Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

MEBengalsFan2001 · July 26

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I've run Dawnbreaker as well but I honestly find it easier to Streak through for shooting star than get right on for the conal.

Dawnbreaker is more threatening to go against but fewer players can land it. Meteor is really good for dealing with Tarnished gankers and can hit opposing Sorcs as they try to Streak away. Given the rather weird state of Sorc ults right now, you can easily make an argument to run both Dawnbreaker and Meteor on your Sorc.

Nothing worse than hitting DB to watch it delay as the target just streaked away or, they are stealth and it does that jumpy animation.

The guy I hit, was a ganky NB and was moving fast trying to get away after opening on me with a fresh shield. It was very satisfying.

Here a thought classes with low mobility have a skill like petrified that causes two CC effects and both cc effects don’t proc immunity and both cc effects would require a break out to release. This way classes with high mobility can be slowed down.

TechMaybeHic · July 27

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I've run Dawnbreaker as well but I honestly find it easier to Streak through for shooting star than get right on for the conal.

Dawnbreaker is more threatening to go against but fewer players can land it. Meteor is really good for dealing with Tarnished gankers and can hit opposing Sorcs as they try to Streak away. Given the rather weird state of Sorc ults right now, you can easily make an argument to run both Dawnbreaker and Meteor on your Sorc.

Nothing worse than hitting DB to watch it delay as the target just streaked away or, they are stealth and it does that jumpy animation.

The guy I hit, was a ganky NB and was moving fast trying to get away after opening on me with a fresh shield. It was very satisfying.

Here a thought classes with low mobility have a skill like petrified that causes two CC effects and both cc effects don’t proc immunity and both cc effects would require a break out to release. This way classes with high mobility can be slowed down.

CC without immunity is always a very bad idea. They seemed to have figured that out years ago when they removed the kb on jab ticks that could stun lock unless you blocked and got out of the way. Somewhere along the way, ZOS lost their sense, so maybe they'd do it

xylena_lazarow · July 27

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

CC without immunity is always a very bad idea.

Like how you can get pulled and then stunned, or double pulled. By invisible set procs no less, not skills. At least Hardened Ward requires pressing a button and you can see when the opposing Sorc does it.

Alchimiste1 · July 27

Jsmalls wrote: »

This was all in response to someone saying that Chudan/wretched/crafty is the optimal setup.

I strongly disagree that's the optimal setup, but I do think it's a very easy setup to play (high recovery, high magicka for Ward, and a major buff that if you let drop could get you killed is always active). It leaves a lot of kill potential on the table, and some versatility with movement speed. I'm my OPINION it's a setup that brings the skill floor up and has a lower skill ceiling. There is nothing wrong with that though.

The setup I'm using definitely isn't optimal (for example light attacks with S&B are harder to fit in and one handed enchants are weaker). I have reasons for running things the way I run them mostly for preference or experiences (I like the S&B passives and prefer to use stamina for blocking on my back bar), and I've definitely seen setups better than my own.

And it is my opinion that chudan is on average a much better choice than balorg for solo 1vX on msorc

Bushido2513 · July 29

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This was all in response to someone saying that Chudan/wretched/crafty is the optimal setup.

I strongly disagree that's the optimal setup, but I do think it's a very easy setup to play (high recovery, high magicka for Ward, and a major buff that if you let drop could get you killed is always active). It leaves a lot of kill potential on the table, and some versatility with movement speed. I'm my OPINION it's a setup that brings the skill floor up and has a lower skill ceiling. There is nothing wrong with that though.

The setup I'm using definitely isn't optimal (for example light attacks with S&B are harder to fit in and one handed enchants are weaker). I have reasons for running things the way I run them mostly for preference or experiences (I like the S&B passives and prefer to use stamina for blocking on my back bar), and I've definitely seen setups better than my own.

And it is my opinion that chudan is on average a much better choice than balorg for solo 1vX on msorc

I'd say on average it's almost not even an opinion because then we're adding in players that don't want to manage that buff or would die while trying to make use of balorg. That's going to be more of a risk reward playstyle where chudan gives you more armor and less buff maintenance.

Alchimiste1 · July 29

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This was all in response to someone saying that Chudan/wretched/crafty is the optimal setup.

I strongly disagree that's the optimal setup, but I do think it's a very easy setup to play (high recovery, high magicka for Ward, and a major buff that if you let drop could get you killed is always active). It leaves a lot of kill potential on the table, and some versatility with movement speed. I'm my OPINION it's a setup that brings the skill floor up and has a lower skill ceiling. There is nothing wrong with that though.

The setup I'm using definitely isn't optimal (for example light attacks with S&B are harder to fit in and one handed enchants are weaker). I have reasons for running things the way I run them mostly for preference or experiences (I like the S&B passives and prefer to use stamina for blocking on my back bar), and I've definitely seen setups better than my own.

And it is my opinion that chudan is on average a much better choice than balorg for solo 1vX on msorc

I'd say on average it's almost not even an opinion because then we're adding in players that don't want to manage that buff or would die while trying to make use of balorg. That's going to be more of a risk reward playstyle where chudan gives you more armor and less buff maintenance.

I honestly have no idea what you are even trying to say.

Bushido2513 · July 29

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This was all in response to someone saying that Chudan/wretched/crafty is the optimal setup.

I strongly disagree that's the optimal setup, but I do think it's a very easy setup to play (high recovery, high magicka for Ward, and a major buff that if you let drop could get you killed is always active). It leaves a lot of kill potential on the table, and some versatility with movement speed. I'm my OPINION it's a setup that brings the skill floor up and has a lower skill ceiling. There is nothing wrong with that though.

The setup I'm using definitely isn't optimal (for example light attacks with S&B are harder to fit in and one handed enchants are weaker). I have reasons for running things the way I run them mostly for preference or experiences (I like the S&B passives and prefer to use stamina for blocking on my back bar), and I've definitely seen setups better than my own.

And it is my opinion that chudan is on average a much better choice than balorg for solo 1vX on msorc

I'd say on average it's almost not even an opinion because then we're adding in players that don't want to manage that buff or would die while trying to make use of balorg. That's going to be more of a risk reward playstyle where chudan gives you more armor and less buff maintenance.

I honestly have no idea what you are even trying to say.

Forming an observation through comparative analysis of two different options. It's not important, just an observation.

xylena_lazarow · July 29

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Forming an observation through comparative analysis of two different options. It's not important, just an observation.

...huh?

Bushido2513 · July 29

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Forming an observation through comparative analysis of two different options. It's not important, just an observation.

...huh?

I'll have to give you points for being succinct! But let's move back to talking about ward which we now have to live with for another patch cycle. I'm so looking forward to the interaction with the vamp changes.

Do we think maybe ZOS had a plan to make ward as it is to help deal with bar space and the vamp changes?

Then again everyone takes 15 percent more so maybe sorcs will really just be everywhere?

TechMaybeHic · July 29

I feel like sorc is least likely to feel the loss of undeath. 10k hp shield and a 4k heal on the low end after battlespirit is still stronger than any burst heal post BS. That's the thing. Environments can change but relation to other abilities stay the same

divnyi · July 30

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I feel like sorc is least likely to feel the loss of undeath. 10k hp shield and a 4k heal on the low end after battlespirit is still stronger than any burst heal post BS. That's the thing. Environments can change but relation to other abilities stay the same

My sorc is not an undead to begin with, so yeah, it's highly unlikely I will feel anything

TechMaybeHic · July 30

divnyi wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I feel like sorc is least likely to feel the loss of undeath. 10k hp shield and a 4k heal on the low end after battlespirit is still stronger than any burst heal post BS. That's the thing. Environments can change but relation to other abilities stay the same

My sorc is not an undead to begin with, so yeah, it's highly unlikely I will feel anything

Mine I've tried both Have a friend that ran more of a stam sorc who is abandoning his build there because he relied on undeath to go offensive; but my magsorc has not needed it.

Bushido2513 · July 30

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I feel like sorc is least likely to feel the loss of undeath. 10k hp shield and a 4k heal on the low end after battlespirit is still stronger than any burst heal post BS. That's the thing. Environments can change but relation to other abilities stay the same

I'm at 9.5k with 3k heal after bs, so total 12.5 actual which I think is still pretty high up there for a solo heal though I know it goes higher on optimized builds though other classes have things that should be taken into account when comparing this heal

Jsmalls · July 30

Yeah I haven't been a vampire since the days of the DK meta. This nerf will be nothing but positive for me.

Would like to state though, at 50% health this will be a 7.5% nerf to damage reduction, and by 20% health will be a 12% nerf to damage reduction.

This isn't considering whether this mitigation was additive or multiplicative cuz idk.

Very curious to see how this change will effect all classes. Along with the change to Wardens and if they will try to play below 30k for the damage buff.

Overall I would like to see the decision for the health threshold added to Wardens utilized across more classes. That being said it needs to be tweaked from class to class. Having 29999 Health and a 15k shield is still 45k effective health. And that's not fair compared to classes without in-class access to shields (so really everyone but Arcanists and Sorcs). But then you have the interaction of health based healing abilities versus damage scaling healing abilities. The concept needs a deep dive and I think they did a very poor job of the initial implementation on Warden. But I LOVE the concept.

xylena_lazarow · July 30

Jsmalls wrote: »

Overall I would like to see the decision for the health threshold added to Wardens utilized across more classes

You circumvent it by running something like back bar Plague Doc on a SnB, now you've still got high hp Polar Wind block cast spam to complement your damage bar, gaining the benefits of both sides of the threshhold. Wondering if that's intended? I'm skeptical of the threshhold concept, but I'd love to see more sets with diminishing stacking like Rallying Cry, since it's the stacking of effects, whether proc sets or things like Polar Wind, that really break the game.

a_u_s_t_y · July 30

This post still going?

I play magsorc, (Cyro only, no dueling, no bgs) I face way more nightblades/dks/arcanist/melee sorcs.. In fact fighting magsorcs is rare for me, specially good ones.

Magsorc is limited.. you are tunnel visioned into 2/3 sets and have vary limited room to move with sets to be competitive.. max mag is the only way to play magsorc at the moment..
Night blades are popular because you can be a brawler, proc ganker, bomber, crit build, 1vx build (probably more)

yes the shield buff has increased the survivability of magsorcs but people find it way easier killing/surviving playing the other classes (lower skill ceiling to be successful) (specially nightblades)

Actually I’ve seen a big uptake in arcanists and troll ‘unkillable’ templars during mayhem, my guess is because they are easy to survive on

All the good players I know jumped on the sorc hype bandwagon then after a couple weeks went straight back to nightblade.

Being a good magsorc isn’t just about spamming shield, it’s about mobility, knowing when to disengage, managing resources, kiting & spreading out opponents and knowing classes and how to counter them (I would say this is the same for any class)

If you are great at these things you will probably win most fights or have long fights / draw against equal opponents.. the shield buff doesn’t improve these skills, it makes mag sorc easier to play for new people but anyone who has worked on their pvp skills will kill any magsorc that relies on just the shield

I still think NB is the best pvp class in the game in terms of accessibility and toolkit and this shield buff has just brought mag sorc a bit closer to them

xylena_lazarow · July 30

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

I still think NB is the best pvp class in the game in terms of accessibility and toolkit and this shield buff has just brought mag sorc a bit closer to them

NB can't face tank like Sorc. One detect pot and they get zerged down, where Sorc tanks and streaks forever.

Bushido2513 · July 30

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

This post still going?

I play magsorc, (Cyro only, no dueling, no bgs) I face way more nightblades/dks/arcanist/melee sorcs.. In fact fighting magsorcs is rare for me, specially good ones.

Magsorc is limited.. you are tunnel visioned into 2/3 sets and have vary limited room to move with sets to be competitive.. max mag is the only way to play magsorc at the moment..
Night blades are popular because you can be a brawler, proc ganker, bomber, crit build, 1vx build (probably more)

yes the shield buff has increased the survivability of magsorcs but people find it way easier killing/surviving playing the other classes (lower skill ceiling to be successful) (specially nightblades)

Actually I’ve seen a big uptake in arcanists and troll ‘unkillable’ templars during mayhem, my guess is because they are easy to survive on

All the good players I know jumped on the sorc hype bandwagon then after a couple weeks went straight back to nightblade.

Being a good magsorc isn’t just about spamming shield, it’s about mobility, knowing when to disengage, managing resources, kiting & spreading out opponents and knowing classes and how to counter them (I would say this is the same for any class)

If you are great at these things you will probably win most fights or have long fights / draw against equal opponents.. the shield buff doesn’t improve these skills, it makes mag sorc easier to play for new people but anyone who has worked on their pvp skills will kill any magsorc that relies on just the shield

I still think NB is the best pvp class in the game in terms of accessibility and toolkit and this shield buff has just brought mag sorc a bit closer to them

My experience is closer to yours in facing different enemies. It's rare that a magsorc hits me with a broken bottle but I see other classes all the time.

I do think magsorc has more specs they can build into now like crit or high health but yeah you still have to want to play in a certain kind of way to be able to enjoy the class.

I definitely see more troll or just hard to kill builds. I'm surprised at the amount of people I've had to chase around polls that are on different classes that are then spamming tanky defensive skills.

I do get sorcs too but there's variations of hard hitting duos and heavy attacking pet sorcs. They generally speaking are mostly tanky with big shields or bird heals.

Tcholl · July 30

I apologize @a_u_s_t_y , but your MYM experience is not the same as mine.

I see a lot of sorcs jumping around and abusing ward, while other classes need to hide or group.

Also, the sorc gankers are very annoying since they are also hard to kill now. How in the world someone thought that would be ok to give huge shield to range gankers? Only in ESO...

No one plays IC, no one plays BG and soon no one will play Cyro too. We need a change of mentality or we will lose pvp in elder scrolls for good.

a_u_s_t_y · July 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

I still think NB is the best pvp class in the game in terms of accessibility and toolkit and this shield buff has just brought mag sorc a bit closer to them

NB can't face tank like Sorc. One detect pot and they get zerged down, where Sorc tanks and streaks forever.

They can, takes pvp ability and skill, cloak is like shield if you only rely on that you are screwed. I see plenty of good NB players 1vxing and face tanking multiple people.. it’s all about who are your opponents.. unfortunately for Cyro as a veteran it’s easy to pick out who are new to pvp or lack skill

The same nb will know he can face tank 4 bad players whilst opting use cloak to kite/reposition against better players.. it’s the same with magsorc.. a shield won’t help you against good players and streak is used for repositioning/kiting

a_u_s_t_y · July 30

Tcholl wrote: »

I apologize @a_u_s_t_y , but your MYM experience is not the same as mine.

I see a lot of sorcs jumping around and abusing ward, while other classes need to hide or group.

Also, the sorc gankers are very annoying since they are also hard to kill now. How in the world someone thought that would be ok to give huge shield to range gankers? Only in ESO...

No one plays IC, no one plays BG and soon no one will play Cyro too. We need a change of mentality or we will lose pvp in elder scrolls for good.

How does one “abuse ward”?

If a sorc is good at repositioning and kiting against multiple targets then that’s not down to ward.. I doubt he is just standing there casting ward.. ward is not that good to help against multiple targets on its own.. no the sorc is probably constantly moving, counter attacking, using line of sight.. which you can’t blame.. it’s what you do in 1vx.. if it’s 5v1 and he uses ward streaks away then don’t be mad you didn’t kill him.. if it’s 1v1 and you put pressure and he wards/streaks away see that as a win..

Sorry to say but this isn’t hardened ward causing this issue.. it sounds more like a player skill issue

Bushido2513 · July 30

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

I still think NB is the best pvp class in the game in terms of accessibility and toolkit and this shield buff has just brought mag sorc a bit closer to them

NB can't face tank like Sorc. One detect pot and they get zerged down, where Sorc tanks and streaks forever.

They can, takes pvp ability and skill, cloak is like shield if you only rely on that you are screwed. I see plenty of good NB players 1vxing and face tanking multiple people.. it’s all about who are your opponents.. unfortunately for Cyro as a veteran it’s easy to pick out who are new to pvp or lack skill

The same nb will know he can face tank 4 bad players whilst opting use cloak to kite/reposition against better players.. it’s the same with magsorc.. a shield won’t help you against good players and streak is used for repositioning/kiting

Yeah didn't see this before but yeah I've met nbs that can definitely face tank but I will admit it's more work than 1 maybe 2 buttons. NB has to keep a rotation up.

Also different people are saying they do or don't see sorcs so I'm going to say maybe consider time that you play, where you play, and platform. These can ask factor into how many sorcs you do or don't see.

Tcholl · July 30

It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.

The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.

It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.

Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.

Jsmalls · July 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Overall I would like to see the decision for the health threshold added to Wardens utilized across more classes

You circumvent it by running something like back bar Plague Doc on a SnB, now you've still got high hp Polar Wind block cast spam to complement your damage bar, gaining the benefits of both sides of the threshhold. Wondering if that's intended? I'm skeptical of the threshhold concept, but I'd love to see more sets with diminishing stacking like Rallying Cry, since it's the stacking of effects, whether proc sets or things like Polar Wind, that really break the game.

See I'm okay with this, same concept I've been doing with back bar S&B as willpower with a Magicka enchant for a bigger Ward back bar (I know front bar Ward is better but I can't adapt, too many years of muscle memory).

This is helping the heal size for them (1 PC Druid and Trainee), while still being susceptible to dying on their front bar with 29.5k health. That's a fair compromise. They would also be giving up a potential back bar proc set for this.

a_u_s_t_y · July 30

Bushido2513 wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

I still think NB is the best pvp class in the game in terms of accessibility and toolkit and this shield buff has just brought mag sorc a bit closer to them

NB can't face tank like Sorc. One detect pot and they get zerged down, where Sorc tanks and streaks forever.

They can, takes pvp ability and skill, cloak is like shield if you only rely on that you are screwed. I see plenty of good NB players 1vxing and face tanking multiple people.. it’s all about who are your opponents.. unfortunately for Cyro as a veteran it’s easy to pick out who are new to pvp or lack skill

The same nb will know he can face tank 4 bad players whilst opting use cloak to kite/reposition against better players.. it’s the same with magsorc.. a shield won’t help you against good players and streak is used for repositioning/kiting

Yeah didn't see this before but yeah I've met nbs that can definitely face tank but I will admit it's more work than 1 maybe 2 buttons. NB has to keep a rotation up.

Also different people are saying they do or don't see sorcs so I'm going to say maybe consider time that you play, where you play, and platform. These can ask factor into how many sorcs you do or don't see.

Surviving on any class takes more then 1/2 buttons specially sorc.. I’m constantly rebuffing, knowing when to darkdeal, when to streak, when to shield & when to rlll dodge, any magsorc that is just relying on 2 buttons (I’m guessing streak and shield) won’t last long

a_u_s_t_y · July 30

Tcholl wrote: »

It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.

The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.

It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.

Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.

That top paragraph has absolutely no point to it, what are you trying to say?

Wow saying this with such confidence as if you have stats to back this up? I can also do this.. I could say something like.. If ward is a massive problem and over powered why are there more people playing NBs then sorcs?

People are leaving pvp everyday because the lack of changes to pvp.. its been the same map, the same objectives, the same factions for years and years… they left the pvp meta the same for like 2 years.. it gets stale.. new games come out and peek peoples interest.. they are taking risks and shaking up the meta.. ward is strong but making the statement that this change to one skill is making people leave the game daily is ridiculous..

Unfortunately the eso population is dwindling and unlike other chapters it doesn’t feel like gold road has given any life to eso (pve and pvp)

divnyi · July 30

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

How does one “abuse ward”?

You put it on the skill bar and press that button.

Tcholl · July 30

I am not here to convince anyone, specially those that benefits from the buff in question. If you did not understand what I wrote, I am sorry.

I am here to provide my feedback, since I play PvP almost every day.

Also, I will not go back and forth with you or anyone else here. If you want evidence, go search for it yourself and you will find plenty.

a_u_s_t_y · July 30

Bushido2513 wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

I still think NB is the best pvp class in the game in terms of accessibility and toolkit and this shield buff has just brought mag sorc a bit closer to them

NB can't face tank like Sorc. One detect pot and they get zerged down, where Sorc tanks and streaks forever.

They can, takes pvp ability and skill, cloak is like shield if you only rely on that you are screwed. I see plenty of good NB players 1vxing and face tanking multiple people.. it’s all about who are your opponents.. unfortunately for Cyro as a veteran it’s easy to pick out who are new to pvp or lack skill

The same nb will know he can face tank 4 bad players whilst opting use cloak to kite/reposition against better players.. it’s the same with magsorc.. a shield won’t help you against good players and streak is used for repositioning/kiting

Yeah didn't see this before but yeah I've met nbs that can definitely face tank but I will admit it's more work than 1 maybe 2 buttons. NB has to keep a rotation up.

Also different people are saying they do or don't see sorcs so I'm going to say maybe consider time that you play, where you play, and platform. These can ask factor into how many sorcs you do or don't see.

divnyi wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

How does one “abuse ward”?

You put it on the skill bar and press that button.

With this logic I abuse a great many skills then

xylena_lazarow · July 30

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

I play magsorc, (Cyro only, no dueling, no bgs) I face way more nightblades/dks/arcanist/melee sorcs.. In fact fighting magsorcs is rare for me, specially good ones... The same nb will know he can face tank 4 bad players... I’m interested in peoples opinions and thoughts but your comments brought nothing to the conversation in my opinion

Have you read the previous nigh two thousand posts? You're late to the party and basically saying your experience is biased by being a MagSorc main, limited in scope and not competitive, and pure perception no data. Nobody cares what 4 bad players do, they aren't running coherent builds or strats, they die to npcs and that doesn't make npcs op.