Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

xylena_lazarow · June 11

Iriidius wrote: »

It is unfair to non-Sorcs that they cant stack magicka/stamina without a big disadvantage

I think I see what you mean. Only MagSorc has the passives and payoffs to get all 4 from stacking max mag.

MagSorc stacking max mag = damage + healing + shielding + sustain

Weapon/Spell damage stack = damage + healing

Crit stack = damage + healing

Pen stack = damage

Jsmalls · June 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

It is unfair to non-Sorcs that they cant stack magicka/stamina without a big disadvantage

I think I see what you mean. Only MagSorc has the passives and payoffs to get all 4 from stacking max mag.

MagSorc stacking max mag = damage + healing + shielding + sustain

Weapon/Spell damage stack = damage + healing

Crit stack = damage + healing

Pen stack = damage

While this is true, shielding and healing are equivalent and initial fight sustain is not equivalent to extended fight sustain. And Magicka multiplier of damage is less efficient than Weapon/Spell.

So while I totally agree with the above, I want to recognize that the 4 "pros" of stacking magicka are not to the level of stacking the other damage / healing sources. Although currently strictly because of Ward, healing from Magicka is the strongest (probably in the game as far as solo heal) with Ward.

2000 recovery and 25k Magicka will let you last longer in a fight than 50k Magicka and 1000 recovery

8k spell damage and 25k Magicka will heal for more than 50k Magicka and 4k spell damage (with burst heals). And allow usage of Procs.

Etc etc.

And giving up two bar slots (while I agree that it requires less buff time management) does provide less functionality or integration of other buffs (minor resolve, minor protection, and major Crit with provided with a modest damage increase from stats provided).

And whether you're pressing Ward 4 times in a row to heal to full or you're using Vigor, path of darkness, and healthy offering to heal to full, you're still using multiple gcds on recovering.

xylena_lazarow · June 12

Jsmalls wrote: »

And whether you're pressing Ward 4 times in a row to heal to full or you're using Vigor, path of darkness, and healthy offering to heal to full, you're still using multiple gcds on recovering.

You're telling me that mashing your face into Ward 4 times is the same as juggling 3 different skills?

Jsmalls · June 12

Juggling three different skills? You mean pressing 3 buttons.

I keep hurricane, surge, dark conversion, curse, and Ward up at all times because unlike a burst heal, ward is required to be up at all times regardless of your current health (if you choose to play the way I do with 26k health). I'm not just face spamming Ward every GCD but I'm doing it roughly every 6.

In fact streak and dodge roll is my main defensive tool when outnumbered. And if I sat there spamming just Ward I'd die 9/10 times.

xylena_lazarow · June 12

Jsmalls wrote: »

Juggling three different skills? You mean pressing 3 buttons. I keep hurricane, surge, dark conversion, curse

Quit dodging the issue. Everyone has passive buffs to keep up, everyone uses roll dodge and block. When a MagSorc gets focused, what skills do they press. Ward. Maybe Streak. Yes pure minmax Ward spam can face tank multiple minmax DDs. Everyone else is yes, juggling at least 3 different skills, with different costs and timers and targeting mechanics, whereas MagSorc compresses all of that skill and effort into one funny button.

kurbbie_s · June 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Juggling three different skills? You mean pressing 3 buttons. I keep hurricane, surge, dark conversion, curse

Quit dodging the issue. Everyone has passive buffs to keep up, everyone uses roll dodge and block. When a MagSorc gets focused, what skills do they press. Ward. Maybe Streak. Yes pure minmax Ward spam can face tank multiple minmax DDs. Everyone else is yes, juggling at least 3 different skills, with different costs and timers and targeting mechanics, whereas MagSorc compresses all of that skill and effort into one funny button.

You do can do almost the exact same thing with an arcanist except you also get stam sustain. Just because people run into minmaxxed sorcs with a good ward doesnt mean its overtuned.
Other classes can do this no problem as well.

xylena_lazarow · June 12

kurbbie_s wrote: »

Other classes can do this no problem as well.

Like? Not Arc, because Impervious only heals once, then you need to press a different heal and build Crux again.

Bushido2513 · June 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Juggling three different skills? You mean pressing 3 buttons. I keep hurricane, surge, dark conversion, curse

Quit dodging the issue. Everyone has passive buffs to keep up, everyone uses roll dodge and block. When a MagSorc gets focused, what skills do they press. Ward. Maybe Streak. Yes pure minmax Ward spam can face tank multiple minmax DDs. Everyone else is yes, juggling at least 3 different skills, with different costs and timers and targeting mechanics, whereas MagSorc compresses all of that skill and effort into one funny button.

So let's discuss this video then because what I see the video doesn't to me match what you're describing. There's a good amount of roll dodging, los, small heals, and of course ward usage being done for this person to stay alive. Their health bar to me doesn't look like they are just eating damage with no cares. So I'm curious how you would say this matches up to your description above or what I'm missing?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Eir1tNK4fx0&t=392s

xylena_lazarow · June 13

Bushido2513 wrote: »

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Eir1tNK4fx0&t=392s

I see a smart player who knows how to manage his resources well. He lets himself go low because he knows he can recover and doesn't want to waste mag spamming Ward. There's a high damage ranged NB spamming him, so he needs to get to LoS safety to stabilize. I win plenty of 1v3s the same way.

However, the only active recovery skill he ever needs to press or think about is Ward. That's an insane advantage for an already good player. Everyone else has to put in twice as much thought, effort, skill, and resources.

Galeriano2 · June 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

kurbbie_s wrote: »

Other classes can do this no problem as well.

Like? Not Arc, because Impervious only heals once, then you need to press a different heal and build Crux again.

I already proved You that to a certain degree You can survive with impervious alone when built properly.

xylena_lazarow · June 13

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I already proved You that to a certain degree You can survive with impervious alone when built properly.

ok then show us the build

StaticWave · June 13

I wanna see the build too

Bushido2513 · June 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Eir1tNK4fx0&t=392s

I see a smart player who knows how to manage his resources well. He lets himself go low because he knows he can recover and doesn't want to waste mag spamming Ward. There's a high damage ranged NB spamming him, so he needs to get to LoS safety to stabilize. I win plenty of 1v3s the same way.

However, the only active recovery skill he ever needs to press or think about is Ward. That's an insane advantage for an already good player. Everyone else has to put in twice as much thought, effort, skill, and resources.

Well I don't know if I'd say he let himself get low but yes we do know he recovered but that was also due to crit surge and dark deal in some part.

Still you say he should be able to face tank damage and I see him never staying in one place, doing los, roll dodging like crazy with copious amounts of streaks.

So I'm asking how your saying it's basically easy mode and he's working double time from what I can see?

Galeriano2 · June 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I already proved You that to a certain degree You can survive with impervious alone when built properly.

ok then show us the build

I already told You why it won't happen.

xylena_lazarow · June 13

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I already told You why it won't happen.

source: trust me bro

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So I'm asking how your saying it's basically easy mode and he's working double time from what I can see?

It's rarely easy to fight 1v3, but forget all the rolling because everyone rolls, he only needs to press Ward to both keep his hp up AND preload against the next round of damage. My Warden needs both Polar and Vigor to do that, brawler NB needs to juggle Healthy, Vigor, and Path to do that, Sorc only needs Ward.

If you really don't think there's a difference, try this: replace Hardened Ward and the passive Bound Aegis on your Sorc with Dampened Magic and Resolving Vigor. Let us know how it goes.

Bushido2513 · June 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I already told You why it won't happen.

source: trust me bro

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So I'm asking how your saying it's basically easy mode and he's working double time from what I can see?

It's rarely easy to fight 1v3, but forget all the rolling because everyone rolls, he only needs to press Ward to both keep his hp up AND preload against the next round of damage. My Warden needs both Polar and Vigor to do that, brawler NB needs to juggle Healthy, Vigor, and Path to do that, Sorc only needs Ward.

If you really don't think there's a difference, try this: replace Hardened Ward and the passive Bound Aegis on your Sorc with Dampened Magic and Resolving Vigor. Let us know how it goes.

So why are you discounting him having to keep up crit surge and dark deal? It wasn't just ward that kept this player alive.

Or are you saying you could take off crit surge and the heal from dark deal and this video would be the same? Notice I didn't say the resources from dark deal, just the heal. I mean I could be wrong but that sounds like a defensive rotation to me?

Galeriano2 · June 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I already told You why it won't happen.

source: trust me bro

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So I'm asking how your saying it's basically easy mode and he's working double time from what I can see?

It's rarely easy to fight 1v3, but forget all the rolling because everyone rolls, he only needs to press Ward to both keep his hp up AND preload against the next round of damage. My Warden needs both Polar and Vigor to do that, brawler NB needs to juggle Healthy, Vigor, and Path to do that, Sorc only needs Ward.

If you really don't think there's a difference, try this: replace Hardened Ward and the passive Bound Aegis on your Sorc with Dampened Magic and Resolving Vigor. Let us know how it goes.

Well You saw the screenshot. You can belive it or not it's up to You.

"Forget about rolling because everyone rolls"? Going by this logic let's forget about sorc's shield because other classes also have acces to shields. To survive sorc in the video had to dodge roll 2-3 times more than majority of other setups and make it a part of his defense equally or even more important than shield so no we can't forget about rolling. Fact that he had to build for extensive dodge rolling by most propably going almost full well fitted and to dodge like crazy is important part of the discussion. To keep his HP up he needed lots of rolling, streaking, dark dealing and shielding he couldn't just tap shield and survive everything or spam it few times and recover. He often had noticibly less time inbetween defensive windows to attack than many of the other setups. There were moments where he had to dodge 4 times in a row to survive which wouldn't be needed if shield would be as powerfull and braindead as You suggest it is. While ability is strong, making it to seem like some god mode in every scenario is a bit silly. Keep in mind that player in this video is one of the most skilled and recognised magsorcs in the game so anyone less skilled than him would most propably die pretty quick in majority if not all of the recorded encounters.

Jsmalls · June 13

To @Bushido2513 point, every class has varied buffs that provide different things.

Sorc happens to get healing from surge and passive healing from Blood magic.

I use cutting defense to more reliably proc surge in situations. And I dark conversion often when moving around with streak.

CMX wise it looks like Ward is completely carrying the healing of the class. But it looked the exact same way last patch.... And NO ONE was arguing Ward was in a great place last patch.

You can't discount surge because it's "comparable" to leeching vines. Obviously leeching has lower uptime but I would argue Surge has tougher proc conditions. But both are a HoT.

And dark conversion is absolutely a heal that's on our bar. It's just not used as an in your face burst heal for reasons well known.

Take away dark conversion, change Crit Surge to degeneration, and take points out of blood magic and let's see how the Sorcerer performs. Id also argue replace streak with Rune prison.

This would cripple a Competitive Sorcs DPS phases.

Even with that setup you still have 2 "active" abilities buffing Ward.

I also don't think people understand how frustrating the current Bug with Break free and Conjured Ward is currently. It's COMPLETELY unreliable when used after break free. Like I would say something like 30-40% of the time it takes an additional 1-2 gcds to even activate. I recorded a lot of videos recently so I'm sure I can pull an example and post it.

Major_Toughness · June 13

I haven't read the last like 2 weeks of responses but you guys are great.

It's also wild how big the gap is between magsorc and the next best class.

Turtle_Bot · June 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I already proved You that to a certain degree You can survive with impervious alone when built properly.

ok then show us the build

I replied on the other thread about the Torc mythic with an arc build, since that build relates specifically to that mythic, but here is a similar build (without that mythic) for arcanist (the build also works for polar stamdens), that I have thrown together on the editor that should really have no issues in terms of damage or tankiness.

Arcanist makes extremely good use of the clever alchemist set (same as polar stamdens), the permanent 2 lines of health are super strong for ward/polar + the raw damage proc is a lot of damage that arcanist (and polar warden) really likes and can take advantage of.
Here is a screenshot of this build in the editor:

The stats:

Note:

same buffs/mundus/CP/race etc as the torc build from the other thread, but now instead of torc, I have the set bonuses from rallying + clever alch, I have room for 1 piece trainee (+1400 health), I have room for a different mythic (in this case SSC) and even a monster set, I chose maarselok since it's still a good proc (15.6k over 4 seconds on this build) and there are lots of negative effects to buff it further, but the monster set slot is completely flexible, as is the mythic slot.
If you don't like sea-serpents snare, you can swap it out for DDF or another mythic, you lose major berserk/courage but gain even more health and more max stats.
can swap front and back bar as you want, I just put them that way because it was how I clicked them in the editor (probably should have done rallying back bar, but oh well).
You can swap the jewelry health traits (or health mundus) for damage and sit closer to 42-43k health.
Just like I mentioned in the torc build on the other thread, you can swap stampede out for Dizzy, DW blood craze, spin to win, entropy, or anything else.

Tooltips for clever alch + rallying build above are:

- flail is 11.8k + 5.4k heal

- stampede is 8.5k (guaranteed crit so effectively a 15.81 tooltip, dizzy is 16k) flex spot

- impervious is nearly 16k shield with 6k heal

- DB is 25k burst, 29k DoT

- treatise is 6.7k proc

- vigor is 28-29k heal

- runeguard is 18.5k heal

- sanctum is 60k shield

These values are basically sorc levels of ward/damage. The only thing really missing is streak, but the build has stampede which is a flex-spot to close in on escaping enemies that you can swap out for something else such as RaT/mist form if you really wanted non-targeted mobility.

I'd highly recommend looking into building Arcanist more like you would build PvP DD polar warden (where you want max health instead of max stam/mag and let damage modifiers, sustain and buffs/debuffs be what boosts your damage, instead of trying to build it like a sorc).
Currently in PvP, ~40k health on an Arcanist or polar warden is similar to what a 28k health NB/sorc, or a 30-33k health plar/dk would be (rip cro). That being a really good player that builds to get the most out of those classes defensive tools while retaining enough damage and sustain to still be a constant and big threat.

Limiting yourself to only running 30k health on arc and polar warden in PvP just to claim it as a "pure DD build", is just deliberately nerfing the defensive capabilities of those classes and their abilities/mechanics that scale off max health.

It's the same thing as if I were to build a raw damage magsorc with 8k+ spell damage but only 20k max mag and 30k health then tried to say that ward is still weak on that build. Of course ward is still weak on that build, because I am not building to make ward as effective as it can be while retaining enough damage to still be a real threat, I am deliberately nerfing the power of ward by running that build.

xylena_lazarow · June 14

Dark Exchange is super weird, you aren't going to jam on it when you're being focused, you need to wait until you're safe, which means in practice it behaves more like a buff skill that just so happens to heal you, than an active recovery skill like a burst heal or damage shield. It's also hardly mandatory, one of the Sorc mains here tried claiming the stam return morph is "mandatory" on MagSorc, please at least keep the names of the morphs straight.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Limiting yourself to only running 30k health on arc and polar warden in PvP just to claim it as a "pure DD build", is just deliberately nerfing the defensive capabilities of those classes and their abilities/mechanics that scale off max health.

Sure which is why I posted BGs results to show that my 30k hp Arc strat is legitimate, survival was not a problem, and explained how Arc PvP damage is so bad that you'll actually notice the bigger pool improving your damage. I also admitted that I'd run more hp in the current meta, damage has crept up a lot even since u40 which those Arc builds are from. Opposing Arcs just aren't scary, nowhere near Sorcs or NBs, or even a good 1v1 DK player.

TechMaybeHic · June 14

I will say now that I see values theoretically on my templar with the Aylied King mythic; it's much more comparable to sorcs ward total value. The debate in my mind would shift to if that is right with superior kiting and burst. Somewhat nullified by a better execute. Maybe entirely by the added flat damage reduction.

Bushido2513 · June 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dark Exchange is super weird, you aren't going to jam on it when you're being focused, you need to wait until you're safe, which means in practice it behaves more like a buff skill that just so happens to heal you, than an active recovery skill like a burst heal or damage shield. It's also hardly mandatory, one of the Sorc mains here tried claiming the stam return morph is "mandatory" on MagSorc, please at least keep the names of the morphs straight.

So I can say from personal experience that I rely on the resource return and the heal. And yes you can jam on it as needed. The well known tactic for being mid combat is to get a little space after cc break so you have immunity so that you can hit it a couple of times without interruption. It's been even said that players would accept less return if the heal just wasn't interrupted.

I've also been in duels and 1vx situations where I reliably use it in rotation to restore health and top off mag to keep me in the fight.

Nothing is mandatory depending on playstyle but let's just say you will be hard pressed to find many videos for pvp where it's not on the bar. I would to so far as to call it a staple.

xylena_lazarow · June 14

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's been even said that players would accept less return if the heal just wasn't interrupted

Right, because it's not a true recovery tool, it's a sustain buff you can opportunistically use to heal, but only when safe, such as when you're cc immune and the enemy isn't pressuring you. If a MagSorc is under heavy pressure, they press Ward or teleport to safety, pressing Dark Exchange here is liable to get them killed. It doesn't belong in the same category of recovery skills as Hardened Ward, Polar Wind, Resolving Vigor, etc, as it plays much differently.

Of course, having an overpowered healy shield also means you can get away with a lot of bad Dark Exchange casts.

Bushido2513 · June 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's been even said that players would accept less return if the heal just wasn't interrupted

Right, because it's not a true recovery tool, it's a sustain buff you can opportunistically use to heal, but only when safe, such as when you're cc immune and the enemy isn't pressuring you. If a MagSorc is under heavy pressure, they press Ward or teleport to safety, pressing Dark Exchange here is liable to get them killed. It doesn't belong in the same category of recovery skills as Hardened Ward, Polar Wind, Resolving Vigor, etc, as it plays much differently.

Of course, having an overpowered healy shield also means you can get away with a lot of bad Dark Exchange casts.

I was getting away with it as you call it long before this change. It was common to vigor into a exchange quite reliabilily and then used shields before or after depending on the situation. Now yes you can shield heal into an exchange so there's a bit of relief but going by the video it's not something where you can easily just face tank in the way you're saying. It's obvious that the advantage quickly diminishes based on strength and number of just a few added attackers

xylena_lazarow · June 14

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's obvious that the advantage quickly diminishes based on strength and number of just a few added attackers

Yes that's what I'm getting at. Sure you can clown an Exchange in front of someone's face on occasion, but if you're really gonna die, you press Ward or Streak, not Exchange, which was basically an empty slot for Malcolm until he teleported to a safe distance. If he didn't have Exchange slotted, he would've pressed Ward again. Ward alone is plenty sufficient for active healing, there are plenty of ways to design a resource economy nowadays with Roksa, Wretched, etc.

Bushido2513 · June 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's obvious that the advantage quickly diminishes based on strength and number of just a few added attackers

Yes that's what I'm getting at. Sure you can clown an Exchange in front of someone's face on occasion, but if you're really gonna die, you press Ward or Streak, not Exchange, which was basically an empty slot for Malcolm until he teleported to a safe distance. If he didn't have Exchange slotted, he would've pressed Ward again. Ward alone is plenty sufficient for active healing, there are plenty of ways to design a resource economy nowadays with Roksa, Wretched, etc.

So then I guess the next thing would be for you or anyone to show a video where someone is doing what is in the video with just using ward. And I'm saying the same thing, get in a fight with multiple opponents, stay engaged in a hard hitting fight, get the kills, and do little or no healing other than ward.

If ward is a one button solution that rivals the healing of other classes using multiple skills as you say it is then I would suspect this would be fairly easy to pull off no?

xylena_lazarow · June 16

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So then I guess the next thing would be for you or anyone to show a video

Static posted dozens of videos. Give them a watch. I don't know how to make videos and don't care to learn.

StaticWave · June 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So then I guess the next thing would be for you or anyone to show a video

Static posted dozens of videos. Give them a watch. I don't know how to make videos and don't care to learn.

Prolly was my last video for this topic lol. I can’t be bothered posting more videos when ppl don’t post anything on their end.

Pretty much the majority of players in game as well as on the forums agree Ward is busted, even if it took several months. Now it’s up to ZOS to decide whether Ward stays or gets yeeted.

Galeriano2 · June 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So then I guess the next thing would be for you or anyone to show a video

Static posted dozens of videos. Give them a watch. I don't know how to make videos and don't care to learn.

And none of these videos is even close to showing what Bushido asked for in the comment You replied to.

Maybe You should give a watch to a comments You're replying to because Your answer to Bushido's comment is completly out of context.