil every patch.
Nah, a squad of NB gankers can maybe kill 2-3 ppl at best. But a squad of small scalers can absolutely take on 15+ people. There are plenty of clips on Youtube demonstrating how groups of 3-4 small scalers fight head on with 15+ ppl from another faction. Show me a clip of NB gankers doing the same.
Take a minute to think about your statements. You are literally arguing against yourself. By what you just said small scalers need a nerf then.0 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Funny how the cloak change will not affect any NBs but we have players desperate in this thread.
In a very specific build mentioned (ranged snipers) it might not affect the end result (getting a snipe from invisibility) but will affect build, the resources, the survivability, and most importantly how it is played. But from the PoV of the person in the receiving end of an attack from invisibility in that specific scenario, not much will change and that was the point of the previous comment and the fact that the rage people have towards cloaking NBs is misplaced when they ask for nerfs. That example was for one build and playstyle, and like the comment said above, it doesn't even begin to account for all the myriad other ways people play NB.1 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
@ioResult
I quite literally tested in on PTS before commenting. Perma cloak is 100% possible.
Maybe you should test it before commenting? Or maybe you should increase your game knowledge? Took me 30 seconds to come up with a viable option. And I don't even main a NB.
You know who this change won't affect?
GANKERS
If you knew anything about playing Nightblade in PvP, you'd know that the Nightblades who use cloak the LEAST are gankers, ESPECIALLY ranged gankers.
They'll just sit there as they do today, crouched, using ZERO Cloaks until you come across their path. When you do, they'll group gank you as they do today and then just toggle that cloak on with one button press and get away.
If you think there will be LESS ranged gankers out there because of this change you couldn't be more wrong.
There will be more because its easier to ranged gank with this change - they'll have full Mag pools to just toggle Cloak on with one button press and still run away from you.
It's Nightblades who actually fight you and aren't running around in a Rallying Crutch build who are affected by this change.
So when you get ganked more often as a result of this and the Nightblades who have been fighting you just go back to ranged ganking and then new Nightblades come into Cyrodiil to try the easier ranged ganking meta, don't come on these forums crying because YOU'VE BEEN WARNED. Cyrodiil will be filled with ranged gankblades as a result of this change. Bet on it.
Disagree.
It absolutely will affect gankers.
It is true that gankers do not rely on spamming cloak to execute ganks. I would agree that these changes will not inconvenience their attacks.
And that's fine. While gankers are annoying (and a big reason PvP is pretty brutal to new players), the reality for me (and I would assume most experienced players, certainly those better than me) is that most of the time they fail to get a quick kill. I'm not saying they dont ever get me. Some are quite good and succeed. But it's not like they a boogieman who have me in fear whenever I leave a keep. It's after the failed gank where these changes will very much affect them. They will find it more resource intensive to avoid getting killed by a retaliating player. Which I don;t see as a problem. Ganker has a surprise attack, able to strike first. If they fail, the consequences should be difficult to avoid. It won;t affect gankers offense (which is not being mentioned in all these "NB are dead" threads). They can still do what they do. It's the margin for error is narrowing and consequences for failing is getting higher and that's not a bad thing.
As far as the part about Nightblades that "actually fight," I don;t agree with your categorization. I might not like ganking, but it certainly is a legal form of fighting. They are certainly trying to kill me and certainly fighting me (and the game certainly thinks so as I am kept in combat for 5 minutes afterward).
It must be nice to main a class that does not have to run around relying on a "Rallying Crutch" build. It is true those NBs who don't use a meta build will be affected the most. But, that's ten years of ESO. When a class gets so strong that it can ignore the meta everyone has to run, their abilities have historically gotten nerfed and they have had to adjust. Sorcerers right now are in the same boat. They can ignore some defenses that other classes need because Ward is so strong. Zos is trying to reign that in. We'll see how that unfolds in the next update. I get it. A class defining skill that allowed for unique builds is getting nerfed and people aren;t happy about it. That's an annual occurrence in ESO. nothing new here.
OK, we are warned that more NBs will try to gank us. Like that already is happening all the time. At least now, it will be easier to make them pay if they fail.
Another pointing out with his last sentence this is a nerf for convenience of 1vxers. Great. Let’s care more about making it easier for the tank builds to kill the builds that are sacrificing way more to be able to kill stuff. Cool2 -
Tcholl✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I respect your opinion and I have no doubt you have much much more experience on NBs.
I still think such a change will affect ranged players also, since they cloack whenever you survive the attack and go in their direction. It will make it harder to flee and even worst to come back and fire by the back.
It will probable affect every NB in some way and degree tbh.PC NA - Greyhost0 -
Ash_ShadowDragonSoul ShrivenAsh_ShadowDragon wrote: »IMO as a NB main in PvP, its an interesting change and the only nerf I see is when its used as a get away tool which is typically done by gankers.... so a nerf to gankers, but doesnt really effect 1vX; yea Im for it.
You’re not a Nightblade main. You’re a brawler. You play on a Tankblade, the one and only playstyle for Nightblade that ZOS seems to want to allow.
You can take your same Rallying Crutch build and play it on any class.
Play it on the Sorc carry class now and you’ll kill more people and never die.
Shield, Streak & repeat till Ulti-dump. Two thumb playstyle on a controller. EZ Mode PvP.
I think my 20k resistances will disagree with that claim lol! My survivability is dodge roll and shade...... so no I am not a tankblade
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StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Let’s say the NB has 2k mag recovery and Cloaks 2 times on the live server. That equals a cost of 9180 magicka over 6 seconds. In 6 seconds, the NB gains 3 ticks of mag recovery, totaling 6k mag. 9180 - 6000 = 3k deficit.
Using the same duration, PTS Cloak would cost 9720 magicka over 6 seconds, and the NB gains nothing from magicka recovery. However, the NB can cast Siphoning Attacks every 2s to restore 2600 magicka back at the cost of 4k HP. That’s 7800k mag restored for a total of 12k HP cost. Total deficit is 1920 mag and 12k HP.
So no, I don’t think NB is going to be better off unless they specifically build for PTS Cloak, which is a good thing.
The way you are describing how a SnipeBlade uses cloak is you showing us that you don't play a ranged ganker SnipeBlade.
They play with half that Mag recovery. They don't need it. They cloak once to get away and that's it. Unless they get caught too close and revealed. When that happens they die no matter how many times they spam cloak because detect pots and everything else keep them revealed already today. They're glass cannons. They are all damage and no regen. They're not spamming anything like Siphoning Attacks until they get away and are safe.
If they're trying to solo Snipe gank you then you can chase them as you think you do. But in groups? If you're solo you might get one of the group but the rest will get away. Even if you get multiple of them in a group you rarely get them all and then all one does is put up a camp, the rest Rez at their camp and go back to doing it all over again. This change has no effect on that style of play.
Nightblades who want to get closer and fight both other players and NPCs in Cyrodiil are the ones who will need to do something like you describe above as a necessity next patch. This change makes their lives more difficult for no good reason. All this change does is make it more difficult for solo Nightblades who aren't ganking to even just try to solo kill all the guards at a resource. So what are they going to do? They're gonna change their builds and go be SnipeBlades in bigger Nightblade groups instead. Or they're gonna leave the game / turn off ESO Plus.
Net/Net is that all this change does is just eliminates and restricts playstyles as well as reduce ZOS' revenues, nothing more.
You all who play PVP Nightblades as casuals or not at all in Cyrodill can argue with us who play PvP Nightblades literally every day all that you want. The rise of more SnipeBlade groups is coming if this goes live with no Mag regen and no visual clue in the skill bar that its currently on or off. Why? Because SnipeBlade will be the easiest and only one of a few effective ways to play a Nightblade in Cyrodiil. And people like me refuse to keep paying ZOS every month to restrict how we play the game.
Nah I play a ranged gank Sorc with alliance stealth potions. I’m still doing just fine lol. Seeing gankblades cry about Cloak nerf is hilarious to me.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc2 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Players have built tankier and tankier because they could while still dealing tremendous damage. One of the few classes that could actually bring them down is being gutted.
You mean do damage behind the safety of zerg on 24k hp glass cannon nightblade tarnished sniper, trying to bring down that templar/dk who is just trying to 1vx against greater odds and facing his opponents bravely face to face.
LMAO, so I guess the snipers and Special Ops soldiers in all the worlds armies - who are hailed as the best of the best soldiers in real life - that operate mostly from the shadows and distance to protect the other troops are just cowards? You're saying Special Forces are just cowards? Do you see how ridiculous you sound right now?
Squads of night blades in stealth have frequently stopped reinforcements from arriving from the other factions when those other factions are trying to take one of the keeps owned by those nightblades' factions. Most of the time their own faction doesn't even know they have eliminated all potential reinforcements and that is why the keep was saved. They don't ask for recognition or glory.
But sure, they're cowards. Go tell that to the face of a Navy Seal & see how they react to you. Navy Seals hide in shadows, strike from the shadows with overwhelming force and then slide right back into the shadows. But ZOS wants to just make that harder and harder to do in Cyrodiil every patch.
Nah, a squad of NB gankers can maybe kill 2-3 ppl at best. But a squad of small scalers can absolutely take on 15+ people. There are plenty of clips on Youtube demonstrating how groups of 3-4 small scalers fight head on with 15+ ppl from another faction. Show me a clip of NB gankers doing the same.
Take a minute to think about your statements. You are literally arguing against yourself. By what you just said small scalers need a nerf then.
They’ve already been nerfed over the yearsPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Most people tend to focus on the Cloak cost increase and I do admit - this is a hefty nerf (imho too hefty) and as many people mentioned, the result will be the opposite of the ZOS goal. They want to make perma-cloak impossible or close to impossible, while at the same time making cloak more accessible for all NB builds. And with increased cost, majority of the builds wont be able to sustain it for any useful duration, aside from heavy focused magicka builds that will feel the nerf too, but they still will be able to keep it up for long duration.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I respect your opinion and I have no doubt you have much much more experience on NBs.
I still think such a change will affect ranged players also, since they cloack whenever you survive the attack and go in their direction. It will make it harder to flee and even worst to come back and fire by the back.
It will probable affect every NB in some way and degree tbh.
Besides, if taking into account siphoning/equilibrium combo, any build will be able to sustain cloak longer, but again - it is in the opposite of the ZOS goal, as they want to make cloak easier to use, but the reality is it will be harder to use:
- Live: Press a button every 3 seconds, without spamming, average build can use cloak for a duration that will make it useful.
- PTS: Activate cloak "on" and press other button every 2 seconds and optionally other button if you are low on health (Rally). Once you are done, disable cloak.
^ All decent NB players will do it and I don't see how ZOS can "patch" something like this. They would have to outright "block" every magicka gain, from potion or set like Darloc and that would be too big of a nerf even for ZOS standards & would require to much work & hassle (and would pretty much destroy the class btw).
Now, some people mentioned that since cloak will be a toggle, when it comes to PvP, it will be possible to have it on other bar and on your main bar you can have all of the skills required for burst combo. So "ganking" will be actually easier - especially ranged ganking. But as you mentioned - if something goes wrong, escaping will be harder than vs now on live server (especially melee, but ranged will be also affected in a minimal way). I actually suspect that next patch, we may see more players switching to ranged ganking or bombing, since it will be easiest play-style for NB.
Now, the reason why I said that it will affect NB "but not in the way everyone is thinking about" is because cloak will be a toggle. And you might be thinking: That is better. That is more convenient. More smooth. And in a "laboratory environment", in a vacuum, without any "live" aspects of the game - indeed - you would be right. But in real live server environment, with lag and other player, realistically - it will be much worse vs cast-able cloak.
Think about it. Cloak was designed since day 1 to be a cast-able skill. It operated that way for over 10 years. Everything in the game that interacts with stealth & invisibility, every mechanic, every system, every skill is coded & tuned with "cast-able" cloak in mind. Cloak was never ever meant to be a toggle or a stance you switch to. And now, all of the sudden it will be - and trust me on that - it will cause whole mountain of issue.
One of such issue can already be seen on PTS. Since Detection Potions do interact with stealth & invisibility and were designed & tuned to work on "cast-able" cloak - right now, on PTS those potion bug-out cloak interrupting it, but only partially. The other half of the cloak still works & is toggled "on", so you don't have mag recovery and magicka is still being drained & goes into limbo. And that is because detection skills were never ever supposed to counter "toggle-able" cloak. They don't have that coded. Those things are coded in a simple way to simply cancel invisibility & there is no code that will "toggle off" cloak - since cloak was always duration based skill.
The other issue is typical PvP or just laggy environment. What very often happens on live server is that due to a lag, server delays, server not registering something or registering it too late, even something like Bow LA may interrupt cloak. It should not - but it happens. That is why NBs tend to initially "spam cloak" 2 or 3 times, to force server to register their status as cloaked/invisible. It is something NBs should not be forced to do, but they have to in order to play at all in laggy environment (which PvP it is more or less 24/7).
Guess what is going to happen when cloak will become a toggle ? All of the sudden it will be extremely hyper unreliable. It will be basically a "toss of a coin" if it works or not. Toggle skills & lag do not go along well. Having a core skill that is basically "RNG" if it works or not is what I fear the most. It is like having Vigor or Shileds that "may" work, but it is RNG.
Players can & will adapt to the cost increase... but how can you adapt to a buggy & unreliable skill that sometimes will work & sometimes won't ? The only way to "adapt" to something like this is to not use it, but at this point you might as well roll different class.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on 19 September 2024 15:045 -
Tcholl✭✭✭@Tommy_The_Gun Thank you very much for such a detailed explanation. I feel you, since I HATE toggle skills and cannot use those, specially in PvP. I see you are not defending an abuse of the skill but rather have some solution to not kill cloak usage either.
I do not want players abusing any skill, but certainly do not want NB or any other class ripped off their playstyle (believe me I know this feeling).
I really hope ZOS finds a solution to please everyone, since we are all part of this same game and feed from each other no matter classes or skills.
PC NA - Greyhost1 -
Oldaraness✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Most people tend to focus on the Cloak cost increase and I do admit - this is a hefty nerf (imho too hefty) and as many people mentioned, the result will be the opposite of the ZOS goal. They want to make perma-cloak impossible or close to impossible, while at the same time making cloak more accessible for all NB builds. And with increased cost, majority of the builds wont be able to sustain it for any useful duration, aside from heavy focused magicka builds that will feel the nerf too, but they still will be able to keep it up for long duration.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I respect your opinion and I have no doubt you have much much more experience on NBs.
I still think such a change will affect ranged players also, since they cloack whenever you survive the attack and go in their direction. It will make it harder to flee and even worst to come back and fire by the back.
It will probable affect every NB in some way and degree tbh.
Besides, if taking into account siphoning/equilibrium combo, any build will be able to sustain cloak longer, but again - it is in the opposite of the ZOS goal, as they want to make cloak easier to use, but the reality is it will be harder to use:
- Live: Press a button every 3 seconds, without spamming, average build can use cloak for a duration that will make it useful.
- PTS: Activate cloak "on" and press other button every 2 seconds and optionally other button if you are low on health (Rally). Once you are done, disable cloak.
^ All decent NB players will do it and I don't see how ZOS can "patch" something like this. They would have to outright "block" every magicka gain, from potion or set like Darloc and that would be too big of a nerf even for ZOS standards & would require to much work & hassle (and would pretty much destroy the class btw).
Now, some people mentioned that since cloak will be a toggle, when it comes to PvP, it will be possible to have it on other bar and on your main bar you can have all of the skills required for burst combo. So "ganking" will be actually easier - especially ranged ganking. But as you mentioned - if something goes wrong, escaping will be harder than vs now on live server (especially melee, but ranged will be also affected in a minimal way). I actually suspect that next patch, we may see more players switching to ranged ganking or bombing, since it will be easiest play-style for NB.
Now, the reason why I said that it will affect NB "but not in the way everyone is thinking about" is because cloak will be a toggle. And you might be thinking: That is better. That is more convenient. More smooth. And in a "laboratory environment", in a vacuum, without any "live" aspects of the game - indeed - you would be right. But in real live server environment, with lag and other player, realistically - it will be much worse vs cast-able cloak.
Think about it. Cloak was designed since day 1 to be a cast-able skill. It operated that way for over 10 years. Everything in the game that interacts with stealth & invisibility, every mechanic, every system, every skill is coded & tuned with "cast-able" cloak in mind. Cloak was never ever meant to be a toggle or a stance you switch to. And now, all of the sudden it will be - and trust me on that - it will cause whole mountain of issue.
One of such issue can already be seen on PTS. Since Detection Potions do interact with stealth & invisibility and were designed & tuned to work on "cast-able" cloak - right now, on PTS those potion bug-out cloak interrupting it, but only partially. The other half of the cloak still works & is toggled "on", so you don't have mag recovery and magicka is still being drained & goes into limbo. And that is because detection skills were never ever supposed to counter "toggle-able" cloak. They don't have that coded. Those things are coded in a simple way to simply cancel invisibility & there is no code that will "toggle off" cloak - since cloak was always duration based skill.
The other issue is typical PvP or just laggy environment. What very often happens on live server is that due to a lag, server delays, server not registering something or registering it too late, even something like Bow LA may interrupt cloak. It should not - but it happens. That is why NBs tend to initially "spam cloak" 2 or 3 times, to force server to register their status as cloaked/invisible. It is something NBs should not be forced to do, but they have to in order to play at all in laggy environment (which PvP it is more or less 24/7).
Guess what is going to happen when cloak will become a toggle ? All of the sudden it will be extremely hyper unreliable. It will be basically a "toss of a coin" if it works or not. Toggle skills & lag do not go along well. Having a core skill that is basically "RNG" if it works or not is what I fear the most. It is like having Vigor or Shileds that "may" work, but it is RNG.
Players can & will adapt to the cost increase... but how can you adapt to a buggy & unreliable skill that sometimes will work & sometimes won't ? The only way to "adapt" to something like this is to not use it, but at this point you might as well roll different class.
THIS. Please all of you, read THIS. This is the real problem. Thanks @Tommy_The_Gun4 -
darkwealdSoul ShrivenI main a NB and have enjoyed both PVE and PVP content since 2015.
I've tried the changes in PTS and IMO feel that this change was pointless and not well thought out. It doesn't fix anything and to me is just annoying. It takes the control of a mechanic that has been in the game since the beginning to cater to a small group.
My 2gp.
3 -
TDVM✭✭✭✭✭The fun will remain, and nothing will change for the most part, it will just be a little harder to go invisible (which has long been required)0 -
Veinblood1965✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think many of you are missing the point. It's a core change to a class. It's the one used most often by non-tank nb's in PVP. Rather like making major changes to streak, or jabs or the famed beam. It's not that it might not still be usable but why play the class after this change if that's why you chose it in the first place. Stealth is fun, it's WHY people play the class. If I didn't want to stealth out I'd play my sorc or arcanist or warden instead which i can do as a vamp four or with invis pots but not with a skill. And yes it is not LIVE yet, but to even consider making these CORE changes to a class makes me feel like ZoS has lost sight of us, the customers. Countless businesses have lost sight of this and went down the drain.
It's not that the fun will be gone, it just makes us all wonder what other CORE changes are coming to other classes on a ten year old game. Anyone who vendors can tell you sales have sharply dropped which most likely means the number of players have dropped and continue to do so. The change is not going to ENTICE anyone to start playing the game but it WILL drive some way, myself included. I'm not about to start making an alternate toon my favourite only to have a core ability sharply changed after time invested after this one was.
If it goes live, my trust in the devs will be lost to the point where it's time to move to newer pastures. I don't say that lightly. I've played this game for eight years. Trust is a big thing.
Edited by Veinblood1965 on 19 September 2024 18:006 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭The fun will remain, and nothing will change for the most part, it will just be a little harder to go invisible (which has long been required)
It wont be harder to GO invisible, but perma invisibility wont be a thing unless you build for it.
If someone wants to play the gnat playstyle of sitting in stealth for minutes at a time before attacking once, atleast they will now have to build into perma stealth.
I can't agree with "toggle is the worst thing ever" considering it should be auto canceling the toggle on practically every action you do. If anything it is better in lag since you can be certain to remain cloaked in dire situations, and maybe accidentally get charged an extra tick in non dire situations if there happens to be a lag spike of more than 2s.(rarely now adays)0 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Most people tend to focus on the Cloak cost increase and I do admit - this is a hefty nerf (imho too hefty) and as many people mentioned, the result will be the opposite of the ZOS goal. They want to make perma-cloak impossible or close to impossible, while at the same time making cloak more accessible for all NB builds. And with increased cost, majority of the builds wont be able to sustain it for any useful duration, aside from heavy focused magicka builds that will feel the nerf too, but they still will be able to keep it up for long duration.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I respect your opinion and I have no doubt you have much much more experience on NBs.
I still think such a change will affect ranged players also, since they cloack whenever you survive the attack and go in their direction. It will make it harder to flee and even worst to come back and fire by the back.
It will probable affect every NB in some way and degree tbh.
Besides, if taking into account siphoning/equilibrium combo, any build will be able to sustain cloak longer, but again - it is in the opposite of the ZOS goal, as they want to make cloak easier to use, but the reality is it will be harder to use:
- Live: Press a button every 3 seconds, without spamming, average build can use cloak for a duration that will make it useful.
- PTS: Activate cloak "on" and press other button every 2 seconds and optionally other button if you are low on health (Rally). Once you are done, disable cloak.
^ All decent NB players will do it and I don't see how ZOS can "patch" something like this. They would have to outright "block" every magicka gain, from potion or set like Darloc and that would be too big of a nerf even for ZOS standards & would require to much work & hassle (and would pretty much destroy the class btw).
Now, some people mentioned that since cloak will be a toggle, when it comes to PvP, it will be possible to have it on other bar and on your main bar you can have all of the skills required for burst combo. So "ganking" will be actually easier - especially ranged ganking. But as you mentioned - if something goes wrong, escaping will be harder than vs now on live server (especially melee, but ranged will be also affected in a minimal way). I actually suspect that next patch, we may see more players switching to ranged ganking or bombing, since it will be easiest play-style for NB.
Now, the reason why I said that it will affect NB "but not in the way everyone is thinking about" is because cloak will be a toggle. And you might be thinking: That is better. That is more convenient. More smooth. And in a "laboratory environment", in a vacuum, without any "live" aspects of the game - indeed - you would be right. But in real live server environment, with lag and other player, realistically - it will be much worse vs cast-able cloak.
Think about it. Cloak was designed since day 1 to be a cast-able skill. It operated that way for over 10 years. Everything in the game that interacts with stealth & invisibility, every mechanic, every system, every skill is coded & tuned with "cast-able" cloak in mind. Cloak was never ever meant to be a toggle or a stance you switch to. And now, all of the sudden it will be - and trust me on that - it will cause whole mountain of issue.
One of such issue can already be seen on PTS. Since Detection Potions do interact with stealth & invisibility and were designed & tuned to work on "cast-able" cloak - right now, on PTS those potion bug-out cloak interrupting it, but only partially. The other half of the cloak still works & is toggled "on", so you don't have mag recovery and magicka is still being drained & goes into limbo. And that is because detection skills were never ever supposed to counter "toggle-able" cloak. They don't have that coded. Those things are coded in a simple way to simply cancel invisibility & there is no code that will "toggle off" cloak - since cloak was always duration based skill.
The other issue is typical PvP or just laggy environment. What very often happens on live server is that due to a lag, server delays, server not registering something or registering it too late, even something like Bow LA may interrupt cloak. It should not - but it happens. That is why NBs tend to initially "spam cloak" 2 or 3 times, to force server to register their status as cloaked/invisible. It is something NBs should not be forced to do, but they have to in order to play at all in laggy environment (which PvP it is more or less 24/7).
Guess what is going to happen when cloak will become a toggle ? All of the sudden it will be extremely hyper unreliable. It will be basically a "toss of a coin" if it works or not. Toggle skills & lag do not go along well. Having a core skill that is basically "RNG" if it works or not is what I fear the most. It is like having Vigor or Shileds that "may" work, but it is RNG.
Players can & will adapt to the cost increase... but how can you adapt to a buggy & unreliable skill that sometimes will work & sometimes won't ? The only way to "adapt" to something like this is to not use it, but at this point you might as well roll different class.
The detect issue is a massive oversight that should have been tested prior, but you are talking like this cant be fixed. It was a clear oversight that is a simple straightforward fix. >> I am detected = untoggle cloak
The toggle activation will function no different from current cloak activation. Spamming as the server slows down is counter intuitive for any skill. You should be slowing down your inputs to match the server speed. Your input buffering basically gets disabled under server lag and you are better off slowly pressing inputs one after the other. Honestly the toggle may teach players to stop spamming buttons 30x a GCD when it is unnecessary.
Bow LA, or any form of outgoing attack in cloak should remove invis, not sure why it should operate otherwise? Unless you mean incoming LA pulling out of invis. Again these are anomalies regardless of the toggle change and should be investigated and addressed on their own.
The DEV note also says they are using this to continue to work on nb in the future, so it sure sounds like they have not locked this change in.0 -
GuuMoonRyoung✭✭✭✭Once again, an ability has been butchered for PvE solely because of its usage in PvP. Why do this? Why can you not make it work differently in PvP instances? PvP is already an instanced activity in this game, Cyro, IC, BGs, all of them, you can literally make any abilities work differently in PvP and PvE if you wanted. Why do you always go for complete desctruction ZOS?1
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MincMincMinc✭✭✭GuuMoonRyoung wrote: »Once again, an ability has been butchered for PvE solely because of its usage in PvP. Why do this? Why can you not make it work differently in PvP instances? PvP is already an instanced activity in this game, Cyro, IC, BGs, all of them, you can literally make any abilities work differently in PvP and PvE if you wanted. Why do you always go for complete desctruction ZOS?
Can you elaborate how this affects pve? I think if you were to sit back and perma cloak during a raid/dungeon, others may not be too happy with you.3 -
Muizer✭✭✭✭✭
✭MincMincMinc wrote: »The toggle activation will function no different from current cloak activation. Spamming as the server slows down is counter intuitive for any skill. You should be slowing down your inputs to match the server speed. Your input buffering basically gets disabled under server lag and you are better off slowly pressing inputs one after the other. Honestly the toggle may teach players to stop spamming buttons 30x a GCD when it is unnecessary.
I have to say I'm quite worried about the toggle.Do we have any guarantee that I can implicitly trust that the state I see on my screen is the one that will be toggled? That it is impossible that due to latency I see myself as cloaked even though the server has decided I no longer am? Because if that were possible, activating cloak would be toggling it in the opposite direction of what I'm intending. That would not be a mere nerf. That would mean breaking the skill in laggy conditions where it is currently mostly working.
Please stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »The toggle activation will function no different from current cloak activation. Spamming as the server slows down is counter intuitive for any skill. You should be slowing down your inputs to match the server speed. Your input buffering basically gets disabled under server lag and you are better off slowly pressing inputs one after the other. Honestly the toggle may teach players to stop spamming buttons 30x a GCD when it is unnecessary.
I have to say I'm quite worried about the toggle.Do we have any guarantee that I can implicitly trust that the state I see on my screen is the one that will be toggled? That it is impossible that due to latency I see myself as cloaked even though the server has decided I no longer am? Because if that were possible, activating cloak would be toggling it in the opposite direction of what I'm intending. That would not be a mere nerf. That would mean breaking the skill in laggy conditions where it is currently mostly working.
Replication wise you would only be able to see yourself as cloaked if the server said you could cloak. These calcs are done on the server first before your client can continue. The only aspects of the game that would be driven clientside are your general locomotion, block, sprint, roll, light and heavy attack(this is why there are desyncs with light>medium attacks because the client says you hit with a light attack, but the server had a 0.001s delay and thought a medium attack happened.
If you need help knowing whether you are cloaked, there are plenty of addons to track it.
Lag in the past half year is hardly as bad as it was years ago. Designing functionality around 1% of pvp gameplay under a maybe scenario on spam players for the rest of the game is not a solid plan.
EDIT: Have you logged in pts and tried it yet? Functionally it feels great for weaving and for short stealth stints it saves you from recast overlap/bar swap issues. It is much less tedious/clunky to backbar.Edited by MincMincMinc on 20 September 2024 01:160 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I remember a really long thread asking for a ramping cost on Cloak when ZOS gave Major Savagery to it. If only the NB mains had agreed to compromise instead of mindlessly defending against nerfing their beloved crutch, ZOS might have done something less severe than this lol. Oh well, I dislike NB gankers so I will rejoice with this one.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc7 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »I remember a really long thread asking for a ramping cost on Cloak when ZOS gave Major Savagery to it. If only the NB mains had agreed to compromise instead of mindlessly defending against nerfing their beloved crutch, ZOS might have done something less severe than this lol. Oh well, I dislike NB gankers so I will rejoice with this one.
Funny that. Makes one smile and think for sure.
🤔🤔🤔
Just goes to show, karma works in mysterious ways, but it does eventually catch up to everyone, even cloaking NBs.1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
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Tbh. Ramping cost would have been far worse, as cloak is not a mobility/displacement tool.StaticWave wrote: »I remember a really long thread asking for a ramping cost on Cloak when ZOS gave Major Savagery to it. If only the NB mains had agreed to compromise instead of mindlessly defending against nerfing their beloved crutch, ZOS might have done something less severe than this lol. Oh well, I dislike NB gankers so I will rejoice with this one.2 -
bladenick✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Tbh. Ramping cost would have been far worse, as cloak is not a mobility/displacement tool.StaticWave wrote: »I remember a really long thread asking for a ramping cost on Cloak when ZOS gave Major Savagery to it. If only the NB mains had agreed to compromise instead of mindlessly defending against nerfing their beloved crutch, ZOS might have done something less severe than this lol. Oh well, I dislike NB gankers so I will rejoice with this one.
I suppose this change just for new 2 side BG, the game mechanism not fit for perm cloak, the dev what ever need change NB play style to fit this new 2 side BG
maybe it will take ZOS another 2 year to re-shape playstyle of NB and make it playable again0 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
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So much this!Veinblood1965 wrote: »I think many of you are missing the point. It's a core change to a class. It's the one used most often by non-tank nb's in PVP. Rather like making major changes to streak, or jabs or the famed beam. It's not that it might not still be usable but why play the class after this change if that's why you chose it in the first place. Stealth is fun, it's WHY people play the class. If I didn't want to stealth out I'd play my sorc or arcanist or warden instead which i can do as a vamp four or with invis pots but not with a skill. And yes it is not LIVE yet, but to even consider making these CORE changes to a class makes me feel like ZoS has lost sight of us, the customers. Countless businesses have lost sight of this and went down the drain.
It's not that the fun will be gone, it just makes us all wonder what other CORE changes are coming to other classes on a ten year old game. Anyone who vendors can tell you sales have sharply dropped which most likely means the number of players have dropped and continue to do so. The change is not going to ENTICE anyone to start playing the game but it WILL drive some way, myself included. I'm not about to start making an alternate toon my favourite only to have a core ability sharply changed after time invested after this one was.
If it goes live, my trust in the devs will be lost to the point where it's time to move to newer pastures. I don't say that lightly. I've played this game for eight years. Trust is a big thing.PC EU: Magblade (PvP main), DK (PvE Tank), Sorc (PvP and PvE), Magden (PvE Healer), Magplar (PvP and PvE DD), Arcanist (PvE DD)
PC NA: Magblade (PvP and PvE every role)2 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
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Is this the case? I haven't been to the PTS. Can you or anyone confirm, who's been there?MincMincMinc wrote: »I can't agree with "toggle is the worst thing ever" considering it should be auto canceling the toggle on practically every action you do.
Starting with the tangent that most likely prompted you to talk about this, I've read that detection potions don't cancel Cloak on the PTS. Is this true? In response to other posts, not this one, this is IMO normal and I don't have an issue with it. Detection potions do not uncloak you on live either. Only the player running the potion can see you, not others. You do not get the blue orb above you. You are not prevented from continuing to use Shadowy Disguise on live and that still hides you from NPCs and other players. The only way other players also know you're there is by how their faction mate, the guy running the detection potion or Sentry set, acts, and due to them attacking you with direct damage and, thereby and only then, uncloaking you. You need experience to recognise and deal with this situation, otherwise you will waste magicka in continuing to cloak. This already happens on live. It is insidious, but is IMO simply a skill aspect to the cloaking NB. It sounds still more insidious on the PTS, but it also sounds fundamentally the same.
However, can anyone confirm that cloak is automatically broken and the magicka drain stopped when:- You attack someone with direct damage.
- You get attacked with direct damage.
- You get detected with a detection skill, or by an NPC, that puts the blue orb above your head.
- You cast skills, notably most heals, that currently uncloak you.
I'm a perma-cloaking magblade main in PvP, by the way. That said, I'm neither a bow player, nor an outright ganker stacking all damage, nor the most capable brawler. I run a compromise, long-term, build that suits my muscle memory, a build I can inhabit, a jack of all trades for all of open world. A single build that I simply find enjoyable to play.
I can't say I'm happy about this change. I will either have to give up my playstyle or am shoehorned into specific sets, skills, and/or the 2H weapon type. This isn't entirely new. In the distant past playing 2H / resto was mandatory for my playstyle. Since then it opened up to better flexibility. This would be a regression.
Ultimately, however, it comes down to playability issues above all else for me. I care about Cloak sustain, but I care about how Cloak (Shadowy Disguise) plays even more. If it's a toggle you have to manually manage at all times, then that will likely be the straw that breaks the camel's back for me.
Also, can someone who's been to the PTS tell what happens when you single-bar Shadowy Disguise? Does it break Cloak and cancel the magicka drain on bar swap? Does it simply suspend Cloak while you are on the other bar, and automatically re-engage once you swap back to the Cloak bar? Or does Cloak simply remain active on both bars, once it's toggled on while single-barred? I assume it's not the second option, because that would be a major GCD saver and possibly a buff. The first option would IMO be fine. Either that or all the other actions that should cancel Cloak, mentioned above, would be fine. They would all be better than the devil of a magicka drain, if the only way of turning it off was manual.PC EU: Magblade (PvP main), DK (PvE Tank), Sorc (PvP and PvE), Magden (PvE Healer), Magplar (PvP and PvE DD), Arcanist (PvE DD)
PC NA: Magblade (PvP and PvE every role)0 -
Muizer✭✭✭✭✭
✭MincMincMinc wrote: »Replication wise you would only be able to see yourself as cloaked if the server said you could cloak. These calcs are done on the server first before your client can continue. The only aspects of the game that would be driven clientside are your general locomotion, block, sprint, roll, light and heavy attack(this is why there are desyncs with light>medium attacks because the client says you hit with a light attack, but the server had a 0.001s delay and thought a medium attack happened.
I don't think that's the scenario I mentioned though? Where something has pulled you out of cloak, but your client has not yet been updated to reflect it.MincMincMinc wrote: »If you need help knowing whether you are cloaked, there are plenty of addons to track it.
That thought has occurred to me. That now I will need an add-on to track it. So much for making the skill more accessible.MincMincMinc wrote: »Designing functionality around 1% of pvp gameplay under a maybe scenario on spam players for the rest of the game is not a solid plan.
I'm not sure this will only affect PvP. But apart from that, making button presses idempotent or as close to it as possible would seem to be a very important consideration when latency is involved. So yeah where toggle changes are concerned, the client should be leading and it should communicate "set toggle to 0" or "set toggle to 1". But I'm not sure that is how toggles are implemented in ESO. If they send "set toggle to opposite of current" that's evidently not lag proof.MincMincMinc wrote: »EDIT: Have you logged in pts and tried it yet? Functionally it feels great for weaving and for short stealth stints it saves you from recast overlap/bar swap issues. It is much less tedious/clunky to backbar.
I've only tried it under 'light load' PvE situations, where it may be fractionally easier to handle. For heavy load I'll have to wait until I can try it on the copy of my fully leveled character.
Please stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!0 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.
Thank you for your understanding.2 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭
Is this the case? I haven't been to the PTS. Can you or anyone confirm, who's been there?MincMincMinc wrote: »I can't agree with "toggle is the worst thing ever" considering it should be auto canceling the toggle on practically every action you do.
Starting with the tangent that most likely prompted you to talk about this, I've read that detection potions don't cancel Cloak on the PTS. Is this true? In response to other posts, not this one, this is IMO normal and I don't have an issue with it. Detection potions do not uncloak you on live either. Only the player running the potion can see you, not others. You do not get the blue orb above you. You are not prevented from continuing to use Shadowy Disguise on live and that still hides you from NPCs and other players. The only way other players also know you're there is by how their faction mate, the guy running the detection potion or Sentry set, acts, and due to them attacking you with direct damage and, thereby and only then, uncloaking you. You need experience to recognise and deal with this situation, otherwise you will waste magicka in continuing to cloak. This already happens on live. It is insidious, but is IMO simply a skill aspect to the cloaking NB. It sounds still more insidious on the PTS, but it also sounds fundamentally the same.
However, can anyone confirm that cloak is automatically broken and the magicka drain stopped when:- You attack someone with direct damage.
- You get attacked with direct damage.
- You get detected with a detection skill, or by an NPC, that puts the blue orb above your head.
- You cast skills, notably most heals, that currently uncloak you.
I'm a perma-cloaking magblade main in PvP, by the way. That said, I'm neither a bow player, nor an outright ganker stacking all damage, nor the most capable brawler. I run a compromise, long-term, build that suits my muscle memory, a build I can inhabit, a jack of all trades for all of open world. A single build that I simply find enjoyable to play.
I can't say I'm happy about this change. I will either have to give up my playstyle or am shoehorned into specific sets, skills, and/or the 2H weapon type. This isn't entirely new. In the distant past playing 2H / resto was mandatory for my playstyle. Since then it opened up to better flexibility. This would be a regression.
Ultimately, however, it comes down to playability issues above all else for me. I care about Cloak sustain, but I care about how Cloak (Shadowy Disguise) plays even more. If it's a toggle you have to manually manage at all times, then that will likely be the straw that breaks the camel's back for me.
Also, can someone who's been to the PTS tell what happens when you single-bar Shadowy Disguise? Does it break Cloak and cancel the magicka drain on bar swap? Does it simply suspend Cloak while you are on the other bar, and automatically re-engage once you swap back to the Cloak bar? Or does Cloak simply remain active on both bars, once it's toggled on while single-barred? I assume it's not the second option, because that would be a major GCD saver and possibly a buff. The first option would IMO be fine. Either that or all the other actions that should cancel Cloak, mentioned above, would be fine. They would all be better than the devil of a magicka drain, if the only way of turning it off was manual.
Yes the toggle auto cancels, it requires next to no thought after the insta cast toggle. Basically imagine if current cloak just auto recast itself until you told it to stop or decloaked using skills that decloak you. I feel alot of these complain comments and even content creators on youtube vids are making arguments without even downloading pts.....for some reason that isnt a requirement to participate on the pts forum.
Overload isnt a good comparison cuz it is a clunky force timed animation that crudely takes up a gcd to activate. Guard is really the only other toggle somewhat close, but that is only clunky because of your friend keeps running away und uncasting. Please just go try it. Judge it on 3 categories: Does the toggle feel fine in weaving for burst? How does the cost per tick feel? How unreliable is the mag cut with regen tick timing?
I see no way that this would shoehorn you into a certain playstyle. You will still be able to cloak for 10s+ when needed. Plenty of people already came out with Ytube vids showing you how to perma stealth. If you dont like those, use Vamp sprint stealth. Or learn to swap between cloak and crouch. If pelican can invis gank through zergs on a sorc, I am sure nbs can deal with a toggle that keeps the skill active on you without recast issues. The closest change to this mag cut cloak would be the streak ramping cost change. Sorcs used to be able to streak infinitely back in the day. Some wouldnt even mount between keeps because it was faster.
I've lost my entire build identity hundreds of times, but still can rebuild and find the same stamsorc playstyle from 8 years ago just fine. Granted warden is just a better stamsorc now adays, (more speed, more damage, more heals, more buffs) but that's for another rant.4
