Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Bushido2513 · June 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So then I guess the next thing would be for you or anyone to show a video

Static posted dozens of videos. Give them a watch. I don't know how to make videos and don't care to learn.

Out of fairness I watched at least the last one and no it's not much like the video I posted. It was just healing and streaking through groups with no real survival once the player was focused.

Not seeing ward be busted when used in the context I believe ZOS was shooting for but of course I only speak for my observation.

Bushido2513 · June 16

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So then I guess the next thing would be for you or anyone to show a video

Static posted dozens of videos. Give them a watch. I don't know how to make videos and don't care to learn.

Prolly was my last video for this topic lol. I can’t be bothered posting more videos when ppl don’t post anything on their end.

Pretty much the majority of players in game as well as on the forums agree Ward is busted, even if it took several months. Now it’s up to ZOS to decide whether Ward stays or gets yeeted.

I could be wrong but I believe you're saying the majority of players that you have run into or know in some way or another? I say this rather than saying the majority of actual players of the game which we don't have opinions from.

Your last video was not close to what my last video showed in regards to the fight scenario. Just streaks and mild healing before the focus took effect and did as expected.

xylena_lazarow · June 16

Bushido2513 wrote: »

If ward is a one button solution that rivals the healing of other classes using multiple skills as you say it is then I would suspect this would be fairly easy to pull off no?

I've several times posted this CMX of myself surviving a Cyro zerg situation with just Ward (and Streak), easy even though I wasn't familiar with the build. The healing from Surge was insignificant even though I did have dots for it. When you can teleport around while crit healing for 8k with a 16k shield on top, what in oblivion else do you need?

Jsmalls · June 17

Here's an example of Dampen significantly outperforming your example there. CMX doesn't show everything.

Unless according to CMX we're looking to nerf Dampen too?

Bushido2513 · June 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

If ward is a one button solution that rivals the healing of other classes using multiple skills as you say it is then I would suspect this would be fairly easy to pull off no?

I've several times posted this CMX of myself surviving a Cyro zerg situation with just Ward (and Streak), easy even though I wasn't familiar with the build. The healing from Surge was insignificant even though I did have dots for it. When you can teleport around while crit healing for 8k with a 16k shield on top, what in oblivion else do you need?

I told you what I was looking for. Any class can be built to survive. Who cares about runners? I want to see some survival and kills in a 1vx situation with ward making it look like cake and doing pretty much all the healing

StaticWave · June 17

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So then I guess the next thing would be for you or anyone to show a video

Static posted dozens of videos. Give them a watch. I don't know how to make videos and don't care to learn.

Prolly was my last video for this topic lol. I can’t be bothered posting more videos when ppl don’t post anything on their end.

Pretty much the majority of players in game as well as on the forums agree Ward is busted, even if it took several months. Now it’s up to ZOS to decide whether Ward stays or gets yeeted.

I could be wrong but I believe you're saying the majority of players that you have run into or know in some way or another? I say this rather than saying the majority of actual players of the game which we don't have opinions from.

Your last video was not close to what my last video showed in regards to the fight scenario. Just streaks and mild healing before the focus took effect and did as expected.

I could careless about your scenario because it's not objective and only helps to prove your agenda. Of course if Sorc only slots Ward and doesn't combine it with Crit Surge or whatever, it's not gonna be as tanky as a class with 3-4 HoTs and a burst heal lol. Cmon, who are we kidding.

Also, my last video wasn't a response to yours. It was to show how Ward accounted for over 30% of my total healing, with the shield doing 20% and burst heal doing 10%, thereby acting as a 2-in-1 ability (prevents pressure and gets you out of execute phase). The only class ability with a somewhat similar mechanic right now is Polar Wind (also prevents pressure and gets you out of execute phase). The only difference is Polar Wind doesn't allow for maximum damage stacking because it only scales off HP, and Ward does allow for maximum damage stacking.
.
The majority of players in game agreed Ward is busted. If Sorc turned out to be overhyped, we would see that number drop drastically, but that wasn't the case. The Leaderboard ranking compiled by @Zabagad also shows Sorc population increasing and remaining somewhat constant over 3 months.

Bushido2513 · June 17

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So then I guess the next thing would be for you or anyone to show a video

Static posted dozens of videos. Give them a watch. I don't know how to make videos and don't care to learn.

Prolly was my last video for this topic lol. I can’t be bothered posting more videos when ppl don’t post anything on their end.

Pretty much the majority of players in game as well as on the forums agree Ward is busted, even if it took several months. Now it’s up to ZOS to decide whether Ward stays or gets yeeted.

I could be wrong but I believe you're saying the majority of players that you have run into or know in some way or another? I say this rather than saying the majority of actual players of the game which we don't have opinions from.

Your last video was not close to what my last video showed in regards to the fight scenario. Just streaks and mild healing before the focus took effect and did as expected.

I could careless about your scenario because it's not objective and only helps to prove your agenda. Of course if Sorc only slots Ward and doesn't combine it with Crit Surge or whatever, it's not gonna be as tanky as a class with 3-4 HoTs and a burst heal lol. Cmon, who are we kidding.

Also, my last video wasn't a response to yours. It was to show how Ward accounted for over 30% of my total healing, with the shield doing 20% and burst heal doing 10%, thereby acting as a 2-in-1 ability (prevents pressure and gets you out of execute phase). The only class ability with a somewhat similar mechanic right now is Polar Wind (also prevents pressure and gets you out of execute phase). The only difference is Polar Wind doesn't allow for maximum damage stacking because it only scales off HP, and Ward does allow for maximum damage stacking.
.
The majority of players in game agreed Ward is busted. If Sorc turned out to be overhyped, we would see that number drop drastically, but that wasn't the case. The Leaderboard ranking compiled by @Zabagad also shows Sorc population increasing and remaining somewhat constant over 3 months.

So even though people claim it's busted it's also clear that it's not turning people into one button healing 1vx Gods either. From all video evidence I'm seeing a sorc can survive well if they choose to run but if they fight outnumbered they are still very subjective to dying like all other classes regardless of perceptions of a one button better than other class heal with savage build people are talking about her.

The game is clearly geared towards gvg battles and so I'm looking to see if ward over performs there and all videos seem to say that it really doesn't and tends to die similar to other classes.

Magsorc population could be due to it being busted or due to a previously less than easy class that people were interested in now being a lot easier to play. No way to tell if those playing sorc just enjoy easier ranged combat or are actually just out there relentlessly murdering everyone with no competition

StaticWave · June 17

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So then I guess the next thing would be for you or anyone to show a video

Static posted dozens of videos. Give them a watch. I don't know how to make videos and don't care to learn.

Prolly was my last video for this topic lol. I can’t be bothered posting more videos when ppl don’t post anything on their end.

Pretty much the majority of players in game as well as on the forums agree Ward is busted, even if it took several months. Now it’s up to ZOS to decide whether Ward stays or gets yeeted.

I could be wrong but I believe you're saying the majority of players that you have run into or know in some way or another? I say this rather than saying the majority of actual players of the game which we don't have opinions from.

Your last video was not close to what my last video showed in regards to the fight scenario. Just streaks and mild healing before the focus took effect and did as expected.

I could careless about your scenario because it's not objective and only helps to prove your agenda. Of course if Sorc only slots Ward and doesn't combine it with Crit Surge or whatever, it's not gonna be as tanky as a class with 3-4 HoTs and a burst heal lol. Cmon, who are we kidding.

Also, my last video wasn't a response to yours. It was to show how Ward accounted for over 30% of my total healing, with the shield doing 20% and burst heal doing 10%, thereby acting as a 2-in-1 ability (prevents pressure and gets you out of execute phase). The only class ability with a somewhat similar mechanic right now is Polar Wind (also prevents pressure and gets you out of execute phase). The only difference is Polar Wind doesn't allow for maximum damage stacking because it only scales off HP, and Ward does allow for maximum damage stacking.
.
The majority of players in game agreed Ward is busted. If Sorc turned out to be overhyped, we would see that number drop drastically, but that wasn't the case. The Leaderboard ranking compiled by @Zabagad also shows Sorc population increasing and remaining somewhat constant over 3 months.

So even though people claim it's busted it's also clear that it's not turning people into one button healing 1vx Gods either.

Magsorc population could be due to it being busted or due to a previously less than easy class that people were interested in now being a lot easier to play. No way to tell if those playing sorc just enjoy easier ranged combat or are actually just out there relentlessly murdering everyone with no competition

I have a problem with these statements of yours because you're beating around the bush. It's the same form of argument you've been making since the beginning in this thread.

Every class will always have inadequate players. Defensive buffs like Hardened Ward will allow them to live longer but won't drastically make them more lethal. Unless ZOS gives a massive offensive buff (i.e. 30k Cfrag tooltip) that allows inadequate players to 1 shot their competition, it's not going to make a massive difference offensively for them.

What's going to make a difference is above average and top tier players will now be borderline impossible to kill to each other and can even dominate their competition if both are closely matched. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. I've already proven that plenty of times with my data.

So I'll say it again. Using your logic, the current overperforming classes should not be nerfed either because it doesn't matter in GvG. No class balancing is needed then, because at the end of the day like you said, it doesn't matter. So now what? Why are you still arguing lol

Turtle_Bot · June 17

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So then I guess the next thing would be for you or anyone to show a video

Static posted dozens of videos. Give them a watch. I don't know how to make videos and don't care to learn.

Prolly was my last video for this topic lol. I can’t be bothered posting more videos when ppl don’t post anything on their end.

Pretty much the majority of players in game as well as on the forums agree Ward is busted, even if it took several months. Now it’s up to ZOS to decide whether Ward stays or gets yeeted.

I could be wrong but I believe you're saying the majority of players that you have run into or know in some way or another? I say this rather than saying the majority of actual players of the game which we don't have opinions from.

Your last video was not close to what my last video showed in regards to the fight scenario. Just streaks and mild healing before the focus took effect and did as expected.

I could careless about your scenario because it's not objective and only helps to prove your agenda. Of course if Sorc only slots Ward and doesn't combine it with Crit Surge or whatever, it's not gonna be as tanky as a class with 3-4 HoTs and a burst heal lol. Cmon, who are we kidding.

We aren't kidding anyone, but Xylena has been spamming this thread (and others, including making her own bait/troll thread about a month ago) claiming that ward is some magical 1 button ability that is on its own allowing a full DPS build to tank better than a troll tank, to the point that it can be used out in the open without using any LoS, other abilities or defensive tools and just face roll 1vX situations, even against good players.
This is what majority of "magsorc mains" are disagreeing with, not your fact that ward is too strong currently, because we agree that it is too strong currently, this is not being debated, but what is also true is that ward is not this mythical 1 button mash to face roll everyone in PvP.

It has been pointed out that just CMX alone is not telling the whole story (what Xylena is doing and trying to back up her claims about ward) and is only being used as bias confirmation (proof of this is in the CMX Jsmalls showed where he got dampen ward to match Xylena's 80+% of healing CMX of hardened ward, which nobody, but nobody is stupid enough to claim that dampen is even remotely good let alone being busted).
When that CMX data is backed up with video evidence (what you, static, are putting forward) that tells a much more complete/accurate story about the strength of ward and how it is being used. It is proof that ward is very strong and needs adjusting, but it is also proof that ward is still not this magical "1 button to face tank everything" that is being claimed by Xylena.

Bushido has simply asked Xylena to back up her claims of ward being this magical 1 button god-mode face-tank everything heal that she is claiming ward is, just how she and you have asked for video evidence of ward being "fair" of those who have claimed that. So far Xylena has completely failed to do that (and refuses to do that), just the same as those who claimed ward is "fair" have completely failed in proving their side of the argument.

We (well majority of us) aren't trying to claim ward is fair and doesn't need adjustment (because it does, we agree with you here), but we also need to be truthful in pointing out how strong ward actually is and how much adjusting it actually needs, because making baseless (and blatantly demonstrably false) claims that it is some magical "1 button" god-mode heal that allows a player in a "full DPS build" to "face-tank out in the open" without requiring other Heals/HoTs, streak or LoS, like the block troll tanks that exist in this game, is not helping the whole situation and only causing there to be much more back and forth on this topic than is actually needed.

Simple fact is, unless Xylena can back up her claims with video proof (like you have) that ward is this magical 1 button heal that allows her to face tank 1vX situations against good players in a pure DD build out in the open without using LoS/streak or HoTs/other heals (her claims, not mine), her arguments on this topic are no more relevant/valid than those who have tried to claim that ward is "fair" and doesn't need adjusting without providing any video evidence to back up those claims.
And no, that same disproven CMX doesn't count, Jsmalls has disproved that CMX by reproducing Xylena's CMX "results" for hardened ward with dampen ward (which is a super mediocre skill that nobody will claim is OP).

TL//DR:
Xylena's claims of ward being some god-mode button heal that is allowing a full DPS build to face tank like a troll tank without needing to do anything else needs proper proof provided to back this claim up (and not just the same single disproved CMX being reposted), otherwise it is just as baseless and biased as the claims others have made about ward being "balanced" (which it's not).

Turtle_Bot · June 17

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So then I guess the next thing would be for you or anyone to show a video

Static posted dozens of videos. Give them a watch. I don't know how to make videos and don't care to learn.

Prolly was my last video for this topic lol. I can’t be bothered posting more videos when ppl don’t post anything on their end.

Pretty much the majority of players in game as well as on the forums agree Ward is busted, even if it took several months. Now it’s up to ZOS to decide whether Ward stays or gets yeeted.

I could be wrong but I believe you're saying the majority of players that you have run into or know in some way or another? I say this rather than saying the majority of actual players of the game which we don't have opinions from.

Your last video was not close to what my last video showed in regards to the fight scenario. Just streaks and mild healing before the focus took effect and did as expected.

I could careless about your scenario because it's not objective and only helps to prove your agenda. Of course if Sorc only slots Ward and doesn't combine it with Crit Surge or whatever, it's not gonna be as tanky as a class with 3-4 HoTs and a burst heal lol. Cmon, who are we kidding.

We aren't kidding anyone, but Xylena has been spamming this thread (and others, including making her own bait/troll thread about a month ago) claiming that ward is some magical 1 button ability that is on its own allowing a full DPS build to tank better than a troll tank, to the point that it can be used out in the open without using any LoS, other abilities or defensive tools and just face roll 1vX situations, even against good players.
This is what majority of "magsorc mains" are disagreeing with, not your fact that ward is too strong currently, because we agree that it is too strong currently, this is not being debated, but what is also true is that ward is not this mythical 1 button mash to face roll everyone in PvP.
It has been pointed out that just CMX alone is not telling the whole story (what Xylena is doing and trying to back up her claims about ward) and is only being used as bias confirmation (proof of this is in the CMX Jsmalls showed where he got dampen ward to match Xylena's 80+% of healing CMX of hardened ward, which nobody, but nobody is stupid enough to claim that dampen is even remotely good let alone being busted).
When that CMX data is backed up with video evidence (what you, static, are putting forward) that tells a much more complete/accurate story about the strength of ward and how it is being used. It is proof that ward is very strong and needs adjusting, but it is also proof that ward is still not this magical "1 button to face tank everything" that is being claimed by Xylena.

Bushido has simply asked Xylena to back up her claims of ward being this magical 1 button god-mode face-tank everything heal that she is claiming ward is, just how she and you have asked for video evidence of ward being "fair" of those who have claimed that. So far Xylena has completely failed to do that (and refuses to do that), just the same as those who claimed ward is "fair" have completely failed in proving their side of the argument.
We (well majority of us) aren't trying to claim ward is fair and doesn't need adjustment (because it does, we agree with you here), but we also need to be truthful in pointing out how strong ward actually is and how much adjusting it actually needs, because making baseless (and blatantly demonstrably false) claims that it is some magical "1 button" god-mode heal that allows a player in a "full DPS build" to "face-tank out in the open" without requiring other Heals/HoTs, streak or LoS, like the block troll tanks that exist in this game, is not helping the whole situation and only causing there to be much more back and forth on this topic than is actually needed.

Simple fact is, unless Xylena can back up her claims with video proof (like you have) that ward is this magical 1 button heal that allows her to face tank 1vX situations against good players in a pure DD build out in the open without using LoS/streak or HoTs/other heals (her claims, not mine), her arguments on this topic are no more relevant/valid than those who have tried to claim that ward is "fair" and doesn't need adjusting without providing any video evidence to back up those claims.
And no, that same disproven CMX doesn't count, Jsmalls has disproved that CMX by reproducing Xylena's CMX "results" for hardened ward with dampen ward (which is a super mediocre skill that nobody will claim is OP).
TL//DR:
Xylena's claims of ward being some god-mode button heal that is allowing a full DPS build to face tank like a troll tank without needing to do anything else needs proper proof provided to back this claim up (and not just the same single disproved CMX being reposted), otherwise it is just as baseless and biased as the claims others have made about ward being "balanced" (which it's not).

This is also what I was trying to tell you way back when this thread was started, and why we need to be specific and accurate when stating that something is too strong and needs adjusting, because I could see this stupid false "1 button god mode" BS argument coming from a mile away (it happened far too much on my sorc thread back in U36).

It is also another reason why it is important to include potential solutions as well as video proof because that shows the devs who read these threads how the ability is being used and what it is with the ability that makes it so strong while also giving the devs a rough idea on the power level the ability should be at to be at a balanced power level where it is strong and fun to use but not so overpowered that it overshadows everything else.

xylena_lazarow · June 17

Jsmalls wrote: »

Here's an example of Dampen significantly outperforming your example there. CMX doesn't show everything. Unless according to CMX we're looking to nerf Dampen too?

You walked right into it.

Your example shows that Dampen, a large shield with no heal, is more than adequate for MagSorc survival.

You yourself have proven that the heal on Hardened is unnecessary.

Galeriano2 · June 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Here's an example of Dampen significantly outperforming your example there. CMX doesn't show everything. Unless according to CMX we're looking to nerf Dampen too?

You walked right into it.

Your example shows that Dampen, a large shield with no heal, is more than adequate for MagSorc survival.

You yourself have proven that the heal on Hardened is unnecessary.

To be honest it looks like You're the one that walked right into it.

If large shield with no heal is more than adequate for magsorc survival and dampen is that kind of shield than what makes sorc so special that this kind of defense is adequate for his survival but not for the other classes survival? After all basically nobody runs with dampen which shouldn't be a thing if it's so adequate survival tool. Also why pre U41 magsorcs were dying like a flies if they had "adequate defense"? There is lot of logic missing in Your argument.

xylena_lazarow · June 17

Galeriano2 wrote: »

To be honest it looks like You're the one that walked right into it.

If Dampen is sufficient, what the hell do you need an 8k crit heal underneath your 16k shield for?

Imagine if forum Sorcs instead just admitted they enjoy being overpowered...

Galeriano2 · June 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

To be honest it looks like You're the one that walked right into it.

If Dampen is sufficient, what the hell do you need an 8k crit heal underneath your 16k shield for?

Imagine if forum Sorcs instead just admitted they enjoy being overpowered...

If dampen is sufficient than why is nobody using it? People suddenly dislike sufficient defenses?

If no heal hardened ward was sufficient than why pre U41 magsorcs were dying like flies? And I am asking that from a perspective of someone who was picking magsorcs as one of my primary targets because I knew they are easiest to take down fast.

Bushido2513 · June 17

StaticWave wrote: »

So I'll say it again. Using your logic, the current overperforming classes should not be nerfed either because it doesn't matter in GvG. No class balancing is needed then, because at the end of the day like you said, it doesn't matter. So now what? Why are you still arguing lol

Actually using my complete logix I've always been in favor of balance changes. I've just said that showing a cmx, a subjective video here or there, or as anecdotal story, etc doesn't tell the full story even though some players act like these are clear cut proof.

There are many other factors that need to be considered for balance that we as players don't have access to see. It's the same reason I can't come out and say ward is exactly fine abd show proof because it's not a simple question and is to me both fine and not find depending on the situation.

Ward strength in a 1v1 is at its strongest. Ward strength quickly diminishes as you add more enemies/ sources of damage. That calculation could be thought to be important but not really when you accept that the game is mostly pushing players towards gvg. Now that doesn't mean it's perfectly fine, it just shows that the calculation of ward being fine is more than just saying I dueled someone and couldn't kill them or me and some other guys chased this sorc and he got away.

Every class has at one time enjoyed a surge in popularity due to buffs but we've also seen the wheel turn without those buffs being removed. So maybe it's also that you and I can't see the real data and we aren't privy to the future plans of ZOS?

Personally though, the current ward implementation isn't really much more of a bother than some things other classes can also do. It just makes me change my engagement tactics and adapt

Bushido2513 · June 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Here's an example of Dampen significantly outperforming your example there. CMX doesn't show everything. Unless according to CMX we're looking to nerf Dampen too?

You walked right into it.

Your example shows that Dampen, a large shield with no heal, is more than adequate for MagSorc survival.

You yourself have proven that the heal on Hardened is unnecessary.

Not really, it shows that cmx data can be manipulated to the desired outcome depending on the testing scenario. It's the same as any study where you need a lot of participants and control variables to help eliminate abstract results.

Just saying here's some numbers I gathered from a few tests is less than concrete

xylena_lazarow · June 17

Galeriano2 wrote: »

If dampen is sufficient than why is nobody using it?

Huh, can't imagine. Maybe there's a broken overpowered skill that outclasses it.

Galeriano2 · June 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

If dampen is sufficient than why is nobody using it?

Huh, can't imagine. Maybe there's a broken overpowered skill that outclasses it.

When I asked "why is nobody using it" I meant all 7 classes.

Why is no class using dampen a "large shield with no heal" , if it's so sufficient and adequate defense?

xylena_lazarow · June 17

Galeriano2 wrote: »

When I asked "why is nobody using it" I meant all 7 classes

Sorc is the only class for which stacking max mag is efficient. You are a Sorc main and should know this.

Again, why do you think you need an 8k crit heal underneath your 16k shield?

Jsmalls · June 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

If dampen is sufficient than why is nobody using it?

Huh, can't imagine. Maybe there's a broken overpowered skill that outclasses it.

@xylena_lazarow

Dampen's coefficient is lower than a Hardened Ward (pre U41), costs more and ties you to 5 pieces of Light Armor.

Sorcs (before U41) had no reason to run this ability.

@Galeriano didn't question why Sorcs didn't run it.

Why don't other classes run it? Arcanist has a passive for larger Shields which actually puts Dampen coefficient on par with the Tooltip of Hardened Ward (pre U41). Yet.... I've never seen a single Arcanist run it. Even though it would let you stack into a damage resource (Magicka) an issue you have voiced. Nightblades have a 8% Magicka passive and don't run the ability either, odd.

So why if Dampen is an adequate defense is it totally ignored as a defense option in PvP? Because it's unviable. And to pretend it's viable is unchecked bias.

Damage Shields effectiveness diminishes as you increase the number of attackers. You can't view Shields or balance shields as if they are health. Its just not the correct way of evaluating them.

I absolutely have a bias in this argument, I'm able to finally run sets that aren't all Max Magicka and still have a viable form of defense.

That CMX to use Dampen I had 60k~ magicka. That's not an optimal setup (for my playstyle). It lacks access to a monster set, it locks you into 5 light, and overall your damage has a lot of room for improvement (spell damage has better coefficient than magicka).

Edit: And to be fair I've played MagSorc for the better part of 9 years at this point. What I can do with Dampen (a playstyle I'm very familiar with) and what the other X% of the community can do will vary significantly. Additionally my CMX was a 1v1 an area which damage shields perform the best. You give me Dampen for 1vX style gameplay and id just roll nightblade or warden.

Galeriano2 · June 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

When I asked "why is nobody using it" I meant all 7 classes

Sorc is the only class for which stacking max mag is efficient. You are a Sorc main and should know this.

Why is stacking max magicka only efficient for sorc? After all the only skill in magsorc kit that scales purely from max magicka is hardened ward so it's basically equivalent of any other class stacking max mag and slotting dampen.

xylena_lazarow · June 17

Jsmalls wrote: »

So why if Dampen is an adequate defense is it totally ignored as a defense option in PvP? Because it's unviable. And to pretend it's viable is unchecked bias.

My only bias here is that I think ESO does ranged combat horrendously. Related, but not directly. Have you run your Sorc with Dampen+Vigor instead of Hardened+Aegis yet?

I am confused that you say Dampen "outperforms" Hardened in one post, then call Dampen "unviable" the next. Also confused why we're talking about Arcs and NBs. I know a guy who runs shield DK, does that make you feel better?

Jsmalls wrote: »

Damage Shields effectiveness diminishes as you increase the number of attackers. You can't view Shields or balance shields as if they are health. Its just not the correct way of evaluating them.

Sorry but it sounds like it is your effectiveness that diminishes against multiples. I do not have this problem.

StaticWave · June 17

@Jsmalls

Current Dampen at 50k max mag yields about the same tooltip as Hardened Ward at 40k-42k max mag last patch. Definitely not great.

I wish Dampen had the same tooltip as Hardened Ward, because then I’d be able to test similar shield size but without the burst heal.

Bushido2513 · June 17

The above post explains it better but yeah I gather using dampen as an example was more about just saying what you could make cmx show if you wanted to. Dampen shouldn't really be a part of the discussion due to how restricted it is, to the point of not even being really useable for the majority of players. Armor skills just haven't really been touched and really need a rework at this point to be relevant after the changes to armor bonuses and penalties.

I imagine it's just hard to really try to do a simple comparison of ward to anything because you're not just talking about the defense it gives but the offensive potential you also gain. Also 1v1 vs xv1 vs gvg

I can only say that I have yet to see a sorc that doesn't die or get pressured in the same way other classes would in anything other than a 1v1 when actively staying in the fight. I'm not counting runners because many can run and survive easily depending on build.

Jsmalls · June 17

@Galeriano2

Sorcerers benefit because they have more incentive to run Magelight (no in class access to major crit). They have bound aegis work on both bars (8%), and now they have a 10% Magicka passive.

Since U41 it is more advantageous for Sorcerers to stack Magicka than other classes.

@xylena_lazarow

I was saying MY usage of Dampen outperformed YOUR usage of Hardened in the CMX. For Ward the HPS is strictly dependent on damage received. All this really means is I absorbed more damage with Dampen than you did with Hardened.

In no iteration of this game has Dampen ever out-performed Hardened Ward. Just want to be clear on that.

@StaticWave

Yeah coefficient has always been lower I think this ability was strictly used to double up on wards, but that lost its effectiveness once bound aegis became the skill it is today.

But it is semi comparable to the strength of Ward pre Bound Aegis and passive buffs.

StaticWave · June 17

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ward strength in a 1v1 is at its strongest. Ward strength quickly diminishes as you add more enemies/ sources of damage. That calculation could be thought to be important but not really when you accept that the game is mostly pushing players towards gvg. Now that doesn't mean it's perfectly fine, it just shows that the calculation of ward being fine is more than just saying I dueled someone and couldn't kill them or me and some other guys chased this sorc and he got away.

And burst heals somehow don’t diminish in strength as you add more enemies? Are you telling me a 14k burst heal in a 1v1 also retains the same strength in a 1v3? Cmon, you and I both know survivability diminishes with increasing sources of damage taken, regardless of what method you use to survive.

I’m finding it difficult to understand your argument, and I definitely don’t agree you favor balance changes. You’ve admitted that you’re primarily a solo PvPer, so saying you favor balance changes but then piggybacking on “ZOS balancing around GvG” just seems dishonest to me.

GvG is dominated by other classes, not Sorc. Even if there is a Sorc in GvG, it’s most likely a bombard stamSorc. Bombard stamSorc doesn’t need Ward to survive. So how exactly is Hardened Ward useful for GvGers?

Hardened Ward change helped solo Sorc players the most. In fact, it’s helped them way too much and put them in the realm of tanky DD classes. This is mainly what I’m trying to address. I don’t care about GvG because Sorc’s main role in a GvG is a support and that will continue to be the case until they receive more AoE potential.

StaticWave · June 17

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I can only say that I have yet to see a sorc that doesn't die or get pressured in the same way other classes would in anything other than a 1v1 when actively staying in the fight. I'm not counting runners because many can run and survive easily depending on build.

But I do count runners, because Sorc just happens to be the best at it.

Here is a clip of an Arc, a Warden, and me trying to survive a zerg:

https://youtu.be/ZQmE6WwJ8dc?si=i8519Fb1I7hlmoYQ

I’m sure you’ve heard of the phrase “You don’t need to outrun a bear, you just need to outrun your friend”. With 300 average ping that also occasionally spiked to 600-700, I could out run the zerg AND my teammates.

In fact, I Streaked back to the Zerg to stun them so the Warden and Arc could get away, TWICE. They both died. They eventually got me too, but if I had 100 ping and Ward on back bar, I would have 100% survived that encounter. I’ve survived it in the past many times without a burst heal.

So tell me Bushido, did the Warden’s burst heal save him from getting deleted by the Zerg? I’m sure he wished he had Streak lol

Jsmalls · June 17

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ward strength in a 1v1 is at its strongest. Ward strength quickly diminishes as you add more enemies/ sources of damage. That calculation could be thought to be important but not really when you accept that the game is mostly pushing players towards gvg. Now that doesn't mean it's perfectly fine, it just shows that the calculation of ward being fine is more than just saying I dueled someone and couldn't kill them or me and some other guys chased this sorc and he got away.

And burst heals somehow don’t diminish in strength as you add more enemies? Are you telling me a 14k burst heal in a 1v1 also retains the same strength in a 1v3? Cmon, you and I both know survivability diminishes with increasing sources of damage taken, regardless of what method you use to survive.

I’m finding it difficult to understand your argument, and I definitely don’t agree you favor balance changes. You’ve admitted that you’re primarily a solo PvPer, so saying you favor balance changes but then piggybacking on “ZOS balancing around GvG” just seems dishonest to me.

Block casting burst heals does not diminish as you add more enemies the mitigation gets "stronger". I recognize your argument of DoTs and 100% agree that Ward performs better against DoTs than Healing does. But in a 1vX scenario (and this is pure opinion with no data to back it up) I feel that direct damage is the most common source (and largest source) of damage received.

The hero that wants to test the above in 1vX situations is more than welcome.

xylena_lazarow · June 17

Jsmalls wrote: »

I was saying MY usage of Dampen outperformed YOUR usage of Hardened in the CMX.

Your unviable Dampen outperforms the Hardened that hard carried me in Cyro? Huh? Again, what do you need an 8k crit burst heal underneath your 16k shield for? If you were unable to 1vX prior to u41, that's on you, not the game.

Galeriano2 · June 17

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Galeriano2

Sorcerers benefit because they have more incentive to run Magelight (no in class access to major crit). They have bound aegis work on both bars (8%), and now they have a 10% Magicka passive.

Since U41 it is more advantageous for Sorcerers to stack Magicka than other classes.

While I know all of this it's worth to mention that prior to U41 sorc and nb had basically the same capabilities to stack max mag with both classes having class acces to +8% max mag bonus. Nightblade even had a slight adventage because shadow image procs necropotence without the need to double bar a pet. Still it didn't make max mag stacking and slotting dampen desired amongst nightblades. Arcanists have a passive that makes shields 10% stronger and 10% cheaper and is also doesn't make so called "sufficient defense" that dampen magic supposedly is sufficient enough to be even considered.