Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

TechMaybeHic

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RIP Necro.

RIP Arcanist too. Outclassed as a pressure DD, outclassed as a bomber DD, relegated to ball group utility.

You're not giving enough credit to arcanist. It still have plenty of potential in PvP including some niche areas that he is leading in like for example bash build which properly built especially in BGs can be abused to basically harass whoever You want, sorcs included.

Sorcs are the ultimate counter to bash builds with kite ability.

Galeriano2

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RIP Necro.

RIP Arcanist too. Outclassed as a pressure DD, outclassed as a bomber DD, relegated to ball group utility.

You're not giving enough credit to arcanist. It still have plenty of potential in PvP including some niche areas that he is leading in like for example bash build which properly built especially in BGs can be abused to basically harass whoever You want, sorcs included.

Sorcs are the ultimate counter to bash builds with kite ability.

You would be suprised how easy it is to chase sorcs on bash arcanist and to sit on them continously no matter what they do. In Cyro they may have a chance to run away if they spam multiple streaks in a row and help themselves with psijic ulti, although even then it's not guaranteed escape. In BG they have zero chance to escape. Properly build bash arcanist is the ultimate counter for streak spamming sorcs.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

You're not giving enough credit to arcanist. It still have plenty of potential in PvP including some niche areas that he is leading in like for example bash build which properly build especially in BGs can be abused to basically harass whoever You want, sorcs included.

Have you been playing Arc? How's it compare to your Sorc? I'm not selling Arc short, that's my point, it's just too niche (and even Necro has a group niche). I love Arc's theme and aesthetic, but the offensive toolkit isn't well suited for PvP (sorry you're just clowning on weaker players when you do laser or bash builds). Scribing doesn't seem to help Arc much since buffs and utility are already Arc's strengths. Meanwhile Sorc, NB, and Warden can do whatever they want.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

You're not giving enough credit to arcanist. It still have plenty of potential in PvP including some niche areas that he is leading in like for example bash build which properly build especially in BGs can be abused to basically harass whoever You want, sorcs included.

Have you been playing Arc? How's it compare to your Sorc? I'm not selling Arc short, that's my point, it's just too niche (and even Necro has a group niche). I love Arc's theme and aesthetic, but the offensive toolkit isn't well suited for PvP (sorry you're just clowning on weaker players when you do laser or bash builds). Scribing doesn't seem to help Arc much since buffs and utility are already Arc's strengths. Meanwhile Sorc, NB, and Warden can do whatever they want.

Belive me You can harass even top sorcs on properly built bash arcanist. And You can do it so easily it feels broken. I did it for a moment but I got bored really fast. That being said setup itself is highly effective under right conditions to the point even pretty mediocre players are capable to perform well in high MMR BGs and to basically shut down any DD player they want if they want to do it, no matter how good that player is. In BGs You can produce damage pressure comparable to full dmg setups while enemy can barely scratch You since Your stats basically represent a full tank setup. You can also sit on sorcs almost infinitely even if they try to run away if You know what abilities to use.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Belive me You can harass even top sorcs on properly built bash arcanist

Streak does not exist! Streak is not real! Streak cannot hurt you!

Keep lecturing me on how to play Arc though. This is me in high MMR with no real team support.



Sorry I love Arc but it's mid as a PvP DD. Sorc does shield playstyle DD better, DK does pressure DD better, Warden does group DD better, NB does smallscale bomber better, Bow Sorc does Azureblight bomber better (watched a very good player winning games in a BGs tournament with an Azure Lazer Arc but even he was missing kills with it). The offensive toolkit is jank, and I haven't seen anything in Scribing that's gonna duct tape it together as well as MDW/Vatesh did.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Belive me You can harass even top sorcs on properly built bash arcanist

Streak does not exist! Streak is not real! Streak cannot hurt you!

Keep lecturing me on how to play Arc though. This is me in high MMR with no real team support.



Sorry I love Arc but it's mid as a PvP DD. Sorc does shield playstyle DD better, DK does pressure DD better, Warden does group DD better, NB does smallscale bomber better, Bow Sorc does Azureblight bomber better (watched a very good player winning games in a BGs tournament with an Azure Lazer Arc but even he was missing kills with it). The offensive toolkit is jank, and I haven't seen anything in Scribing that's gonna duct tape it together as well as MDW/Vatesh did.

Fact that You don't know how to sit on streak users as bash arcanist doesn't mean it's impossible. Like I said You can basically harass any sorc You want as bash arcanist in BG when built properly.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Fact that You don't know how to sit on streak users as bash arcanist doesn't mean it's impossible. Like I said You can basically harass any sorc You want as bash arcanist in BG when built properly.

Alright then. Show us.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Fact that You don't know how to sit on streak users as bash arcanist doesn't mean it's impossible. Like I said You can basically harass any sorc You want as bash arcanist in BG when built properly.

Alright then. Show us.

I mean a video always works well but I can say from experience that this is a thing. You can definitely get away from an Arc or really any player with steak but a well played Arc can generally speaking catch up to you in a BG map and be fairly harassing without dying.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Belive me You can harass even top sorcs on properly built bash arcanist

Streak does not exist! Streak is not real! Streak cannot hurt you!

Keep lecturing me on how to play Arc though. This is me in high MMR with no real team support.



Sorry I love Arc but it's mid as a PvP DD. Sorc does shield playstyle DD better, DK does pressure DD better, Warden does group DD better, NB does smallscale bomber better, Bow Sorc does Azureblight bomber better (watched a very good player winning games in a BGs tournament with an Azure Lazer Arc but even he was missing kills with it). The offensive toolkit is jank, and I haven't seen anything in Scribing that's gonna duct tape it together as well as MDW/Vatesh did.

Fact that You don't know how to sit on streak users as bash arcanist doesn't mean it's impossible. Like I said You can basically harass any sorc You want as bash arcanist in BG when built properly.

Nah I’ve played against several bash builds in high MMR BG. The bash Sorcs are actually harder to deal with because they’re fast and also have Streak to chase after me. Any other class on a bash build aren’t a threat unless I fight them head on.

TechMaybeHic

Never mind the fact we are saying an Arc needs to play a bash build at a high end level to just harras an average sorc

Galeriano2

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Never mind the fact we are saying an Arc needs to play a bash build at a high end level to just harras an average sorc

Who said anything about arc needing that? Please read what i said more carefully and if You don't understand what I wrote don't make assumptions about it.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Who said anything about arc needing that? Please read what i said more carefully and if You don't understand what I wrote don't make assumptions about it.

Still waiting to see this Sorc killer Arc of yours.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arc can generally speaking catch up to you in a BG map and be fairly harassing without dying.

Harassing. But not threatening. Brick Arcs are easy for a fast build to ignore.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Who said anything about arc needing that? Please read what i said more carefully and if You don't understand what I wrote don't make assumptions about it.

Still waiting to see this Sorc killer Arc of yours.

Sorry but I don't like to promote cancerous setups publically. Too many people later wants to jump on them. Also as I already said I stopped to play my basharcanist since for me personally it was just really boring. It's not like trhis conversation meas so much to me that I will start gearing him up and record some footage.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Sorry but I don't like to promote cancerous setups publically.

So it either doesn't exist, or it's not that good. Got it. I've fought bash Arcs, not a threat. There's exactly one bash player that I've ever seen a threat, and they were a Sorc player who knew how to teleport.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arc can generally speaking catch up to you in a BG map and be fairly harassing without dying.

Harassing. But not threatening. Brick Arcs are easy for a fast build to ignore.

They can be pretty threatening and produce enough DPS to basically keep sorc constantly in defense with close to no chance to retaliate. If You think You can run away from them with streak it means You havn't met the properly built one yet. If You want to make some sorc's match miserable You can just do it and nobody can stop You from it. All it takes is some basic PvP experience and slotting two crucial abilities that make sure sorc will never be able to effectively loose Your chase and recover.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Sorry but I don't like to promote cancerous setups publically.

So it either doesn't exist, or it's not that good. Got it. I've fought bash Arcs, not a threat. There's exactly one bash player that I've ever seen a threat, and they were a Sorc player who knew how to teleport.

Sorry but You got nothing other than Your own assumptions to supports Your agenda. I clearly said why I refuse to share that setup details. That is also a reason I don't want to share a setup that is capable to survive majority of time just with impervious ward which You claimed is impossible and after seeing my cmx that proved You wrong You asked me to share the build.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

You claimed is impossible and after seeing my cmx that proved You wrong You asked me to share the build.

Proves nothing without the build. Looked like a tank, not a DD, and probably in a PvE zone against trash.

StaticWave

Not sure why Ward still doesn't get addressed when Scribing and Blood Magic buff gave Sorc competitive options of a burst heal.

Zabagad

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Belive me You can harass even top sorcs on properly built bash arcanist

Streak does not exist! Streak is not real! Streak cannot hurt you!

Keep lecturing me on how to play Arc though. This is me in high MMR with no real team support.

I never did a BG, so it took me 2 minutes to figure out if you played arc or sorc
So - I have two learning questions:
1) Why don't I see everyone's class? I would bet I saw it on all the BG results I saw before.
2) How can you get more assists (I assume A means assists?) then kills of your hole group? Can you get assists on other group deaths?

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

You claimed is impossible and after seeing my cmx that proved You wrong You asked me to share the build.

Proves nothing without the build. Looked like a tank, not a DD, and probably in a PvE zone against trash.

Whole idea behind a brawler setups is usually a mix between tank and DD. Math for runeguard of still waters wouldn't be mathing in a PvE zone.

Galeriano2

Zabagad wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Belive me You can harass even top sorcs on properly built bash arcanist

Streak does not exist! Streak is not real! Streak cannot hurt you!

Keep lecturing me on how to play Arc though. This is me in high MMR with no real team support.

I never did a BG, so it took me 2 minutes to figure out if you played arc or sorc
So - I have two learning questions:
1) Why don't I see everyone's class? I would bet I saw it on all the BG results I saw before.
2) How can you get more assists (I assume A means assists?) then kills of your hole group? Can you get assists on other group deaths?

1. There are addons that improve BG scoreboard for example addon called better scoreboard. This addon also let's You to queue for solo and group match at the same time so it can shorten queue waiting period.

2. Yes if You participated in a death of member of one enemy team that was finished by member of another enemy team it counts as assist. There is also a possibility of people leaving Your team and new ones joining it so final number of kills and assist will not be adding up. For example You can have a BG deathmatch where Your team scored 510 points which is 34 kills but amount of kills that Your team scored on scoreboard can be like 30 because someone with 4 kills has left. Same happens with assists

xylena_lazarow

Zabagad wrote: »

2) How can you get more assists (I assume A means assists?) then kills of your hole group? Can you get assists on other group deaths?

Kill stealing, and yes. Dot pressure builds generally get a lot of assists. Here's a funny one, weird lobby with players that were either strong or weak, nothing in between. Nowhere near as close as the score makes it look, but the orange MagSorc kept stealing my kills. My one death was from bad positioning that got me zerged by purple (skill issue on my part).



Having a 41m range stun on Dazing Soul and heavy ranged pressure from Master Ice Reach has been my adaptation to the MagSorc meta. You know things are messed up when 41m range stuns are "needed" to keep up with broken ranged attackers, given how they made it a point to delete 41m range stuns from the game all those years ago.

Iriidius

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Yea, imagine a new PvPer eager to learn about PvP in the game, only to realize a few months into PvP that there's so much imbalance, and he leaves. Kinda hard to retain PvP players if we treat everything as casual lol.

Imbalances like this heavily favor the meta player, widening the gap between meta builds and unoptimized casual builds. If anything, casual players and builds are more dependent on a well balanced PvP game to have any chance at all to succeed, while hardcore competitive players can easily drop whatever they're doing to go abuse the new broken thing.

One angle I'm not sure has been covered is the way stacking max mag is not only a buff to both defense and offense, but also a massive sustain buff, your 50k max mag pool lasts twice as long as the 25k mag pools everyone else is running. You simply cannot say that about stacking pen or wd/sd, only max mag sorcs efficiently get 3 entire build pillars from 1 stat.

Despite „stacking max magicka beeing is not only a buff to (both defense and) offense but also a massive sustain buff“, almost every player that is not a magsorc uses orzargas smoked bearhaunch or juwels of misrule over betwitchet sugar skulls or tristat food and has less than 25k stamina or magicka, many even put their attribute points into health and play with below 20k magicka/stamina. Stacking magicka is only viable on magsorc because of Hardened Ward and undaunted+bound_aegis+magelight+sorcerer passive(expert summoner,
on other classes nobody stacks max magicka. Even before ZoS converted 20% extra attributes from cp into flat mag/stam/hp stacking mag/stam was unpopular on everything except magsorc.

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Yea, imagine a new PvPer eager to learn about PvP in the game, only to realize a few months into PvP that there's so much imbalance, and he leaves. Kinda hard to retain PvP players if we treat everything as casual lol.

Imbalances like this heavily favor the meta player, widening the gap between meta builds and unoptimized casual builds. If anything, casual players and builds are more dependent on a well balanced PvP game to have any chance at all to succeed, while hardcore competitive players can easily drop whatever they're doing to go abuse the new broken thing.

One angle I'm not sure has been covered is the way stacking max mag is not only a buff to both defense and offense, but also a massive sustain buff, your 50k max mag pool lasts twice as long as the 25k mag pools everyone else is running. You simply cannot say that about stacking pen or wd/sd, only max mag sorcs efficiently get 3 entire build pillars from 1 stat.

Yea I’ve already covered that in an earlier comment when someone said stacking max mag isn’t as good as stacking spell damage. Due to the fact that stacking max mag provides effective sustain, max HP shield Sorc stacking spell damage is not as good as max mag. You can stack enough weapon dmg on HP sorc to have similar damage tooltips as a max mag sorc, but your mag pool is going to be 24-25k top. 3-4 shield casts and you’re gassed out, not to mention the Streaks you did before that. Magsorc doesn’t have this issue at all. That’s why I have to heavy attack a lot more on my HP sorc whereas a magsorc can spam shield for a decent amount of time before they gas out.

Stacking max hp not only increases your shield size(when higher than max magicka/stamina) but also other hp scaling things like sorcerers blood magic passive and increases your health pool, which for many players is reason enaugh to stack health even without healthscaling active/passive skills/sets and allows sorcerer to survive burst dmg even with shields down.

Jsmalls wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I've played around with other setups that have much better risk/reward.

Like?

This is my typical Max Magicka Setup (ignore the recoveries didn't have Torc or a potion Proc'd)




This is a less tanky damage focused setup (same thing for recoveries as above).

Damage focused sees 12% higher damage than the other setup, exact same recoveries etc for each. This is without minor sorcery from group play in which it would likely be 15% higher damage.

Max Magicka setup is tanky but isn't outputting the damage id like it too. Prefer the bottom where there is more risk but more reward.

That being said 50k magicka (without Rallying cry) doesn't make you immortal. Two good players can still burn me down just fine.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

i’m talking about how you constantly intimate to people that they suck or should keep their mouths shut because they aren’t who you consider a top player.

It keeps being intimated that myself and Static are not "real Sorcs" by players who may have enough skill to minmax their mag pool and weave Crushing Shock on a staff, but who lack the skill to survive without burst heals.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's just now something for people to talk about because they just feel like it.

Tends to happen when the game gets particularly unbalanced and people cut their playtime.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Damage focused sees 12% higher damage than the other setup

Comparable with going 64 stam vs 64 hp on a stamsorc. Doesn't this just support the argument that Ward is overpowered though? You yourself recognize that Ward doesn't even need full investment. I've been running zero investment Ward on a base 30k hp stamsorc, and it matches or exceeds the performance of Impervious on my Arc.

64 attribute points in stamina instead of hp should give a bigger damage increase than giving up 10k magicka for other dmg stats because health is a pure defensive stat that gets converted into a dmg stat while max magicka is a dmg stat that gets converted into another more effektive dmg stat. 12% dmg increase is just for going from 60k to 50k stamina, imagine how much more dmg you could get from stacking only 20-40k magicka. Getting same dmg increase from converting hp into stam/mag and stam/mag into better dmg stats means that stam/mag is only half as effective as other dmg stats. The only thing max magicka gives you when not using magscaling shields which most classes not do is a higher mag pool which doesn’t justify max magicka increasing dmg only half as much as wpn dmg.
He doesn‘t recognize that ward doesn‘t need full investment but that he prefers the build with 50k magicka because he is giving up to much dmg otherwise.

Iriidius

StaticWave wrote: »

Here is a standard magsorc build in NO CP:




Here's my max mag and max stam with 10% mag/stam passive:




Almost 50k mag with 3.7k crit resist, 4.9k spell dmg, 1.7k mag regen and 1.6k stam regen, with 29k HP

Here's a build with higher max mag that's still in No CP:





Still think that's sacrificing too much? Lemme throw on 5 medium for best armor passives:




How about 5 heavy for maximum mitigation?



27k resist front bar with 49.6k mag lol

Too slow? Let's slot Hurricane and drop Chudan for something else!



You're always going to sacrifice something to make a balanced build, but Sorc is getting it super easy with that Ward buff allowing you to slot Bound Aegis and 10% max mag passive lol

Incredible and totally OP that you can wear medium or heavy armor on magsorc without loosing max magicka when light armor doesn‘t increase max magicka at all. You are still sacrificing your food(statfood insteat orzaga, have to use wretched or roska to get back regen), mythic(ddf), mundus stone, 1 cp star, 3 juwelry traits(infused for arcane), (stam+hp from) prismatic glyphs for mag, pets, 10% hp from expert summoner and 2 skillslots to get your maximal magicka that high.

StaticWave wrote: »

Or how about a proc build? Let's use mDW/Vate/Maarselok with max mag stacking:

But somehow most sorcs using master dw and vate frost are stamsorcs. Also with hardened ward+bound aegis+magelight and twin slashes+elemental suspectability you have already lost 5 skillslots, now you also have to slot crit surge, hurricane, streak, curse and dark deal so again no skillslots for vigor or other offensive skills.

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

Who cares what .001% of the game demand? Changes are made to benefit everyone and squeaky wheels don’t always get the grease in decisions like this.
[/b]

What if the .001% is right? Does this imaginary majority of ardent ward supporters manifest somewhere or are you just assuming that because people can't be bothered to argue over something that is so obviously out of tune?

How is power creep benefiting everyone? The squeaky wheel will just keep turning until the next thing gets blessed by the "the balance is the content" - marketing gods. If you buff noobs and veterans proportionally you achieved nothing. If you buff one class over all others you hurt the majority, you don't benefit everyone.
I like to believe that we understand ZOS' balancing logic reasonably well by now and we know to weigh tooltip scaling, bar space, passive triggers, uptimes, secondary effects and their respective availability, synergies, resource costs and "fun" (for user AND opponent) against each other. The evidence is indicating that the recent tweaks to Sorc have missed their mark and that was already foreseeable on the previous PTS. I don't think anyone in this thread has asked a single time to banish Sorc to the shadow realm. The request is solely to dial back a bit of the power Ward offers right now. Why all this theater instead of arguing plainly against the evidence?

I get that in the end there is more than one solution to a situation like that. Even informed players can value different things and are willing to allocate resources in the power budget differently. But to even insinuate that certain aspects of PvP, like dueling, are not deserving of reasonable balance between classes, because you enjoy being on top or you simply don't engage with this aspect, is a very poor contribution to the discussion.

He doesn't want to accept it because he's not part of the 0.001% that actually cares about balance. You can see it through his statements dismissing other people's test results and always bringing up how "it benefits more people". The Ward change benefits him and he's trying to defend it with everything. He even brought PvE into the equation too, which is laughable because anybody with some PvE time knows Crit Surge + previous Ward was enough to get ppl through solo content, and the harder group contents are usually done with healers in the group.

He even says "you have to give up things to play a 50k magsorc", which again shows how clueless he is about U41 magsorc. The fact that Ward change is so strong it allows magsorcs to drop Vigor for Bound Aegis and get a total of 31% magicka modifier, the highest of any class in the game, makes his point invalid. Builds like these are entirely possible:









Imagine saying "you have to give up things to play a 50k magsorc", when any competent player can just hop on the Editor and see that the things you give up are negligible compared to the benefits you gain. How is it possible that a Chudan/Clever Alc/Rallying Cry build can get almost 49k max mag with 6.6k weapon dmg, decent recoveries, 29k resist back bar and 3.1k crit resist? All possible because Ward allows you to stack that extra 8% max mag lol.

The 0.001% are those who will push the limits of the class and make it OP. The casual players couldn't give 2 craps if Ward got buffed or nerfed. Heck, they probably don't even read the patch notes lol. A PvE friend of mine who sometimes do PvP just asked me why Ward is so strong now. It's been a month into the patch. She doesn't even read the notes and just enjoys the game when she logs on.

Using the argument "casual players can benefit too" is disingenuous and only aims to mask their true intention, which is to prevent any balance changes to this ability so they can enjoy for once that they aren't dying due to their lack of skill. Ward is carrying these magsorcs big time and they know it.

You call players incompetent and clueless for thinking that „you have to give up things to play a 50k hp magsorc“ when they were right and players really have to give up things to reach 50k magicka.

You are sacrificing your food(statfood insteat orzaga, have to use wretched or roska to get back regen), mythic(ddf), mundus stone, 1 cp star for mag and another for bastion, 3 juwelry traits(infused for arcane), (stam+hp from) prismatic glyphs for mag, pets, 10% hp from expert summoner and 2 skillslots to get your maximal magicka that high. You can get get 1-3k higher weapon dmg and 0-11.5k penetration when not stacking magicka(infused wpn dmg glyphs, clever alchemist, balorgh).

Hardened Ward not only allows but also forces magsorc to drop vigor for bound aegis. This and
That magsorc gets a 31% modifier to max mag which is the highest of any class doesn‘t mean that you don‘t have to give up things to play a 50k mag sorc.
A minor set boni giving 129 wpn dmg increases your dmg equal to 1350 max magicka, which is 122% of a minor set boni giving 1096 max magicka and you can get a modifier of wpn dmg of up to 140-178%(20% major brutality, 10% minor brutality/sorcery(poison or nearby dk/plar), 10-14% medium armor, 0-12% from sorcerer skills, 10% from ressoursse buff), the 131% modifier on magicka is not nearly enaugh to compensate that.

Iriidius

Jsmalls wrote: »

Rallying Cry is a carry set though.

A 13k ward and 4k heal with and without Rallying cry are two very different wards.

I don't even think a 13k ward + 4k heal (~50k magicka with bastion) is even completely out of line (without rallying cry).

It's on the upper end of crit heals but once again the majority of it is a damage shield that has different interactions.

But 60k magicka for a 16.5k ward and 7k heal. Yeah that's Overtuned.

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Rallying Cry is a carry set though.

A 13k ward and 4k heal with and without Rallying cry are two very different wards.

I don't even think a 13k ward + 4k heal (~50k magicka with bastion) is even completely out of line (without rallying cry).

It's on the upper end of crit heals but once again the majority of it is a damage shield that has different interactions.

But 60k magicka for a 16.5k ward and 7k heal. Yeah that's Overtuned.

But that's the thing, Rallying Cry is used on almost every other non-shield class. Without Rallying Cry they will explode from a decent burst combo.

Then you have magsorcs running around in Crafty/Wretched with 14k Ward and can survive just fine lol. I'm not saying those classes can't do the same, but it's much harder without the extra "HP buffer" on top.

With Rallying Cry, Sorc can still get 45k+ max mag and now have their shields be harder to remove as well.

Rallyng Cry is just much to stat dense, it is Julianos and the 5 piece bonus of Impregnable Armor in one set with both 5 piece boni as onebarable procs for whole group.
New Moon Acolyte was nerfed because according to ZoS the 5% cost increase was not enaugh drawback in group environment for 481 wpn dmg on one player, but double 5 piece for whole group is somehow ok. I dont feel like the crit resistance makes a huge difference when getting bursted by a nightblade with 125% crit dmg, but it is practically for free because even without rallyng cry has same boni as julianos.

StaticWave wrote: »

And for reference, this is my stamsorc using Balorgh/Clever/Rallying Cry, basically in the same build but specced for weapon damage and max stam:



7.4k weapon damage before balorgh, and 11774 effective power.

Here's the magsorc build in Chudan/Clever/Rallying Cry:



12037 effective power

I will have a higher effective weapon power on my stamsorc with Balorgh proc, but I'm A LOT squishier, even with a burst heal. The magsorc build has a higher base effective weapon power than me, while being A LOT tankier lol. Heck, I can even drop Chudan for Balorgh too:



Now I have a higher base effective power at 12066, and I will definitely have higher effective power with Balorgh procced, while having the same burst, same mobility, but wayyy more survivability with Ward.

How is this even fair? All it does is forces me to spec towards max mag if I want to be competitive.

So by comparing these 2 builds you want to prove that stacking magicka is more effective than stacking spell dmg althought more than half of the magicka in your magsorc build did get converted on your stamsorc not in weapon dmg but in skills not increasing your effektive power, maximal hp, mag/stam regen.
The only source of weapon dmg your stamsorc build has that your magsorc doesn’t have is infused insteat of arcane juwelry and balorgh for chudan magsorc.
Magelight and Bound Aegis granting 15% extra magicka are replaced by skills not increasing your effektive power on your stamsorc. Vibrant shroud is an AOE burstheal and therefore obviously weaker than a pure selfheal or selfshield and not much better than dark deal, so not increasing survivability much and barely worth using. Vigor however is very strong and practically a must-have for almost every class and not having a slot for it on magsorc is a disadvantage, because strong burstheal/shield isnt that strong if it also has to replace HoTs. Hurricane gives you not only major resolve but also minor expedition and aoe dmg.
Orzagas Smoked Bearhaunch gives Stamsorcerer 4k hp and 600 stam regen that magsorc doesn‘t have, to compensate this magsorc had to either also use smoked bear haunch and loose 6k max magicka or use mag+hp buffood and wretched vitality insteat of clever alchemist and loose 900 weapon dmg.
The 3 piece set bonus of rallyng cry granting 1096 max magicka is wasted on stamsorc.

Swapping orzarga with lava soup, rallyng cry mag bonus with a stam bonus and vibrant shroud with bound armaments would give stamsorc (27.7k+1.3k+6k)*(124%/116%)=37k stamina, only 6k less than balorgh magsorc has stamina while still having 500 more weapon dmg and better offensive skills. Or swap vibrant shroud/bound armament with ward still having 35k stamina. Or swap another skill with ward. Now with scribing added Stamsorc can also use real burstheal and should be closer in survivability with magsorc and other classes.

That your stamsorc with Balorgh not procced and only a faction of magsorcs magicka converted into weapon dmg has almost the same dmg as your magsorc proves how much more effective stacking weapon dmg is compared to stacking magicka.
And shieldless Sorcerers was never the most survivable class, proving that shieldsorc is more survivable than shieldless sorcerer doesnt prove that shieldsorc is overpowered. If max mag hardened ward was stronger than max health polar wind that would be op.

How is it fair that every class except magsorc is forced to spec towards weapon/spell dmg.

xylena_lazarow

Iriidius wrote: »

How is it fair that every class except magsorc is forced to spec towards weapon/spell dmg

Is this your thesis? You mean it's unfair to Sorcs or non-Sorcs? Your 3 posts were very hard to follow.

Iriidius

Zabagad wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

I'm sorry what? 95k Mag? Is that real? I could barely get mine to 52k mag, who is out here with 90-100k mag? o.o

Emporer

How much does emp give you? I've never been emp, but that still seems unrealistic. I think 60ishk is what most pro players get to, so where is the rest coming from?

As I already said - you can (in theory - never tried it in practice) even reach ~120K maxMag for 20s if you use vamp-ult and somebody gives you "war horn". But this is emperor exclusive because of the 75% increase.

Some time ago I saw a Necro Emp (must be long time ago ) with 130-140K Health when he used his pummeling ulti (+30K) + maybe war horn + maybe ayleid buff .... and then he used "Thews of the Harbinger" (I guess it was a higher % at that time and was nerfed since).
Whenever he pressed block all players around him killed themself

Yeah during MYM early 2021 I saw 170k hp necro emperor running in my direction and went away knowing if I attack him i kill myself because of Harbringer. Necro also had high speed and reached me im seconds. A seconds later I was dead with multiple 5k harbringer procs althought I didnt used any skills on him and 9k goliath aoe. Seems like he procced my hardened armor dmg return by Bashing wich procced his Harbringer.

Iriidius

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

How is it fair that every class except magsorc is forced to spec towards weapon/spell dmg

Is this your thesis? You mean it's unfair to Sorcs or non-Sorcs? Your 3 posts were very hard to follow.

It is unfair to non-Sorcs that they cant stack magicka/stamina without a big disadvantage.
Static Wave complained it is unfair that he is forced to stack magicka as a sorcerer to be competitive while every other class is forced to stack weapon dmg to be competitive and there are a lot of competitive sorcerers stacking weapon dmg including himself.

StaticWave

Iriidius wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

How is it fair that every class except magsorc is forced to spec towards weapon/spell dmg

Is this your thesis? You mean it's unfair to Sorcs or non-Sorcs? Your 3 posts were very hard to follow.

It is unfair to non-Sorcs that they cant stack magicka/stamina without a big disadvantage.
Static Wave complained it is unfair that he is forced to stack magicka as a sorcerer to be competitive while every other class is forced to stack weapon dmg to be competitive and there are a lot of competitive sorcerers stacking weapon dmg including himself.

Let me correct you.

I’m not complaining it’s unfair that I’m forced to stack magicka as a sorcerer to be competitive. I’m complaining that it’s unfair that stacking max magicka is currently the only way to be both tanky and dealing high damage.

Yes, we all know that you should also build resistances on magsorc, but Hardened Ward allows the option to just forgo that part completely. Some magsorcs I’m fighting are taking 4k+ crit light attacks. Yet they don’t seem to fold quite as easily. My stamsorc or any non-shield class for that matter will literally explode in 1s if they are taking 4k + crit light attacks.

Btw, you can also build high spell damage now. Competitive healing options are no longer absent on magsorc. There’s contingency, healing soul, and Vibrant Shroud with new Blood Magic. If you choose to go with an “inferior” stat option, that is ON YOU. It’s not a valid argument anymore to defend Ward’s overperformance.