Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:



Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:



Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.

So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.

that actually looks like a pretty low tooltip for heal soul, especially if you are at 6k+ weapon damage and 30k stam, it should be much closer to 15k at those numbers, which is roughly where mine tooltips (15k is also roughly where offering tooltips for on my NB that also gets 17k+ actual heals when offering crits).

Wasn't with keep buff

Keep buff isn't the cause of your low tooltip, I've checked mine and its still 15k+ without the keep buff

Galeriano2

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:



Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:



Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.

So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.

that actually looks like a pretty low tooltip for heal soul, especially if you are at 6k+ weapon damage and 30k stam, it should be much closer to 15k at those numbers, which is roughly where mine tooltips (15k is also roughly where offering tooltips for on my NB that also gets 17k+ actual heals when offering crits).

Wasn't with keep buff

Keep buff isn't the cause of your low tooltip, I've checked mine and its still 15k+ without the keep buff

Yep. The only thing I could imagine would cause that difference would be either having 6k wep dmg fully buffed but making screenshot unbuffed, having 6k wep dmg on front bar while making a screenshot on back bar or making both mistakes at the same time.

Turtle_Bot

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:



Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:



Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.

So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.

that actually looks like a pretty low tooltip for heal soul, especially if you are at 6k+ weapon damage and 30k stam, it should be much closer to 15k at those numbers, which is roughly where mine tooltips (15k is also roughly where offering tooltips for on my NB that also gets 17k+ actual heals when offering crits).

Wasn't with keep buff

Keep buff isn't the cause of your low tooltip, I've checked mine and its still 15k+ without the keep buff

Yep. The only thing I could imagine would cause that difference would be either having 6k wep dmg fully buffed but making screenshot unbuffed, having 6k wep dmg on front bar while making a screenshot on back bar or making both mistakes at the same time.

Unbuffed tooltip seems most likely. The difference between his and our tooltips is like 20%+ (20% of 12.5k is 2.5k which would give 15k total matching your PTS tooltip).

StaticWave

@Turtle_Bot

Buff probably fell off so I took a screenshot via Superstar instead:



14.5k tooltip. With Major Vitality, it heals for 7.8k non crit and 12.5k crit in PvP for me.

When non crit, my Ward heals me for 3.4k and provides a 12.2k shield. When crit, it heals me for 5.5k and still provides a 12.2k shield. No Major Vitality btw.

Yea that 12.5k crit looks really cool and all but when you're banking your survivability off an RNG crit, it doesn't seem that appealing compared to a 12.2k shield and a 3.4k heal. Oh let's not mention the fact that Jerall completely screws over that 12.5k heal while the shield is unaffected.

StaticWave

Do you wanna know the value of Ward when I have Major Vitality?



13.4k shield, 3.8k heal non crit, 6k heal crit.

I've used both Ward and Healing Soul. If I had to choose, I'd choose the shield every single day of the week.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot

Buff probably fell off so I took a screenshot via Superstar instead:



14.5k tooltip. With Major Vitality, it heals for 7.8k non crit and 12.5k crit in PvP for me.

When non crit, my Ward heals me for 3.4k and provides a 12.2k shield. When crit, it heals me for 5.5k and still provides a 12.2k shield. No Major Vitality btw.

Yea that 12.5k crit looks really cool and all but when you're banking your survivability off an RNG crit, it doesn't seem that appealing compared to a 12.2k shield and a 3.4k heal. Oh let's not mention the fact that Jerall completely screws over that 12.5k heal while the shield is unaffected.

14.5k looks better, still slightly low, but makes more sense now. DDF will likely bring that tooltip up to our 15k+.

If we're going to bring up niche counters (Jerall is strong, but super niche), trample has the dispel option to completely remove a shield, no matter the size, from an enemy (not reduce by up to 35% that takes nearly 20 seconds to reach full potential, not reduce by 5k or 8k, just flat out deletes it entirely and instantly if hit by the ability).

TBH, I'm surprised more people aren't using trample alongside other things against organized groups. it has some nasty combinations such as the following:

It's best used in keep battles where there are natural funnels to assist it, but it is stupidly strong and slept on in it's niche.


Here's the thing.
Shields and healing have their upsides and downsides. We can throw numbers back and forth all day long, but the fact of the matter is that wards (on their own, with no other effects/utility/heals) just don't match up to how strong heals have become. Wards and heals just aren't a flat 1:1 comparison due to how many mechanical differences there are between the 2 defensive mechanics.

The previous paragraph isn't to say current ward is fine, it's not. it's to say that comparing shields to heals with equal values will never be a fair comparison. heals just inherently have too many mechanical advantages over shields of the same size for it to be a fair comparison (it's why shield sizes on strong ward abilities have always had massive values compared to heal abilities).

Turtle_Bot

When it comes to using a burst heal vs using ward, I actually want to use heal-soul. The reason I am not, isn't because of how strong ward is (my build only has a 13k total ward value, heal + shield, but I still use it over heal soul), the reasons is use ward instead are:
1. heal soul has reliability issues (due to its targeting being radius and not a frontal cone).
2. it forces me to give up shocking soul as my spammable that I am really enjoying.
My build and playstyle actually prefers a burst heal over ward, but I just cannot fit one in because I lose too much of my build that I can't get back through other abilities.
If ZOS gave us shock damage on shield throw (costing mag), I would very quickly run that instead of shocking soul and run healing soul instead of ward. That frees up inner light from my bar, giving me a bar slot and letting me play around with some interesting builds such as:



missing slots would be shield throw (shock damage, class script, prophecy/savagery) and heal soul (heal, resource return and vitality, with fury being a complete flex spot for anything I want to try.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot

Buff probably fell off so I took a screenshot via Superstar instead:



14.5k tooltip. With Major Vitality, it heals for 7.8k non crit and 12.5k crit in PvP for me.

When non crit, my Ward heals me for 3.4k and provides a 12.2k shield. When crit, it heals me for 5.5k and still provides a 12.2k shield. No Major Vitality btw.

Yea that 12.5k crit looks really cool and all but when you're banking your survivability off an RNG crit, it doesn't seem that appealing compared to a 12.2k shield and a 3.4k heal. Oh let's not mention the fact that Jerall completely screws over that 12.5k heal while the shield is unaffected.

14.5k looks better, still slightly low, but makes more sense now. DDF will likely bring that tooltip up to our 15k+.

If we're going to bring up niche counters (Jerall is strong, but super niche), trample has the dispel option to completely remove a shield, no matter the size, from an enemy (not reduce by up to 35% that takes nearly 20 seconds to reach full potential, not reduce by 5k or 8k, just flat out deletes it entirely and instantly if hit by the ability).

TBH, I'm surprised more people aren't using trample alongside other things against organized groups. it has some nasty combinations such as the following:

It's best used in keep battles where there are natural funnels to assist it, but it is stupidly strong and slept on in it's niche.


Here's the thing.
Shields and healing have their upsides and downsides. We can throw numbers back and forth all day long, but the fact of the matter is that wards (on their own, with no other effects/utility/heals) just don't match up to how strong heals have become. Wards and heals just aren't a flat 1:1 comparison due to how many mechanical differences there are between the 2 defensive mechanics.

The previous paragraph isn't to say current ward is fine, it's not. it's to say that comparing shields to heals with equal values will never be a fair comparison. heals just inherently have too many mechanical advantages over shields of the same size for it to be a fair comparison (it's why shield sizes on strong ward abilities have always had massive values compared to heal abilities).

That was with DDF. 30k stam and 6.2k weapon damage without Focused Mending CP.

Trample isn't going to hit a fast moving Sorc, let's be real now. Comparing a meme skill like Trample to Jerall is not fair.

I know the strengths and weakness of both Ward and burst heals. I'm simply stating a truth that magsorcs are too tanky for how much they invest into damage. Classes with over-the-top healing are also problematic and that's a truth as well. Both truths can exist at the same time and should not diminish each other's influence on the meta.

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

If we're going to bring up niche counters

Silliness of Trample aside: let's not turn Sorc into another NB where you need to play an alternate version of the game with different skills and potions just to deal with one busted mechanic.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot

Buff probably fell off so I took a screenshot via Superstar instead:



14.5k tooltip. With Major Vitality, it heals for 7.8k non crit and 12.5k crit in PvP for me.

When non crit, my Ward heals me for 3.4k and provides a 12.2k shield. When crit, it heals me for 5.5k and still provides a 12.2k shield. No Major Vitality btw.

Yea that 12.5k crit looks really cool and all but when you're banking your survivability off an RNG crit, it doesn't seem that appealing compared to a 12.2k shield and a 3.4k heal. Oh let's not mention the fact that Jerall completely screws over that 12.5k heal while the shield is unaffected.

14.5k looks better, still slightly low, but makes more sense now. DDF will likely bring that tooltip up to our 15k+.

If we're going to bring up niche counters (Jerall is strong, but super niche), trample has the dispel option to completely remove a shield, no matter the size, from an enemy (not reduce by up to 35% that takes nearly 20 seconds to reach full potential, not reduce by 5k or 8k, just flat out deletes it entirely and instantly if hit by the ability).

TBH, I'm surprised more people aren't using trample alongside other things against organized groups. it has some nasty combinations such as the following:

It's best used in keep battles where there are natural funnels to assist it, but it is stupidly strong and slept on in it's niche.


Here's the thing.
Shields and healing have their upsides and downsides. We can throw numbers back and forth all day long, but the fact of the matter is that wards (on their own, with no other effects/utility/heals) just don't match up to how strong heals have become. Wards and heals just aren't a flat 1:1 comparison due to how many mechanical differences there are between the 2 defensive mechanics.

The previous paragraph isn't to say current ward is fine, it's not. it's to say that comparing shields to heals with equal values will never be a fair comparison. heals just inherently have too many mechanical advantages over shields of the same size for it to be a fair comparison (it's why shield sizes on strong ward abilities have always had massive values compared to heal abilities).

That was with DDF. 30k stam and 6.2k weapon damage without Focused Mending CP.

Trample isn't going to hit a fast moving Sorc, let's be real now. Comparing a meme skill like Trample to Jerall is not fair.

I know the strengths and weakness of both Ward and burst heals. I'm simply stating a truth that magsorcs are too tanky for how much they invest into damage. Classes with over-the-top healing are also problematic and that's a truth as well. Both truths can exist at the same time and should not diminish each other's influence on the meta.

hmmm, sub 15k tooltip with DDF full seems a little low still (especially if not using ward with it), but at least it's not super low like before.

Out in open field, yeah, there's no shot trample hits a sorc that's keeping properly mobile, hence why I said it was a niche skill for keep fights that enforce those funnels.

Not arguing against that, since I agree they are too tanky right now (as are NB and polar wardens). Yep, I'm hoping ZOS looks at healing (and shielding) across the board.
- Ward is too bursty with its heal being a burst heal and not a HoT
- Offering has no business being so cheap for how strong it is and how many modifiers NB has access to, to scale it higher
- Polar needs adjusting, either cap it (while battle spirit is active) or make it a self heal only
- Coag needs its power shifted slightly, stronger base heal, but lower "execute scaling"
- Runeward is only not complained about because arcs dps is not suited to PvP, that ability is on par with hardened when looking in a vacuum though
- HtD needs some additional utility. its a good heal, just lacks the utility of heal soul
- resistant flesh needs its self defile removed. it was a cute idea thematically and was fine before, but there are too many debuffs flying around for that to be required to proc the passive reliably.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot

Buff probably fell off so I took a screenshot via Superstar instead:



14.5k tooltip. With Major Vitality, it heals for 7.8k non crit and 12.5k crit in PvP for me.

When non crit, my Ward heals me for 3.4k and provides a 12.2k shield. When crit, it heals me for 5.5k and still provides a 12.2k shield. No Major Vitality btw.

Yea that 12.5k crit looks really cool and all but when you're banking your survivability off an RNG crit, it doesn't seem that appealing compared to a 12.2k shield and a 3.4k heal. Oh let's not mention the fact that Jerall completely screws over that 12.5k heal while the shield is unaffected.

14.5k looks better, still slightly low, but makes more sense now. DDF will likely bring that tooltip up to our 15k+.

If we're going to bring up niche counters (Jerall is strong, but super niche), trample has the dispel option to completely remove a shield, no matter the size, from an enemy (not reduce by up to 35% that takes nearly 20 seconds to reach full potential, not reduce by 5k or 8k, just flat out deletes it entirely and instantly if hit by the ability).

TBH, I'm surprised more people aren't using trample alongside other things against organized groups. it has some nasty combinations such as the following:

It's best used in keep battles where there are natural funnels to assist it, but it is stupidly strong and slept on in it's niche.


Here's the thing.
Shields and healing have their upsides and downsides. We can throw numbers back and forth all day long, but the fact of the matter is that wards (on their own, with no other effects/utility/heals) just don't match up to how strong heals have become. Wards and heals just aren't a flat 1:1 comparison due to how many mechanical differences there are between the 2 defensive mechanics.

The previous paragraph isn't to say current ward is fine, it's not. it's to say that comparing shields to heals with equal values will never be a fair comparison. heals just inherently have too many mechanical advantages over shields of the same size for it to be a fair comparison (it's why shield sizes on strong ward abilities have always had massive values compared to heal abilities).

That was with DDF. 30k stam and 6.2k weapon damage without Focused Mending CP.

Trample isn't going to hit a fast moving Sorc, let's be real now. Comparing a meme skill like Trample to Jerall is not fair.

I know the strengths and weakness of both Ward and burst heals. I'm simply stating a truth that magsorcs are too tanky for how much they invest into damage. Classes with over-the-top healing are also problematic and that's a truth as well. Both truths can exist at the same time and should not diminish each other's influence on the meta.

hmmm, sub 15k tooltip with DDF full seems a little low still (especially if not using ward with it), but at least it's not super low like before.

Out in open field, yeah, there's no shot trample hits a sorc that's keeping properly mobile, hence why I said it was a niche skill for keep fights that enforce those funnels.

Not arguing against that, since I agree they are too tanky right now (as are NB and polar wardens). Yep, I'm hoping ZOS looks at healing (and shielding) across the board.
- Ward is too bursty with its heal being a burst heal and not a HoT
- Offering has no business being so cheap for how strong it is and how many modifiers NB has access to, to scale it higher
- Polar needs adjusting, either cap it (while battle spirit is active) or make it a self heal only
- Coag needs its power shifted slightly, stronger base heal, but lower "execute scaling"
- Runeward is only not complained about because arcs dps is not suited to PvP, that ability is on par with hardened when looking in a vacuum though
- HtD needs some additional utility. its a good heal, just lacks the utility of heal soul
- resistant flesh needs its self defile removed. it was a cute idea thematically and was fine before, but there are too many debuffs flying around for that to be required to proc the passive reliably.

You can literally see that in the super star screenshot I took. 30k stam and 6.2k spell damage gave me 14.5k Healing Soul. If anything, healing skills are more accurate on Sorc since it doesn’t have % amplifiers.

It’s probably lower than expected because NB gets Minor Mending on Healthy Offering and healing done when slotting a Siphoning skill.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:



Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:



Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.

So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.

As I've said before Ward needs attention at the higher end I'll agree but how are we comparing the healing strength of two skills directly when they have different function aspects?

A heal that can target other players, returns resources, and grants a further healing buff would have a lower tooltip than a heal/defensive skills that can only be applied to yourself.

Turn that around and say if ward had a total tooltip including the heal that matched in total healing soul but healing soul did the other t two things and could target a friendly would that make sense?

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot

Buff probably fell off so I took a screenshot via Superstar instead:



14.5k tooltip. With Major Vitality, it heals for 7.8k non crit and 12.5k crit in PvP for me.

When non crit, my Ward heals me for 3.4k and provides a 12.2k shield. When crit, it heals me for 5.5k and still provides a 12.2k shield. No Major Vitality btw.

Yea that 12.5k crit looks really cool and all but when you're banking your survivability off an RNG crit, it doesn't seem that appealing compared to a 12.2k shield and a 3.4k heal. Oh let's not mention the fact that Jerall completely screws over that 12.5k heal while the shield is unaffected.

14.5k looks better, still slightly low, but makes more sense now. DDF will likely bring that tooltip up to our 15k+.

If we're going to bring up niche counters (Jerall is strong, but super niche), trample has the dispel option to completely remove a shield, no matter the size, from an enemy (not reduce by up to 35% that takes nearly 20 seconds to reach full potential, not reduce by 5k or 8k, just flat out deletes it entirely and instantly if hit by the ability).

TBH, I'm surprised more people aren't using trample alongside other things against organized groups. it has some nasty combinations such as the following:

It's best used in keep battles where there are natural funnels to assist it, but it is stupidly strong and slept on in it's niche.


Here's the thing.
Shields and healing have their upsides and downsides. We can throw numbers back and forth all day long, but the fact of the matter is that wards (on their own, with no other effects/utility/heals) just don't match up to how strong heals have become. Wards and heals just aren't a flat 1:1 comparison due to how many mechanical differences there are between the 2 defensive mechanics.

The previous paragraph isn't to say current ward is fine, it's not. it's to say that comparing shields to heals with equal values will never be a fair comparison. heals just inherently have too many mechanical advantages over shields of the same size for it to be a fair comparison (it's why shield sizes on strong ward abilities have always had massive values compared to heal abilities).

That was with DDF. 30k stam and 6.2k weapon damage without Focused Mending CP.

Trample isn't going to hit a fast moving Sorc, let's be real now. Comparing a meme skill like Trample to Jerall is not fair.

I know the strengths and weakness of both Ward and burst heals. I'm simply stating a truth that magsorcs are too tanky for how much they invest into damage. Classes with over-the-top healing are also problematic and that's a truth as well. Both truths can exist at the same time and should not diminish each other's influence on the meta.

hmmm, sub 15k tooltip with DDF full seems a little low still (especially if not using ward with it), but at least it's not super low like before.

Out in open field, yeah, there's no shot trample hits a sorc that's keeping properly mobile, hence why I said it was a niche skill for keep fights that enforce those funnels.

Not arguing against that, since I agree they are too tanky right now (as are NB and polar wardens). Yep, I'm hoping ZOS looks at healing (and shielding) across the board.
- Ward is too bursty with its heal being a burst heal and not a HoT
- Offering has no business being so cheap for how strong it is and how many modifiers NB has access to, to scale it higher
- Polar needs adjusting, either cap it (while battle spirit is active) or make it a self heal only
- Coag needs its power shifted slightly, stronger base heal, but lower "execute scaling"
- Runeward is only not complained about because arcs dps is not suited to PvP, that ability is on par with hardened when looking in a vacuum though
- HtD needs some additional utility. its a good heal, just lacks the utility of heal soul
- resistant flesh needs its self defile removed. it was a cute idea thematically and was fine before, but there are too many debuffs flying around for that to be required to proc the passive reliably.

You can literally see that in the super star screenshot I took. 30k stam and 6.2k spell damage gave me 14.5k Healing Soul. If anything, healing skills are more accurate on Sorc since it doesn’t have % amplifiers.

It’s probably lower than expected because NB gets Minor Mending on Healthy Offering and healing done when slotting a Siphoning skill.

my tooltips above were from my sorc though, not my NB.

my NBs offering tooltips like 18.5k with no keep bonus and no mending active, just bow stacks + power extraction



stats are



for an effective power of ~9.6k

Edit: that does have the ST heal CP slotted, so +10%
that's still nearly 17k tooltip without that CP

Rhaegar75

ZOS can you please add a shield to coagulating blood or BoL? sorcs are not OP so why can't we all have the same kit

xylena_lazarow

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

ZOS can you please add a shield to coagulating blood or BoL? sorcs are not OP so why can't we all have the same kit

Not a bad idea. Sorcs claim they deserve the same healing as DKs and Plars, so clearly those classes deserve to be able to shield up like a Sorc. DK and Plar should also get their own Streak clones and ranged nuke skills.

Syiccal

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

ZOS can you please add a shield to coagulating blood or BoL? sorcs are not OP so why can't we all have the same kit

Not a bad idea. Sorcs claim they deserve the same healing as DKs and Plars, so clearly those classes deserve to be able to shield up like a Sorc. DK and Plar should also get their own Streak clones and ranged nuke skills.

While your at it, some timed burst please

Syiccal

All I know is since the change to ward, sorc as been the absolute hardest to take down especially if there more than 1 of them warding and nuking from range. Even if get them low it's a quick spam of the shield and streak away to reset.

Rhaegar75

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

ZOS can you please add a shield to coagulating blood or BoL? sorcs are not OP so why can't we all have the same kit

Not a bad idea. Sorcs claim they deserve the same healing as DKs and Plars, so clearly those classes deserve to be able to shield up like a Sorc. DK and Plar should also get their own Streak clones and ranged nuke skills.

it seems very fair: the beauty of immortality and the leisure of fragging people away whilst having the best mobility in the game!!

katorga

Healing contingency is better, and it turns a hardened ward cast into a massive heal as large or larger than Healthy Offering, Coagulating or Honor the Dead. Contingency + Ward is the Juice.

Reality, I have so much healing now, that I don't waste a slot and GCD on Hardened. The only sorc build I still use it on is the standard ancient grace/crafty/chudan max mag build. On my no-set Torc of Ayleid build, I hit harder and am much more survivable...

Scribing opened up a lot of options for mag sorc.

That said, Hardened Ward is on par with other classes heals now, no changes needed. It brought my sorc almost to the performance level of my NB. Ward + Contingent Heal is almost as good as Block Casting Healthy Offering or other classes' burst heals. There are a lot of S and A tier classes now, that is balance.

Syiccal

katorga wrote: »

Healing contingency is better, and it turns a hardened ward cast into a massive heal as large or larger than Healthy Offering, Coagulating or Honor the Dead. Contingency + Ward is the Juice.

Reality, I have so much healing now, that I don't waste a slot and GCD on Hardened. The only sorc build I still use it on is the standard ancient grace/crafty/chudan max mag build. On my no-set Torc of Ayleid build, I hit harder and am much more survivable...

Scribing opened up a lot of options for mag sorc.

That said, Hardened Ward is on par with other classes heals now, no changes needed. It brought my sorc almost to the performance level of my NB. Ward + Contingent Heal is almost as good as Block Casting Healthy Offering or other classes' burst heals. There are a lot of S and A tier classes now, that is balance.

Ward is definitely not in the same level as a straight up burst heal, a shield plus heal mechanic is ridiculous and should not exist. Even Arcanist is hamstring by needing crux for it to be worthwhile..sorc requires nothing but a thumb.

Jsmalls

Adding Shields to the Major/Minor Vitality/Defile system feels like a mistake.

Major defile is not easily accessed by the majority of classes, but major vitality is now a buff that's very commonly seen.

Setting up something like Ozzezan on a Sorc with major vitality on Wield Soul and stacking into magicka gives a regular 18-20k Ward with a 5k non crit heal.

That's obviously absurd (just like a polar wind Warden with 50k health).

But a 13k Ward with a 4k non crit heal is far from "Broken".

Changing this to a HoT isn't going to fix the above Scenario. This skill's values needs to be capped for the health of the game. They tried doing this with health caps then they gave it an absurd 72% max health value that doesn't mean anything because having 30k health (22k shield cap) takes no effort.

That or entirely rework damage shields. Having them as an extension of your health (where all mitigation %s and resistances apply just doesn't make sense). Damage Shields in my opinion should be helping "Glass Cannons" protect their health bar. Right now Damage Shields just offer an extension to your health and the tankier you are the stronger it is.

divnyi

Jsmalls wrote: »

That or entirely rework damage shields. Having them as an extension of your health (where all mitigation %s and resistances apply just doesn't make sense). Damage Shields in my opinion should be helping "Glass Cannons" protect their health bar. Right now Damage Shields just offer an extension to your health and the tankier you are the stronger it is.

Finally someone said it. My magsorc sitting at 38k armor is putting shield behind armor lol.

katorga

Syiccal wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Healing contingency is better, and it turns a hardened ward cast into a massive heal as large or larger than Healthy Offering, Coagulating or Honor the Dead. Contingency + Ward is the Juice.

Reality, I have so much healing now, that I don't waste a slot and GCD on Hardened. The only sorc build I still use it on is the standard ancient grace/crafty/chudan max mag build. On my no-set Torc of Ayleid build, I hit harder and am much more survivable...

Scribing opened up a lot of options for mag sorc.

That said, Hardened Ward is on par with other classes heals now, no changes needed. It brought my sorc almost to the performance level of my NB. Ward + Contingent Heal is almost as good as Block Casting Healthy Offering or other classes' burst heals. There are a lot of S and A tier classes now, that is balance.

Ward is definitely not in the same level as a straight up burst heal, a shield plus heal mechanic is ridiculous and should exist. Even Arcanist is hamstring by needing crux for it to be worthwhile..sorc requires nothing but a thumb.

I assume you mean "....is ridiculous and should NOT exist".

ZOS can do whatever they want with tbh. I've found more effective options.

Syiccal

katorga wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Healing contingency is better, and it turns a hardened ward cast into a massive heal as large or larger than Healthy Offering, Coagulating or Honor the Dead. Contingency + Ward is the Juice.

Reality, I have so much healing now, that I don't waste a slot and GCD on Hardened. The only sorc build I still use it on is the standard ancient grace/crafty/chudan max mag build. On my no-set Torc of Ayleid build, I hit harder and am much more survivable...

Scribing opened up a lot of options for mag sorc.

That said, Hardened Ward is on par with other classes heals now, no changes needed. It brought my sorc almost to the performance level of my NB. Ward + Contingent Heal is almost as good as Block Casting Healthy Offering or other classes' burst heals. There are a lot of S and A tier classes now, that is balance.

Ward is definitely not in the same level as a straight up burst heal, a shield plus heal mechanic is ridiculous and should exist. Even Arcanist is hamstring by needing crux for it to be worthwhile..sorc requires nothing but a thumb.

I assume you mean "....is ridiculous and should NOT exist".

ZOS can do whatever they want with tbh. I've found more effective options.

I do yes, my bad, edited

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

But a 13k Ward with a 4k non crit heal is far from "Broken"

If so, then the same needs to be done for Annulment, Bone Wall, and the Scribing shields, that way everyone has fair access. Impervious Runeward should have a fully spammable heal, and not shrink after one gcd. Sun Shield and Igneous Shield need to be given healing components, as well as an aggressive magicka pool scaling option. This should fix the meta.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot

Buff probably fell off so I took a screenshot via Superstar instead:



14.5k tooltip. With Major Vitality, it heals for 7.8k non crit and 12.5k crit in PvP for me.

When non crit, my Ward heals me for 3.4k and provides a 12.2k shield. When crit, it heals me for 5.5k and still provides a 12.2k shield. No Major Vitality btw.

Yea that 12.5k crit looks really cool and all but when you're banking your survivability off an RNG crit, it doesn't seem that appealing compared to a 12.2k shield and a 3.4k heal. Oh let's not mention the fact that Jerall completely screws over that 12.5k heal while the shield is unaffected.

14.5k looks better, still slightly low, but makes more sense now. DDF will likely bring that tooltip up to our 15k+.

If we're going to bring up niche counters (Jerall is strong, but super niche), trample has the dispel option to completely remove a shield, no matter the size, from an enemy (not reduce by up to 35% that takes nearly 20 seconds to reach full potential, not reduce by 5k or 8k, just flat out deletes it entirely and instantly if hit by the ability).

TBH, I'm surprised more people aren't using trample alongside other things against organized groups. it has some nasty combinations such as the following:

It's best used in keep battles where there are natural funnels to assist it, but it is stupidly strong and slept on in it's niche.


Here's the thing.
Shields and healing have their upsides and downsides. We can throw numbers back and forth all day long, but the fact of the matter is that wards (on their own, with no other effects/utility/heals) just don't match up to how strong heals have become. Wards and heals just aren't a flat 1:1 comparison due to how many mechanical differences there are between the 2 defensive mechanics.

The previous paragraph isn't to say current ward is fine, it's not. it's to say that comparing shields to heals with equal values will never be a fair comparison. heals just inherently have too many mechanical advantages over shields of the same size for it to be a fair comparison (it's why shield sizes on strong ward abilities have always had massive values compared to heal abilities).

That was with DDF. 30k stam and 6.2k weapon damage without Focused Mending CP.

Trample isn't going to hit a fast moving Sorc, let's be real now. Comparing a meme skill like Trample to Jerall is not fair.

I know the strengths and weakness of both Ward and burst heals. I'm simply stating a truth that magsorcs are too tanky for how much they invest into damage. Classes with over-the-top healing are also problematic and that's a truth as well. Both truths can exist at the same time and should not diminish each other's influence on the meta.

hmmm, sub 15k tooltip with DDF full seems a little low still (especially if not using ward with it), but at least it's not super low like before.

Out in open field, yeah, there's no shot trample hits a sorc that's keeping properly mobile, hence why I said it was a niche skill for keep fights that enforce those funnels.

Not arguing against that, since I agree they are too tanky right now (as are NB and polar wardens). Yep, I'm hoping ZOS looks at healing (and shielding) across the board.
- Ward is too bursty with its heal being a burst heal and not a HoT
- Offering has no business being so cheap for how strong it is and how many modifiers NB has access to, to scale it higher
- Polar needs adjusting, either cap it (while battle spirit is active) or make it a self heal only
- Coag needs its power shifted slightly, stronger base heal, but lower "execute scaling"
- Runeward is only not complained about because arcs dps is not suited to PvP, that ability is on par with hardened when looking in a vacuum though
- HtD needs some additional utility. its a good heal, just lacks the utility of heal soul
- resistant flesh needs its self defile removed. it was a cute idea thematically and was fine before, but there are too many debuffs flying around for that to be required to proc the passive reliably.

You can literally see that in the super star screenshot I took. 30k stam and 6.2k spell damage gave me 14.5k Healing Soul. If anything, healing skills are more accurate on Sorc since it doesn’t have % amplifiers.

It’s probably lower than expected because NB gets Minor Mending on Healthy Offering and healing done when slotting a Siphoning skill.

my tooltips above were from my sorc though, not my NB.

my NBs offering tooltips like 18.5k with no keep bonus and no mending active, just bow stacks + power extraction



stats are



for an effective power of ~9.6k

Edit: that does have the ST heal CP slotted, so +10%
that's still nearly 17k tooltip without that CP

If i remember correctly, Healing Soul has a lower tooltip than Healthy Offering because it doesn’t have the self-DoT penalty.

You can always replicate my stats in the Super Star screenshot and see if the tooltip matches. Keep in mind, I had 46.2k HP, 30k resistances, and 4k crit resist. I built as tanky as possible for Cyro while keeping just enough dmg to kill most ppl. Those offensive stats are impressive for a tank build imo, so that tooltip is by no means low.

StaticWave

katorga wrote: »

That said, Hardened Ward is on par with other classes heals now, no changes needed. It brought my sorc almost to the performance level of my NB. Ward + Contingent Heal is almost as good as Block Casting Healthy Offering or other classes' burst heals. There are a lot of S and A tier classes now, that is balance.

No, just no

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:



Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:



Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.

So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.

As I've said before Ward needs attention at the higher end I'll agree but how are we comparing the healing strength of two skills directly when they have different function aspects?

A heal that can target other players, returns resources, and grants a further healing buff would have a lower tooltip than a heal/defensive skills that can only be applied to yourself.

Turn that around and say if ward had a total tooltip including the heal that matched in total healing soul but healing soul did the other t two things and could target a friendly would that make sense?

But isn’t that what ward defenders have been doing? They have been comparing Ward to other class burst heals and arguing that it’s fair to have a 15k Ward with a 5k crit heal because other classes can crit their burst heal for 17-18k, while completely ignoring the rng aspect of burst heals. I’m simply using their argument against them.

StaticWave

divnyi wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

That or entirely rework damage shields. Having them as an extension of your health (where all mitigation %s and resistances apply just doesn't make sense). Damage Shields in my opinion should be helping "Glass Cannons" protect their health bar. Right now Damage Shields just offer an extension to your health and the tankier you are the stronger it is.

Finally someone said it. My magsorc sitting at 38k armor is putting shield behind armor lol.

Same on my stamsorc. I’m at 46k HP with 30k resists and 4k crit resist. I also have Vigor, Surge, and Blood Craze heal. At 46k HP my shield size is 12.2k with Bastion and I can pump that up to 13.5k with Major Vitality via Wield Soul. I can also heavy attack on Ice Staff for another 8k shield, bringing my total shield value to 20k+ lol.

Only a few classes can actually kill me, and those classes also majority other classes in a 1v1. Funnily enough, I also have enough damage to kill them lol.

divnyi

StaticWave wrote: »

I’m at 46k HP with 30k resists and 4k crit resist. I also have Vigor, Surge, and Blood Craze

Yes, but I mean, it's not hard to build tanky.
You can take Warden and make the tankiest tank ever, that would also delete newbies.

But I can put 64 into max magica and I don't feel squishy at all.
Because 25k HP + 10k shield in no-CP at armor cap is not squishy.