Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Syiccal

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

In fairness healing soul in my experience is pretty terrible, when I tried to use in cyro I very rarely got the heal my self.

StaticWave

Syiccal wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

In fairness healing soul in my experience is pretty terrible, when I tried to use in cyro I very rarely got the heal my self.

In small groups the heal is excellent. I always get the heal on myself when solo PvPing or when in groups sizes less than 4.

StaticWave

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

It's so easy to prove why mag sorcs don't swap to a regular burst heal just by using the UESP Build Editor (which is fairly accurate). For simplicity purposes, I won't be including CP in these demonstrations:

Here's a wardless mag sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Here's a wardless bow stam sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Both builds have an empty slot for Healing Soul. Both builds have over 10k Effective Weapon Power, with bow sorc sitting at 10.5k, around 500 higher than the wardless mag sorc build.

Both builds cannot use tri-pots because they don't have the bar space to fit in Camo Hunter, thereby needing to use Spell Crit pots for Major Prophecy. Both builds cannot slot Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload, as they need Temporal Guard for Minor Protection, and that's only on the back bar. Both builds need Rallying Cry for defense because without it, they will die so quickly in the current meta.

Then you look at a ward magsorc build:

It has just as much Effective Weapon Power as the other 2 builds, but it can also use tri pots because it doesn't need to slot Hurricane. It also uses Shocking Soul for a spammable with Major Vitality, and combined with a 56k max mag pool, its shield sits at around 14k in No CP and around 9k healing tooltip. With that shield size, it does not need Rallying Cry for defense. It can also slot both Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload because it already has access to Minor Protection via a class skill, which applies to both bars. Did I also mention Jeralls can't do anything to it either because its main defense is shielding and Jerall does not affect shields?


That ward mag sorc build is A LOT tankier than the wardless magsorc and bow sorc builds. It's achieving that without the need of a defensive set. Now imagine if I put Rallying Cry on that build and slot Hurricane:

Put Major Breach on Shocking Soul instead of Major Vitality. It will lose 10% crit damage and Major Vitality, but instead it gains Minor Expedition + Balorgh, which makes up for the damage loss anyway. Now you have a build that's not only tankier, but also faster in general and still does similar damage lol.

No sane mag sorc would drop Hardened Ward in its current iteration to run a less optimal build, aka mag sorc with regular burst heal. Funnily enough, a mag sorc build with regular burst heal would be the most optimal build for mag sorc if Hardened Ward did not get buffed lol.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

Here let me repost this for you:

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

It's so easy to prove why mag sorcs don't swap to a regular burst heal just by using the UESP Build Editor (which is fairly accurate). For simplicity purposes, I won't be including CP in these demonstrations:

Here's a wardless mag sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Here's a wardless bow stam sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Both builds have an empty slot for Healing Soul. Both builds have over 10k Effective Weapon Power, with bow sorc sitting at 10.5k, around 500 higher than the wardless mag sorc build.

Both builds cannot use tri-pots because they don't have the bar space to fit in Camo Hunter, thereby needing to use Spell Crit pots for Major Prophecy. Both builds cannot slot Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload, as they need Temporal Guard for Minor Protection, and that's only on the back bar. Both builds need Rallying Cry for defense because without it, they will die so quickly in the current meta.

Then you look at a ward magsorc build:

It has just as much Effective Weapon Power as the other 2 builds, but it can also use tri pots because it doesn't need to slot Hurricane. It also uses Shocking Soul for a spammable with Major Vitality, and combined with a 56k max mag pool, its shield sits at around 14k in No CP and around 9k healing tooltip. With that shield size, it does not need Rallying Cry for defense. It can also slot both Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload because it already has access to Minor Protection via a class skill, which applies to both bars. Did I also mention Jeralls can't do anything to it either because its main defense is shielding and Jerall does not affect shields?


That ward mag sorc build is A LOT tankier than the wardless magsorc and bow sorc builds. It's achieving that without the need of a defensive set. Now imagine if I put Rallying Cry on that build and slot Hurricane:

Put Major Breach on Shocking Soul instead of Major Vitality. It will lose 10% crit damage and Major Vitality, but instead it gains Minor Expedition + Balorgh, which makes up for the damage loss anyway. Now you have a build that's not only tankier, but also faster in general and still does similar damage lol.

No sane mag sorc would drop Hardened Ward in its current iteration to run a less optimal build, aka mag sorc with regular burst heal. Funnily enough, a mag sorc build with regular burst heal would be the most optimal build for mag sorc if Hardened Ward did not get buffed lol.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

I don't care about classic magsorcs when the game is hybridized. Just slot Healing Soul and Vigor like a normal build. Everybody is running it. You're trying to hold on to a 10 year old spec when every spec is now hybrid. Not my problem magsorc mains refuse to adapt.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

I don't care about classic magsorcs when the game is hybridized. Just slot Healing Soul and Vigor like a normal build. Everybody is running it. You're trying to hold on to a 10 year old spec when every spec is now hybrid. Not my problem magsorc mains refuse to adapt.

This is such a weird post to me as was your previous one.

First off Ward needs an adjustment, there's no denying that. The upper end is just overturned for players that run that build.

With that being said and I say this to any player on any class. Run what you like, you are under no obligation to play this game in any way other than one that makes you happy and is allowed by ZOS.

I'm not a Tarnished fan by any means but I would never tell anyone wearing it to take it off. ZOS put it here, the player farmed it, now go enjoy it till it gets nerfed. Doesn't matter if anyone thinks it's too strong, a carry, etc. They need to report that to ZOS not to players that just run what ZOS gave them


This is like in dueling when people would say oh well take this set off or this skill off and see how you do. Why would I when I like my build the way it is just as hopefully you like your build as is?

I could say so much about asking XYZ class to not run such and such skill or set but how does that make sense when they aren't the ones that make the class or set.

Maybe people aren't refusing to do anything but instead going with what feels better for them in enjoying their video game that they bought, pay for, and spend time playing?

TechMaybeHic

Syiccal wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

In fairness healing soul in my experience is pretty terrible, when I tried to use in cyro I very rarely got the heal my self.

Is it smart target? I know with HTD on plar; I'd point my camera at the ground away from friendlies to make sure I git the heal. Assuming healing Soul uses the same targeting

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

It's not really the only explanation, but it is a big part of it for most players.

I have tried heal soul, I actually really like it, outside of a few small things. The 2 issues I am finding when using it are:
1. I am forced back into using crushing shock for my spammable since there's no real viable magicka alternatives, especially not if I want to keep the mage theme and not just be a "cloakless NB" with arterial burst or hybrid sorc with FG shards. Shocking soul has been a very nice alternative to crushing shock. Not as directly powerful due to lack of status effects, but flexible enough to allow some additional build flexibility.
2. Heal soul is very unreliable when not completely solo (so basically unnoticeable in duels or most 1vX, but extremely problematic when within 30m of any allies). Class heals like HtD/offering/RF, etc have a cone shape target area that makes them very easy to force into being a fairly reliable self heal, heal soul has the issue of being pure circular AoE target area, meaning that the random full health NB safely hidden in cloak 30m behind you will always get the heal over you unless you are almost dead yourself. (Note, this is something I have seen others (non-sorcs) bring up on the forums as a reason they are swapping back to their class heals instead of running heal soul).

Stamsorc doesn't really notice the first issue due to the abundance of very strong non-class stamina spammable options available (both within and outside of scribing) and the second issue is likely less problematic for you specifically due to your specific playstyle (dueling and 1vX far away from the allied zerg, which is where I have also found that heal soul performs the best).

Right now I am running a hybrid damage/mag build, ~30k health, ~42k mag and about 6k damage (buffed) with ward front bar and healing contingency + dark conversion back bar (ward is about 9-10k shield and 3-4k heal), since it fits my playstyle better than the max mag build does.
If ZOS fixed the second issue I have with heal soul by making its targeting a cone shaped area in front of the caster, and created a viable alternative magicka spammable to shocking soul (that's not just crushing shock or "worse concealed") via scribing, I would switch out ward for heal soul in a heart beat. But, until such time, I will continue to use ward (even as a more balanced heal being 9-10k shield and 3-4k heal total) with shocking soul because it provides the flexibility in my build to allow me to play something that better suits me and my playstyle, especially since it gains major prophecy/savagery next patch too allowing me to switch around a few more things.

P.s. I've tried shroud, it's a good heal after the blood magic rework, but it is so expensive to use at 5k mag (accounting for vamp) per cast (due to being designated an AoE heal). Maybe an idea for shroud, ZOS could have shroud inflict minor main instead of major maim (or remove it altogether since it grants vitality) and grant 10% of its cost back if it doesn't heal anyone except the caster (basically nerfing the maim, but granting if it only heals the caster and no-one else, it has a very small resource return that puts it at roughly the same 4600 cost as a standard single target burst heal costs).

Syiccal

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

In fairness healing soul in my experience is pretty terrible, when I tried to use in cyro I very rarely got the heal my self.

Is it smart target? I know with HTD on plar; I'd point my camera at the ground away from friendlies to make sure I git the heal. Assuming healing Soul uses the same targeting

No because it's target is area, where as HtD is conal in front I'm pretty sure. When I'm in bg or cyro anyone in that 28m range that is lower hp than me gets the heal..it's frustrating to use

Turtle_Bot

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

In fairness healing soul in my experience is pretty terrible, when I tried to use in cyro I very rarely got the heal my self.

Is it smart target? I know with HTD on plar; I'd point my camera at the ground away from friendlies to make sure I git the heal. Assuming healing Soul uses the same targeting

Well it is smart target, the issue is the target area. HTD target area is a cone in front of the caster, so you can force it to be a reliable self heal by aiming at the ground or facing away from allies.

The target area for heal soul is a radius around the caster, so even aiming at the ground or facing away from allies, it will still heal those allies if their health is lower than yours (especially problematic with gankblades in stealth that are at 20k health when full).

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

I don't care about classic magsorcs when the game is hybridized. Just slot Healing Soul and Vigor like a normal build. Everybody is running it. You're trying to hold on to a 10 year old spec when every spec is now hybrid. Not my problem magsorc mains refuse to adapt.

This is such a weird post to me as was your previous one.

First off Ward needs an adjustment, there's no denying that. The upper end is just overturned for players that run that build.

With that being said and I say this to any player on any class. Run what you like, you are under no obligation to play this game in any way other than one that makes you happy and is allowed by ZOS.

I'm not a Tarnished fan by any means but I would never tell anyone wearing it to take it off. ZOS put it here, the player farmed it, now go enjoy it till it gets nerfed. Doesn't matter if anyone thinks it's too strong, a carry, etc. They need to report that to ZOS not to players that just run what ZOS gave them


This is like in dueling when people would say oh well take this set off or this skill off and see how you do. Why would I when I like my build the way it is just as hopefully you like your build as is?

I could say so much about asking XYZ class to not run such and such skill or set but how does that make sense when they aren't the ones that make the class or set.

Maybe people aren't refusing to do anything but instead going with what feels better for them in enjoying their video game that they bought, pay for, and spend time playing?

Why is it weird? Let me put it this way:

There are 7 classes in the game. Nearly 7 of them are hybrid specs. Mag classes are using some stam skills and stam classes are using mag skills. There is no true mag vs stam anymore.

So why on earth does magsorc mains still stick to a 10 year old build and complain about Ward being too weak when ZOS literally just gave them several burst heals to use? It’s weird logic.

Tcholl

Of course someone using hardened ward will feel that healing soul is not good enough. This is exactly the issue, since ward is too powerfull if compared to any scribing skill.

Either fix ward or buff a scribing skill to reach the same results. I am sure if they do the last, we would have even more players complaining and creating posts asking for a nerf.

At this point, seems that some players that use hardened ward will fight with their life to defend it. One can wonder why.

Syiccal

Tcholl wrote: »

Of course someone using hardened ward will feel that healing soul is not good enough. This is exactly the issue, since ward is too powerfull if compared to any scribing skill.

Either fix ward or buff a scribing skill to reach the same results. I am sure if they do the last, we would have even more players complaining and creating posts asking for a nerf.

At this point, seems that some players that use hardened ward will fight with their life to defend it. One can wonder why.

Imo and I don't main a sorc, I have one but don't play it but if I did I would absolutely use hardened ward, there is no reason not to. Healing soul is not even comparable especially as I've said before it very rarely heals the caster in a busy environment.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

Classic MagSorcs had to slot Healing Ward or Harness Magicka alongside Hardened Ward. It's never been a one button class until now. Directly replace it with Healing Soul on current MagSorc as your only active heal. Let us know.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

I don't care about classic magsorcs when the game is hybridized. Just slot Healing Soul and Vigor like a normal build. Everybody is running it. You're trying to hold on to a 10 year old spec when every spec is now hybrid. Not my problem magsorc mains refuse to adapt.

This is such a weird post to me as was your previous one.

First off Ward needs an adjustment, there's no denying that. The upper end is just overturned for players that run that build.

With that being said and I say this to any player on any class. Run what you like, you are under no obligation to play this game in any way other than one that makes you happy and is allowed by ZOS.

I'm not a Tarnished fan by any means but I would never tell anyone wearing it to take it off. ZOS put it here, the player farmed it, now go enjoy it till it gets nerfed. Doesn't matter if anyone thinks it's too strong, a carry, etc. They need to report that to ZOS not to players that just run what ZOS gave them


This is like in dueling when people would say oh well take this set off or this skill off and see how you do. Why would I when I like my build the way it is just as hopefully you like your build as is?

I could say so much about asking XYZ class to not run such and such skill or set but how does that make sense when they aren't the ones that make the class or set.

Maybe people aren't refusing to do anything but instead going with what feels better for them in enjoying their video game that they bought, pay for, and spend time playing?

Why is it weird? Let me put it this way:

There are 7 classes in the game. Nearly 7 of them are hybrid specs. Mag classes are using some stam skills and stam classes are using mag skills. There is no true mag vs stam anymore.

So why on earth does magsorc mains still stick to a 10 year old build and complain about Ward being too weak when ZOS literally just gave them several burst heals to use? It’s weird logic.

Ok I see your point and where you're coming from. The complaints you speak of came before there were other options. So what I'm saying is that we are now in the time of ward being where it is so while that's our current then no, people shouldn't switch if they like it and take their builds down just to make anyone happy.

You make it sound like the refusal to change is why we have ward and even if that was the case I'm saying that's still a choice ZOS is making and that ultimately isn't under the control of any player. Implying that it is just helps create an environment where we blame players for using things ZOS gave them which is what I think is weird.

Players will switch options when ZOS changes or takes away more favorable options.

A better way to say what you're saying in my opinion is that it's ZOS making a years old build more viable and interesting than current options.

Again to be clear I currently don't use ward in a maxed out spec so any changes to it wouldn't bother me much of at all. I suspect that those that are crutching on ward will have to deal with any fallout if it gets nerfed and to me that's fair.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

Here let me repost this for you:

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

It's so easy to prove why mag sorcs don't swap to a regular burst heal just by using the UESP Build Editor (which is fairly accurate). For simplicity purposes, I won't be including CP in these demonstrations:

Here's a wardless mag sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Here's a wardless bow stam sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Both builds have an empty slot for Healing Soul. Both builds have over 10k Effective Weapon Power, with bow sorc sitting at 10.5k, around 500 higher than the wardless mag sorc build.

Both builds cannot use tri-pots because they don't have the bar space to fit in Camo Hunter, thereby needing to use Spell Crit pots for Major Prophecy. Both builds cannot slot Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload, as they need Temporal Guard for Minor Protection, and that's only on the back bar. Both builds need Rallying Cry for defense because without it, they will die so quickly in the current meta.

Then you look at a ward magsorc build:

It has just as much Effective Weapon Power as the other 2 builds, but it can also use tri pots because it doesn't need to slot Hurricane. It also uses Shocking Soul for a spammable with Major Vitality, and combined with a 56k max mag pool, its shield sits at around 14k in No CP and around 9k healing tooltip. With that shield size, it does not need Rallying Cry for defense. It can also slot both Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload because it already has access to Minor Protection via a class skill, which applies to both bars. Did I also mention Jeralls can't do anything to it either because its main defense is shielding and Jerall does not affect shields?


That ward mag sorc build is A LOT tankier than the wardless magsorc and bow sorc builds. It's achieving that without the need of a defensive set. Now imagine if I put Rallying Cry on that build and slot Hurricane:

Put Major Breach on Shocking Soul instead of Major Vitality. It will lose 10% crit damage and Major Vitality, but instead it gains Minor Expedition + Balorgh, which makes up for the damage loss anyway. Now you have a build that's not only tankier, but also faster in general and still does similar damage lol.

No sane mag sorc would drop Hardened Ward in its current iteration to run a less optimal build, aka mag sorc with regular burst heal. Funnily enough, a mag sorc build with regular burst heal would be the most optimal build for mag sorc if Hardened Ward did not get buffed lol.

And? You really think that to understand certain playstyle ang gain knowledge about it that will be enough to draw reliable conclusions You can just tap numbers in UESP build editor and call it a day?

Your comparison is missing many important elements that won''t be immidiately deduced from just looking at raw build editor numbers and thus it's unreliable and simpy false. Go and play the setup then comment.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

Classic MagSorcs had to slot Healing Ward or Harness Magicka alongside Hardened Ward. It's never been a one button class until now. Directly replace it with Healing Soul on current MagSorc as your only active heal. Let us know.

No he didn't since couple of years. Even before ward buff, classic magsorc setups mostly switched to running just hardened ward as a shield.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

Classic MagSorcs had to slot Healing Ward or Harness Magicka alongside Hardened Ward. It's never been a one button class until now. Directly replace it with Healing Soul on current MagSorc as your only active heal. Let us know.

There's really no question here. I don't think there is anyone debating if ward should be looked at. But there's also no reason to switch to a non class skill with a lesser tooltip to see how well that goes.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

I don't care about classic magsorcs when the game is hybridized. Just slot Healing Soul and Vigor like a normal build. Everybody is running it. You're trying to hold on to a 10 year old spec when every spec is now hybrid. Not my problem magsorc mains refuse to adapt.

"Like a normal build" seems like something with lot of bias behind it.

I am not trying to do anything other than point out that magsorc is not like every other build and Your comparisons are heavily failing to capture that. You basically want for every magsorc to become weaker version of stamsorc.

Why won't You adapt? Make a magsorc. Kinda ironic to expect for others to do what You are refusing to do..

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

Here let me repost this for you:

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

It's so easy to prove why mag sorcs don't swap to a regular burst heal just by using the UESP Build Editor (which is fairly accurate). For simplicity purposes, I won't be including CP in these demonstrations:

Here's a wardless mag sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Here's a wardless bow stam sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Both builds have an empty slot for Healing Soul. Both builds have over 10k Effective Weapon Power, with bow sorc sitting at 10.5k, around 500 higher than the wardless mag sorc build.

Both builds cannot use tri-pots because they don't have the bar space to fit in Camo Hunter, thereby needing to use Spell Crit pots for Major Prophecy. Both builds cannot slot Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload, as they need Temporal Guard for Minor Protection, and that's only on the back bar. Both builds need Rallying Cry for defense because without it, they will die so quickly in the current meta.

Then you look at a ward magsorc build:

It has just as much Effective Weapon Power as the other 2 builds, but it can also use tri pots because it doesn't need to slot Hurricane. It also uses Shocking Soul for a spammable with Major Vitality, and combined with a 56k max mag pool, its shield sits at around 14k in No CP and around 9k healing tooltip. With that shield size, it does not need Rallying Cry for defense. It can also slot both Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload because it already has access to Minor Protection via a class skill, which applies to both bars. Did I also mention Jeralls can't do anything to it either because its main defense is shielding and Jerall does not affect shields?


That ward mag sorc build is A LOT tankier than the wardless magsorc and bow sorc builds. It's achieving that without the need of a defensive set. Now imagine if I put Rallying Cry on that build and slot Hurricane:

Put Major Breach on Shocking Soul instead of Major Vitality. It will lose 10% crit damage and Major Vitality, but instead it gains Minor Expedition + Balorgh, which makes up for the damage loss anyway. Now you have a build that's not only tankier, but also faster in general and still does similar damage lol.

No sane mag sorc would drop Hardened Ward in its current iteration to run a less optimal build, aka mag sorc with regular burst heal. Funnily enough, a mag sorc build with regular burst heal would be the most optimal build for mag sorc if Hardened Ward did not get buffed lol.

And? You really think that to understand certain playstyle ang gain knowledge about it that will be enough to draw reliable conclusions You can just tap numbers in UESP build editor and call it a day?

Your comparison is missing many important elements that won''t be immidiately deduced from just looking at raw build editor numbers and thus it's unreliable and simpy false. Go and play the setup then comment.

I play magsorc and fight against magsorc everyday lol. I know it’s enough to call it a day.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

I don't care about classic magsorcs when the game is hybridized. Just slot Healing Soul and Vigor like a normal build. Everybody is running it. You're trying to hold on to a 10 year old spec when every spec is now hybrid. Not my problem magsorc mains refuse to adapt.

"Like a normal build" seems like something with lot of bias behind it.

I am not trying to do anything other than point out that magsorc is not like every other build and Your comparisons are heavily failing to capture that. You basically want for every magsorc to become weaker version of stamsorc.

Why won't You adapt? Make a magsorc. Kinda ironic to expect for others to do what You are refusing to do..

I’ve already adapted by slotting a burst heal. I’m not out here defending a skill that makes 1 spec OP

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

Here let me repost this for you:

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

It's so easy to prove why mag sorcs don't swap to a regular burst heal just by using the UESP Build Editor (which is fairly accurate). For simplicity purposes, I won't be including CP in these demonstrations:

Here's a wardless mag sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Here's a wardless bow stam sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Both builds have an empty slot for Healing Soul. Both builds have over 10k Effective Weapon Power, with bow sorc sitting at 10.5k, around 500 higher than the wardless mag sorc build.

Both builds cannot use tri-pots because they don't have the bar space to fit in Camo Hunter, thereby needing to use Spell Crit pots for Major Prophecy. Both builds cannot slot Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload, as they need Temporal Guard for Minor Protection, and that's only on the back bar. Both builds need Rallying Cry for defense because without it, they will die so quickly in the current meta.

Then you look at a ward magsorc build:

It has just as much Effective Weapon Power as the other 2 builds, but it can also use tri pots because it doesn't need to slot Hurricane. It also uses Shocking Soul for a spammable with Major Vitality, and combined with a 56k max mag pool, its shield sits at around 14k in No CP and around 9k healing tooltip. With that shield size, it does not need Rallying Cry for defense. It can also slot both Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload because it already has access to Minor Protection via a class skill, which applies to both bars. Did I also mention Jeralls can't do anything to it either because its main defense is shielding and Jerall does not affect shields?


That ward mag sorc build is A LOT tankier than the wardless magsorc and bow sorc builds. It's achieving that without the need of a defensive set. Now imagine if I put Rallying Cry on that build and slot Hurricane:

Put Major Breach on Shocking Soul instead of Major Vitality. It will lose 10% crit damage and Major Vitality, but instead it gains Minor Expedition + Balorgh, which makes up for the damage loss anyway. Now you have a build that's not only tankier, but also faster in general and still does similar damage lol.

No sane mag sorc would drop Hardened Ward in its current iteration to run a less optimal build, aka mag sorc with regular burst heal. Funnily enough, a mag sorc build with regular burst heal would be the most optimal build for mag sorc if Hardened Ward did not get buffed lol.

And? You really think that to understand certain playstyle ang gain knowledge about it that will be enough to draw reliable conclusions You can just tap numbers in UESP build editor and call it a day?

Your comparison is missing many important elements that won''t be immidiately deduced from just looking at raw build editor numbers and thus it's unreliable and simpy false. Go and play the setup then comment.

I play magsorc and fight against magsorc everyday lol. I know it’s enough to call it a day.

You play magsorc the way You're trying to promote? With a healing soul and all the other stuff from Your UESP build editor screenshot? Do You also fight against sorcs like that?

You may think it's enough to call it a day and someone else may think otherwise. It's just opinions. Make a setup You're promoting play it for w while and turn opinions into more reliable data.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

I don't care about classic magsorcs when the game is hybridized. Just slot Healing Soul and Vigor like a normal build. Everybody is running it. You're trying to hold on to a 10 year old spec when every spec is now hybrid. Not my problem magsorc mains refuse to adapt.

"Like a normal build" seems like something with lot of bias behind it.

I am not trying to do anything other than point out that magsorc is not like every other build and Your comparisons are heavily failing to capture that. You basically want for every magsorc to become weaker version of stamsorc.

Why won't You adapt? Make a magsorc. Kinda ironic to expect for others to do what You are refusing to do..

I’ve already adapted by slotting a burst heal. I’m not out here defending a skill that makes 1 spec OP

On a magsorc instead of hardened ward?

Barely anyone here is defending the fact that hardened was overbuffed. Problem is that Your arguments usually go far beyond just claiming that. It's one thing to claim that hardened is OP and something completly else to for example claim that magsorc can be viable and balanced with just plain spammable burst heal.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

I don't care about classic magsorcs when the game is hybridized. Just slot Healing Soul and Vigor like a normal build. Everybody is running it. You're trying to hold on to a 10 year old spec when every spec is now hybrid. Not my problem magsorc mains refuse to adapt.

"Like a normal build" seems like something with lot of bias behind it.

I am not trying to do anything other than point out that magsorc is not like every other build and Your comparisons are heavily failing to capture that. You basically want for every magsorc to become weaker version of stamsorc.

Why won't You adapt? Make a magsorc. Kinda ironic to expect for others to do what You are refusing to do..

I’ve already adapted by slotting a burst heal. I’m not out here defending a skill that makes 1 spec OP

I don't see anyone defending ward when it comes to the optimized build. There's a difference between running ward because it's available and defending it as being a fair option when min maxed.

I don't think anyone is saying that current ward is completely balanced but again, it's available as a tool in the kit so it would be a detriment not to run it.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

Here let me repost this for you:

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

It's so easy to prove why mag sorcs don't swap to a regular burst heal just by using the UESP Build Editor (which is fairly accurate). For simplicity purposes, I won't be including CP in these demonstrations:

Here's a wardless mag sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Here's a wardless bow stam sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:

Both builds have an empty slot for Healing Soul. Both builds have over 10k Effective Weapon Power, with bow sorc sitting at 10.5k, around 500 higher than the wardless mag sorc build.

Both builds cannot use tri-pots because they don't have the bar space to fit in Camo Hunter, thereby needing to use Spell Crit pots for Major Prophecy. Both builds cannot slot Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload, as they need Temporal Guard for Minor Protection, and that's only on the back bar. Both builds need Rallying Cry for defense because without it, they will die so quickly in the current meta.

Then you look at a ward magsorc build:

It has just as much Effective Weapon Power as the other 2 builds, but it can also use tri pots because it doesn't need to slot Hurricane. It also uses Shocking Soul for a spammable with Major Vitality, and combined with a 56k max mag pool, its shield sits at around 14k in No CP and around 9k healing tooltip. With that shield size, it does not need Rallying Cry for defense. It can also slot both Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload because it already has access to Minor Protection via a class skill, which applies to both bars. Did I also mention Jeralls can't do anything to it either because its main defense is shielding and Jerall does not affect shields?


That ward mag sorc build is A LOT tankier than the wardless magsorc and bow sorc builds. It's achieving that without the need of a defensive set. Now imagine if I put Rallying Cry on that build and slot Hurricane:

Put Major Breach on Shocking Soul instead of Major Vitality. It will lose 10% crit damage and Major Vitality, but instead it gains Minor Expedition + Balorgh, which makes up for the damage loss anyway. Now you have a build that's not only tankier, but also faster in general and still does similar damage lol.

No sane mag sorc would drop Hardened Ward in its current iteration to run a less optimal build, aka mag sorc with regular burst heal. Funnily enough, a mag sorc build with regular burst heal would be the most optimal build for mag sorc if Hardened Ward did not get buffed lol.

And? You really think that to understand certain playstyle ang gain knowledge about it that will be enough to draw reliable conclusions You can just tap numbers in UESP build editor and call it a day?

Your comparison is missing many important elements that won''t be immidiately deduced from just looking at raw build editor numbers and thus it's unreliable and simpy false. Go and play the setup then comment.

I play magsorc and fight against magsorc everyday lol. I know it’s enough to call it a day.

You play magsorc the way You're trying to promote? With a healing soul and all the other stuff from Your UESP build editor screenshot? Do You also fight against sorcs like that?

You may think it's enough to call it a day and someone else may think otherwise. It's just opinions. Make a setup You're promoting play it for w while and turn opinions into more reliable data.

Dude.. my hybrid sorc is using vampire spammable, curse, and cfrag as damage. All mag skills. The only stam skills I have are Vigor and Hurricane. That is literally a magsorc build lol.

You can easily slot Vigor like every other hybrid build and have good healing. You don’t need to play a pure shield spec.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.

If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".

Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.

I don't care about classic magsorcs when the game is hybridized. Just slot Healing Soul and Vigor like a normal build. Everybody is running it. You're trying to hold on to a 10 year old spec when every spec is now hybrid. Not my problem magsorc mains refuse to adapt.

"Like a normal build" seems like something with lot of bias behind it.

I am not trying to do anything other than point out that magsorc is not like every other build and Your comparisons are heavily failing to capture that. You basically want for every magsorc to become weaker version of stamsorc.

Why won't You adapt? Make a magsorc. Kinda ironic to expect for others to do what You are refusing to do..

I’ve already adapted by slotting a burst heal. I’m not out here defending a skill that makes 1 spec OP

On a magsorc instead of hardened ward?

Barely anyone here is defending the fact that hardened was overbuffed. Problem is that Your arguments usually go far beyond just claiming that. It's one thing to claim that hardened is OP and something completly else to for example claim that magsorc can be viable and balanced with just plain spammable burst heal.

Yes. Hybridization gave magsorc the best HoT in the game (Vigor), and Hurricane. Slotting those 2 skills turn it into a stamsorc but with magicka offensive skills. I’m playing that spec right now and I think it’s very competitive in OW. Everyone here should try it.

boi_anachronism_

StaticWave wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

I'm not too good with my MagSorc, only AR25. Since my original was a melee DK, I was too prone to get in melee range and I was squishy, so I'd die.

However, last night I took my Magsorc into Zerodil and didn't die once. I hate to say it but Magsorc went from one of the most challenging class almost to easy mode with this change.

So when you say you didn't die what did you survive? A 12 man running negate and dc, 3 hard hitting NBs, one dk and two hard hitting bow builds, a large bomb with 3 vs procs?

Also when you didn't die was it to copious streak usage?

And lastly did you get many kills in group or on your own?

I ask all this because there's a difference in not dying and not dying while getting solo kills. As well as a difference in not dying and just getting out of there because a lot of classes and builds can currently do this with relative ease so I'm curious

I was solo. I survived several keep battles where EP was over run and I was surrounded by hoardes of opposing faction. Normally I would have been blown to bits but the hardened ward kept me alive even in close quarters several times, even in melee range. I think I had 44 kills and 0 deaths before maintenance. Like I said I am not an expert sorc by any means. I will say it is fun to play sorc now, but OP builds are always fun...for a little while at least

They’ll just say “Sorc is now on par with other classes” lol..

I know for a fact if you had hopped on another class with the same level of experience as you have on Sorc, you would’ve died instantly.

Sorc is better than other classes right now. It’s the new NB.

Hey kids if we just swap sorc with dk in this discussion you can travel back in time...literal years of the invincible dk meta. I dont miss it. Atleast other classes are getting a turn now from time to time. And before anyone goes there no i am not a sorc main lol I gave up on pvp like 6 updates ago. If i do it at all now its for scribing or an event.

Tcholl

I don't understand the logic behind defending a skill that almost everyone agrees that had a bad buff, which is hardened ward, because other classes were op in the PAST! Really?!?

Playing time is good to experience how things are right NOW and provide valid feedback on the actual state of the game.

xylena_lazarow

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Hey kids if we just swap sorc with dk

If we just swap the gun with the knife. Thought we figured this one out a thousand posts ago.