Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Tcholl

If you want to add your comments, at least read the previous comments on the thread.

Vaqual

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

(...) I gave up on pvp like 6 updates ago. (...)

That is the key part of this message for me^^.

Edit: Not to discount your opinion, more for saying that is the only sane choice if the PvP becomes unfun due to bad design choices.

Edit2: And I also don't want to say all changes in the past 2 years have been bad, because there are many things that are great. But the bad things just overshadow the good parts and the lack of recognition or communication from the Dev side really sours my perspective.

They could just go ahead and explain their reasoning, but I am sure they know that we know that they know that some aspects like hardened ward, warden healing and tarnished are not in the right spot. While half of the most urgent issues are not even recognized, the measures that are being taken are just questionable (see upcoming AB changes).

They are going to remove 2 cloak counters, which can be seen as nice because these were clearly not intentional, but instead of using the opportunity to adjust the power of cloak downward along with the removal of counters they just leave it where it is.

They ignore issues for such a long time that it just physically hurts when they make inadequate adjustments, because at this point it will take years for any kind of fix to even be considered. They could just talk it out with the player base.

I know that was a bit of a ramble, but this is really what it feels like to be on page 68 of this thread.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Hey kids if we just swap sorc with dk

If we just swap the gun with the knife. Thought we figured this one out a thousand posts ago.

This isn't that, the person is just pointing out an obvious trend and cycle of ZOS and this game. They buff a class to new heights, some enjoy it and some don't. Then they nerf the class or buff some other class and the wheel turns

Tcholl

With all due respect, again, you cannot defend a skill based on how classes were in the past.

Pointing out that ZOS is having a hard time balancing classes, which makes many players unhappy is just stating the obvious to people that play this game everyday. We need contructive criticism and not more hate about any specific class.

You have two options, either stop playing, as the said person did, or try to provide feedback to make things better.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

This isn't that

Show me a DK nuking opponents from 41m away then teleporting around the map.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

This isn't that

Show me a DK nuking opponents from 41m away then teleporting around the map.

I can show you a patch cycle where everyone played DK like they are now playing sorc or at least where sorc is more popular than it was.

I could show you a patch cycle where dks just weren't killable and you got multi leaped any time you played.

Sorcs will be taken back down when the next thing comes along

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I could show you a patch cycle where dks just weren't killable and you got multi leaped any time you played.

They were killable. DK is plenty fair now that you can't do perma Corrosive, so I'll take that meta.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I could show you a patch cycle where dks just weren't killable and you got multi leaped any time you played.

They were killable. DK is plenty fair now that you can't do perma Corrosive, so I'll take that meta.

Depended on the DK because some with little effort could just block, heal, ult to reset the fight and heal with one of multiple class skill backup choices while doing damage. It's fair now but it was definitely not so much then.

Honestly I don't get nearly as much multi curse or overloads as I got multi leaped or whipped.

I'll grant you though that DK didn't have the maneuverability but they didn't need it either because they could block heal los ult their way through a situation and possibly get aoe kills at the same time.

Funny thing is if you take away the mobility sorc becomes way worse as a comparison to dk now or then, like instantly.

Tcholl

This was not supose to be a thread about DKs, but if we want to compare just give Hardened Ward to DK buffing Igneous Shield or Coag Blood.

xylena_lazarow

Tcholl wrote: »

This was not supose to be a thread about DKs, but if we want to compare just give Hardened Ward to DK buffing Igneous Shield or Coag Blood.

Mash together Igneous Shield and Coag Blood into a single skill: Coagulating Shield, a 16k burst heal with an 8k shield, to match Hardened Ward's 16k shield with an 8k burst heal. Now the meta is balanced?

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

This was not supose to be a thread about DKs, but if we want to compare just give Hardened Ward to DK buffing Igneous Shield or Coag Blood.

Mash together Igneous Shield and Coag Blood into a single skill: Coagulating Shield, a 16k burst heal with an 8k shield, to match Hardened Ward's 16k shield with an 8k burst heal. Now the meta is balanced?

Balanced would be a Coagulating Shield scaling off health or stamina and being a 16k shield (with approximately 55k stamina or health) and a 4k heal (non crit burst heal) with bastion slotted.

Point for point Health > Shields.

A 16k heal on demand will never be balanced.

Tcholl

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

This was not supose to be a thread about DKs, but if we want to compare just give Hardened Ward to DK buffing Igneous Shield or Coag Blood.

Mash together Igneous Shield and Coag Blood into a single skill: Coagulating Shield, a 16k burst heal with an 8k shield, to match Hardened Ward's 16k shield with an 8k burst heal. Now the meta is balanced?

exactly!

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

A 16k heal on demand will never be balanced.

Yet nobody is screaming for Coag Blood nerfs anymore. Some DKs don't even slot it. If you press Coag Blood while at full hp, congrats you just wasted 4k magicka. Hardened Ward has no such weakness. You press it at full hp, you now have an extra 16k hp. You press it when you're low, you recover just as well as you would with Coag Blood.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

A 16k heal on demand will never be balanced.

Yet nobody is screaming for Coag Blood nerfs anymore. Some DKs don't even slot it. If you press Coag Blood while at full hp, congrats you just wasted 4k magicka. Hardened Ward has no such weakness. You press it at full hp, you now have an extra 16k hp. You press it when you're low, you recover just as well as you would with Coag Blood.

I wouldn’t say Ward recovers just as well as a burst heal when low. A crit 13k burst heal will almost always bring you to nearly full HP, but a crit Ward heal will maybe get you to 60% HP or so from low health. What Ward’s better at is like you said - the ability to gain value when at full HP. HOWEVER, when the shield size is big enough, say 15k, then a burst heal simply can’t compete.

TechMaybeHic

I pair a burst heal with my ward but under pressure from multiple attacker, it seems spamming ward is the best bet. Health doesn't recover to then go on the offensive, but it's total value without a crit on the heal is better that of a crit burst heal on another class which obvious doesn't happen every time.

I've also been alternating with my templar, doing some solo and zerg surfing being stubborn and wanting my old main. I can get my templar to layer restoring focus, vigor, and living dark to survive and maybe even be tankier overall; then hit HTD to recover but that's 3 abilities to fill what my sorc does with just 1. Sorc curse and frags together is also infinitely more reliable burst and chunky pressure than anything my templar does, which now really relies on meteor, javelin, Radiant combos

Guess my main point is how much easier sorc is right now at offense and defense. Never used to be the case. Even in sorcs hay day before the current; it was at the top end of better players playing it right while a lot of templars "just spammed jabs" and got away with it. Times have changed I guess

Tcholl

Am I really reading ppl comparing the actual state of Hardened Ward with Coag Blood? This border dishonesty. I rather believe they are just sorc maniacs and will defend their class no matter what. If you really play PvP now days, you cannot have this perception or you are playing a totally different game than everyone else.

To complain about any burst heal, when you can spam a SHIELD of 75 percent of your health on top of a BURST HEAL, is just rich. There are nothing one can do or say to convince someone who does not want to admit the truth of the facts.

I cannot believe we are still reading this kind of absurd, even after 68 pages of information.

Mrk

Cannot believe hardened ward still untouched, any player that has played a sorc or vs a sorc know how busted the skill is and if ZOS doesn't recognize the obvious that is in front of our eyes it's a sign of not understanding their own game. Every patch I see more and more players going on sorc for how easy it is compared to other classes, we will probably end up with everyone playing sorc at this point.

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I pair a burst heal with my ward but under pressure from multiple attacker, it seems spamming ward is the best bet. Health doesn't recover to then go on the offensive, but it's total value without a crit on the heal is better that of a crit burst heal on another class which obvious doesn't happen every time.

I've also been alternating with my templar, doing some solo and zerg surfing being stubborn and wanting my old main. I can get my templar to layer restoring focus, vigor, and living dark to survive and maybe even be tankier overall; then hit HTD to recover but that's 3 abilities to fill what my sorc does with just 1. Sorc curse and frags together is also infinitely more reliable burst and chunky pressure than anything my templar does, which now really relies on meteor, javelin, Radiant combos

Guess my main point is how much easier sorc is right now at offense and defense. Never used to be the case. Even in sorcs hay day before the current; it was at the top end of better players playing it right while a lot of templars "just spammed jabs" and got away with it. Tines have changed I guess

Can't speak for playing as a plar since I haven't done it in a while but man going up against them as a sorc can be rough especially if they are good with purges. Removing curse can really take the teeth out of your easier burst combo and then you have to go the other trickier route.

I've also met some plants that have no trouble creating reliable pressure and even eventually bursting me with some creative gameplay and builds. I don't know if it's easy on their end but they make it look kind of easy lol.

Sorc does have burst but at this point I find some classes have really easy defensive answers when played correctly.

Bushido2513

I do think ward needs an evaluation at the top end at the very least but I also think players should get away from the you press a button and this happens and I press a button and this happens argument.

There's a lot that goes into a build and the things that support that button press that need to be accounted for.

Could be wrong but don't ward, offering, coag, hotd, polar, all scale off different things?

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t say Ward recovers just as well as a burst heal when low

I would, but it's also currently entangled with Vamp 3, soon to be righteously nerfed, which should appropriately make shield builds more vulnerable to execute damage. Enough to balance Hardened Ward? Probably not.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t say Ward recovers just as well as a burst heal when low

I would, but it's also currently entangled with Vamp 3, soon to be righteously nerfed, which should appropriately make shield builds more vulnerable to execute damage. Enough to balance Hardened Ward? Probably not.

Depends on how much and what kind of pressure you're under. I've been able to recover from some things I wouldn't have been about to because but I've also died to a few beams, Tarnished, etc when I was already low. Also it's tricky because of how low on mag you'll be after vs what's still attacking you.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

Here let me repost this for you:

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

It's so easy to prove why mag sorcs don't swap to a regular burst heal just by using the UESP Build Editor (which is fairly accurate). For simplicity purposes, I won't be including CP in these demonstrations:

Here's a wardless mag sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Here's a wardless bow stam sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Both builds have an empty slot for Healing Soul. Both builds have over 10k Effective Weapon Power, with bow sorc sitting at 10.5k, around 500 higher than the wardless mag sorc build.

Both builds cannot use tri-pots because they don't have the bar space to fit in Camo Hunter, thereby needing to use Spell Crit pots for Major Prophecy. Both builds cannot slot Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload, as they need Temporal Guard for Minor Protection, and that's only on the back bar. Both builds need Rallying Cry for defense because without it, they will die so quickly in the current meta.

Then you look at a ward magsorc build:

It has just as much Effective Weapon Power as the other 2 builds, but it can also use tri pots because it doesn't need to slot Hurricane. It also uses Shocking Soul for a spammable with Major Vitality, and combined with a 56k max mag pool, its shield sits at around 14k in No CP and around 9k healing tooltip. With that shield size, it does not need Rallying Cry for defense. It can also slot both Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload because it already has access to Minor Protection via a class skill, which applies to both bars. Did I also mention Jeralls can't do anything to it either because its main defense is shielding and Jerall does not affect shields?


That ward mag sorc build is A LOT tankier than the wardless magsorc and bow sorc builds. It's achieving that without the need of a defensive set. Now imagine if I put Rallying Cry on that build and slot Hurricane:

Put Major Breach on Shocking Soul instead of Major Vitality. It will lose 10% crit damage and Major Vitality, but instead it gains Minor Expedition + Balorgh, which makes up for the damage loss anyway. Now you have a build that's not only tankier, but also faster in general and still does similar damage lol.

No sane mag sorc would drop Hardened Ward in its current iteration to run a less optimal build, aka mag sorc with regular burst heal. Funnily enough, a mag sorc build with regular burst heal would be the most optimal build for mag sorc if Hardened Ward did not get buffed lol.

And? You really think that to understand certain playstyle ang gain knowledge about it that will be enough to draw reliable conclusions You can just tap numbers in UESP build editor and call it a day?

Your comparison is missing many important elements that won''t be immidiately deduced from just looking at raw build editor numbers and thus it's unreliable and simpy false. Go and play the setup then comment.

I play magsorc and fight against magsorc everyday lol. I know it’s enough to call it a day.

You play magsorc the way You're trying to promote? With a healing soul and all the other stuff from Your UESP build editor screenshot? Do You also fight against sorcs like that?

You may think it's enough to call it a day and someone else may think otherwise. It's just opinions. Make a setup You're promoting play it for w while and turn opinions into more reliable data.

Dude.. my hybrid sorc is using vampire spammable, curse, and cfrag as damage. All mag skills. The only stam skills I have are Vigor and Hurricane. That is literally a magsorc build lol.

You can easily slot Vigor like every other hybrid build and have good healing. You don’t need to play a pure shield spec.

You could just answer that You don't play it the way You're trying to promote. Avoiding the answer is still an answer though.

Just play the setup You've been promoting instead of throwing random ideas and thinking You must be right because You've been playing other setup that You consider similar.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

I don't care about classic magsorcs when the game is hybridized. Just slot Healing Soul and Vigor like a normal build. Everybody is running it. You're trying to hold on to a 10 year old spec when every spec is now hybrid. Not my problem magsorc mains refuse to adapt.

"Like a normal build" seems like something with lot of bias behind it.

I am not trying to do anything other than point out that magsorc is not like every other build and Your comparisons are heavily failing to capture that. You basically want for every magsorc to become weaker version of stamsorc.

Why won't You adapt? Make a magsorc. Kinda ironic to expect for others to do what You are refusing to do..

I’ve already adapted by slotting a burst heal. I’m not out here defending a skill that makes 1 spec OP

On a magsorc instead of hardened ward?

Barely anyone here is defending the fact that hardened was overbuffed. Problem is that Your arguments usually go far beyond just claiming that. It's one thing to claim that hardened is OP and something completly else to for example claim that magsorc can be viable and balanced with just plain spammable burst heal.

Yes. Hybridization gave magsorc the best HoT in the game (Vigor), and Hurricane. Slotting those 2 skills turn it into a stamsorc but with magicka offensive skills. I’m playing that spec right now and I think it’s very competitive in OW. Everyone here should try it.

You're saying it like magsorc was the only class that recived acces to vigor or like he couldn't use hurricane earlier. Hybrydisation gave everyone acces to Vigor and some classes made way better use out of it than magsorc. This is why magsorc after hybrydization but before ward buff was still widely considered as highly mediocre setup. Magsorc always had acces to hurricane and it was considered as one of the viable options for the setup same as mag based resist buffs were viable option for stam based setups.

There is a big difference between how magsorc and stamsorc operates which cannot be removed just by switching few abilities. Stamsorc with magicka offensive skills is still a stamsorc not a magsorc. It's played differently than a magsorc. I have a DK that have 2/3 mag based abilities slotted and I still consider it a stam DK rather than mag one because of how the setup operates.

Belive it or not but not everyone wants to play stamsorc as much as You do so Your advice to just turn their magsorcs into a straight stamsorcs or some poor copies of a stamsorc is really not that great. If anything it just kinda hints at Your biases.

cofdeath420

Yeah, when 99% of the people doing PvP are running a sorc, you know something is broken. Time to remove the heal.

Galeriano2

cofdeath420 wrote: »

Yeah, when 99% of the people doing PvP are running a sorc, you know something is broken. Time to remove the heal.

Math aint mathing here. Nightblade is still the most popular class in PvP with sorc being a runner up.

StaticWave

Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:



Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:



Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.

So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:



Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:



Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.

So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.

that actually looks like a pretty low tooltip for heal soul, especially if you are at 6k+ weapon damage and 30k stam, it should be much closer to 15k at those numbers, which is roughly where mine tooltips (15k is also roughly where offering tooltips for on my NB that also gets 17k+ actual heals when offering crits).

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:



Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:



Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.

So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.

that actually looks like a pretty low tooltip for heal soul, especially if you are at 6k+ weapon damage and 30k stam, it should be much closer to 15k at those numbers, which is roughly where mine tooltips (15k is also roughly where offering tooltips for on my NB that also gets 17k+ actual heals when offering crits).

Wasn't with keep buff

Turtle_Bot

@StaticWave Here is my in-game heal soul tooltip in PvE (no +20% keep bonus):



My tooltip for Hardened (again, in PvE, so halve the shield tooltip to show what it would be in PvP):



Here are my stats for those heal soul and ward tooltips:



42k mag, 4.9k weapon damage for a total equivalent of 9.1k weapon power (which equals out to your 6k weapon damage and 30k stam which is total equivalent of 9k weapon power).

Yes, I technically have minor mending, but I usually have the single target healing done CP slotted for my PvP build, but it's not slotted for PvE, so technically my tooltip should be another 2% higher than shown above, before adding the 20% healing done near a keep, putting it at 16k (15.99) before the 20% bonus from being near a keep.

My PvP Ward is 9.5k shield + 3.5k heal.
My PvP Heal Soul is 8k non-crit heal (adding the 2% missing by removing minor mending 8% and adding the CP 10%).

Neither of the above tooltips has vitality active, but I should technically include vitality for heal soul since it is on the ability whereas ward needs to outsource that buff, as such heal soul would actually be at 17.8k before the 20% keep bonus for an 8.9k heal in PvP

Yes, ward (at 40-45k mag) is still technically slightly stronger (if we assume that shield size matches healing at a 1:1 ratio), but it is 1000000% not the "doubled or more value" as you seem to be experiencing, indicating something major is off with your build in regards to healing values. I would suggest you relook at your build if heal soul tooltip is that low for you with the same effective 9k power.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:



Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:



Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.

So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.

that actually looks like a pretty low tooltip for heal soul, especially if you are at 6k+ weapon damage and 30k stam, it should be much closer to 15k at those numbers, which is roughly where mine tooltips (15k is also roughly where offering tooltips for on my NB that also gets 17k+ actual heals when offering crits).

Wasn't with keep buff

Still math aint mathing. I have a stamsorc with similar stats on PTS and this is what I got with 6,1k wep dmg, 31k stam and no keep buff. With keep buff and the same stats, tooltip went up to over 18k.