Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@Jsmalls thanks! For context, what was your own dps? Doesn't have to be full breakdown, just total.

It would seem from these numbers that you have no trouble surviving relatively high damage without a burst heal, and that max mag scaling shields are strong on their own without a healing component. This supports my earlier assertion that the buffs to Sorc's mag pool via better passives and better stat sets have been sufficient to revitalize the MagSorc archetype, and that adding a large burst heal on top of an already strong shield is simply unnecessary.

Hard to say the actual, CMX was 2800-3500 but my buddy was a DK using wings so two of my abilities were only doing half damage.

And really this proves nothing other than damage shields will always show as a LARGE component of your HPS because of the way they function.

Once again last patch no one was complaining about Hardened Ward. Legit no one. And it was still doing 80% of Sorcs HPS (depending on the setup).

So to say all of a sudden that Ward is doing too much because it's a large contributing factor of the total HPS of bogus.

It may be true that Ward is doing too much, but CMX HPS % contribution isn't a reliable source to determine that.

All that being said, this was a DUEL. I don't think anyone was saying Hardened Ward was useless in a duel last patch. It was semi-competitive but a step behind other healing sources.

Open world XvX situations Ward was "weak" last patch. Now maybe it should be because mobility should be used instead. BUT THAT'S NOT HOW ZoS has been portraying it to us. Nightblades have healthy offering and Wardens have polar wind. They are both extremely mobile classes and can also be extremely tanky with good damage.

Ward absolutely needs to be modified, but Wardens and Nightblades need to be modified that same patch.

If Dampen was my only option in Open world I'd quit the game (or more realistically change specs or roll Warden). We're not trying to kill Mag Sorcs here we're trying to balance them.

Bushido2513

DaisyRay wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

See this is exactly where a bit of my issue lies

Your issue is that Jsmalls isn't "casual" enough for you?

@DaisyRay posted her experience moving from a casual build to a max mag minmax build. Please read.

Honestly I don't know if jsmalls is a casual, complete noob, or 1vx specialist. What I believe is that the experiences of the smaller percentage of players shouldn't be used to set guidelines for the larger percentage of players.

DaisyRay sounds like the other part of the issue which I see on both sides where the description is a bit more exaggerated with less actual details. This isn't to say that I've changed my views on the value of player generated data accounts but just that exaggerated accounts aren't as helpful either.

I don't think I was exaggerating. I can make a video if you'd like. I've noticed a huge difference in the ward skill depending on how much mag I use, and I am not a pro pvper of any kind.

I wish it wasn't true because I don't really want things to change. I've never survived this well before. However, I can see how it's op in the wrong hands. I can see this being a problem for some groups, especially those who cheese their builds. At first, I was very much against the nerf because it didn't seem that bad. But when I tested it and changed my build to max mag, the difference was extremely noticeable.

I would honestly just invite everyone else to do that too and you'll see.

When I say exaggerating I'm just speaking of using terms like "crazy strong". Not to say don't say something in your own words but I'm just thinking that when I read that it doesn't exactly tell me much being that I don't know what crazy strong is to you vs what it is to me. It's kind of like when someone labels a build video unkillable. We all know all builds are killable and what you really mean is to some degree harder to kill but even that's a range depending on who you ask.

Honestly there's no good way to exactly put it since everything is objective. I'm just more so saying the stronger the language, the more polarizing the thoughts. I just don't think this change is in the range of polarizing but that's just me.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DaisyRay sounds like the other part of the issue which I see on both sides where the description is a bit more exaggerated with less actual details. This isn't to say that I've changed my views on the value of player generated data accounts but just that exaggerated accounts aren't as helpful either.

She provided a more in-depth analysis earlier ITT somehwere. But if you look at this thread as a whole, it's got pretty good representation of casual and competitive players, different playstyles and classes, different regions and servers. That's why each individual account is worthwhile, they add up.

Okay how many individual accounts do you think we have here and how many players on all platforms do you think there are? I'm just going to guess that the number of people here will add up to around .1 percent of the player base. Can .1 really represent the other .99 well?

Also keep in mind that .1 is divided within itself to pro, neutral, and against the ward change so do that math and we'll still see we don't have much representation at all.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell you what. I think it would get my point across better if the magsorc mains in this thread try fighting a magsorc as ANOTHER class. It would really make arguing with yall a lot easier when you can experience what it’s like to fight your own class lol.

This will really depend on your end goal for the fight or gameplay session and that's a point I think is being left out. Your build is going to depend on your playstyle or confidence on that class but that can vary wildly and so what does that really tell us about anything?

Most of my builds tend to be geared towards survival with an ability to take out some opponents and to gang up on others. I'm planning on a win, a stalemate, or a win using numbers. So for me fighting any class using any class goes about the same. Does that mean my view or way of fighting is better or worse, not really. Should we use my style as a benchmark for ward in any way shape or form, absolutely not because that wouldn't take into account others that don't play the way I do.


So when you present samples and say look at this. I can only say ok that applies to any player that plays the way you do, uses a build similar to yours, and is in fights like the one you're representing. What I don't know is how many players out of the player base that would amount to.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

Open world XvX situations Ward was "weak" last patch. Now maybe it should be because mobility should be used instead.

Yes, been saying that. Also been saying Healthy and Polar should be nerfed alongside Ward.

Jsmalls wrote: »

If Dampen was my only option in Open world I'd quit the game (or more realistically change specs or roll Warden). We're not trying to kill Mag Sorcs here we're trying to balance them.

If you can 1v1 with only Dampen, you can do that in open world using mobility and LoS, probably also replace dead button Bound Aegis with either Vigor, Shroud, Dampen, Harness, or Healing Ward. Remember when MagSorcs shield stacked? That's how I started out in Sorc in 2016 (?), as shield stack MagSorc, before I fell in love with StamSorc.

Those same MagSorcs were considered overpowered and worthy of nerfing, despite not having a burst heal on Ward, and needing two active slots to recover. So say we went back to that, worst case scenario you're running around with something like a 13-14k Dampen and Resolving Vigor? You think that's unplayable? Seriously, give it a try.

DrNukenstein

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So how do you balance this? You make the knives super strong to overcome the inherent disadvantage, and make the guns a fair amount weaker than guns normally would be (even shooters do this).

This true. Most shooters allow you the player to stay functional after taking 4+bullets to the torso

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So how do you balance this? You make the knives super strong to overcome the inherent disadvantage, and make the guns a fair amount weaker than guns normally would be (even shooters do this).

This true. Most shooters allow you the player to stay functional after taking 4+bullets to the torso

Yes but at that point everyone has guns and so knives become a bit more of the option than the only choice you have. Also you usually have to or are assumed to have equipped body armor to be this durable.

DaisyRay

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

See this is exactly where a bit of my issue lies

Your issue is that Jsmalls isn't "casual" enough for you?

@DaisyRay posted her experience moving from a casual build to a max mag minmax build. Please read.

Honestly I don't know if jsmalls is a casual, complete noob, or 1vx specialist. What I believe is that the experiences of the smaller percentage of players shouldn't be used to set guidelines for the larger percentage of players.

DaisyRay sounds like the other part of the issue which I see on both sides where the description is a bit more exaggerated with less actual details. This isn't to say that I've changed my views on the value of player generated data accounts but just that exaggerated accounts aren't as helpful either.

I don't think I was exaggerating. I can make a video if you'd like. I've noticed a huge difference in the ward skill depending on how much mag I use, and I am not a pro pvper of any kind.

I wish it wasn't true because I don't really want things to change. I've never survived this well before. However, I can see how it's op in the wrong hands. I can see this being a problem for some groups, especially those who cheese their builds. At first, I was very much against the nerf because it didn't seem that bad. But when I tested it and changed my build to max mag, the difference was extremely noticeable.

I would honestly just invite everyone else to do that too and you'll see.

When I say exaggerating I'm just speaking of using terms like "crazy strong". Not to say don't say something in your own words but I'm just thinking that when I read that it doesn't exactly tell me much being that I don't know what crazy strong is to you vs what it is to me. It's kind of like when someone labels a build video unkillable. We all know all builds are killable and what you really mean is to some degree harder to kill but even that's a range depending on who you ask.

Honestly there's no good way to exactly put it since everything is objective. I'm just more so saying the stronger the language, the more polarizing the thoughts. I just don't think this change is in the range of polarizing but that's just me.

That's my fault then. When I say it's crazy strong, I mean it gives a bigger shield and heal for my sorc. Today, I tried something new by changing my tank from being health-heavy (45k health) to being mag-heavy (42k mag and 31k health).

This is my negate tank build, and with a few changes to give her more mag than health, she is even tankier because of the ward skill. I still die because I'm not as tanky as the EP tanks, but I've been running into full-on zergs and comps, and surviving much longer with more mag.

That's just with 42k mag, I can't imagine if I got my negate tank to 52k mag like my dps. I'd get more hate whispers than I do already. On my dps, it's even worse because not only am I tanky, but I'm also deadly. Lol some people are even shocked now, I've had a few people attack me, then see how hard I hit them and turn back around. It makes me giggle. ;p

Chilly-McFreeze

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If the goal is to make magsorc playable, then why make it overpowered? Magsorc currently has everything. Tankiness, sustain, damage, elusiveness, range advantage. Why do we insist that it’s ok?

@Jsmalls just (unintentionally) proved you can survive 5k dps with only Dampen Magicka, no burst heal needed.

Then why did people complain about magsorcs defense up until U41?

xylena_lazarow

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Then why did people complain about magsorcs defense up until U41?

Didn't? The big shield with no heal on it is balanced, that's why nobody complained.

DrNukenstein

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Yes but at that point everyone has guns and so knives become a bit more of the option than the only choice you have. Also you usually have to or are assumed to have equipped body armor to be this durable.

TBH that's a pretty measured take on why knives hurt so much relative to guns in those games. Anti ballistic body armor is actually weak to slash damage.

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Yes but at that point everyone has guns and so knives become a bit more of the option than the only choice you have. Also you usually have to or are assumed to have equipped body armor to be this durable.

TBH that's a pretty measured take on why knives hurt so much relative to guns in those games. Anti ballistic body armor is actually weak to slash damage.

I was speaking of why a player could take 4 shots and keep going. I mean it's all not realistic of course but I was just trying to add the context of why that might be the case according to the game world. I've always thought knives hurt so much as a reward for getting close up vs using your gun which is what the other poster was getting at. I was just saying though in a game where it's all guns then yes while one person may not hit as hard, multiples might and so it's an option to use the knife but not really the best choice in most cases.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Then why did people complain about magsorcs defense up until U41?

Didn't? The big shield with no heal on it is balanced, that's why nobody complained.

There were definitely complaints. Not to the level of oh it's trash or anything like that but as an easy example you were always hard pressed to escape execute range. You were also dealing with dark deal and the chance of getting interrupted on a much needed heal with no block casting either. Those were just a couple but yeah the defense had issues.

Bushido2513

DaisyRay wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

See this is exactly where a bit of my issue lies

Your issue is that Jsmalls isn't "casual" enough for you?

@DaisyRay posted her experience moving from a casual build to a max mag minmax build. Please read.

Honestly I don't know if jsmalls is a casual, complete noob, or 1vx specialist. What I believe is that the experiences of the smaller percentage of players shouldn't be used to set guidelines for the larger percentage of players.

DaisyRay sounds like the other part of the issue which I see on both sides where the description is a bit more exaggerated with less actual details. This isn't to say that I've changed my views on the value of player generated data accounts but just that exaggerated accounts aren't as helpful either.

I don't think I was exaggerating. I can make a video if you'd like. I've noticed a huge difference in the ward skill depending on how much mag I use, and I am not a pro pvper of any kind.

I wish it wasn't true because I don't really want things to change. I've never survived this well before. However, I can see how it's op in the wrong hands. I can see this being a problem for some groups, especially those who cheese their builds. At first, I was very much against the nerf because it didn't seem that bad. But when I tested it and changed my build to max mag, the difference was extremely noticeable.

I would honestly just invite everyone else to do that too and you'll see.

When I say exaggerating I'm just speaking of using terms like "crazy strong". Not to say don't say something in your own words but I'm just thinking that when I read that it doesn't exactly tell me much being that I don't know what crazy strong is to you vs what it is to me. It's kind of like when someone labels a build video unkillable. We all know all builds are killable and what you really mean is to some degree harder to kill but even that's a range depending on who you ask.

Honestly there's no good way to exactly put it since everything is objective. I'm just more so saying the stronger the language, the more polarizing the thoughts. I just don't think this change is in the range of polarizing but that's just me.

That's my fault then. When I say it's crazy strong, I mean it gives a bigger shield and heal for my sorc. Today, I tried something new by changing my tank from being health-heavy (45k health) to being mag-heavy (42k mag and 31k health).

This is my negate tank build, and with a few changes to give her more mag than health, she is even tankier because of the ward skill. I still die because I'm not as tanky as the EP tanks, but I've been running into full-on zergs and comps, and surviving much longer with more mag.

That's just with 42k mag, I can't imagine if I got my negate tank to 52k mag like my dps. I'd get more hate whispers than I do already. On my dps, it's even worse because not only am I tanky, but I'm also deadly. Lol some people are even shocked now, I've had a few people attack me, then see how hard I hit them and turn back around. It makes me giggle. ;p

@DaisyRay

Thanks for the clarification and feedback. I did have some questions.

Are you playing solo, small group, or larger group?

When you say you're deadly are you hitting back and getting many more kill then you normally would?

If grouped, are you moving away from your group and engaging others on your own or are you usually staying with your group?

When you die is it it more due to multiple attackers or single attackers? Big hits or a lot of damage just adding up?

DaisyRay

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

See this is exactly where a bit of my issue lies

Your issue is that Jsmalls isn't "casual" enough for you?

@DaisyRay posted her experience moving from a casual build to a max mag minmax build. Please read.

Honestly I don't know if jsmalls is a casual, complete noob, or 1vx specialist. What I believe is that the experiences of the smaller percentage of players shouldn't be used to set guidelines for the larger percentage of players.

DaisyRay sounds like the other part of the issue which I see on both sides where the description is a bit more exaggerated with less actual details. This isn't to say that I've changed my views on the value of player generated data accounts but just that exaggerated accounts aren't as helpful either.

I don't think I was exaggerating. I can make a video if you'd like. I've noticed a huge difference in the ward skill depending on how much mag I use, and I am not a pro pvper of any kind.

I wish it wasn't true because I don't really want things to change. I've never survived this well before. However, I can see how it's op in the wrong hands. I can see this being a problem for some groups, especially those who cheese their builds. At first, I was very much against the nerf because it didn't seem that bad. But when I tested it and changed my build to max mag, the difference was extremely noticeable.

I would honestly just invite everyone else to do that too and you'll see.

When I say exaggerating I'm just speaking of using terms like "crazy strong". Not to say don't say something in your own words but I'm just thinking that when I read that it doesn't exactly tell me much being that I don't know what crazy strong is to you vs what it is to me. It's kind of like when someone labels a build video unkillable. We all know all builds are killable and what you really mean is to some degree harder to kill but even that's a range depending on who you ask.

Honestly there's no good way to exactly put it since everything is objective. I'm just more so saying the stronger the language, the more polarizing the thoughts. I just don't think this change is in the range of polarizing but that's just me.

That's my fault then. When I say it's crazy strong, I mean it gives a bigger shield and heal for my sorc. Today, I tried something new by changing my tank from being health-heavy (45k health) to being mag-heavy (42k mag and 31k health).

This is my negate tank build, and with a few changes to give her more mag than health, she is even tankier because of the ward skill. I still die because I'm not as tanky as the EP tanks, but I've been running into full-on zergs and comps, and surviving much longer with more mag.

That's just with 42k mag, I can't imagine if I got my negate tank to 52k mag like my dps. I'd get more hate whispers than I do already. On my dps, it's even worse because not only am I tanky, but I'm also deadly. Lol some people are even shocked now, I've had a few people attack me, then see how hard I hit them and turn back around. It makes me giggle. ;p

@DaisyRay

Thanks for the clarification and feedback. I did have some questions.

Are you playing solo, small group, or larger group?

When you say you're deadly are you hitting back and getting many more kill then you normally would?

If grouped, are you moving away from your group and engaging others on your own or are you usually staying with your group?

When you die is it it more due to multiple attackers or single attackers? Big hits or a lot of damage just adding up?

Q: Are you playing solo, small group, or larger group?

A: Both. I mostly play solo until my raids start. I play with three different guilds, and their raid times vary. So, half the time I'm either solo or zerging. Sometimes, I go after keeps or resources on my own, and other times I zerg with AD. This applies to both my DPS and tank roles.

Q: When you say you're deadly, are you hitting back and getting more kills than you normally would?

A: For sure, lol. Usually, when I'm solo, I have a harder time with most players because I was so squishy. Now, I can defend myself. I'm not a super OP fighter, but I think I'm decent enough for an average pvper. Having this new defense has kept me alive long enough to actually deal damage. Before this, I was often forced to stay on defense. People hit so hard. This is noticeable to me because, as I mentioned, I'm mostly solo. I'm also stubborn, so I'm the person pushing out to fight groups or zergs that I have no chance against. I've noticed how my survivability has changed and allowed me to be more offensive.

Q: If grouped, are you moving away from your group and engaging others on your own, or are you usually staying with your group?

A: Both. I'm actually terrible at staying with my group and crown, it's a running joke. Which is even funnier since I'm the speeder for my newest raid group. I get distracted a lot and go off to take resources, chase people, or just get lost because I saw a flower I wanted.

Q: When you die, is it more due to multiple attackers or single attackers? Big hits or a lot of damage just adding up?

A: Again, it's both. Just because I have better defenses doesn't mean I don't die to 1v1 sometimes. However, this is usually because the other person was better than me, not because my shield wasn't enough. This is why I mentioned that skilled pvpers could really abuse this and become unkillable. Though I also do run headfirst into groups, so yeah, both.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

There were definitely complaints. Not to the level of oh it's trash or anything like that but as an easy example you were always hard pressed to escape execute range.

That's the intended drawback of shields. In exchange for being able to preload, it's harder to recover.

DaisyRay

I just reread the first question, but my reply is the same. I said both because on my speed build, my shield isn't the most used skill. My small raid group usually consists of about twelve people, sometimes less and sometimes a little more. My big raid group usually has twenty-four to thirty-six, sometimes less or more.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell you what. I think it would get my point across better if the magsorc mains in this thread try fighting a magsorc as ANOTHER class. It would really make arguing with yall a lot easier when you can experience what it’s like to fight your own class lol.

This will really depend on your end goal for the fight or gameplay session and that's a point I think is being left out. Your build is going to depend on your playstyle or confidence on that class but that can vary wildly and so what does that really tell us about anything?

Most of my builds tend to be geared towards survival with an ability to take out some opponents and to gang up on others. I'm planning on a win, a stalemate, or a win using numbers. So for me fighting any class using any class goes about the same. Does that mean my view or way of fighting is better or worse, not really. Should we use my style as a benchmark for ward in any way shape or form, absolutely not because that wouldn't take into account others that don't play the way I do.


So when you present samples and say look at this. I can only say ok that applies to any player that plays the way you do, uses a build similar to yours, and is in fights like the one you're representing. What I don't know is how many players out of the player base that would amount to.

You’re dancing around the request Bushido. It’s a simple request

The end goal is to get kills. Every class will have a BiS build or a list of good builds to choose from.

So my request is any magsorc main here needs to hop on another class and use the respective BiS build for said class, then fight several magsorcs with BiS builds ranging from casual to top tier. Then come back here and tell everyone their experience so we can have a more accurate argument.

Bushido2513

DaisyRay wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

See this is exactly where a bit of my issue lies

Your issue is that Jsmalls isn't "casual" enough for you?

@DaisyRay posted her experience moving from a casual build to a max mag minmax build. Please read.

Honestly I don't know if jsmalls is a casual, complete noob, or 1vx specialist. What I believe is that the experiences of the smaller percentage of players shouldn't be used to set guidelines for the larger percentage of players.

DaisyRay sounds like the other part of the issue which I see on both sides where the description is a bit more exaggerated with less actual details. This isn't to say that I've changed my views on the value of player generated data accounts but just that exaggerated accounts aren't as helpful either.

I don't think I was exaggerating. I can make a video if you'd like. I've noticed a huge difference in the ward skill depending on how much mag I use, and I am not a pro pvper of any kind.

I wish it wasn't true because I don't really want things to change. I've never survived this well before. However, I can see how it's op in the wrong hands. I can see this being a problem for some groups, especially those who cheese their builds. At first, I was very much against the nerf because it didn't seem that bad. But when I tested it and changed my build to max mag, the difference was extremely noticeable.

I would honestly just invite everyone else to do that too and you'll see.

When I say exaggerating I'm just speaking of using terms like "crazy strong". Not to say don't say something in your own words but I'm just thinking that when I read that it doesn't exactly tell me much being that I don't know what crazy strong is to you vs what it is to me. It's kind of like when someone labels a build video unkillable. We all know all builds are killable and what you really mean is to some degree harder to kill but even that's a range depending on who you ask.

Honestly there's no good way to exactly put it since everything is objective. I'm just more so saying the stronger the language, the more polarizing the thoughts. I just don't think this change is in the range of polarizing but that's just me.

That's my fault then. When I say it's crazy strong, I mean it gives a bigger shield and heal for my sorc. Today, I tried something new by changing my tank from being health-heavy (45k health) to being mag-heavy (42k mag and 31k health).

This is my negate tank build, and with a few changes to give her more mag than health, she is even tankier because of the ward skill. I still die because I'm not as tanky as the EP tanks, but I've been running into full-on zergs and comps, and surviving much longer with more mag.

That's just with 42k mag, I can't imagine if I got my negate tank to 52k mag like my dps. I'd get more hate whispers than I do already. On my dps, it's even worse because not only am I tanky, but I'm also deadly. Lol some people are even shocked now, I've had a few people attack me, then see how hard I hit them and turn back around. It makes me giggle. ;p

@DaisyRay

Thanks for the clarification and feedback. I did have some questions.

Are you playing solo, small group, or larger group?

When you say you're deadly are you hitting back and getting many more kill then you normally would?

If grouped, are you moving away from your group and engaging others on your own or are you usually staying with your group?

When you die is it it more due to multiple attackers or single attackers? Big hits or a lot of damage just adding up?

Q: Are you playing solo, small group, or larger group?

A: Both. I mostly play solo until my raids start. I play with three different guilds, and their raid times vary. So, half the time I'm either solo or zerging. Sometimes, I go after keeps or resources on my own, and other times I zerg with AD. This applies to both my DPS and tank roles.

Q: When you say you're deadly, are you hitting back and getting more kills than you normally would?

A: For sure, lol. Usually, when I'm solo, I have a harder time with most players because I was so squishy. Now, I can defend myself. I'm not a super OP fighter, but I think I'm decent enough for an average pvper. Having this new defense has kept me alive long enough to actually deal damage. Before this, I was often forced to stay on defense. People hit so hard. This is noticeable to me because, as I mentioned, I'm mostly solo. I'm also stubborn, so I'm the person pushing out to fight groups or zergs that I have no chance against. I've noticed how my survivability has changed and allowed me to be more offensive.

Q: If grouped, are you moving away from your group and engaging others on your own, or are you usually staying with your group?

A: Both. I'm actually terrible at staying with my group and crown, it's a running joke. Which is even funnier since I'm the speeder for my newest raid group. I get distracted a lot and go off to take resources, chase people, or just get lost because I saw a flower I wanted.

Q: When you die, is it more due to multiple attackers or single attackers? Big hits or a lot of damage just adding up?

A: Again, it's both. Just because I have better defenses doesn't mean I don't die to 1v1 sometimes. However, this is usually because the other person was better than me, not because my shield wasn't enough. This is why I mentioned that skilled pvpers could really abuse this and become unkillable. Though I also do run headfirst into groups, so yeah, both.

Thanks for such detailed answers and I really appreciate your time.

See I feel like this gives a way better understanding than the other post. I feel like yes your defense was a lot stronger but that it also seemed to allow you to enjoy playing sorc a lot more. You were harder to kill as intended but not unkillable at all. Yes great players will take this a lot further but who's to say if that's too far in the game as it is right now.

Either way I appreciate you sharing and I'm glad to hear some of the positive experiences of the change though maybe it wasn't that way for those facing you lol.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

There were definitely complaints. Not to the level of oh it's trash or anything like that but as an easy example you were always hard pressed to escape execute range.

That's the intended drawback of shields. In exchange for being able to preload, it's harder to recover.

I'm not sure if I've ever seen it noted as such. My understanding was more so that shields were there as a defensive answer for magic users that obviously lacked the stam to block/roll dodge as the please. Maybe Arc was when they changed their minds and said shield users should be able to recover then, who knows.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell you what. I think it would get my point across better if the magsorc mains in this thread try fighting a magsorc as ANOTHER class. It would really make arguing with yall a lot easier when you can experience what it’s like to fight your own class lol.

This will really depend on your end goal for the fight or gameplay session and that's a point I think is being left out. Your build is going to depend on your playstyle or confidence on that class but that can vary wildly and so what does that really tell us about anything?

Most of my builds tend to be geared towards survival with an ability to take out some opponents and to gang up on others. I'm planning on a win, a stalemate, or a win using numbers. So for me fighting any class using any class goes about the same. Does that mean my view or way of fighting is better or worse, not really. Should we use my style as a benchmark for ward in any way shape or form, absolutely not because that wouldn't take into account others that don't play the way I do.


So when you present samples and say look at this. I can only say ok that applies to any player that plays the way you do, uses a build similar to yours, and is in fights like the one you're representing. What I don't know is how many players out of the player base that would amount to.

You’re dancing around the request Bushido. It’s a simple request

The end goal is to get kills. Every class will have a BiS build or a list of good builds to choose from.

So my request is any magsorc main here needs to hop on another class and use the respective BiS build for said class, then fight several magsorcs with BiS builds ranging from casual to top tier. Then come back here and tell everyone their experience so we can have a more accurate argument.

Ok so before I go and do this test I just want to know. Does ganking count and does zerging/using overwhelming numbers to kill them count?

Because if you just want me to fight them 1v1 I've already said I believe they have an advantage there but that the game isn't balanced behind this so it's relatively unimportant.

TechMaybeHic

I went back to my templar after having fun with sorc for a bit. It has been my main since beta; afterall. I've even gone back to it before after playing NB, and DK quite a bit; and even after their peak, it felt like I just played better on plar. Not this time. The range outside of the mass pull radius into squish bomb and burst from there, and now an ability to spam under heavy pressure. Sustain even seems a lot easier.

But I am not sold that the heal on the shield is what does it. The heal itself is small, but in one GCD with it on top of the shield and still having vigor; it just makes room to recover and not just be pressured on your back foot. The problem as I see it is, somehow sorc and NB has been deemed OK to have damage, elusiveness, AND healing/mitigation; while other classes are either just big stupid heals like warden when they stack health, or honestly even templar with living dark, vigor, HTD, and ER. But the other classes have to spend multiple GCDs and/or their offensive burst capability is lacking, and mobility requires dedicated investment.

Its not that sorc is OP necessarily. Its just the pure, uneven treatment from the haves, and have nots. I haven't even gotten into necros which was my 2nd favorite class to play after Templar. Its just plain stupid to hear them say "well necro was supposed to be a debuff class" yet some classes have literally everything.

Chilly-McFreeze

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Then why did people complain about magsorcs defense up until U41?

Didn't? The big shield with no heal on it is balanced, that's why nobody complained.

I'm leaning myself a bit out of the window here bc I didn't double check but I remember that even people ITT that find the Ward buff OP asked for a better heal on sorc. Be it via cast time removal on dark deal, max offensive stat scaling for Blood Magic, more reliable Crit Surge, etc. By that logic sorc's defense must have been missing something then.
If I find the time, I will crawl through some old threads.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

The end goal is to get kills.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Then why did people complain about magsorcs defense up until U41?

Didn't? The big shield with no heal on it is balanced, that's why nobody complained.

I'm leaning myself a bit out of the window here bc I didn't double check but I remember that even people ITT that find the Ward buff OP asked for a better heal on sorc. Be it via cast time removal on dark deal, max offensive stat scaling for Blood Magic, more reliable Crit Surge, etc. By that logic sorc's defense must have been missing something then.
If I find the time, I will crawl through some old threads.

You can go and look but it's well documented that better healing was requested. There were ideas like a morpho of DD that gave less resources but with an instant heal or just to have DD be uninterrupted. Making crit surge more reliable was indeed another one.

Though to be fair even some of those that wanted something, didn't want what the current ward became. If you ask me though people should just know this is how zos responds to things. Sometimes it's something you didn't ask for and sometimes it's a version of what you asked for. It's like having one of those messed up djins that grants wishes but likes to mess with you at the same time.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell you what. I think it would get my point across better if the magsorc mains in this thread try fighting a magsorc as ANOTHER class. It would really make arguing with yall a lot easier when you can experience what it’s like to fight your own class lol.

This will really depend on your end goal for the fight or gameplay session and that's a point I think is being left out. Your build is going to depend on your playstyle or confidence on that class but that can vary wildly and so what does that really tell us about anything?

Most of my builds tend to be geared towards survival with an ability to take out some opponents and to gang up on others. I'm planning on a win, a stalemate, or a win using numbers. So for me fighting any class using any class goes about the same. Does that mean my view or way of fighting is better or worse, not really. Should we use my style as a benchmark for ward in any way shape or form, absolutely not because that wouldn't take into account others that don't play the way I do.


So when you present samples and say look at this. I can only say ok that applies to any player that plays the way you do, uses a build similar to yours, and is in fights like the one you're representing. What I don't know is how many players out of the player base that would amount to.

You’re dancing around the request Bushido. It’s a simple request

The end goal is to get kills. Every class will have a BiS build or a list of good builds to choose from.

So my request is any magsorc main here needs to hop on another class and use the respective BiS build for said class, then fight several magsorcs with BiS builds ranging from casual to top tier. Then come back here and tell everyone their experience so we can have a more accurate argument.

Ok so before I go and do this test I just want to know. Does ganking count and does zerging/using overwhelming numbers to kill them count?

Because if you just want me to fight them 1v1 I've already said I believe they have an advantage there but that the game isn't balanced behind this so it's relatively unimportant.

Yes, everything counts

StaticWave

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Then why did people complain about magsorcs defense up until U41?

Didn't? The big shield with no heal on it is balanced, that's why nobody complained.

I'm leaning myself a bit out of the window here bc I didn't double check but I remember that even people ITT that find the Ward buff OP asked for a better heal on sorc. Be it via cast time removal on dark deal, max offensive stat scaling for Blood Magic, more reliable Crit Surge, etc. By that logic sorc's defense must have been missing something then.
If I find the time, I will crawl through some old threads.

Yes, I was actually one of the people suggesting for a healing buff for Sorc. I suggested a few things, such as:

1) Rework Blood Magic to scale with offensive stat instead of max HP
- At 30k HP, my Blood Magic tooltip is 3k. If the scaling was changed to max magicka or stamina instead, then you'd have a very competitive tooltip that could give Sorc the healing it needs.

2) Rework 1 morph of Dark Conversion.
- Having 1 morph be an instant cast burst heal with a fixed tooltip, somewhere between 10-12k, but stripped of the resource sustain, will provide the class the healing it needs without giving it a GCD advantage. You could add an extra effect on that too, like Minor Berserk and Minor Force or something.

3) More crit chance
- Having more crit chance will buff your offense AND defense. At 40% crit rate, you can reliably proc Crit Surge already. If Sorc was able to stack 50%+ crit chance like it used to, then you won't need to rework Crit Surge at all. Just having Hurricane/Boundless and a few DoTs applied on ppl will be enough to proc Surge every second. That's a lot of extra healing that will help Sorc's survivability

Sorc's defense was missing a bit of healing, but not to the extent that we have with U41 Ward. U41 Ward is simply TOO STRONG, especially when combined with the extra 10-18% max mag on top. Honestly, the burst heal would be ok if Sorc didn't get an extra 18% max mag this patch lol. So if people don't want it removed, then we 100% need to reduce that max mag. You can't have both damage and survivability buffed in 1 patch.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell you what. I think it would get my point across better if the magsorc mains in this thread try fighting a magsorc as ANOTHER class. It would really make arguing with yall a lot easier when you can experience what it’s like to fight your own class lol.

This will really depend on your end goal for the fight or gameplay session and that's a point I think is being left out. Your build is going to depend on your playstyle or confidence on that class but that can vary wildly and so what does that really tell us about anything?

Most of my builds tend to be geared towards survival with an ability to take out some opponents and to gang up on others. I'm planning on a win, a stalemate, or a win using numbers. So for me fighting any class using any class goes about the same. Does that mean my view or way of fighting is better or worse, not really. Should we use my style as a benchmark for ward in any way shape or form, absolutely not because that wouldn't take into account others that don't play the way I do.


So when you present samples and say look at this. I can only say ok that applies to any player that plays the way you do, uses a build similar to yours, and is in fights like the one you're representing. What I don't know is how many players out of the player base that would amount to.

You’re dancing around the request Bushido. It’s a simple request

The end goal is to get kills. Every class will have a BiS build or a list of good builds to choose from.

So my request is any magsorc main here needs to hop on another class and use the respective BiS build for said class, then fight several magsorcs with BiS builds ranging from casual to top tier. Then come back here and tell everyone their experience so we can have a more accurate argument.

Ok so before I go and do this test I just want to know. Does ganking count and does zerging/using overwhelming numbers to kill them count?

Because if you just want me to fight them 1v1 I've already said I believe they have an advantage there but that the game isn't balanced behind this so it's relatively unimportant.

Yes, everything counts

Oh also how am I supposed to know their builds and if they are casual or top tier? I could zerg surf on a tanky plar with high regen and just spam beam and turtle up as needed but if I just wait till 3 other people get them low I'm not really going to know much about their build or skill level.

So maybe your test is already asking something that's not easily known or that's going to leave it to the judgement of the tester, which isn't exactly a reliable test no?

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell you what. I think it would get my point across better if the magsorc mains in this thread try fighting a magsorc as ANOTHER class. It would really make arguing with yall a lot easier when you can experience what it’s like to fight your own class lol.

This will really depend on your end goal for the fight or gameplay session and that's a point I think is being left out. Your build is going to depend on your playstyle or confidence on that class but that can vary wildly and so what does that really tell us about anything?

Most of my builds tend to be geared towards survival with an ability to take out some opponents and to gang up on others. I'm planning on a win, a stalemate, or a win using numbers. So for me fighting any class using any class goes about the same. Does that mean my view or way of fighting is better or worse, not really. Should we use my style as a benchmark for ward in any way shape or form, absolutely not because that wouldn't take into account others that don't play the way I do.


So when you present samples and say look at this. I can only say ok that applies to any player that plays the way you do, uses a build similar to yours, and is in fights like the one you're representing. What I don't know is how many players out of the player base that would amount to.

You’re dancing around the request Bushido. It’s a simple request

The end goal is to get kills. Every class will have a BiS build or a list of good builds to choose from.

So my request is any magsorc main here needs to hop on another class and use the respective BiS build for said class, then fight several magsorcs with BiS builds ranging from casual to top tier. Then come back here and tell everyone their experience so we can have a more accurate argument.

Ok so before I go and do this test I just want to know. Does ganking count and does zerging/using overwhelming numbers to kill them count?

Because if you just want me to fight them 1v1 I've already said I believe they have an advantage there but that the game isn't balanced behind this so it's relatively unimportant.

Yes, everything counts

Oh also how am I supposed to know their builds and if they are casual or top tier? I could zerg surf on a tanky plar with high regen and just spam beam and turtle up as needed but if I just wait till 3 other people get them low I'm not really going to know much about their build or skill level.

So maybe your test is already asking something that's not easily known or that's going to leave it to the judgement of the tester, which isn't exactly a reliable test no?

…. Are you telling me you don’t know if someone is casual or top tier? Cmon you can’t be serious.

If you’re a decent player you should have the capacity to detect a top tier player based on how they fight you. If what you said about your skill level was true, then this shouldn’t have to be explained.

Casual player = they die to you without much resistance and can’t consistently get you lower than 80% HP if they’re one of those players that build tanky. Top tier player = they give you a run for your money and is a super difficult fight.

TechMaybeHic

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell you what. I think it would get my point across better if the magsorc mains in this thread try fighting a magsorc as ANOTHER class. It would really make arguing with yall a lot easier when you can experience what it’s like to fight your own class lol.

This will really depend on your end goal for the fight or gameplay session and that's a point I think is being left out. Your build is going to depend on your playstyle or confidence on that class but that can vary wildly and so what does that really tell us about anything?

Most of my builds tend to be geared towards survival with an ability to take out some opponents and to gang up on others. I'm planning on a win, a stalemate, or a win using numbers. So for me fighting any class using any class goes about the same. Does that mean my view or way of fighting is better or worse, not really. Should we use my style as a benchmark for ward in any way shape or form, absolutely not because that wouldn't take into account others that don't play the way I do.


So when you present samples and say look at this. I can only say ok that applies to any player that plays the way you do, uses a build similar to yours, and is in fights like the one you're representing. What I don't know is how many players out of the player base that would amount to.

You’re dancing around the request Bushido. It’s a simple request

The end goal is to get kills. Every class will have a BiS build or a list of good builds to choose from.

So my request is any magsorc main here needs to hop on another class and use the respective BiS build for said class, then fight several magsorcs with BiS builds ranging from casual to top tier. Then come back here and tell everyone their experience so we can have a more accurate argument.

Ok so before I go and do this test I just want to know. Does ganking count and does zerging/using overwhelming numbers to kill them count?

Because if you just want me to fight them 1v1 I've already said I believe they have an advantage there but that the game isn't balanced behind this so it's relatively unimportant.

Yes, everything counts

Oh also how am I supposed to know their builds and if they are casual or top tier? I could zerg surf on a tanky plar with high regen and just spam beam and turtle up as needed but if I just wait till 3 other people get them low I'm not really going to know much about their build or skill level.

So maybe your test is already asking something that's not easily known or that's going to leave it to the judgement of the tester, which isn't exactly a reliable test no?

Just do whatever while keeping in mind how your sorc would do on the same situation. Does ot match the same survivability and killing and staying power? Just as easy or hard?

Feels like you're trying to over complicate this

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Oh also how am I supposed to know their builds and if they are casual or top tier?

If you don't know, maybe listen to the people who do?