Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's a DK friend of mine that regularly pulls 6k DPS. I tested 2 duels vs him, with 1 duel using Vibrant Shroud and another duel using Hardened Ward. Both duels I was at 37k HP. My DK friend was in Malacath and I was in Rallying Cry, so my crit resist was nullified completely. I also had Malubeth to help with healing thru the DK. None of that should matter though. What matters is the difference between a regular burst heal vs Ward.

Duel with Vibrant Shroud:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Duel with Ward:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Both duels lasted over 2 minutes 30 seconds, but I died in the 1st duel and ran out of the 2nd duel because we stalemated. I did more damage in the 2nd duel and had better sustain, as seen from the stamina and magicka drain/s vs regen/s




All I did was changed out Vibrant Shroud for Ward. Everything else stayed the same. This is what he had to say afterwards:



Also notice how Ward made up 36.9% of my healing, whereas Vibrant Shroud only made up 11%? Blood Magic made up 8.3% of my healing in the 1st duel compared to 5.1% in the 2nd duel, so this will probably change next patch with Blood Magic buff. However, I firmly believe that it's not going to improve the fight dramatically compared to just slotting Ward.

Can you think of a build that tanks 7.3k DPS while also dealing 3.5k dps back?

Out of curiosity, is there some way in combat metrics to separate damage taken by ward and how much ward reduced that incoming damage by, before applying it to the ward (and subsequently recording that value in CMX), compared to how much that same damage is reduced when block casting shroud (I'm assuming that you were block casting shroud in that test)?

Genuinely curious here, because while I agree with you that ward (as a burst heal) is too strong in it's current form, I am yet to see the data behind just how much the incoming damage is being reduced by when it is applied to ward (and that number being subsequently recorded in CMX), compared to how much it is reduced by when it is applied to block healing (and that number being subsequently recorded in CMX). We all know that mechanically ward mitigates significantly less damage than blocking does, so I am curious to see just what effect this is having on the CMX being presented.

If the DK hasn't changed anything in his setup between those 2 duels, then I can only assume that ward is mitigating less of his damage (before applying and recording it in CMX) than what block casting shroud mitigates (based on your shown values of his DPS), which is partially inflating his DPS when you use ward, compared to using shroud.

Also curious, what would his DPS be, with you not blocking, just healing, would that have the damage taken when healing with shroud be closer to the 7.4k DPS shown on ward or would it still be significantly different?

P.s. I am asking because I want to have an accurate understanding of all of the data being presented, I'm not trying to decry the data, just genuinely curious.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

1) Some small adjustments to the numbers (HoTs are generally 25-30% stronger than burst heals for total healing done to account for the duration for it to complete that total heal amount) and duration increased to 6 seconds (and the HoT lasts the full duration, regardless if the ward lasts or not). The HoT being active cannot be tied to the shield being active since the shield often dies within 1-2 GCD already anyway, especially when in execute range.

That's a fair suggestion. I think that could be very interesting to help Sorc.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

2) This would be interesting, but the healing morph of wield soul already does this exact thing while also providing better alternative named buffs, so I don't really see this happening, or even being used tbh when the current healing morph of wield soul exists (sorc would just continue to run crushing/dizzy as the spammable in this case).

One benefit of this change is you won't have to sacrifice Wield Soul and can use it as a spamamble. Casting Dark Conversion should also proc Blood Magic's passive to give a decent amount equivalent to other single target burst heals. But yea with Scribing system I doubt this will be implemented.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

3) Imo, leave crit surge as is, many sorcs like it, but just want it to be more reliable. So just give sorc in class access to major prophecy/savagery in some way to help it proc more frequently.
I would, however, rework the other morph (power surge) to be an actual standard HoT that has a chance to proc a small AoE heal around the caster when it crit heals with a 2s cooldown instead of it's current "proc heal when crit healing" with a wonky 3s cooldown (that essentially means it has a 4s cooldown thanks to HoT tick rates being 2s).

Tbh, I find Crit Surge to be pretty decent right now as well, so it may not be needed to change it to proc 100% of the time. Power Surge definitely needs to be reworked 100%.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

4) I want to test this change out more too, specifically on live, to see how much of a difference this makes, especially with vibrant shroud. But it definitely is promising, at least in theory.

It's going to be a decent defensive buff, especially for magsorc. Even for stamsorc it's going to be decent as I can block cast Crystal Weapon and still get a heal, whereas on the live server I have to drop block to land the light attack and risk dying.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

5) This is something that should have been done for magsorc specifically a long time ago when movement speed was made much more readily available to the other classes via RaT, etc. to bring its baseline speed up closer to stamsorc. Also they need to revert the mechanical nerfs done to lightning form (tick rate and base radius) so it's actually worth slotting (especially the mag morph) over chudan.

This should have been the main fix for Sorc tbh. Back when movement speed was hard to stack, I could reliably use my speed advantage to mitigate damage. Now everyone is just as fast as I am and it's almost impossible sometimes to escape despite having near maximum speed + Streak. I have to Streak onto higher ground or over ledges now to have a chance at escaping.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Note on 1: I still want to see what effect replacing the max stats on bound armor (and morphs) with major prophecy/savagery would have on sorc/ward. For sure it will reduce the peak of mag stacking since the cap would be 55k (not 60k+) and the damage builds shown above would sit much closer to 40k mag instead of 50k putting their ward sizes closer to 11-12k (on the damage build) and 13-14k (on the mag stacking build) since that change is an 8-15% drop to max magicka.

Either Major Prophecy/Savagery or extra crit chance when slotted.

IncultaWolf

I've been having fun abusing this ability in battlegrounds this patch. I hope they adjust/nerf it though, because sorcerer healing is getting buffed AGAIN with this next chapter release.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's a DK friend of mine that regularly pulls 6k DPS. I tested 2 duels vs him, with 1 duel using Vibrant Shroud and another duel using Hardened Ward. Both duels I was at 37k HP. My DK friend was in Malacath and I was in Rallying Cry, so my crit resist was nullified completely. I also had Malubeth to help with healing thru the DK. None of that should matter though. What matters is the difference between a regular burst heal vs Ward.

Duel with Vibrant Shroud:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Duel with Ward:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Both duels lasted over 2 minutes 30 seconds, but I died in the 1st duel and ran out of the 2nd duel because we stalemated. I did more damage in the 2nd duel and had better sustain, as seen from the stamina and magicka drain/s vs regen/s




All I did was changed out Vibrant Shroud for Ward. Everything else stayed the same. This is what he had to say afterwards:



Also notice how Ward made up 36.9% of my healing, whereas Vibrant Shroud only made up 11%? Blood Magic made up 8.3% of my healing in the 1st duel compared to 5.1% in the 2nd duel, so this will probably change next patch with Blood Magic buff. However, I firmly believe that it's not going to improve the fight dramatically compared to just slotting Ward.

Can you think of a build that tanks 7.3k DPS while also dealing 3.5k dps back?

Out of curiosity, is there some way in combat metrics to separate damage taken by ward and how much ward reduced that incoming damage by, before applying it to the ward (and subsequently recording that value in CMX), compared to how much that same damage is reduced when block casting shroud (I'm assuming that you were block casting shroud in that test)?

Genuinely curious here, because while I agree with you that ward (as a burst heal) is too strong in it's current form, I am yet to see the data behind just how much the incoming damage is being reduced by when it is applied to ward (and that number being subsequently recorded in CMX), compared to how much it is reduced by when it is applied to block healing (and that number being subsequently recorded in CMX). We all know that mechanically ward mitigates significantly less damage than blocking does, so I am curious to see just what effect this is having on the CMX being presented.

If the DK hasn't changed anything in his setup between those 2 duels, then I can only assume that ward is mitigating less of his damage (before applying and recording it in CMX) than what block casting shroud mitigates (based on your shown values of his DPS), which is partially inflating his DPS when you use ward, compared to using shroud.

Also curious, what would his DPS be, with you not blocking, just healing, would that have the damage taken when healing with shroud be closer to the 7.4k DPS shown on ward or would it still be significantly different?

P.s. I am asking because I want to have an accurate understanding of all of the data being presented, I'm not trying to decry the data, just genuinely curious.

I'll have to look into that more. Before I switched to Ward, I did 7 duels with Vibrant Shroud and every single duel was super hard on my part. Sustain felt really bad from block-casting the burst heal, and I often died from running out of sustain. I swapped to Ward and felt much better in terms of sustain and that translated to doing more DPS to the DK.

I'll have to test again next patch with buffed Blood Magic though. Also, 1 thing I wanted to test is using Malubeth with 45k max mag. I reckon the shield is going to be pretty strong with Major Vitality on top.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's a DK friend of mine that regularly pulls 6k DPS. I tested 2 duels vs him, with 1 duel using Vibrant Shroud and another duel using Hardened Ward. Both duels I was at 37k HP. My DK friend was in Malacath and I was in Rallying Cry, so my crit resist was nullified completely. I also had Malubeth to help with healing thru the DK. None of that should matter though. What matters is the difference between a regular burst heal vs Ward.

Duel with Vibrant Shroud:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Duel with Ward:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Both duels lasted over 2 minutes 30 seconds, but I died in the 1st duel and ran out of the 2nd duel because we stalemated. I did more damage in the 2nd duel and had better sustain, as seen from the stamina and magicka drain/s vs regen/s




All I did was changed out Vibrant Shroud for Ward. Everything else stayed the same. This is what he had to say afterwards:



Also notice how Ward made up 36.9% of my healing, whereas Vibrant Shroud only made up 11%? Blood Magic made up 8.3% of my healing in the 1st duel compared to 5.1% in the 2nd duel, so this will probably change next patch with Blood Magic buff. However, I firmly believe that it's not going to improve the fight dramatically compared to just slotting Ward.

Can you think of a build that tanks 7.3k DPS while also dealing 3.5k dps back?

Out of curiosity, is there some way in combat metrics to separate damage taken by ward and how much ward reduced that incoming damage by, before applying it to the ward (and subsequently recording that value in CMX), compared to how much that same damage is reduced when block casting shroud (I'm assuming that you were block casting shroud in that test)?

Genuinely curious here, because while I agree with you that ward (as a burst heal) is too strong in it's current form, I am yet to see the data behind just how much the incoming damage is being reduced by when it is applied to ward (and that number being subsequently recorded in CMX), compared to how much it is reduced by when it is applied to block healing (and that number being subsequently recorded in CMX). We all know that mechanically ward mitigates significantly less damage than blocking does, so I am curious to see just what effect this is having on the CMX being presented.

If the DK hasn't changed anything in his setup between those 2 duels, then I can only assume that ward is mitigating less of his damage (before applying and recording it in CMX) than what block casting shroud mitigates (based on your shown values of his DPS), which is partially inflating his DPS when you use ward, compared to using shroud.

Also curious, what would his DPS be, with you not blocking, just healing, would that have the damage taken when healing with shroud be closer to the 7.4k DPS shown on ward or would it still be significantly different?

P.s. I am asking because I want to have an accurate understanding of all of the data being presented, I'm not trying to decry the data, just genuinely curious.

I'll have to look into that more. Before I switched to Ward, I did 7 duels with Vibrant Shroud and every single duel was super hard on my part. Sustain felt really bad from block-casting the burst heal, and I often died from running out of sustain. I swapped to Ward and felt much better in terms of sustain and that translated to doing more DPS to the DK.

I'll have to test again next patch with buffed Blood Magic though. Also, 1 thing I wanted to test is using Malubeth with 45k max mag. I reckon the shield is going to be pretty strong with Major Vitality on top.

Awesome, lmk what you find.

Yeah, that's what I found with VS as well. It costs 10% more than ward (and other class's burst heals) at base (before vamp cost increase), so it's definitely draining on sustain compared to ward.

It's to be expected though since it is technically an AoE heal. Will be interesting to test it properly next patch with the blood magic change though, see if that makes the difference on sustain or not.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's a DK friend of mine that regularly pulls 6k DPS. I tested 2 duels vs him, with 1 duel using Vibrant Shroud and another duel using Hardened Ward. Both duels I was at 37k HP. My DK friend was in Malacath and I was in Rallying Cry, so my crit resist was nullified completely. I also had Malubeth to help with healing thru the DK. None of that should matter though. What matters is the difference between a regular burst heal vs Ward.

Duel with Vibrant Shroud:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Duel with Ward:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Both duels lasted over 2 minutes 30 seconds, but I died in the 1st duel and ran out of the 2nd duel because we stalemated. I did more damage in the 2nd duel and had better sustain, as seen from the stamina and magicka drain/s vs regen/s




All I did was changed out Vibrant Shroud for Ward. Everything else stayed the same. This is what he had to say afterwards:



Also notice how Ward made up 36.9% of my healing, whereas Vibrant Shroud only made up 11%? Blood Magic made up 8.3% of my healing in the 1st duel compared to 5.1% in the 2nd duel, so this will probably change next patch with Blood Magic buff. However, I firmly believe that it's not going to improve the fight dramatically compared to just slotting Ward.

Can you think of a build that tanks 7.3k DPS while also dealing 3.5k dps back?

So what You proved is that single target self applied shield with minor version of burst heal as secondary effect and restrictions applied to its scaling is better source of self survival than AoE group heal with major maim and minor vitality as secondary effects. This is obvious result and excatly as it should be. You expected any other result? Do You expect for ritual of rebirth on templar to be stronger self defense than honor the dead? Do You expect fungal growth on warden to be better source of self defense than Arctic Wind? Do You expect for obsidian shard or cauterize to be better selfhealing tool than coag or for coag to be weaker than other single target spammable burst heals while coag is not a cross heal? If not than I don't know why did You expect for hardened ward to be comparable or weaker than vibrant shroud. I really don't know what did You expect to prove.

As for Your question can any other setup survive that particular duel while producing 3,5k DPS than yes there are other classes capable to do so if You give them the same enviroment as You had which is fighting a DoT pressure DK that stays in a meele range for a whole duel. You can slap Rallying Cry+Malubeth on almost every class then add other sets of choice that will fit the nature of specific class and You have a setup that will survive that duel while producing desired dmg. Keep in mind that while You had a vibrant shround You were capable to survive 6,3k incoming DPS for 2,5 minute while producing 3,1k DPS so You were not that far away from numbers produced in second duel especially considering that in 1st duell that DK had major maim applied. If You were able to do it on a sorc which isn't the toughest brawler class and with a mediocre size burst heal that vibrant shroud is compared to other class's burst heals than why do You have any doubts other classes with better brawler tools and stronger burst heals wouldn't be able to perform better?

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

You missed the point entirely. Not the first time tbh. Also I asked You not that long ago to stop making arguments based purely on assumpptions that fit Your agenda yet You continue to do so. Be better.

This is an unqualified statement. I have played both Arc and Sorc extensively and provided CMX data from both classes for context. I have broken down the shield mechanics of Hardened vs Impervious over and over. You have asked for context yet provided none of your own, just some vague sentiment that Arc is somehow on the same level as Sorc (it's not), and you continue to ignore the context of Sorc being fully ranged. Arc is not ranged, medium range at best.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Most magsorcs also do no damage

Bad Sorcs tagging you with Curse and Crushing Shock from 41m away still need to be accounted for on the battlefield, while bad Arcs do literally nothing because they need to get up close then land clumsy skills like tentacle (and bad Arcs are still trying to use the beam which you just laugh and step slightly to the side). Even decent Arc players are building the class incorrectly, those YT Arc builds like the one Jsmalls linked don't run nearly enough damage.

Please show me excatly where did I said that arcanist is on the same level as sorc. If You don't understand what someone said than ask for clarification or restrain Yourself from commenting it. If You lack arguments than please don't make up what others said just so You can make response to that make up words.

Yeah setups with 36-41 meters range skills can do damage from 36-41 meters and those without 36-41 meters range skills cannot. I wouldn't have guess than on my own, thanks for rediscovering the wheel for me. I wonder why despite that we don't see whole playerbase running as range setups if meele is at such massive disadventage. It's almost like majority of fights is not happening at full range and meele setups have tools to compensate.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I wonder why despite that we don't see whole playerbase running as range setups if meele is at such massive disadventage. It's almost like majority of fights is not happening at full range and meele setups have tools to compensate.

Why doesn't everyone run in a ball group? It's almost like people play melee because it's fun, and melee absolutely should have tools to compensate for its inherent massive disadvantage (that you do seem to recognize). With u41 and u42 they are removing much of that compensation, obviously the meta isn't going to shift overnight, and as someone else ITT mentioned, the magsorc playstyle is a bit narrow and constraining even if it's now extremely powerful.

On a brief tangent, there's also this extremely backwards design, where the strong dexterous melee fighters keep getting stuck with slow clunky cast times on skills they must carefully aim, while ranged CASTers get instant speed aimbot spammables. The old Crystal Blast (RIP) was how casual ranged skills should work, it was fun for them in overworld PvE, it gave them something better than light attack spam in PvP, and never disrupted competitive play.

TechMaybeHic

I have barely played magsorc. Whats the common denominator for a build to get magicka up hight enough for these values? Certain traits and sets? I should run one and see how I do. Someone want to PM me a starter build?

xylena_lazarow

Something like this, but use frags not wep, and a monster set like Roksa or Chudan over the extra 3k max mag. You can trade Ward size and do more damage by trading Alfiq for something like Orders or Shattered.

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Something like this, but use frags not wep, and a monster set like Roksa or Chudan over the extra 3k max mag. You can trade Ward size and do more damage by trading Alfiq for something like Orders or Shattered.

Thank you

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Thank you

You're welcome! Tune as you like, I find the playstyle a bit narrow but there's still a lot of set and bar options. Back bar Wretched Vitality is a popular alternative to Rallying (which needs to be force procced on a setup like this). Chudan lets you drop Hurricane for pretty much whatever you want. Shattering Spines, either morph of Dark Exchange depending on what you need, Structured Entropy, some of my favorites. You can use other ults or other ranged spammables.

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Thank you

You're welcome! Tune as you like, I find the playstyle a bit narrow but there's still a lot of set and bar options. Back bar Wretched Vitality is a popular alternative to Rallying (which needs to be force procced on a setup like this). Chudan lets you drop Hurricane for pretty much whatever you want. Shattering Spines, either morph of Dark Exchange depending on what you need, Structured Entropy, some of my favorites. You can use other ults or other ranged spammables.

I usually like wretched but leaning rallying cry ir otherwise crit resistance for lack of impen, but maybe I'm overvaluing 800 or so crit resistance

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's a DK friend of mine that regularly pulls 6k DPS. I tested 2 duels vs him, with 1 duel using Vibrant Shroud and another duel using Hardened Ward. Both duels I was at 37k HP. My DK friend was in Malacath and I was in Rallying Cry, so my crit resist was nullified completely. I also had Malubeth to help with healing thru the DK. None of that should matter though. What matters is the difference between a regular burst heal vs Ward.

Duel with Vibrant Shroud:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Duel with Ward:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Both duels lasted over 2 minutes 30 seconds, but I died in the 1st duel and ran out of the 2nd duel because we stalemated. I did more damage in the 2nd duel and had better sustain, as seen from the stamina and magicka drain/s vs regen/s




All I did was changed out Vibrant Shroud for Ward. Everything else stayed the same. This is what he had to say afterwards:



Also notice how Ward made up 36.9% of my healing, whereas Vibrant Shroud only made up 11%? Blood Magic made up 8.3% of my healing in the 1st duel compared to 5.1% in the 2nd duel, so this will probably change next patch with Blood Magic buff. However, I firmly believe that it's not going to improve the fight dramatically compared to just slotting Ward.

Can you think of a build that tanks 7.3k DPS while also dealing 3.5k dps back?

So what You proved is that single target self applied shield with minor version of burst heal as secondary effect and restrictions applied to its scaling is better source of self survival than AoE group heal with major maim and minor vitality as secondary effects. This is obvious result and excatly as it should be. You expected any other result? Do You expect for ritual of rebirth on templar to be stronger self defense than honor the dead? Do You expect fungal growth on warden to be better source of self defense than Arctic Wind? Do You expect for obsidian shard or cauterize to be better selfhealing tool than coag or for coag to be weaker than other single target spammable burst heals while coag is not a cross heal? If not than I don't know why did You expect for hardened ward to be comparable or weaker than vibrant shroud. I really don't know what did You expect to prove.

As for Your question can any other setup survive that particular duel while producing 3,5k DPS than yes there are other classes capable to do so if You give them the same enviroment as You had which is fighting a DoT pressure DK that stays in a meele range for a whole duel. You can slap Rallying Cry+Malubeth on almost every class then add other sets of choice that will fit the nature of specific class and You have a setup that will survive that duel while producing desired dmg. Keep in mind that while You had a vibrant shround You were capable to survive 6,3k incoming DPS for 2,5 minute while producing 3,1k DPS so You were not that far away from numbers produced in second duel especially considering that in 1st duell that DK had major maim applied. If You were able to do it on a sorc which isn't the toughest brawler class and with a mediocre size burst heal that vibrant shroud is compared to other class's burst heals than why do You have any doubts other classes with better brawler tools and stronger burst heals wouldn't be able to perform better?

Go duel the same DK and let me know how it works out. I don’t feel like explaining to you

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Something like this, but use frags not wep, and a monster set like Roksa or Chudan over the extra 3k max mag. You can trade Ward size and do more damage by trading Alfiq for something like Orders or Shattered.

And that’s also on an Orc 🤣🤣 so balanced

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's a DK friend of mine that regularly pulls 6k DPS. I tested 2 duels vs him, with 1 duel using Vibrant Shroud and another duel using Hardened Ward. Both duels I was at 37k HP. My DK friend was in Malacath and I was in Rallying Cry, so my crit resist was nullified completely. I also had Malubeth to help with healing thru the DK. None of that should matter though. What matters is the difference between a regular burst heal vs Ward.

Duel with Vibrant Shroud:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Duel with Ward:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Both duels lasted over 2 minutes 30 seconds, but I died in the 1st duel and ran out of the 2nd duel because we stalemated. I did more damage in the 2nd duel and had better sustain, as seen from the stamina and magicka drain/s vs regen/s




All I did was changed out Vibrant Shroud for Ward. Everything else stayed the same. This is what he had to say afterwards:



Also notice how Ward made up 36.9% of my healing, whereas Vibrant Shroud only made up 11%? Blood Magic made up 8.3% of my healing in the 1st duel compared to 5.1% in the 2nd duel, so this will probably change next patch with Blood Magic buff. However, I firmly believe that it's not going to improve the fight dramatically compared to just slotting Ward.

Can you think of a build that tanks 7.3k DPS while also dealing 3.5k dps back?

So what You proved is that single target self applied shield with minor version of burst heal as secondary effect and restrictions applied to its scaling is better source of self survival than AoE group heal with major maim and minor vitality as secondary effects. This is obvious result and excatly as it should be. You expected any other result? Do You expect for ritual of rebirth on templar to be stronger self defense than honor the dead? Do You expect fungal growth on warden to be better source of self defense than Arctic Wind? Do You expect for obsidian shard or cauterize to be better selfhealing tool than coag or for coag to be weaker than other single target spammable burst heals while coag is not a cross heal? If not than I don't know why did You expect for hardened ward to be comparable or weaker than vibrant shroud. I really don't know what did You expect to prove.

As for Your question can any other setup survive that particular duel while producing 3,5k DPS than yes there are other classes capable to do so if You give them the same enviroment as You had which is fighting a DoT pressure DK that stays in a meele range for a whole duel. You can slap Rallying Cry+Malubeth on almost every class then add other sets of choice that will fit the nature of specific class and You have a setup that will survive that duel while producing desired dmg. Keep in mind that while You had a vibrant shround You were capable to survive 6,3k incoming DPS for 2,5 minute while producing 3,1k DPS so You were not that far away from numbers produced in second duel especially considering that in 1st duell that DK had major maim applied. If You were able to do it on a sorc which isn't the toughest brawler class and with a mediocre size burst heal that vibrant shroud is compared to other class's burst heals than why do You have any doubts other classes with better brawler tools and stronger burst heals wouldn't be able to perform better?

Go duel the same DK and let me know how it works out. I don’t feel like explaining to you

For someone who's comments explaining his point of view take up majority of that 35 pages long thread it's almost not like You to not want to explain something. Also I was duelling DKs like that 1 or 2 patches ago on classes other than sorc and stalemating against them while doing some medium sized dmg is really not that hard if all sets are allowed.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's a DK friend of mine that regularly pulls 6k DPS. I tested 2 duels vs him, with 1 duel using Vibrant Shroud and another duel using Hardened Ward. Both duels I was at 37k HP. My DK friend was in Malacath and I was in Rallying Cry, so my crit resist was nullified completely. I also had Malubeth to help with healing thru the DK. None of that should matter though. What matters is the difference between a regular burst heal vs Ward.

Duel with Vibrant Shroud:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Duel with Ward:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Both duels lasted over 2 minutes 30 seconds, but I died in the 1st duel and ran out of the 2nd duel because we stalemated. I did more damage in the 2nd duel and had better sustain, as seen from the stamina and magicka drain/s vs regen/s




All I did was changed out Vibrant Shroud for Ward. Everything else stayed the same. This is what he had to say afterwards:



Also notice how Ward made up 36.9% of my healing, whereas Vibrant Shroud only made up 11%? Blood Magic made up 8.3% of my healing in the 1st duel compared to 5.1% in the 2nd duel, so this will probably change next patch with Blood Magic buff. However, I firmly believe that it's not going to improve the fight dramatically compared to just slotting Ward.

Can you think of a build that tanks 7.3k DPS while also dealing 3.5k dps back?

So what You proved is that single target self applied shield with minor version of burst heal as secondary effect and restrictions applied to its scaling is better source of self survival than AoE group heal with major maim and minor vitality as secondary effects. This is obvious result and excatly as it should be. You expected any other result? Do You expect for ritual of rebirth on templar to be stronger self defense than honor the dead? Do You expect fungal growth on warden to be better source of self defense than Arctic Wind? Do You expect for obsidian shard or cauterize to be better selfhealing tool than coag or for coag to be weaker than other single target spammable burst heals while coag is not a cross heal? If not than I don't know why did You expect for hardened ward to be comparable or weaker than vibrant shroud. I really don't know what did You expect to prove.

As for Your question can any other setup survive that particular duel while producing 3,5k DPS than yes there are other classes capable to do so if You give them the same enviroment as You had which is fighting a DoT pressure DK that stays in a meele range for a whole duel. You can slap Rallying Cry+Malubeth on almost every class then add other sets of choice that will fit the nature of specific class and You have a setup that will survive that duel while producing desired dmg. Keep in mind that while You had a vibrant shround You were capable to survive 6,3k incoming DPS for 2,5 minute while producing 3,1k DPS so You were not that far away from numbers produced in second duel especially considering that in 1st duell that DK had major maim applied. If You were able to do it on a sorc which isn't the toughest brawler class and with a mediocre size burst heal that vibrant shroud is compared to other class's burst heals than why do You have any doubts other classes with better brawler tools and stronger burst heals wouldn't be able to perform better?

Go duel the same DK and let me know how it works out. I don’t feel like explaining to you

For someone who's comments explaining his point of view take up majority of that 35 pages long thread it's almost not like You to not want to explain something. Also I was duelling DKs like that 1 or 2 patches ago on classes other than sorc and stalemating against them while doing some medium sized dmg is really not that hard if all sets are allowed.

Cause I don’t feel like having to explain to you lol. It’s not even worth the time to type it out. Go duel a DK that does 6k DPS on another class, and also do 3.5k DPS back to that DK over 2-3 minutes. I’ll wait for the CMX data.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

I’ll wait for the CMX data.

I'm afraid most we're debating with don't understand PvP dps values and can't meaningfully parse CMX data. The layperson overestimates their skill in a field, demands hard numbers thinking they'll be proven correct, then can't understand the real field data they're presented with (as expected of an untrained layperson). Dunning-Kruger Effect in action.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's a DK friend of mine that regularly pulls 6k DPS. I tested 2 duels vs him, with 1 duel using Vibrant Shroud and another duel using Hardened Ward. Both duels I was at 37k HP. My DK friend was in Malacath and I was in Rallying Cry, so my crit resist was nullified completely. I also had Malubeth to help with healing thru the DK. None of that should matter though. What matters is the difference between a regular burst heal vs Ward.

Duel with Vibrant Shroud:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Duel with Ward:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Both duels lasted over 2 minutes 30 seconds, but I died in the 1st duel and ran out of the 2nd duel because we stalemated. I did more damage in the 2nd duel and had better sustain, as seen from the stamina and magicka drain/s vs regen/s




All I did was changed out Vibrant Shroud for Ward. Everything else stayed the same. This is what he had to say afterwards:



Also notice how Ward made up 36.9% of my healing, whereas Vibrant Shroud only made up 11%? Blood Magic made up 8.3% of my healing in the 1st duel compared to 5.1% in the 2nd duel, so this will probably change next patch with Blood Magic buff. However, I firmly believe that it's not going to improve the fight dramatically compared to just slotting Ward.

Can you think of a build that tanks 7.3k DPS while also dealing 3.5k dps back?

So what You proved is that single target self applied shield with minor version of burst heal as secondary effect and restrictions applied to its scaling is better source of self survival than AoE group heal with major maim and minor vitality as secondary effects. This is obvious result and excatly as it should be. You expected any other result? Do You expect for ritual of rebirth on templar to be stronger self defense than honor the dead? Do You expect fungal growth on warden to be better source of self defense than Arctic Wind? Do You expect for obsidian shard or cauterize to be better selfhealing tool than coag or for coag to be weaker than other single target spammable burst heals while coag is not a cross heal? If not than I don't know why did You expect for hardened ward to be comparable or weaker than vibrant shroud. I really don't know what did You expect to prove.

As for Your question can any other setup survive that particular duel while producing 3,5k DPS than yes there are other classes capable to do so if You give them the same enviroment as You had which is fighting a DoT pressure DK that stays in a meele range for a whole duel. You can slap Rallying Cry+Malubeth on almost every class then add other sets of choice that will fit the nature of specific class and You have a setup that will survive that duel while producing desired dmg. Keep in mind that while You had a vibrant shround You were capable to survive 6,3k incoming DPS for 2,5 minute while producing 3,1k DPS so You were not that far away from numbers produced in second duel especially considering that in 1st duell that DK had major maim applied. If You were able to do it on a sorc which isn't the toughest brawler class and with a mediocre size burst heal that vibrant shroud is compared to other class's burst heals than why do You have any doubts other classes with better brawler tools and stronger burst heals wouldn't be able to perform better?

Go duel the same DK and let me know how it works out. I don’t feel like explaining to you

For someone who's comments explaining his point of view take up majority of that 35 pages long thread it's almost not like You to not want to explain something. Also I was duelling DKs like that 1 or 2 patches ago on classes other than sorc and stalemating against them while doing some medium sized dmg is really not that hard if all sets are allowed.

Cause I don’t feel like having to explain to you lol. It’s not even worth the time to type it out. Go duel a DK that does 6k DPS on another class, and also do 3.5k DPS back to that DK over 2-3 minutes. I’ll wait for the CMX data.

Why won't You do it? You have a DK friend already set up so it's a perfect opportunity for controled enviroment since You will be able to fight against the same setup used by the same player.

I would atleast want to know what do You think is so specific about sorc that other classes don't have outside of shield that You were able to withstand that DK for 2,5 minute while producing 3,1k DPS even without shield? Is non shield sorc so extremly more tanky than other classes can be that they wouldn't be able to repeat what You did in that 1st duel?

You've spend hours upon hours commenting in this thread throughout last months sometines posting completly unrelated stuff and now suddenly it's not worth Your time explaining something?

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I’ll wait for the CMX data.

I'm afraid most we're debating with don't understand PvP dps values and can't meaningfully parse CMX data. The layperson overestimates their skill in a field, demands hard numbers thinking they'll be proven correct, then can't understand the real field data they're presented with (as expected of an untrained layperson). Dunning-Kruger Effect in action.

I have a strange feeling if I would ask You irl what the actuall Dunning and Kruger studies assesed and how many were them You wouldn't know without googling it which actually is the Dunning Kruger effect in its purest form.

What You're portrtaying to be a Dunning Kruger effect in reality does not work excatly the way You presented it. I would reccomend You to read paper I linked first and then start talking about Dunning Kruger effect presence because for now there is a bit of irony in Your comment https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David-Dunning-2/publication/12688660_Unskilled_and_Unaware_of_It_How_Difficulties_in_Recognizing_One's_Own_Incompetence_Lead_to_Inflated_Self-Assessments/links/55ef043008aedecb68fd8f4e/Unskilled-and-Unaware-of-It-How-Difficulties-in-Recognizing-Ones-Own-Incompetence-Lead-to-Inflated-Self-Assessments.pdf

VinnyGambini

I don't get all this argument.

Personally I play a templar. By standing inside rune, ritual, using vigor every 5s, puryfying light, and sometimes honor of the dead, I have really hard time reaching more than 5k HPS during duels. Doing 4s hps is quite esily reachable, but going 5k is kinda hard, and going over 5k is close to impossible in the longer run.

AFAIK templar is supposed to be one of the best healer classes (if not the best), but yet sorcerer reaches 8k HPS which is 60% higher.

I seriusly cannot understand how ppl deny fact that sorcerer has currently over 50% more self healing than other classes, while also being the most mobile class, and also having AMAZING RANGED DMG.

Sorcerer is currently strongest PvP class and desperately needs nerf - this is a fact, not an opinion.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I have a strange feeling if I would ask You irl what the actuall Dunning and Kruger studies assesed and how many were them You wouldn't know without googling it which actually is the Dunning Kruger effect in its purest form.

I'm well aware it doesn't refer to "intelligence" but rather expertise in a specific field, such as a video game.

xylena_lazarow

VinnyGambini wrote: »

AFAIK templar is supposed to be one of the best healer classes (if not the best), but yet sorcerer reaches 8k HPS which is 60% higher. I seriusly cannot understand how ppl deny fact that sorcerer has currently over 50% more self healing than other classes, while also being the most mobile class, and also having AMAZING RANGED DMG.

And they're doing it with one spammable skill which the Sorc apologists also try to justify. The logic doesn't seem to go beyond "other classes get overpowered healing, mine should too, it's my turn to be the op class."

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Why won't You do it? You have a DK friend already set up so it's a perfect opportunity for controled enviroment since You will be able to fight against the same setup used by the same player.

I would atleast want to know what do You think is so specific about sorc that other classes don't have outside of shield that You were able to withstand that DK for 2,5 minute while producing 3,1k DPS even without shield? Is non shield sorc so extremly more tanky than other classes can be that they wouldn't be able to repeat what You did in that 1st duel?

You've spend hours upon hours commenting in this thread throughout last months sometines posting completly unrelated stuff and now suddenly it's not worth Your time explaining something?

Which I already did.

1st test with burst heal: 6.4k HPS, 1.9k stam drain per second, 1.2k mag drain per second, 3.1k DPS done

2nd test with Ward: 7.3k HPS, 1.6k stam drain per scond, 1.1k mag drain per scond, 3.5k DPS done

By slotting Ward, I drained less stam and mag per second (translating to better sustain), has a higher HPS (translating to better survivability), and did more DPS. There is no need to do another test lol. Even if I slotted a better burst heal, which I don't have on the class right now, I will still not reach the same survivability and sustain.

I also died in the 1st test, whereas I stalemated in the 2nd test (but I got him low to 20% HP several times). Did you intentionally skip that part? Did you also skip the part where I said I did 7 duels before that with a burst heal and had a hard time until I slotted Ward?

Like I said, it's pointless explaining to you because you're probably going to dismiss it. So I suggest you go and do the test yourself. Fight a DK that can do 6k DPS, then test Ward vs no Ward. I'm 100% confident you're going to find Ward a lot easier to survive and just flat-out better in every way.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I’ll wait for the CMX data.

I'm afraid most we're debating with don't understand PvP dps values and can't meaningfully parse CMX data. The layperson overestimates their skill in a field, demands hard numbers thinking they'll be proven correct, then can't understand the real field data they're presented with (as expected of an untrained layperson). Dunning-Kruger Effect in action.

I can't really explain to them how 7k DPS is like unless they actually try surviving it for themselves lol. I doubt most of them can even survive 5k DPS, let alone 7k. Anybody who understands CMX values will understand why a Sorc surviving 7k DPS is stupid. For a class that's known to have weak heals, to suddenly be tankier than a freaking Templar is laughably broken.

You'd expect people to be rational and either acknowledge it's broken, or at least make an attempt to have its mobility reduced. I'm 100% confident if Templar/DK suddenly got a built-in Streak ppl are going to freak out and dump on the changes, but somehow Sorc gets a free pass lol

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I have a strange feeling if I would ask You irl what the actuall Dunning and Kruger studies assesed and how many were them You wouldn't know without googling it which actually is the Dunning Kruger effect in its purest form.

I'm well aware it doesn't refer to "intelligence" but rather expertise in a specific field, such as a video game.

Ok so I was right to expect You don't know what the actuall Dunning and Kruger studies assesed and how many were them. Kinda ironic on Your side.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Ok so I was right to expect You don't know what the actuall Dunning and Kruger studies assesed and how many were them. Kinda ironic on Your side.

No, the original Dunning-Kruger studies did not assess ESO PvP skill. Can we get back on topic? You take your own argument very seriously yet provide no evidence, no CMX, no builds, only rhetoric. There's not really any point engaging with you further until you provide some of your own data in response to the data provided by myself and Static.

StaticWave wrote: »

I can't really explain to them how 7k DPS is like unless they actually try surviving it for themselves lol. I doubt most of them can even survive 5k DPS, let alone 7k.

Oh unless they're deliberately building tanky, they definitely don't survive 5k dps, that's what I kill consistently with on open world DD Arc. Would love to see what PvP dps these Ward apologists are pulling.

DUTCH_REAPER

I would like to say that all healing in pvp is too much. Not just a specific class but all of the heals. The stacking heals, the burst heals, and the proc heals.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Why won't You do it? You have a DK friend already set up so it's a perfect opportunity for controled enviroment since You will be able to fight against the same setup used by the same player.

I would atleast want to know what do You think is so specific about sorc that other classes don't have outside of shield that You were able to withstand that DK for 2,5 minute while producing 3,1k DPS even without shield? Is non shield sorc so extremly more tanky than other classes can be that they wouldn't be able to repeat what You did in that 1st duel?

You've spend hours upon hours commenting in this thread throughout last months sometines posting completly unrelated stuff and now suddenly it's not worth Your time explaining something?

Which I already did.

1st test with burst heal: 6.4k HPS, 1.9k stam drain per second, 1.2k mag drain per second, 3.1k DPS done

2nd test with Ward: 7.3k HPS, 1.6k stam drain per scond, 1.1k mag drain per scond, 3.5k DPS done

By slotting Ward, I drained less stam and mag per second (translating to better sustain), has a higher HPS (translating to better survivability), and did more DPS. There is no need to do another test lol. Even if I slotted a better burst heal, which I don't have on the class right now, I will still not reach the same survivability and sustain.

I also died in the 1st test, whereas I stalemated in the 2nd test (but I got him low to 20% HP several times). Did you intentionally skip that part? Did you also skip the part where I said I did 7 duels before that with a burst heal and had a hard time until I slotted Ward?

Like I said, it's pointless explaining to you because you're probably going to dismiss it. So I suggest you go and do the test yourself. Fight a DK that can do 6k DPS, then test Ward vs no Ward. I'm 100% confident you're going to find Ward a lot easier to survive and just flat-out better in every way.

Umm Your answer completly misses the subject of my question. I said that You have a perfect enviroment to test other classes because You can test them against the same player that Your sorc was facing.

Of course You will be having better HPS with ward than with void because Your max HPS is limited by Your enemy DPS and with void slotted You had major maim applied to enemy and Your were most propably blocking his attacks more often which caused his maximum possible DPS to drop and that also caused Your maximum possible HPS to drop because You can't have cmx HPS in a duel higher than enemy's DPS. This is also why Your fixation about asking "can other classes survive 7,3k DPS" is flawed, because the same DK in the same setup wouldn't do 7,3k DPS to other classes because many of them are better brawlers and have better dmg reduction tools in their class kits plus they would rely more often on block which could drop that particular DK's DPS even down to the areas of under 6k.

No I did not skip the part where You were talking about dying in 1st duel I am fully aware You died in it but still surviving 6,3k DPS for 2,5 minute while producing 3,1k DPS when using medium sized burst heal is still worth to notice. If anyone is intentionally skipping anything I would say it's You because for few comments straight already You are avoiding really hard certain questions I've been asking You and You preffer to respond to loosely related stuff and to only certain parts of my comments that are not even questions I've made which is somewhat an irony.

I asked You do You expect for a AoE group heal+debuff to be better source of self defense in duel than ability designed purely for self defense. Also calling void a burst heal without pointing out it's not the same burst heals like the other abilities considered as such is like slotting a combat prayer on templar instead of Honor the Dead and calling that a burst heal. Sorc's only true burst heals are present in the form of pets. AoE heals are second hand burst heals at best. Like man Your max crit value on void with major+minor mending is 9k which is lower than what regular burst heals are pullihg without these buffs. Your dark deal was healing Your almost the same amount which just goes to show how poor of a burst heal void is.

Because of that I asked You a question why do You expect that classes with better brawling tools and stronger burst heals than sorc would have issues to survive that DK if Your sorc with mediocre burst heal and without shield was still able to survive for 2,5 minute before dying.

RomanRex

JanTanhide wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

Played all weekend. Cyro and BG’s. 100% didn’t see any overturned sorcs.

Between the complaints about necros here and wanting nerfs to other skills in the toolkit (ie, streak), it’s obvious that this is a sour grapes post that just won’t go away.

Only 3-4 people here are repeatedly advocating for the ward change being adjusted. As many are making equally valid of arguments for the opposite. Stop trying to make fetch happen. It’s not going to happen.

I couldn't agree more. And for my two cents this game is NOT just PVP. We PVE'rs like the Hardened Ward change and don't want to lose it. It helps a lot when running high end Veteran PVE content.

PvP is dwindling and reversing this adjustment would damage a long awaited change for those who don’t even play PvP… which is an overwhelming majority of the player base at this point.

This change like other perceived “broken” skills in PvP play a vital role in PvE content and nuking it would damage more of the player base than it would appease.

If you want to change this skill, change the PvP vs PvE imbalances… not the interclass imbalances.