Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I was saying MY usage of Dampen outperformed YOUR usage of Hardened in the CMX.

Your unviable Dampen outperforms the Hardened that hard carried me in Cyro? Huh? Again, what do you need an 8k crit burst heal underneath your 16k shield for? If you were unable to 1vX prior to u41, that's on you, not the game.

@xylena_lazarow

I'm not saying that as an attack against you. I'm strictly speaking on stats shown, all I really said was in my CMX I had more incoming damage than you did.

I also didn't point out that in your CMX of an "overpowered" Ward the CMX captured 32 seconds of combat in which you suppressed a measly 3200 DPS in your 1vX (because your HPS is generally consistent with incoming DPS).

And you also completely ignored my statement that a 60k magicka setup does not output the damage needed for "Competitive" Mag Sorcs because of the sacrifices to get there. You can absolutely have fun with that setup and smash potatoes, but you simply won't have the damage output to put down other "great" players.

To put it into your terms, it's the equivalent of running a mid 40k health Arcanist.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

And you also completely ignored my statement that a 60k magicka setup does not output the damage needed for "Competitive" Mag Sorcs because of the sacrifices to get there. You can absolutely have fun with that setup and smash potatoes, but you simply won't have the damage output to put down other "great" players. To put it into your terms, it's the equivalent of running a mid 40k health Arcanist.

Sorc damage output is highly dependent on burst combo skill. If you are struggling to kill decent players on a 60k mag Sorc and struggling with 1vX in general, may I suggest working on your burst combos. If you think Arc has anywhere near the PvP damage potential of Sorc, then you don't understand either class very well.

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

And you also completely ignored my statement that a 60k magicka setup does not output the damage needed for "Competitive" Mag Sorcs because of the sacrifices to get there. You can absolutely have fun with that setup and smash potatoes, but you simply won't have the damage output to put down other "great" players. To put it into your terms, it's the equivalent of running a mid 40k health Arcanist.

Sorc damage output is highly dependent on burst combo skill. If you are struggling to kill decent players on a 60k mag Sorc and struggling with 1vX in general, may I suggest working on your burst combos. If you think Arc has anywhere near the PvP damage potential of Sorc, then you don't understand either class very well.

You're talking to someone who has been playing this class for almost as long as the game has been out. On a rather competitive level.

Go to Blackreach and ask on any Alliance who the best DC MagSorc / Sorc is. Promise you my name will come up.

Great Players have 35k health on average now. Good luck bursting a great player for 35k damage. At least with a 60k magicka setup.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

On a rather competitive level

Jsmalls wrote: »

Go to Blackreach

...

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

And you also completely ignored my statement that a 60k magicka setup does not output the damage needed for "Competitive" Mag Sorcs because of the sacrifices to get there. You can absolutely have fun with that setup and smash potatoes, but you simply won't have the damage output to put down other "great" players. To put it into your terms, it's the equivalent of running a mid 40k health Arcanist.

Sorc damage output is highly dependent on burst combo skill. If you are struggling to kill decent players on a 60k mag Sorc and struggling with 1vX in general, may I suggest working on your burst combos. If you think Arc has anywhere near the PvP damage potential of Sorc, then you don't understand either class very well.

You mean burst combos that every player [Snip] can see from miles ahead? Magsorc burst combo is known for it's high effectiveness against potatatoes and mediocre effectiveness against everyone with some decent skill level. This is a main reason why stamsorc is still considered as better version of a class offensively speaking because he can add some more dmg pressure outside of that obvious combo.

Here is a quote showing what one of the ESO PvP streamers had to say about magsorc in his discord which more or less sums up the class current state

"PS: Try not to get rolldodged, or you'll lose your hair.
In general MagSorc suffers from easily avoided damgage output, i'd consider it a mediocre class currently, however you get to choose the fights you pick, have a good chance of making it out of trouble, and you are a noob slayer, basically playing COD on those kids."

[Edited for bait]

divnyi

Lmao did people just write 52 pages of justifications of why 1 button press 10k shield + heal is ok because, uh, meta.

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

Lmao did people just write 52 pages of justifications of why 1 button press 10k shield + heal is ok

yes lol

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

On a rather competitive level

Jsmalls wrote: »

Go to Blackreach

...

I mean considering Gray host doesn't let you use abilities reliably, id argue Black reach has the better potential for skillful plays. But to each their own.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

I mean considering Gray host doesn't let you use abilities reliably, id argue Black reach has the better potential for skillful plays. But to each their own.

Ravenwatch has a lot of "potential" too but the zergs and competition are on Gray Host. Trying to claim that 90% empty Blackreach is anything other than a minor league farm festival is just cope.

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I mean considering Gray host doesn't let you use abilities reliably, id argue Black reach has the better potential for skillful plays. But to each their own.

Ravenwatch has a lot of "potential" too but the zergs and competition are on Gray Host. Trying to claim that 90% empty Blackreach is anything other than a minor league farm festival is just cope.

Ah no you see I play on DC. Times I play regularly have 3/+ bars for both Red and Yellow and 1-2 bars for DC. The AD and EP zergs are alive and well.

Plus who is fighting in a zerg and acting like they matter lmao. Congrats on your light attack.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

Plus who is fighting in a zerg and acting like they matter lmao

Probably the 100+ zergers trying very hard to kill you at all times on GH.

Yeah I know BR gets pop during NA primetime, but the intensity doesn't compare. Just come to GH ; )

Also gotta love Smalls, Galeriano, and Bushido all giving the same 3 likes on each of the others' posts.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

And you also completely ignored my statement that a 60k magicka setup does not output the damage needed for "Competitive" Mag Sorcs because of the sacrifices to get there. You can absolutely have fun with that setup and smash potatoes, but you simply won't have the damage output to put down other "great" players. To put it into your terms, it's the equivalent of running a mid 40k health Arcanist.

Sorc damage output is highly dependent on burst combo skill. If you are struggling to kill decent players on a 60k mag Sorc and struggling with 1vX in general, may I suggest working on your burst combos. If you think Arc has anywhere near the PvP damage potential of Sorc, then you don't understand either class very well.

You mean burst combos that every player [Snip] can see from miles ahead? Magsorc burst combo is known for it's high effectiveness against potatatoes and mediocre effectiveness against everyone with some decent skill level. This is a main reason why stamsorc is still considered as better version of a class offensively speaking because he can add some more dmg pressure outside of that obvious combo.

Here is a quote showing what one of the ESO PvP streamers had to say about magsorc in his discord which more or less sums up the class current state

"PS: Try not to get rolldodged, or you'll lose your hair.
In general MagSorc suffers from easily avoided damgage output, i'd consider it a mediocre class currently, however you get to choose the fights you pick, have a good chance of making it out of trouble, and you are a noob slayer, basically playing COD on those kids."

U40 sure. U41 no, and U42 definitely not.

[Edited quote]

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ward strength in a 1v1 is at its strongest. Ward strength quickly diminishes as you add more enemies/ sources of damage. That calculation could be thought to be important but not really when you accept that the game is mostly pushing players towards gvg. Now that doesn't mean it's perfectly fine, it just shows that the calculation of ward being fine is more than just saying I dueled someone and couldn't kill them or me and some other guys chased this sorc and he got away.

And burst heals somehow don’t diminish in strength as you add more enemies? Are you telling me a 14k burst heal in a 1v1 also retains the same strength in a 1v3? Cmon, you and I both know survivability diminishes with increasing sources of damage taken, regardless of what method you use to survive.

I’m finding it difficult to understand your argument, and I definitely don’t agree you favor balance changes. You’ve admitted that you’re primarily a solo PvPer, so saying you favor balance changes but then piggybacking on “ZOS balancing around GvG” just seems dishonest to me.

Block casting burst heals does not diminish as you add more enemies the mitigation gets "stronger". I recognize your argument of DoTs and 100% agree that Ward performs better against DoTs than Healing does. But in a 1vX scenario (and this is pure opinion with no data to back it up) I feel that direct damage is the most common source (and largest source) of damage received.

The hero that wants to test the above in 1vX situations is more than welcome.

Block casting a burst heal DOES diminish as you add more enemies. As a non-shield user, my experience with past 1vXs confirms this.

For the past 5 years of playing stamsorc without a burst heal, I was usually the last person to survive in my small man group. All my friends had a burst heal of some sort and still died before me. You know why I survived the longest? I can tell you it’s not because of the burst heal.

In a 1vX scenario, kiting is the best form of defense. You can hold block for 2-3 seconds, but you’ll also drain yourself dry of stam. A 15k crit burst heal isn’t going to save you from 5-6 people with hard hitting abilities. Neither does Ward, but Sorc just happens to be fully kitted for kiting.

Now give the class a strong burst heal and you have a class that doesn’t die in the hands of a top tier player.

StaticWave

https://youtu.be/Yb-B5aJvJ30?si=3DRZC-a5q5QdRYV4

Here is a 2vX clip I did 2 years ago on stamsorc. No burst heal, just good old kiting and LoS.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

And you also completely ignored my statement that a 60k magicka setup does not output the damage needed for "Competitive" Mag Sorcs because of the sacrifices to get there. You can absolutely have fun with that setup and smash potatoes, but you simply won't have the damage output to put down other "great" players. To put it into your terms, it's the equivalent of running a mid 40k health Arcanist.

Sorc damage output is highly dependent on burst combo skill. If you are struggling to kill decent players on a 60k mag Sorc and struggling with 1vX in general, may I suggest working on your burst combos. If you think Arc has anywhere near the PvP damage potential of Sorc, then you don't understand either class very well.

You mean burst combos that every player [Snip] can see from miles ahead? Magsorc burst combo is known for it's high effectiveness against potatatoes and mediocre effectiveness against everyone with some decent skill level. This is a main reason why stamsorc is still considered as better version of a class offensively speaking because he can add some more dmg pressure outside of that obvious combo.

Here is a quote showing what one of the ESO PvP streamers had to say about magsorc in his discord which more or less sums up the class current state

"PS: Try not to get rolldodged, or you'll lose your hair.
In general MagSorc suffers from easily avoided damgage output, i'd consider it a mediocre class currently, however you get to choose the fights you pick, have a good chance of making it out of trouble, and you are a noob slayer, basically playing COD on those kids."

U40 sure. U41 no, and U42 definitely not.

That quote is from april which is U41. While magsorc defense increased his combo remained unchanged. Yes thanks to increased defense You now have more freedom to do damage so Your overall dmg potenial increased but that doesn't change the fact Your combo is still one of the most predictable and avoidable combos in the game and damage wise You pretty much don't have anything else going on outside of that combo so You are just relying heavily on enemy either being squishy, making massive mistake or both.

[Edited quote]

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

so You are just relying heavily on enemy either being squishy, making massive mistake or both.

All the overpowered healy shields in the world aren't gonna change that for you. Instead of doubling down on the broken funny button, you should be asking for Sorc to have a more reliable offensive kit. Scribing helps some, but the sources for major crit chance still aren't that great, and Crystal Frags is still missing its stun.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

And you also completely ignored my statement that a 60k magicka setup does not output the damage needed for "Competitive" Mag Sorcs because of the sacrifices to get there. You can absolutely have fun with that setup and smash potatoes, but you simply won't have the damage output to put down other "great" players. To put it into your terms, it's the equivalent of running a mid 40k health Arcanist.

Sorc damage output is highly dependent on burst combo skill. If you are struggling to kill decent players on a 60k mag Sorc and struggling with 1vX in general, may I suggest working on your burst combos. If you think Arc has anywhere near the PvP damage potential of Sorc, then you don't understand either class very well.

You mean burst combos that every player [Snip] can see from miles ahead? Magsorc burst combo is known for it's high effectiveness against potatatoes and mediocre effectiveness against everyone with some decent skill level. This is a main reason why stamsorc is still considered as better version of a class offensively speaking because he can add some more dmg pressure outside of that obvious combo.

Here is a quote showing what one of the ESO PvP streamers had to say about magsorc in his discord which more or less sums up the class current state

"PS: Try not to get rolldodged, or you'll lose your hair.
In general MagSorc suffers from easily avoided damgage output, i'd consider it a mediocre class currently, however you get to choose the fights you pick, have a good chance of making it out of trouble, and you are a noob slayer, basically playing COD on those kids."

U40 sure. U41 no, and U42 definitely not.

That quote is from april which is U41. While magsorc defense increased his combo remained unchanged. Yes thanks to increased defense You now have more freedom to do damage so Your overall dmg potenial increased but that doesn't change the fact Your combo is still one of the most predictable and avoidable combos in the game and damage wise You pretty much don't have anything else going on outside of that combo so You are just relying heavily on enemy either being squishy, making massive mistake or both.

Not just increased defense, but also increased damage. In addition to the 10% max mag from Expert Summoner, magsorc gains an extra 8% via Bound Aegis due to Ward buff. Your standard Rally/Wretched/Chudan build with 39-40k max mag in U40 now has 47k max mag as a result of these 2 changes in U41.

NB is currently one of the hardest hitting classes in the game despite its combo being super predictable. The compounding damage modifiers NB received over the years have pushed Concealed tooltips to be higher than Dizzying Swing and Merciless Resolve to hit people for 20k+. Would you say NB is just relying on enemy being squishy, making massive mistakes, or both?

We both know that isn’t the case. Yes, the Sorc combo is easily predictable, but let’s not pretend Sorc isn’t pulling 4k-4.5k DPS in a sustained fight by simply throwing out damage. They don’t even try to combo. They just play it like a pressure build and still get high DPS.

I would agree with you about Sorc offense pre U41, but it’s definitely not the case anymore post U41. I’m in the same build for the past 3 patches, yet I’m taking 10k frag and 9k Curse in U41 compared to 9k Frag and 8k Curse in U40. Adding up all the damage sources and I’m taking at least 800 extra DPS post U41.

[Edited quote]

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

To be fair you're playing one of the worst classes to go against a Sorc. You have the least counters to the toolkit.

Nightblades can alternate Dodge roll and cloak to avoid most projectiles.

Templars can purge curse.

Dragonknights can slot wings.

Wardens purge curse with Betty and have a projectile shield.

Arcanists are extremely tanky and not as susceptible to burst damage.

With all that being said Sorcerers damage is in a great place right now. Much better than when I was asking for offensive buffs in the forums 2 years ago.

xylena_lazarow

Ooh this looks like a fun exercise.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Nightblades can alternate Dodge roll

Stronger NBs have Path up and will roll cancel into Healthy or Vigor in a single gcd.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Templars can purge curse

Ritual is significantly more expensive than Curse. Good luck with that.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Dragonknights can slot wings

LOL one of the worst skills in the game, Static posted videos of duelers trying to use it against Sorcs but doing nothing.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Wardens purge curse with Betty and have a projectile shield

Don't waste your mag on stalling. Shoot them back. Master Ice can threaten Sorcs.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Arcanists are extremely tanky and not as susceptible to burst damage

Assuming equal skill, how do you think the Arc is supposed to kill the Sorc?

Jsmalls wrote: »

With all that being said Sorcerers damage is in a great place right now. Much better than when I was asking for offensive buffs in the forums 2 years ago.

Hooray we finally agree on something. You were right to ignore Necro, way too op a class, needs a lot more nerfs.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Plus who is fighting in a zerg and acting like they matter lmao

Probably the 100+ zergers trying very hard to kill you at all times on GH.

Yeah I know BR gets pop during NA primetime, but the intensity doesn't compare. Just come to GH ; )

Also gotta love Smalls, Galeriano, and Bushido all giving the same 3 likes on each of the others' posts.

Honestly it's the same few people talking in here and I don't see likes, I see agrees as in I agree with what you're saying.

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Ooh this looks like a fun exercise.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Nightblades can alternate Dodge roll

Stronger NBs have Path up and will roll cancel into Healthy or Vigor in a single gcd.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Templars can purge curse

Ritual is significantly more expensive than Curse. Good luck with that.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Dragonknights can slot wings

LOL one of the worst skills in the game, Static posted videos of duelers trying to use it against Sorcs but doing nothing.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Wardens purge curse with Betty and have a projectile shield

Don't waste your mag on stalling. Shoot them back. Master Ice can threaten Sorcs.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Arcanists are extremely tanky and not as susceptible to burst damage

Assuming equal skill, how do you think the Arc is supposed to kill the Sorc?

Jsmalls wrote: »

With all that being said Sorcerers damage is in a great place right now. Much better than when I was asking for offensive buffs in the forums 2 years ago.

Hooray we finally agree on something. You were right to ignore Necro, way too op a class, needs a lot more nerfs.

And the nightblade if the Sorc is using Overload? They alternate roll dodge and cloak. What's the point here?

Yeah ritual is expensive, still gets used and still limits Sorcs burst, they can alternate Purge and roll dodge pretty effectively as well. Ryle of thumb you can get hit by the curse or frag. Just don't get hit by both.

My buddy slots wings for our 1v1s. The projectile back does like 4-5k damage and cuts my frags in half. It's added damage and a damage reduction. This really depends on your spammable projectile though, it doesn't work against imbue. Maybe that's what the Sorcs were using?

The Betty removes a negative effect every 5 seconds, it's a standard buff lmao they just get your passive Sorc counter (in 1v1s) for just buffing up. The shield definitely is a build choice but I'm saying flat out if a Warden chooses to include it, it pretty much shuts down my burst potential.

Arcanists are pressure classes now. Honestly I don't die to Arcanists this patch. Unless it's an exceptional Arcanist and I make a mistake or run out of resources (I don't have perma sustain).
Same goes for pressure DKs. Some of the strong leap whip DKs still get me though.


What did we accomplish with your exercise? You didn't deny anything other than wings. Which I shared my experience.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

What did we accomplish with your exercise?

Jsmalls wrote: »

Honestly I don't die to Arcanists this patch.

Hooray, now we don't have to talk about Arcs ITT anymore.

Jsmalls wrote: »

they can alternate Purge and roll dodge pretty effectively as well

Aside from the fact that Ritual spam is a good way to lose on your Plar... you know everyone can roll dodge right? And roll cancel into defensive skills? Do you roll cancel on your Sorc? That's what I do to survive without a burst heal.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

And you also completely ignored my statement that a 60k magicka setup does not output the damage needed for "Competitive" Mag Sorcs because of the sacrifices to get there. You can absolutely have fun with that setup and smash potatoes, but you simply won't have the damage output to put down other "great" players. To put it into your terms, it's the equivalent of running a mid 40k health Arcanist.

Sorc damage output is highly dependent on burst combo skill. If you are struggling to kill decent players on a 60k mag Sorc and struggling with 1vX in general, may I suggest working on your burst combos. If you think Arc has anywhere near the PvP damage potential of Sorc, then you don't understand either class very well.

You mean burst combos that every player [Snip] can see from miles ahead? Magsorc burst combo is known for it's high effectiveness against potatatoes and mediocre effectiveness against everyone with some decent skill level. This is a main reason why stamsorc is still considered as better version of a class offensively speaking because he can add some more dmg pressure outside of that obvious combo.

Here is a quote showing what one of the ESO PvP streamers had to say about magsorc in his discord which more or less sums up the class current state

"PS: Try not to get rolldodged, or you'll lose your hair.
In general MagSorc suffers from easily avoided damgage output, i'd consider it a mediocre class currently, however you get to choose the fights you pick, have a good chance of making it out of trouble, and you are a noob slayer, basically playing COD on those kids."

U40 sure. U41 no, and U42 definitely not.

That quote is from april which is U41. While magsorc defense increased his combo remained unchanged. Yes thanks to increased defense You now have more freedom to do damage so Your overall dmg potenial increased but that doesn't change the fact Your combo is still one of the most predictable and avoidable combos in the game and damage wise You pretty much don't have anything else going on outside of that combo so You are just relying heavily on enemy either being squishy, making massive mistake or both.

Not just increased defense, but also increased damage. In addition to the 10% max mag from Expert Summoner, magsorc gains an extra 8% via Bound Aegis due to Ward buff. Your standard Rally/Wretched/Chudan build with 39-40k max mag in U40 now has 47k max mag as a result of these 2 changes in U41.

NB is currently one of the hardest hitting classes in the game despite its combo being super predictable. The compounding damage modifiers NB received over the years have pushed Concealed tooltips to be higher than Dizzying Swing and Merciless Resolve to hit people for 20k+. Would you say NB is just relying on enemy being squishy, making massive mistakes, or both?

We both know that isn’t the case. Yes, the Sorc combo is easily predictable, but let’s not pretend Sorc isn’t pulling 4k-4.5k DPS in a sustained fight by simply throwing out damage. They don’t even try to combo. They just play it like a pressure build and still get high DPS.

I would agree with you about Sorc offense pre U41, but it’s definitely not the case anymore post U41. I’m in the same build for the past 3 patches, yet I’m taking 10k frag and 9k Curse in U41 compared to 9k Frag and 8k Curse in U40. Adding up all the damage sources and I’m taking at least 800 extra DPS post U41.

His combo remianed unchanged though. Yeah You can produce more damage with it when it lands but the thing is, in actuall PvP like Cyro and BGs it still only lands on players who are either bad, make mistake or both. And let's not forget that this buff comes after years of magsorc's dmg not reciving any significant buffs while in the same time overall defenses were gradually going up. 18% max mag bonus is not giving You +7-8k max magicka so You wouldn't just magically go from 39-40k to 47k. In order to do that some other investments would have to be made like adding max mag Cp or mage mundus which are both damage nerfs.

Nb is one of the hardest hitting classes in the game because to do so he doesn't even need a combo in a classical sense. He can dish out amount of damage equall to other class perfectly executed combo with 1 click and I am not even talking about merciless. He also have a massive adventage that element of suprise and cloak in general is. Not even current hardened ward can come close to what cloak offers. If nb comes to You in cloak and hits You with incap or just heavy attack that also procs like 2-3 other sets he deals more damage with that 1 click than what magsorc is doing with whole combo. Or he can just become snipe spammer and do more pressure with that 1 button spam than majority of sorcs will do with their whole rotations and perfect weaving. Merciless alone can do more damage than sorc's whole perfectly executed combo. Nightblade's freedom of choice when it comes to build options gives him massive adventage over the magsorc in terms or producing actuall dmg on people. His offensive and defensiuve passives empower these options greatly. Magsorc on the other hand is still tied to the same few setups, the same combo and the same idea of gameplay for few years straight he rarely can taste new flavour of the motnh sets. There is not even point in comparing a magsorc to a nightblade. Magsorc despite being good this patch is sill laging behind in terms of real PvP performance. In BG You can completly ignore bad magsorc but YOu cannot ignore nb even if he is a bad player because he will dish out 4-5 times more dmg than that sorc could while also being more elusive. Nb relies on his kit being overtuned more than any other class kit.

How many magsorcs per server can You name that are "pulling 4k-4.5k DPS in a sustained fight by simply throwing out damage"? These are complete outliers a fraction of percent basically the only ones that can literally make You fell that magsorc is strong. And how many nightblades per server can You name that can out of nowhere tap You with a "combo" which requires no skill to perform yet it is putting a heavy dent in Your healthbar or applies noticable dmg pressure?

800 extra DPS lol, majority of magsorcs is barely producing more than that amount in total and their burst combos are non existant. Nightblades can just spam snipe or apply poison injection with procs on or click incap, none of which requires any skill and already is more dangerous than what 99% of magsorcs can do. Like seriously You can just go way of fire+sheer venom or any other 2-3 proc sets combo on a nb, hit someone with poison injection and optionally some other ability, enter cloak and that alone will be enough to produce more dmg pressure on someone than what 99% of magsorcs could do to him. You can use tarnished+anthelmir+ optionally 3rd proc like flame blossom and just HA someone from cloak and that alone will create higher burst than perfectly timed magsorc burst combo. Magssorc can't repeat any of that. You talk about 9k curses and 10k frags in times when 9k concleaed weapon is no longer suprising anyone and that's a spammable ability. Your cruscade against magsorc is caused by sorc shield making magsorc harder to kill for You yet You bring results that maybe 50 sorcs per server is capable to achieve as an argument for nerfing the whole setup for everyone who plays it and You compare these results to the results that basically every nb [Snip] can achieve. Scale matters.

[Edited quote/for bait]

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

How many magsorcs per server can You name that are "pulling 4k-4.5k DPS in a sustained fight by simply throwing out damage"?

literally every competitive Sorc player

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

How many magsorcs per server can You name that are "pulling 4k-4.5k DPS in a sustained fight by simply throwing out damage"?

literally every competitive Sorc player

Like I said in terms of magsorc it will be like 50 players per server and even less of them will be an actuall threat. Majority will be just annoyance.

From my personal experience there is maybe like 2 or 3 magsorc players in BGs on my server that my non magsorc characters will be actually threatened by. If anything stamsorcs without shields are still far superior when it comes to dmg pressure.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

How many magsorcs per server can You name that are "pulling 4k-4.5k DPS in a sustained fight by simply throwing out damage"?

literally every competitive Sorc player

And this brings up a good point that really is an issue when people try to say what pvp is or isn't. We all play the same game but get different experiences based on so many varied factors. Who you play against, your level of skill, etc.

So we've got people out here trying to certify what's going on with ward with no clear way to eliminate or confirm their bias.

One person fights a hallway decent magsorc and ward is op. I fight one or two magsorcs in a BG/ open world and kill them with or without teammates or faction member and I'm like ward seems ok.

Also the idea of competitive meaning something in a game that doesn't have a good way to measure competitiveness seems very subjective.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

And this brings up a good point that really is an issue when people try to say what pvp is or isn't. We all play the same game but get different experiences based on so many varied factors. Who you play against, your level of skill, etc.

Said this over and over, surely the devs can figure a way to help casual Sorcs without breaking competitive play.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

And you also completely ignored my statement that a 60k magicka setup does not output the damage needed for "Competitive" Mag Sorcs because of the sacrifices to get there. You can absolutely have fun with that setup and smash potatoes, but you simply won't have the damage output to put down other "great" players. To put it into your terms, it's the equivalent of running a mid 40k health Arcanist.

Sorc damage output is highly dependent on burst combo skill. If you are struggling to kill decent players on a 60k mag Sorc and struggling with 1vX in general, may I suggest working on your burst combos. If you think Arc has anywhere near the PvP damage potential of Sorc, then you don't understand either class very well.

You mean burst combos that every player [Snip] can see from miles ahead? Magsorc burst combo is known for it's high effectiveness against potatatoes and mediocre effectiveness against everyone with some decent skill level. This is a main reason why stamsorc is still considered as better version of a class offensively speaking because he can add some more dmg pressure outside of that obvious combo.

Here is a quote showing what one of the ESO PvP streamers had to say about magsorc in his discord which more or less sums up the class current state

"PS: Try not to get rolldodged, or you'll lose your hair.
In general MagSorc suffers from easily avoided damgage output, i'd consider it a mediocre class currently, however you get to choose the fights you pick, have a good chance of making it out of trouble, and you are a noob slayer, basically playing COD on those kids."

U40 sure. U41 no, and U42 definitely not.

That quote is from april which is U41. While magsorc defense increased his combo remained unchanged. Yes thanks to increased defense You now have more freedom to do damage so Your overall dmg potenial increased but that doesn't change the fact Your combo is still one of the most predictable and avoidable combos in the game and damage wise You pretty much don't have anything else going on outside of that combo so You are just relying heavily on enemy either being squishy, making massive mistake or both.

Not just increased defense, but also increased damage. In addition to the 10% max mag from Expert Summoner, magsorc gains an extra 8% via Bound Aegis due to Ward buff. Your standard Rally/Wretched/Chudan build with 39-40k max mag in U40 now has 47k max mag as a result of these 2 changes in U41.

NB is currently one of the hardest hitting classes in the game despite its combo being super predictable. The compounding damage modifiers NB received over the years have pushed Concealed tooltips to be higher than Dizzying Swing and Merciless Resolve to hit people for 20k+. Would you say NB is just relying on enemy being squishy, making massive mistakes, or both?

We both know that isn’t the case. Yes, the Sorc combo is easily predictable, but let’s not pretend Sorc isn’t pulling 4k-4.5k DPS in a sustained fight by simply throwing out damage. They don’t even try to combo. They just play it like a pressure build and still get high DPS.

I would agree with you about Sorc offense pre U41, but it’s definitely not the case anymore post U41. I’m in the same build for the past 3 patches, yet I’m taking 10k frag and 9k Curse in U41 compared to 9k Frag and 8k Curse in U40. Adding up all the damage sources and I’m taking at least 800 extra DPS post U41.

His combo remianed unchanged though. Yeah You can produce more damage with it when it lands but the thing is, in actuall PvP like Cyro and BGs it still only lands on players who are either bad, make mistake or both. And let's not forget that this buff comes after years of magsorc's dmg not reciving any significant buffs while in the same time overall defenses were gradually going up. 18% max mag bonus is not giving You +7-8k max magicka so You wouldn't just magically go from 39-40k to 47k. In order to do that some other investments would have to be made like adding max mag Cp or mage mundus which are both damage nerfs.

Nb is one of the hardest hitting classes in the game because to do so he doesn't even need a combo in a classical sense. He can dish out amount of damage equall to other class perfectly executed combo with 1 click and I am not even talking about merciless. He also have a massive adventage that element of suprise and cloak in general is. Not even current hardened ward can come close to what cloak offers. If nb comes to You in cloak and hits You with incap or just heavy attack that also procs like 2-3 other sets he deals more damage with that 1 click than what magsorc is doing with whole combo. Or he can just become snipe spammer and do more pressure with that 1 button spam than majority of sorcs will do with their whole rotations and perfect weaving. Merciless alone can do more damage than sorc's whole perfectly executed combo. Nightblade's freedom of choice when it comes to build options gives him massive adventage over the magsorc in terms or producing actuall dmg on people. His offensive and defensiuve passives empower these options greatly. Magsorc on the other hand is still tied to the same few setups, the same combo and the same idea of gameplay for few years straight he rarely can taste new flavour of the motnh sets. There is not even point in comparing a magsorc to a nightblade. Magsorc despite being good this patch is sill laging behind in terms of real PvP performance. In BG You can completly ignore bad magsorc but YOu cannot ignore nb even if he is a bad player because he will dish out 4-5 times more dmg than that sorc could while also being more elusive. Nb relies on his kit being overtuned more than any other class kit.

How many magsorcs per server can You name that are "pulling 4k-4.5k DPS in a sustained fight by simply throwing out damage"? These are complete outliers a fraction of percent basically the only ones that can literally make You fell that magsorc is strong. And how many nightblades per server can You name that can out of nowhere tap You with a "combo" which requires no skill to perform yet it is putting a heavy dent in Your healthbar or applies noticable dmg pressure?

800 extra DPS lol, majority of magsorcs is barely producing more than that amount in total and their burst combos are non existant. Nightblades can just spam snipe or apply poison injection with procs on or click incap, none of which requires any skill and already is more dangerous than what 99% of magsorcs can do. Like seriously You can just go way of fire+sheer venom or any other 2-3 proc sets combo on a nb, hit someone with poison injection and optionally some other ability, enter cloak and that alone will be enough to produce more dmg pressure on someone than what 99% of magsorcs could do to him. You can use tarnished+anthelmir+ optionally 3rd proc like flame blossom and just HA someone from cloak and that alone will create higher burst than perfectly timed magsorc burst combo. Magssorc can't repeat any of that. You talk about 9k curses and 10k frags in times when 9k concleaed weapon is no longer suprising anyone and that's a spammable ability. Your cruscade against magsorc is caused by sorc shield making magsorc harder to kill for You yet You bring results that maybe 50 sorcs per server is capable to achieve as an argument for nerfing the whole setup for everyone who plays it and You compare these results to the results that basically every nb [Snip] can achieve. Scale matters.

Sorc can do the majority of things you described for NB with equal efficiency, but I don’t think you are willing to accept that.

[Edited quote]

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

And you also completely ignored my statement that a 60k magicka setup does not output the damage needed for "Competitive" Mag Sorcs because of the sacrifices to get there. You can absolutely have fun with that setup and smash potatoes, but you simply won't have the damage output to put down other "great" players. To put it into your terms, it's the equivalent of running a mid 40k health Arcanist.

Sorc damage output is highly dependent on burst combo skill. If you are struggling to kill decent players on a 60k mag Sorc and struggling with 1vX in general, may I suggest working on your burst combos. If you think Arc has anywhere near the PvP damage potential of Sorc, then you don't understand either class very well.

You mean burst combos that every player [Snip] can see from miles ahead? Magsorc burst combo is known for it's high effectiveness against potatatoes and mediocre effectiveness against everyone with some decent skill level. This is a main reason why stamsorc is still considered as better version of a class offensively speaking because he can add some more dmg pressure outside of that obvious combo.

Here is a quote showing what one of the ESO PvP streamers had to say about magsorc in his discord which more or less sums up the class current state

"PS: Try not to get rolldodged, or you'll lose your hair.
In general MagSorc suffers from easily avoided damgage output, i'd consider it a mediocre class currently, however you get to choose the fights you pick, have a good chance of making it out of trouble, and you are a noob slayer, basically playing COD on those kids."

U40 sure. U41 no, and U42 definitely not.

That quote is from april which is U41. While magsorc defense increased his combo remained unchanged. Yes thanks to increased defense You now have more freedom to do damage so Your overall dmg potenial increased but that doesn't change the fact Your combo is still one of the most predictable and avoidable combos in the game and damage wise You pretty much don't have anything else going on outside of that combo so You are just relying heavily on enemy either being squishy, making massive mistake or both.

Not just increased defense, but also increased damage. In addition to the 10% max mag from Expert Summoner, magsorc gains an extra 8% via Bound Aegis due to Ward buff. Your standard Rally/Wretched/Chudan build with 39-40k max mag in U40 now has 47k max mag as a result of these 2 changes in U41.

NB is currently one of the hardest hitting classes in the game despite its combo being super predictable. The compounding damage modifiers NB received over the years have pushed Concealed tooltips to be higher than Dizzying Swing and Merciless Resolve to hit people for 20k+. Would you say NB is just relying on enemy being squishy, making massive mistakes, or both?

We both know that isn’t the case. Yes, the Sorc combo is easily predictable, but let’s not pretend Sorc isn’t pulling 4k-4.5k DPS in a sustained fight by simply throwing out damage. They don’t even try to combo. They just play it like a pressure build and still get high DPS.

I would agree with you about Sorc offense pre U41, but it’s definitely not the case anymore post U41. I’m in the same build for the past 3 patches, yet I’m taking 10k frag and 9k Curse in U41 compared to 9k Frag and 8k Curse in U40. Adding up all the damage sources and I’m taking at least 800 extra DPS post U41.

His combo remianed unchanged though. Yeah You can produce more damage with it when it lands but the thing is, in actuall PvP like Cyro and BGs it still only lands on players who are either bad, make mistake or both. And let's not forget that this buff comes after years of magsorc's dmg not reciving any significant buffs while in the same time overall defenses were gradually going up. 18% max mag bonus is not giving You +7-8k max magicka so You wouldn't just magically go from 39-40k to 47k. In order to do that some other investments would have to be made like adding max mag Cp or mage mundus which are both damage nerfs.

Nb is one of the hardest hitting classes in the game because to do so he doesn't even need a combo in a classical sense. He can dish out amount of damage equall to other class perfectly executed combo with 1 click and I am not even talking about merciless. He also have a massive adventage that element of suprise and cloak in general is. Not even current hardened ward can come close to what cloak offers. If nb comes to You in cloak and hits You with incap or just heavy attack that also procs like 2-3 other sets he deals more damage with that 1 click than what magsorc is doing with whole combo. Or he can just become snipe spammer and do more pressure with that 1 button spam than majority of sorcs will do with their whole rotations and perfect weaving. Merciless alone can do more damage than sorc's whole perfectly executed combo. Nightblade's freedom of choice when it comes to build options gives him massive adventage over the magsorc in terms or producing actuall dmg on people. His offensive and defensiuve passives empower these options greatly. Magsorc on the other hand is still tied to the same few setups, the same combo and the same idea of gameplay for few years straight he rarely can taste new flavour of the motnh sets. There is not even point in comparing a magsorc to a nightblade. Magsorc despite being good this patch is sill laging behind in terms of real PvP performance. In BG You can completly ignore bad magsorc but YOu cannot ignore nb even if he is a bad player because he will dish out 4-5 times more dmg than that sorc could while also being more elusive. Nb relies on his kit being overtuned more than any other class kit.

How many magsorcs per server can You name that are "pulling 4k-4.5k DPS in a sustained fight by simply throwing out damage"? These are complete outliers a fraction of percent basically the only ones that can literally make You fell that magsorc is strong. And how many nightblades per server can You name that can out of nowhere tap You with a "combo" which requires no skill to perform yet it is putting a heavy dent in Your healthbar or applies noticable dmg pressure?

800 extra DPS lol, majority of magsorcs is barely producing more than that amount in total and their burst combos are non existant. Nightblades can just spam snipe or apply poison injection with procs on or click incap, none of which requires any skill and already is more dangerous than what 99% of magsorcs can do. Like seriously You can just go way of fire+sheer venom or any other 2-3 proc sets combo on a nb, hit someone with poison injection and optionally some other ability, enter cloak and that alone will be enough to produce more dmg pressure on someone than what 99% of magsorcs could do to him. You can use tarnished+anthelmir+ optionally 3rd proc like flame blossom and just HA someone from cloak and that alone will create higher burst than perfectly timed magsorc burst combo. Magssorc can't repeat any of that. You talk about 9k curses and 10k frags in times when 9k concleaed weapon is no longer suprising anyone and that's a spammable ability. Your cruscade against magsorc is caused by sorc shield making magsorc harder to kill for You yet You bring results that maybe 50 sorcs per server is capable to achieve as an argument for nerfing the whole setup for everyone who plays it and You compare these results to the results that basically every nb [Snip] can achieve. Scale matters.

Sorc can do the majority of things you described for NB with equal efficiency, but I don’t think you are willing to accept that.

Stamsorc can but not to a nb degree, magsorc simply cannot but I don't think You're willing to accept that.

Out of pure curosity, from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb? Keep in mind that I've been putting strong emphasis on how easy all mentioned things are to achieve on nb which is a important part to remember when talking about efficiency of something.

[Edited quote]

master_vanargand

Sorcerer talks as if Nightblade has every skill slotted and available.
In reality, only has 10 skill slots and 2 ultimate slots, so the Sorcerer's claims a lie.
The decent Nightblade doesn't even use Shadow Image because uses Scribing.
In reality, Sorcerer use bugged skills (Structured Entropy, Elemental Susceptibility) that destroy stealth and kill the Nightblade very easily, make fun of Nightblade.