Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

TechMaybeHic · May 20

Certainly wasn't said when Templars were on top. Some reason, templars should not have basically a curse you had to fill up AND be able to heal so well. Now their combined heals doesn't match and their burst hits even weaker than 1 hit of curse. But RO though!

DaisyRay · May 21

I just wanted to follow up on my earlier comment since I recently tested my own characters. I also filmed it if you want to see it, but it was nothing special. What I found was that my sorcerer’s defenses were better than my dragonknight's, so I may have been wrong before. However, it could also be because I didn't have a great build on my dk, so she got mopped up very quickly.

I dueled a good friend of mine using three classes: sorcerer, warden, and dragonknight. He had a really strong gank nb build and dealt a lot of damage. I wanted the test to be as realistic as possible.

Results:
- My sorc lasted almost a minute by just healing, shielding, and dodging attacks.
- My dk died instantly the first time (probably due to my bad build). The second time, she lasted thirty seconds using the same strategy of healing and defensive moves.
- My warden couldn’t be killed at all because her heals were just too op.

So, my opinion has changed a little. While my dk's heal did more, it wasn't a match for my sorc's heal and shield combination. If my dk had a shield, she probably would have lasted longer. However, I should note that I don't really play my dk much, so her build was kind of mid. Now when you compare them both to my warden, her healing is a lot stronger than both of theirs combined.

After the duel, I discussed it with my friend, and he agreed with you all that the sorc shield should be nerfed (and he was a sorc main for a few years). We both think they should remove healing from the shield, buff the healing from dark deal, and make it instant so it can be on the same level as the other classes. However.... again, I don't think that the sorc shield and heal is op, but I do agree it is better than some classes when it comes to defense. I haven't tested it against any other classes, but I can say I was wrong about the dk heal being better. At least from what I did on my own.

HowlKimchi · May 21

DaisyRay wrote: »

I just wanted to follow up on my earlier comment since I recently tested my own characters. I also filmed it if you want to see it, but it was nothing special. What I found was that my sorcerer’s defenses were better than my dragonknight's, so I may have been wrong before. However, it could also be because I didn't have a great build on my dk, so she got mopped up very quickly.

I dueled a good friend of mine using three classes: sorcerer, warden, and dragonknight. He had a really strong gank nb build and dealt a lot of damage. I wanted the test to be as realistic as possible.

Results:
- My sorc lasted almost a minute by just healing, shielding, and dodging attacks.
- My dk died instantly the first time (probably due to my bad build). The second time, she lasted thirty seconds using the same strategy of healing and defensive moves.
- My warden couldn’t be killed at all because her heals were just too op.

So, my opinion has changed a little. While my dk's heal did more, it wasn't a match for my sorc's heal and shield combination. If my dk had a shield, she probably would have lasted longer. However, I should note that I don't really play my dk much, so her build was kind of mid. Now when you compare them both to my warden, her healing is a lot stronger than both of theirs combined.

After the duel, I discussed it with my friend, and he agreed with you all that the sorc shield should be nerfed (and he was a sorc main for a few years). We both think they should remove healing from the shield, buff the healing from dark deal, and make it instant so it can be on the same level as the other classes. However.... again, I don't think that the sorc shield and heal is op, but I do agree it is better than some classes when it comes to defense. I haven't tested it against any other classes, but I can say I was wrong about the dk heal being better. At least from what I did on my own.

Proper way to approach this. Kudos my man.

HowlKimchi · May 21

RomanRex wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

not the interclass imbalances

[snip]

[snip]

TBF your comment wasn't a genuine contribution. PVE shouldn't factor in at all in this discussion as we are in the PVP section. It is not up to us to decide how to fix the skill. It is up to us to show that a skill is overperforming and then we let the developers decide how to fix it.

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave · May 21

DaisyRay wrote: »

I just wanted to follow up on my earlier comment since I recently tested my own characters. I also filmed it if you want to see it, but it was nothing special. What I found was that my sorcerer’s defenses were better than my dragonknight's, so I may have been wrong before. However, it could also be because I didn't have a great build on my dk, so she got mopped up very quickly.

I dueled a good friend of mine using three classes: sorcerer, warden, and dragonknight. He had a really strong gank nb build and dealt a lot of damage. I wanted the test to be as realistic as possible.

Results:
- My sorc lasted almost a minute by just healing, shielding, and dodging attacks.
- My dk died instantly the first time (probably due to my bad build). The second time, she lasted thirty seconds using the same strategy of healing and defensive moves.
- My warden couldn’t be killed at all because her heals were just too op.

So, my opinion has changed a little. While my dk's heal did more, it wasn't a match for my sorc's heal and shield combination. If my dk had a shield, she probably would have lasted longer. However, I should note that I don't really play my dk much, so her build was kind of mid. Now when you compare them both to my warden, her healing is a lot stronger than both of theirs combined.

After the duel, I discussed it with my friend, and he agreed with you all that the sorc shield should be nerfed (and he was a sorc main for a few years). We both think they should remove healing from the shield, buff the healing from dark deal, and make it instant so it can be on the same level as the other classes. However.... again, I don't think that the sorc shield and heal is op, but I do agree it is better than some classes when it comes to defense. I haven't tested it against any other classes, but I can say I was wrong about the dk heal being better. At least from what I did on my own.

👏👏👏

THANK YOU.

Regardless of what your conclusion is, I thank you for doing the testing yourself and helping contribute to the discussion in a more productive way! I wish more people would do this instead of just arguing for the sake of it.

StaticWave · May 21

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Why won't You do it? You have a DK friend already set up so it's a perfect opportunity for controled enviroment since You will be able to fight against the same setup used by the same player.

I would atleast want to know what do You think is so specific about sorc that other classes don't have outside of shield that You were able to withstand that DK for 2,5 minute while producing 3,1k DPS even without shield? Is non shield sorc so extremly more tanky than other classes can be that they wouldn't be able to repeat what You did in that 1st duel?

You've spend hours upon hours commenting in this thread throughout last months sometines posting completly unrelated stuff and now suddenly it's not worth Your time explaining something?

Which I already did.

1st test with burst heal: 6.4k HPS, 1.9k stam drain per second, 1.2k mag drain per second, 3.1k DPS done

2nd test with Ward: 7.3k HPS, 1.6k stam drain per scond, 1.1k mag drain per scond, 3.5k DPS done

By slotting Ward, I drained less stam and mag per second (translating to better sustain), has a higher HPS (translating to better survivability), and did more DPS. There is no need to do another test lol. Even if I slotted a better burst heal, which I don't have on the class right now, I will still not reach the same survivability and sustain.

I also died in the 1st test, whereas I stalemated in the 2nd test (but I got him low to 20% HP several times). Did you intentionally skip that part? Did you also skip the part where I said I did 7 duels before that with a burst heal and had a hard time until I slotted Ward?

Like I said, it's pointless explaining to you because you're probably going to dismiss it. So I suggest you go and do the test yourself. Fight a DK that can do 6k DPS, then test Ward vs no Ward. I'm 100% confident you're going to find Ward a lot easier to survive and just flat-out better in every way.

Umm Your answer completly misses the subject of my question. I said that You have a perfect enviroment to test other classes because You can test them against the same player that Your sorc was facing.

Of course You will be having better HPS with ward than with void because Your max HPS is limited by Your enemy DPS and with void slotted You had major maim applied to enemy and Your were most propably blocking his attacks more often which caused his maximum possible DPS to drop and that also caused Your maximum possible HPS to drop because You can't have cmx HPS in a duel higher than enemy's DPS. This is also why Your fixation about asking "can other classes survive 7,3k DPS" is flawed, because the same DK in the same setup wouldn't do 7,3k DPS to other classes because many of them are better brawlers and have better dmg reduction tools in their class kits plus they would rely more often on block which could drop that particular DK's DPS even down to the areas of under 6k.

No I did not skip the part where You were talking about dying in 1st duel I am fully aware You died in it but still surviving 6,3k DPS for 2,5 minute while producing 3,1k DPS when using medium sized burst heal is still worth to notice. If anyone is intentionally skipping anything I would say it's You because for few comments straight already You are avoiding really hard certain questions I've been asking You and You preffer to respond to loosely related stuff and to only certain parts of my comments that are not even questions I've made which is somewhat an irony.

I asked You do You expect for a AoE group heal+debuff to be better source of self defense in duel than ability designed purely for self defense. Also calling void a burst heal without pointing out it's not the same burst heals like the other abilities considered as such is like slotting a combat prayer on templar instead of Honor the Dead and calling that a burst heal. Sorc's only true burst heals are present in the form of pets. AoE heals are second hand burst heals at best. Like man Your max crit value on void with major+minor mending is 9k which is lower than what regular burst heals are pullihg without these buffs. Your dark deal was healing Your almost the same amount which just goes to show how poor of a burst heal void is.

Because of that I asked You a question why do You expect that classes with better brawling tools and stronger burst heals than sorc would have issues to survive that DK if Your sorc with mediocre burst heal and without shield was still able to survive for 2,5 minute before dying.

I asked the DK friend that I tested the duels with in the CMX screenshots:

I’m not going to explain further. You can either test it yourself, or believe what we said. Your call.

StaticWave · May 21

HowlKimchi wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

not the interclass imbalances

[snip]

[snip]

TBF your comment wasn't a genuine contribution. PVE shouldn't factor in at all in this discussion as we are in the PVP section. It is not up to us to decide how to fix the skill. It is up to us to show that a skill is overperforming and then we let the developers decide how to fix it.

Right? Several people here think I am going on a crusade against Ward, which is completely not true. This is the only patch where Hardened Ward rightfully deserves its own nerf thread. There have been many nerf threads for other overperforming burst heals already, two of which were created by me:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/635679/revert-the-class-burst-heal-from-nb/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7907003#Comment_7907003

You can find plenty more examples where people complain about healing in general:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/657721/pvp-healing-majorly-overtuned
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/652594/healing-is-too-strong-dynamic-scaling-of-healing-to-fix
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/657710/healing-in-pvp

Sorc isn't getting the pass, sorry

[edited to remove quote]

TechMaybeHic · May 21

Lol got my sorc build drawn up. 16k shield and 11k heal?! I realize shields dont crit but this is like giving imy HTD crit value every time. Does the heal part of it crit?

The values effective health closest equivalent is resolving vigor if Vigor did its full heal instantly

StaticWave · May 21

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Lol got my sorc build drawn up. 16k shield and 11k heal?! I realize shields dont crit but this is like giving imy HTD crit value every time. Does the heal part of it crit?

The values effective health closest equivalent is resolving vigor if Vigor did its full heal instantly

Yes, the heal part crits. Crazy right? Enjoy the OPness lmao

HowlKimchi · May 21

StaticWave wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

not the interclass imbalances

[snip]

[snip]

TBF your comment wasn't a genuine contribution. PVE shouldn't factor in at all in this discussion as we are in the PVP section. It is not up to us to decide how to fix the skill. It is up to us to show that a skill is overperforming and then we let the developers decide how to fix it.

Right? Several people here think I am going on a crusade against Ward, which is completely not true. This is the only patch where Hardened Ward rightfully deserves its own nerf thread. There have been many nerf threads for other overperforming burst heals already, two of which were created by me:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/635679/revert-the-class-burst-heal-from-nb/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7907003#Comment_7907003

You can find plenty more examples where people complain about healing in general:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/657721/pvp-healing-majorly-overtuned
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/652594/healing-is-too-strong-dynamic-scaling-of-healing-to-fix
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/657710/healing-in-pvp

Sorc isn't getting the pass, sorry

Agreed. Everyone having access to OP healing really took the fun out of cyrodiil.

I've been maining nightblades for open world pvp since the game was released and while NBs have everything nowadays, it's not my favorite era of ESO from a build-making perspective. I miss the times where you have meaningful trade-offs when making your build. These days I just stack all damage sets because (1) I can and because (2) I have to.

(1) I can because healthy offering and hybridization let's me have all the healing and sustain I need to comfortably fight multiple people,

(2) I have to because If i dont, I wont be able to reliably kill people have 35k+ hp these days with insane healing, ( not to mention healers with ~45k hp sitting on the back in the siege lines spamming heals such that if you dont 100-0 someone in 2 or 3 gcds, the healer brings him to full is obnoxious)

In the good ol days, trade-offs existed, and I built my NB with just enough damage so I can burst people with the combo, while having enough sustain to survive. The main problem was having access to reliable healing. I tried a lot of things from troll king + health recovery stacking (endurance bow backbar), the classic relying on cloak + rally for a big crit heal every 20 seconds or so, etc.

That doesn't matter now. You just have to pop healthy offering and you're gucci. Then I find out that cloak now has passive major prophecy AND merciless resolve now gains stacks passively which doesn't expire outside fights and I can't help but laugh. It's too much and needs nerfs.

Having said that though, hardened ward is still the most egregious case of a stupidly overpowered buff making it to the live game. It is ridiculously easy to pilot magsorcs with the new ward while being able to streak away to totally disengage from fights which not even cloak can do reliably. all while having access to regular bursts of damage with curse+frags every 6 seconds at full range.

Dumb sorcs who don't maintain their wards have so much breathing room when they're bursted down to execute range because they don't have to weapon swap to access their full defensive combo which is spamming a grand total of 1 skill which is actually optimal when put in the front bar.

But who cares right, im not a "real sorc" as people mention in these threads so I don't really understand why sorcs actually need this change and i'm a stinky nightblade so i should just shut up amirite.

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave · May 21

HowlKimchi wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

not the interclass imbalances

[snip]

[snip]

TBF your comment wasn't a genuine contribution. PVE shouldn't factor in at all in this discussion as we are in the PVP section. It is not up to us to decide how to fix the skill. It is up to us to show that a skill is overperforming and then we let the developers decide how to fix it.

Right? Several people here think I am going on a crusade against Ward, which is completely not true. This is the only patch where Hardened Ward rightfully deserves its own nerf thread. There have been many nerf threads for other overperforming burst heals already, two of which were created by me:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/635679/revert-the-class-burst-heal-from-nb/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7907003#Comment_7907003

You can find plenty more examples where people complain about healing in general:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/657721/pvp-healing-majorly-overtuned
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/652594/healing-is-too-strong-dynamic-scaling-of-healing-to-fix
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/657710/healing-in-pvp

Sorc isn't getting the pass, sorry

Agreed. Everyone having access to OP healing really took the fun out of cyrodiil.

I've been maining nightblades for open world pvp since the game was released and while NBs have everything nowadays, it's not my favorite era of ESO from a build-making perspective. I miss the times where you have meaningful trade-offs when making your build. These days I just stack all damage sets because (1) I can and because (2) I have to.

(1) I can because healthy offering and hybridization let's me have all the healing and sustain I need to comfortably fight multiple people,

(2) I have to because If i dont, I wont be able to reliably kill people have 35k+ hp these days with insane healing, ( not to mention healers with ~45k hp sitting on the back in the siege lines spamming heals such that if you dont 100-0 someone in 2 or 3 gcds, the healer brings him to full is obnoxious)

In the good ol days, trade-offs existed, and I built my NB with just enough damage so I can burst people with the combo, while having enough sustain to survive. The main problem was having access to reliable healing. I tried a lot of things from troll king + health recovery stacking (endurance bow backbar), the classic relying on cloak + rally for a big crit heal every 20 seconds or so, etc.

That doesn't matter now. You just have to pop healthy offering and you're gucci. Then I find out that cloak now has passive major prophecy AND merciless resolve now gains stacks passively which doesn't expire outside fights and I can't help but laugh. It's too much and needs nerfs.

Having said that though, hardened ward is still the most egregious case of a stupidly overpowered buff making it to the live game. It is ridiculously easy to pilot magsorcs with the new ward while being able to streak away to totally disengage from fights which not even cloak can do reliably. all while having access to regular bursts of damage with curse+frags every 6 seconds at full range.

Dumb sorcs who don't maintain their wards have so much breathing room when they're bursted down to execute range because they don't have to weapon swap to access their full defensive combo which is spamming a grand total of 1 skill which is actually optimal when put in the front bar.

But who cares right, im not a "real sorc" as people mention in these threads so I don't really understand why sorcs actually need this change and i'm a stinky nightblade so i should just shut up amirite.

Stat inflation is a real thing. Take this screenshot from a a 1vX video I did 4 years ago:

5.1k non crit Dizzying Swing with almost 6k WD and 27k stam, no Major Breach, no Essence Thief, etc.

To get that 5.1k non crit Dizzying Swing in today's meta, I have to stack upwards of 7k weapon damage, 17-18k pen, Major Berserk, etc.

There was no way you could have 35k+ HP, 6k+ WD, 20K+ Pen, 1.5k+ mag and stam recov, 27k resistances, and high crit damage/crit healing in past metas. Yet you could do similar damage to someone compared to today.

Biggest difference though is everyone had lower HP back then, and crit healing/excessive sources of weapon damage weren't as prevalent. Then there's also Undeath. I wasn't a vampire in that screenshot. Well, I am now lol.

[edited to remove quote]

Turtle_Bot · May 21

DaisyRay wrote: »

I just wanted to follow up on my earlier comment since I recently tested my own characters. I also filmed it if you want to see it, but it was nothing special. What I found was that my sorcerer’s defenses were better than my dragonknight's, so I may have been wrong before. However, it could also be because I didn't have a great build on my dk, so she got mopped up very quickly.

I dueled a good friend of mine using three classes: sorcerer, warden, and dragonknight. He had a really strong gank nb build and dealt a lot of damage. I wanted the test to be as realistic as possible.

Results:
- My sorc lasted almost a minute by just healing, shielding, and dodging attacks.
- My dk died instantly the first time (probably due to my bad build). The second time, she lasted thirty seconds using the same strategy of healing and defensive moves.
- My warden couldn’t be killed at all because her heals were just too op.

So, my opinion has changed a little. While my dk's heal did more, it wasn't a match for my sorc's heal and shield combination. If my dk had a shield, she probably would have lasted longer. However, I should note that I don't really play my dk much, so her build was kind of mid. Now when you compare them both to my warden, her healing is a lot stronger than both of theirs combined.

After the duel, I discussed it with my friend, and he agreed with you all that the sorc shield should be nerfed (and he was a sorc main for a few years). We both think they should remove healing from the shield, buff the healing from dark deal, and make it instant so it can be on the same level as the other classes. However.... again, I don't think that the sorc shield and heal is op, but I do agree it is better than some classes when it comes to defense. I haven't tested it against any other classes, but I can say I was wrong about the dk heal being better. At least from what I did on my own.

This has been what I have found when playing these 3 classes as well.

I will add that NB is also up there in survivability, on par with DK in terms of tanking through heals, but easily outclasses the other 3, even sorc, when it comes to kiting thanks to cloak, movement speed and general evasiveness depending on the situation. The dodge cost reduction is huge here too, far too many NBs are sleeping on that secondary effect of blur.

xylena_lazarow · May 21

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Certainly wasn't said when Templars were on top.

Right? One of the best metas, don't think I recall a single complaint about Templars or class balance in general from this era, just a few proc set problems that were easily addressed. Melee brawling is the most "fair" PvP you're gonna find in this game, the whole thing falls apart when they power up "unfair" tactics like ranged nuking and spammable disengage.

StaticWave · May 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Certainly wasn't said when Templars were on top.

Right? One of the best metas, don't think I recall a single complaint about Templars or class balance in general from this era, just a few proc set problems that were easily addressed. Melee brawling is the most "fair" PvP you're gonna find in this game, the whole thing falls apart when they power up "unfair" tactics like ranged nuking and spammable disengage.

I think the only issue with Templar meta was PL/PoTL bug, which allowed the class to stack damage faster than intended. Otherwise, it was pretty managable.

xylena_lazarow · May 21

StaticWave wrote: »

I think the only issue with Templar meta was PL/PoTL bug, which allowed the class to stack damage faster than intended. Otherwise, it was pretty managable.

Really? Never even noticed lol. I remember pre-nerf Acuity being kinda nutty, but that wasn't a Templar problem.

Thank you @DaisyRay and @Jsmalls for debating in good faith, and for providing test analyses and build screenshots.

xylena_lazarow · May 21

HowlKimchi wrote: »

(2) I have to because If i dont, I wont be able to reliably kill people have 35k+ hp these days with insane healing, ( not to mention healers with ~45k hp sitting on the back in the siege lines spamming heals such that if you dont 100-0 someone in 2 or 3 gcds, the healer brings him to full is obnoxious)

This is one of the best summations of why the "tank meta" sucks.

HowlKimchi wrote: »

But who cares right, im not a "real sorc" as people mention in these threads so I don't really understand why sorcs actually need this change and i'm a stinky nightblade so i should just shut up amirite.

Gotta love the people responding to CMX analyses with what might as well be "oh yeah well uh, I'm wearing a robe and wizard hat IRL right now, also did I mention I'm really loyal."

Turtle_Bot · May 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I think the only issue with Templar meta was PL/PoTL bug, which allowed the class to stack damage faster than intended. Otherwise, it was pretty managable.

Really? Never even noticed lol. I remember pre-nerf Acuity being kinda nutty, but that wasn't a Templar problem.

There were a lot of complaints about plars in that patch, especially later on in the patch once that bug/interaction became widely known. You couldn't go 5 mins without seeing a comment about it in ZC in Alik'r or cyro and plar was the only class that showed up to alik'r for dueling by the end of the patch because it was completely uncounterable (more so than even savage werewolf bow sorcs were the previous patch).

PotL/PL was so broken with that bug, that the ability was a legitimately viable, 1 button, spammable that also tripled up as a delayed burst ability and execute all in 1, that also inflicted breach, where if you cast it 3 times on someone, they just died if they couldn't cleanse it or weren't a corrosive DK, even if you didn't deal any other damage to them.
2 casts of it was enough to put them in range for the first tick of beams damage to kill them. This was at full range too btw, since PotL was (and still is) 28m range which gets increased by the reach passive.

The ONLY reason there weren't even more complaints about PotL specifically, was because of the other things that existed in that patch and had existed in the previous patch:

Wardens had just gotten their buffs that enabled their perma CC build at this same time (arctic instant stun and frost wall refreshed its immobilize proc every tick).
NB had just gotten their first round of buffs/reworks
DK was still king of the meta, far ahead of every other class (outside of specifically the PotL bug) with their perma (free) ash cloud infinite sustain interaction and permanent corrosive.
Sorc had just been deleted from the game for the sins of savage werewolf and oakensoul
Necro was just coming down from being not only the best ranged convergence bomber in the game, but, thanks to the (at the time) broken intensive mender that gave that class a free burst heal every 2 seconds they were immortal too (which got its healing halved in that patch because it was that OP.
Original Oakensoul, where everyone was a 1 bar god-mode, DK had literal permanent corrosive, NB could hit you with 25k AW (before NB got buffed), heal-bot polar wardens that could single handedly keep a small scale alive against a faction stack in open field, immortal necro convergence bombers that bombed from full range, Sorc atro spam, etc.

There's a reason that PotL/PL got so heavily gutted in U36 and ZOS has been extremely over-cautious in bringing that ability back up ever since:

This was around the time I was doing a lot of dueling with friends in alik'r and duo/4 man in cyro and was playing a lot at that time. I was on my DW/frost staff stamden for that patch because sorc (mag especially) was unplayable.

TL//DR, I was playing a lot that patch, mostly switching between my stamden (when dueling/in cyro with friends) and trying to find a way to make magsorc function at all (when solo) and plar was being complained about, a lot, specifically for that bug, as was perma cc wardens, warden heal-bots and perma-corrosive DKs (NB weren't being complained about yet since they had finally made magblade into a viable spec that patch and everyone was happy to see magblade exist again).

TechMaybeHic · May 21

Just did a mock up of my templar running the same thing I did for the sorc, just to see the heal. It goes beyond just hardened ward but that certainly is what makes it all possible. Using Templar because I know it, it's not necro bad, and it's not NB good. Somewhere in between

HTD winds up being about the same as just the shield part of hardened ward so about an 11k shortfall, which is crazy

Templar misses a passive minor resolve and Minor protection (could using a spear ability but at range, should be saving that for CC to start a burst window and not spamming IMO) to go along with 8% increased mag in bound aeg, and that's huge. Would have to slot vigor and activate to get the minor resolve so that would make up for healing above and get the minor resolve but...

To have a poor man's kite tool to compare to Streak, Elusive mist might be your best choice. Gives you the major expedition then that the yemplar armor buff won't. But you don't have a CC, so that will be another slot. Strike from shadows from that we can say give a spell damage equivalent to the 8% mag increase of bound aegis although it would be a struggle to keep 100% uptime

POTL/PL at fill is around one tick of curse. Kind of crazy. Templar does have Radiant Oppression, but sorc will have frags at 20k tooltip somewhat regularly.

Templar has a bit more sustain built into its armor and force pulse has maybe 900 total more damage (maybe tge strike from shadows passive being considered)

People can take from that what they want but to me, sorc is just easier to play with the shield and heal being all on 1 button press saving a GCD, and having so much just from 2 slots you never have to push. At the sane time, it has high end delayed burst beyond maybe all but shalks, and the closest thing to NB spectral bow for a damage proc. All its missing is a Radiant Oppression level execute and it would be an all star cast of all the other classes combined

xylena_lazarow · May 21

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I was on my DW/frost staff stamden for that patch because sorc (mag especially) was unplayable.

Fair to describe your experience and observations, but Alikr casuals are going to complain about the S tier regardless of actual balance. This was also while I was maining dw/ice Sorc myself, definitely not unplayable, held up against Plars just fine, if I lost to a Plar it was because the opponent was good, not class imbalance, maybe some blame on Acuity.

Backlash was only a problem when some back line zerger or healbot could cast it on you and then other players could charge up the damage. Current Sorc Curse hits as hard as old Backlash (twice) and you don't even need to charge it up.

Turtle_Bot · May 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I was on my DW/frost staff stamden for that patch because sorc (mag especially) was unplayable.

Fair to describe your experience and observations, but Alikr casuals are going to complain about the S tier regardless of actual balance. This was also while I was maining dw/ice Sorc myself, definitely not unplayable, held up against Plars just fine, if I lost to a Plar it was because the opponent was good, not class imbalance, maybe some blame on Acuity.

Backlash was only a problem when some back line zerger or healbot could cast it on you and then other players could charge up the damage. Current Sorc Curse hits as hard as old Backlash (twice) and you don't even need to charge it up.

DW/ice sorc (in other words, stamsorc, or early MDW procsorc) was playable that patch. That's why I specified magsorc specifically instead of just saying sorc.
Note: that this was the same patch that malcolm dropped magsorc entirely because of how bad it was. If that's not any reliable indicator of magsorc specifically being unplayable at that time, nothing will convince you of how bad magsorc specifically was during that time.

In regards to your experience regarding backlash, it's likely down to the differences between the player attitudes on the servers that we play on.
From what I've seen (and what I've experienced in my limited time playing on PC NA) PC NA seems to have a significantly greater number of casual/low skilled/or simply more chill, players compared to PC EU, or at the very least, PC NA doesn't have as many "win at all costs, nothing else matters" players compared to PC EU, where there are so many more players that are willing to utilize/abuse every little bug, exploit, mechanic, interaction, etc. they can get away with to win, like it's literally their life on the line if they don't win.
That player attitude makes a huge difference in how prevalent something like backlash (or savage werewolf) will be in PvP, which is probably why you never saw it as much of an issue compared to how bad it was on PC EU.

Adernath · May 21

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

36 pages and this topic is still running... time to close it for good maybe?

Its not that everyone is playing a sorc out of a sudden. Now time has gone by, and from my experience, many players are still playing DK/warden/NB... these classes are still much more present than sorc, templar and necro. So the changes look good from a statistical point of view. End of story.

xylena_lazarow · May 21

Adernath wrote: »

So the changes look good from a statistical point of view. End of story.

Not quite the end. Please provide these statistics. Thank you.

xylena_lazarow · May 21

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Also what data excatly You want me to provide?

It could be CMX, it could be a build page, it could be tooltips, it could even be a written analysis of a test like what Daisy did with her Sorc, DK, and Warden. You keep saying "your argument is flawed" over and over without ever engaging the actual topic we're arguing. If my argument is flawed, prove it wrong with data and analysis, enough rhetoric already.

The burden of proof is now on you.

Galeriano2 · May 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Also what data excatly You want me to provide?

It could be CMX, it could be a build page, it could be tooltips, it could even be a written analysis of a test like what Daisy did with her Sorc, DK, and Warden. You keep saying "your argument is flawed" over and over without ever engaging the actual topic we're arguing. If my argument is flawed, prove it wrong with data and analysis, enough rhetoric already.

The burden of proof is now on you.

And what would these cmx or build pages have to show excatly?

When I say someone's argument is flawed I usually provide an explanation why which is quite frankly more than You're often able to do. If someone have good counterarguments he/she is free to provide them. There are still some axioms that don't require to be proved by screenshots. For example when static was claiming bound aegis can provide up to 5,5k max magicka I don't need to link any cmx or build page to prove him wrong. I also don't need to provide any screenshots to comment on the fact that build You've linked had no dark conversion slotted which made it highly situational and mediocre for real PvP but if You would want to slot dark conversion than You would have to drop some other ability like hurricane and wear chudan which would make Your max stats less appealing to Your arguments which actually shows how unreliable and full of context supporting someone's argument some screenshots can be.

It's really strong words to talk about burden of proof for a person that didn't prove much of what he/she was claiming. Fact that You think Your screenshots proved anything doesn't mean they did. For example You linked superstar for magsorc build and You think with that You proved something. To actually prove it You would've to show some videos with extensive succeses with said build like some 1vX that other classes couldn't perform etc. I don't blame You for not providing such data because it's an exhausting task that is really not worth the time. The point is, not everything You link is a proof that You think it is.

RomanRex · May 21

Adernath wrote: »

So the changes look good from a statistical point of view. End of story.

Many of us agree with you.

StaticWave · May 21

Galeriano2 wrote: »

For example when static was claiming bound aegis can provide up to 5,5k max magicka I don't need to link any cmx or build page to prove him wrong

This is what I said:

"This allows the Sorc to gain somewhere between 3.5-5.5k max mag depending on how much they already have, and also drop Undo for Dawnbreaker because they no longer need the Minor Protection on Undo"

That top end 5.5k was just a number I pulled out randomly and didn't verify, but you could absolutely cheese it to give 4.2k max mag when slotting Bound Aegis by wearing certain sets and playing in certain areas.

3.5k is also achievable for a normal build, like this:

Without Bound Aegis:

With Bound Aegis:

61657- 57892 = 3765 extra max mag from slotting Bound Aegis

Build is Crafty/Wretched/1x Domi/1x Swarm/DDF and using Crushing Weapon for Major Breach to have Hurricane. CP is also included with 4 dmg CPs because we don't need defensive CP on magsorc.

These are the stats self buffed in CP:

Front bar:

Back bar (just gonna show the resistances):

Tooltips:

Can you tell me a class that has 28.3k HP, 61.6k max mag, 27.2k max stam, 1.7k mag recov, 1.9k stam recov, 30% crit rate, 64% crit dmg, 26k resists back bar and 1.8k crit resist?

How do you expect to kill this sorc unless he messes up? 61k max mag = 16k+ shields and 10-11k burst heal tooltip. 61k max mag + 27k max stam +1.7k mag recov + 1.9k stam recov = infinite sustain, and that's not mentioning Overload sustain. Minor Expedition and Streak with 3 medium to give unmatched mobility.

Please explain to me how you expect to kill this Sorc unless you severely outnumber him? Don't give me the "but he won't do as much damage" bull crap. I can promise you this spec has enough damage for 99% of encounters in PvP except for the very elite players.

What are melee players going to do? You can't gap close him reliably cause he got Streak + movement speed. Even if you do, he got a 16k ward + 11k burst heal underneath

I'm sorry but anybody defending this is literally being biased.

xylena_lazarow · May 21

StaticWave wrote: »

16k ward + 11k burst heal underneath

This is REAL Minmaxing, done by REAL Minmaxers

??????????

They have played us for absolute fools

xylena_lazarow · May 21

StaticWave wrote: »

[snip]

It was refreshing to see good faith engagement. The posts that are just "your argument is flawed, trust me bro I'm a Real MagSorc" without actually engaging on whether Ward is op or not are what is dragging this on.

It would otherwise just be the occasional post of CMX data, builds, or videos.

[edited to remove quote]

Galeriano2 · May 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

Any cmx data or build editor screenshot to prove that?

Burden of proof is on Your side...

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave · May 21

A NB friend of mine also tried to duel that DK and this is what he has to say:

His HPS:

The DK’s DPS:

You legit need 10k HPS to actually survive the DK build. Even with 7k HPS you’re still gonna get parsed and eventually gas out. Sorc with Ward is the ONLY spec that can casually face tank that kind of damage.