Healing is too strong. Dynamic scaling of healing to fix.

Skoomah · February 16

Healing is arguably one of the strongest components of survivability in the game and a good healer serves as the best force multiplier when it comes to small and large group play. One good healer in a small group of 4 makes a night and day difference against a small group without a healer. In large group play, a well coordinated ball group that cross heals amongst all 12 team members are almost impossible to take down unless they get rolled over by overwhelming numbers.

I would like to propose the devs introduce dynamic healing. Total healing output remains the same but gets divided by the number of people you’re healing.

For example, if the heal is 10,000 hit points. If you only heal yourself, you get the full 10,000 hit points of healing. And if you heal 4 people, then you only heal 2,500 hit points towards each of the 4 people but still totaling 10,000 hit points of healing.

Healers remain powerful but their impact towards the overall outcome contributes to a lesser extent.

ItsNotLiving · February 16

Putting limits on heal stacking is a way to fix so many problems with Cyrodiil in its current state why they don’t limit it to two instances of the same heal is beyond me.

xylena_lazarow · February 16

Lately I've become of the mind that healing, while often obnoxiously overpowered in this PvP, should be left alone, and its counterplay buffed. These forums have talked plenty about buffing Defile. Healing absorption exists but remains an unexplored mechanic. Snake in the Stars is an interesting concept but far too niche and underpowered for its opportunity cost. Jerall is a powerful effect but poorly designed for anything outside dueling or Xv1 target focus.

In Cyro we have tons of useless siege engines. Those ordinary Fire Ballistas that the game funnels new players towards, they don't even so much as tickle in this meta. Lancers are even worse. Oil Catapults could once seriously mess up ball groups, as the snare effect couldn't be so trivially dealt with like it can be now. Ice Trebs, like why are these even in the game? Buffing the useless siege engines could be a great counter to the tank heal meta and the large scale ball meta without nerfing anything.

Dagoth_Rac · February 16

You can't have Trial healers suddenly healing every member of group for 91.67% reduced healing. And having such strikingly different healing functionality in PvP versus PvE is not ZOS' style. Any changes would need to be viable in both PvE and PvP. Even ignoring PvE, in PvP it is a huge nerf to small groups, who will absolutely all need to cross heal each other to have any chance to survive the incoming damage from ball groups.

React · February 16

I don't think a dynamic scaling reduction like that is what's needed. They should address the lowest hanging fruit first and then continue from there; that lowest hanging fruit being HOT stacking.

Same morph hots should be limited to two stacks. So you can have 2 echoing vigors, 2 radiating regens, 2 polar winds, etc on you simultaneously. But you cannot have 3+ echoing vigors or similar.

This change alone would drastically improve the scenarios where healing really is at it's most problematic.

gariondavey · February 16

React wrote: »

I don't think a dynamic scaling reduction like that is what's needed. They should address the lowest hanging fruit first and then continue from there; that lowest hanging fruit being HOT stacking.

Same morph hots should be limited to two stacks. So you can have 2 echoing vigors, 2 radiating regens, 2 polar winds, etc on you simultaneously. But you cannot have 3+ echoing vigors or similar.

This change alone would drastically improve the scenarios where healing really is at it's most problematic.

Bingo

Aldoss · February 17

Limiting hot stacking is 100% worth the investment. We already know that they can remove cross healing (since they did it during the performance tests back in covid). I don't see why rules can't be created that would either limit or override same version hots and refresh them, rather than add to them.

When a ball group all casts echoing at the same time, everyone in the area feels it. There's no way those calculations are just "fine" for the server.

silky_soft · February 17

Remove Combat Medic passive. Change it to something else.

Remove all the cryodiil passive from bg. Having the range and the other bonus inside a 4v4v4 is overpowered.

NuarBlack · February 17

No one wants to hear it but the game was better when group heals had a cast time and therefore counter play. It was actually more enjoyable to heal too. Chosing between the quick expensive heal or having to play smart and predictive with the longer cast. Now healing is brain dead for the pve andy's

NuarBlack · February 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Lately I've become of the mind that healing, while often obnoxiously overpowered in this PvP, should be left alone, and its counterplay buffed. These forums have talked plenty about buffing Defile. Healing absorption exists but remains an unexplored mechanic. Snake in the Stars is an interesting concept but far too niche and underpowered for its opportunity cost. Jerall is a powerful effect but poorly designed for anything outside dueling or Xv1 target focus.

In Cyro we have tons of useless siege engines. Those ordinary Fire Ballistas that the game funnels new players towards, they don't even so much as tickle in this meta. Lancers are even worse. Oil Catapults could once seriously mess up ball groups, as the snare effect couldn't be so trivially dealt with like it can be now. Ice Trebs, like why are these even in the game? Buffing the useless siege engines could be a great counter to the tank heal meta and the large scale ball meta without nerfing anything.

Cyro became complete trash when they nerfed siege weapons into the ground. Orchestrating fighting retreats against superior numbers using siege weapons was the high point of cyro. They were literally the best counter to ball groups and zergs. After they were nerfed cyro had no point. BGs and IC existed at that point for small scale yet the 1vXer and ball groupers whined and got their way cause they didn't really want small scale they wanted a mode where they could use their CP and gear advantage to prey on new players. We used to have multiple campaigns so you can tell how that worked out for encouraging the player base.

Skoomah · February 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Lately I've become of the mind that healing, while often obnoxiously overpowered in this PvP, should be left alone, and its counterplay buffed. These forums have talked plenty about buffing Defile. Healing absorption exists but remains an unexplored mechanic. Snake in the Stars is an interesting concept but far too niche and underpowered for its opportunity cost. Jerall is a powerful effect but poorly designed for anything outside dueling or Xv1 target focus.

In Cyro we have tons of useless siege engines. Those ordinary Fire Ballistas that the game funnels new players towards, they don't even so much as tickle in this meta. Lancers are even worse. Oil Catapults could once seriously mess up ball groups, as the snare effect couldn't be so trivially dealt with like it can be now. Ice Trebs, like why are these even in the game? Buffing the useless siege engines could be a great counter to the tank heal meta and the large scale ball meta without nerfing anything.

That’s another nice suggestion too. I would recommend at least doubling all defile healing reduction debuff effects. That would leave PVE untouched but give PVPers a meaningful counter.

Skoomah · February 17

React wrote: »

I don't think a dynamic scaling reduction like that is what's needed. They should address the lowest hanging fruit first and then continue from there; that lowest hanging fruit being HOT stacking.

Same morph hots should be limited to two stacks. So you can have 2 echoing vigors, 2 radiating regens, 2 polar winds, etc on you simultaneously. But you cannot have 3+ echoing vigors or similar.

This change alone would drastically improve the scenarios where healing really is at it's most problematic.

If you limit to an X number of stacks, as a healer you wouldn’t know if your heal was hitting someone with heals or not and if they’d reach their stack limit. That would make for a frustrating experience. We agree on reducing healing but not on this method of doing it.

Skoomah · February 17

Dekrypted wrote: »

A more holistic answer may be to limit stacking instances of hots to what would be required to complete trials allowing for PvE not to be disrupted while limiting Ball Groups in cyrodiil that are stacking 6 to 8 instances of echoing vigor and or radiating regen.

Healing does need to be addressed in cyrodiil as the longer a fight goes on in a zerg v zerg scenario, it will do nothing but lag out the entire zone as well as cause people to be stuck in combat. Players have to die one way or another.

In my experience, healing is quite boring in PVE. You basically have all dps ball up at a certain location and spam heals in a specific X marks the spot. Even in the hardest veteran trials, that’s all healers do. On easier content people can get sloppy and spread out and the healer sends heals in different directions but really, you’re just adding turning the camera to different spots to your rotation. Reducing healing overall would make all content more challenging and make winning feel even better when the battles end.

Skoomah · February 17

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

You can't have Trial healers suddenly healing every member of group for 91.67% reduced healing. And having such strikingly different healing functionality in PvP versus PvE is not ZOS' style. Any changes would need to be viable in both PvE and PvP. Even ignoring PvE, in PvP it is a huge nerf to small groups, who will absolutely all need to cross heal each other to have any chance to survive the incoming damage from ball groups.

Aren’t trials too easy to clear at the moment? Either healing or dps is too strong, no?

JerBearESO · February 17

Dynamic healing: yes, but through battle spirit.

Why are people still suggesting limiting instances over dynamic healing BTW? One of these things creates other problems, is a logic puzzle, and doesn't actually solve the ball group problem, and the other (dynamic healing) is a perfect solution all around with no drawbacks.

Skoomah · February 17

Dekrypted wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

A more holistic answer may be to limit stacking instances of hots to what would be required to complete trials allowing for PvE not to be disrupted while limiting Ball Groups in cyrodiil that are stacking 6 to 8 instances of echoing vigor and or radiating regen.

Healing does need to be addressed in cyrodiil as the longer a fight goes on in a zerg v zerg scenario, it will do nothing but lag out the entire zone as well as cause people to be stuck in combat. Players have to die one way or another.

In my experience, healing is quite boring in PVE. You basically have all dps ball up at a certain location and spam heals in a specific X marks the spot. Even in the hardest veteran trials, that’s all healers do. On easier content people can get sloppy and spread out and the healer sends heals in different directions but really, you’re just adding turning the camera to different spots to your rotation. Reducing healing overall would make all content more challenging and make winning feel even better when the battles end.

In my post, my suggestion was to not adjust gameplay for PvE and be more surgical in only limiting the instances of healing to match the requirements for trials. Ex: If a trial can be completed with 2 instances of echoing vigor and radiating regen each for a group of 12, excluding healing sets, than the same amount of instances should become the cap for these types of "sticky hots".

Now if you're proposing nerfing healing across the board for PvE and PvP, which is not what I think is the best route to take, say it at the top instead of saying it now.

Any change that ZOS does to healing would have to be a global type of change. It doesn’t make sense to change the rules of the game to fit certain trials or situations. ZOS can’t even provide a list of what sets work and don’t work in No CP settings. If they made healing work differently for each trial, they would never keep up with it. I don’t think your suggestion is any good.

Ishtarknows · February 17

Skoomah wrote: »

Aren’t trials too easy to clear at the moment? Either healing or dps is too strong, no?

Last boss in Sanity's Edge hard mode would disagree with you. Teams regularly have a DD convert to healer for this fight. So there would be potentially 3 instances of regen, vigour etc

Leia98 · February 18

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Aren’t trials too easy to clear at the moment? Either healing or dps is too strong, no?

Last boss in Sanity's Edge hard mode would disagree with you. Teams regularly have a DD convert to healer for this fight. So there would be potentially 3 instances of regen, vigour etc

yeah but that's only one boss. almost all earlier trials can be cleared with only one healer, and for some dungeons having a healer is completely useless since there is no need for them

I've been a healer as long as I've played this game and only from my experience I can say that the healing part of the game, excluding the most recent trials, is rather easy. Now, a healer's job is not just to heal and keep up buffs and that makes the job of the healer interesting for me.

All kinds of healing are pretty strong, not only the healing from the restoration staff, but also the healing from classes and other sources. You have what you call a barrier skill which easily mitigates most of the healing checks in dungeons. Even in recent dungeons where healing is needed you still do not have to take a dedicated healer because self healing is often enough.

Leia98 · February 18

Skoomah wrote: »

Healing is arguably one of the strongest components of survivability in the game and a good healer serves as the best force multiplier when it comes to small and large group play. One good healer in a small group of 4 makes a night and day difference against a small group without a healer. In large group play, a well coordinated ball group that cross heals amongst all 12 team members are almost impossible to take down unless they get rolled over by overwhelming numbers.

I would like to propose the devs introduce dynamic healing. Total healing output remains the same but gets divided by the number of people you’re healing.

For example, if the heal is 10,000 hit points. If you only heal yourself, you get the full 10,000 hit points of healing. And if you heal 4 people, then you only heal 2,500 hit points towards each of the 4 people but still totaling 10,000 hit points of healing.

Healers remain powerful but their impact towards the overall outcome contributes to a lesser extent.

Completely agree with the ''impact'' part
Healers are often left out of dungeon groups since self healing is pretty strong and almost all healing checks can be mitigated by either that or simply using the barrier skill

My point is, if there is a healing check, isn't it the most logical conclusion that the healer has to take the group through it? Why are we able to survive high and constant damage without the help of a healer?

Skoomah · February 18

Leia98 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Healing is arguably one of the strongest components of survivability in the game and a good healer serves as the best force multiplier when it comes to small and large group play. One good healer in a small group of 4 makes a night and day difference against a small group without a healer. In large group play, a well coordinated ball group that cross heals amongst all 12 team members are almost impossible to take down unless they get rolled over by overwhelming numbers.

I would like to propose the devs introduce dynamic healing. Total healing output remains the same but gets divided by the number of people you’re healing.

For example, if the heal is 10,000 hit points. If you only heal yourself, you get the full 10,000 hit points of healing. And if you heal 4 people, then you only heal 2,500 hit points towards each of the 4 people but still totaling 10,000 hit points of healing.

Healers remain powerful but their impact towards the overall outcome contributes to a lesser extent.

Completely agree with the ''impact'' part
Healers are often left out of dungeon groups since self healing is pretty strong and almost all healing checks can be mitigated by either that or simply using the barrier skill

My point is, if there is a healing check, isn't it the most logical conclusion that the healer has to take the group through it? Why are we able to survive high and constant damage without the help of a healer?

I’m mainly a PvP player so I’m speaking to the power of healing from that perspective. If we make this change through battle spirit then either:

1. dynamic healing, just divide the healing amount by the number of players being healed
2. decrease the power of healing from 50% less to 55% or 60% less healing
3. increase the power of major defile to 36% and minor defile to 16%

Panderbander · February 19

Skoomah wrote: »

Leia98 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Healing is arguably one of the strongest components of survivability in the game and a good healer serves as the best force multiplier when it comes to small and large group play. One good healer in a small group of 4 makes a night and day difference against a small group without a healer. In large group play, a well coordinated ball group that cross heals amongst all 12 team members are almost impossible to take down unless they get rolled over by overwhelming numbers.

I would like to propose the devs introduce dynamic healing. Total healing output remains the same but gets divided by the number of people you’re healing.

For example, if the heal is 10,000 hit points. If you only heal yourself, you get the full 10,000 hit points of healing. And if you heal 4 people, then you only heal 2,500 hit points towards each of the 4 people but still totaling 10,000 hit points of healing.

Healers remain powerful but their impact towards the overall outcome contributes to a lesser extent.

Completely agree with the ''impact'' part
Healers are often left out of dungeon groups since self healing is pretty strong and almost all healing checks can be mitigated by either that or simply using the barrier skill

My point is, if there is a healing check, isn't it the most logical conclusion that the healer has to take the group through it? Why are we able to survive high and constant damage without the help of a healer?

I’m mainly a PvP player so I’m speaking to the power of healing from that perspective. If we make this change through battle spirit then either:

1. dynamic healing, just divide the healing amount by the number of players being healed
2. decrease the power of healing from 50% less to 55% or 60% less healing
3. increase the power of major defile to 36% and minor defile to 16%

I'd be leary of further reducing healing via battle spirit but could definitely get behind buffing defile. It introduces a skill check to healing by modulating based on how well you deal with the debuff. It's just so ineffective right now that you can't really feel it when it's on you or someone else. Jerall Mountains Warchief and its unique defile on top of named defiles gives a much better approximation of how defile should feel.

xDeusEJRx · February 19

Panderbander wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Leia98 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Healing is arguably one of the strongest components of survivability in the game and a good healer serves as the best force multiplier when it comes to small and large group play. One good healer in a small group of 4 makes a night and day difference against a small group without a healer. In large group play, a well coordinated ball group that cross heals amongst all 12 team members are almost impossible to take down unless they get rolled over by overwhelming numbers.

I would like to propose the devs introduce dynamic healing. Total healing output remains the same but gets divided by the number of people you’re healing.

For example, if the heal is 10,000 hit points. If you only heal yourself, you get the full 10,000 hit points of healing. And if you heal 4 people, then you only heal 2,500 hit points towards each of the 4 people but still totaling 10,000 hit points of healing.

Healers remain powerful but their impact towards the overall outcome contributes to a lesser extent.

Completely agree with the ''impact'' part
Healers are often left out of dungeon groups since self healing is pretty strong and almost all healing checks can be mitigated by either that or simply using the barrier skill

My point is, if there is a healing check, isn't it the most logical conclusion that the healer has to take the group through it? Why are we able to survive high and constant damage without the help of a healer?

I’m mainly a PvP player so I’m speaking to the power of healing from that perspective. If we make this change through battle spirit then either:

1. dynamic healing, just divide the healing amount by the number of players being healed
2. decrease the power of healing from 50% less to 55% or 60% less healing
3. increase the power of major defile to 36% and minor defile to 16%

I'd be leary of further reducing healing via battle spirit but could definitely get behind buffing defile. It introduces a skill check to healing by modulating based on how well you deal with the debuff. It's just so ineffective right now that you can't really feel it when it's on you or someone else. Jerall Mountains Warchief and its unique defile on top of named defiles gives a much better approximation of how defile should feel.

Don't think defile should be buffed, because honestly it just makes cross healing groups stronger than the groups that can't/dont cross heal. It doesn't really matter much how much the actual healing value is in PVP if you can spam multiple cross heals at once. Radiating regen healing 500 a tick doesn't matter if you can bring 10 radiating regens to a fight, not to mention the other cross heals as well. At that point defile will only be nerfing the people who don't have strong healing power at their disposal in the first place.

Jerall mountain only feels good because it's not an easily sourced debuff(it requires you to run that set), therefore it's not a factor in every fight. If defile is strong, everyone will run it, especially groups that benefit from cross heals currently (because defile IS easily sourced)

The only way defile being buffed will be a good choice is if cross healing gets a nerf in PVP, because more healing power is always better than a group that has less healing power, no matter how much the ticks are(meaning defile buff won't bring an end to OP cross heals, which is the problem with healing imo). Not to mention most groups typically have at least 2 or more cross heals per player going on at once which further reinforces that idea.

Panderbander · February 19

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Leia98 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Healing is arguably one of the strongest components of survivability in the game and a good healer serves as the best force multiplier when it comes to small and large group play. One good healer in a small group of 4 makes a night and day difference against a small group without a healer. In large group play, a well coordinated ball group that cross heals amongst all 12 team members are almost impossible to take down unless they get rolled over by overwhelming numbers.

I would like to propose the devs introduce dynamic healing. Total healing output remains the same but gets divided by the number of people you’re healing.

For example, if the heal is 10,000 hit points. If you only heal yourself, you get the full 10,000 hit points of healing. And if you heal 4 people, then you only heal 2,500 hit points towards each of the 4 people but still totaling 10,000 hit points of healing.

Healers remain powerful but their impact towards the overall outcome contributes to a lesser extent.

Completely agree with the ''impact'' part
Healers are often left out of dungeon groups since self healing is pretty strong and almost all healing checks can be mitigated by either that or simply using the barrier skill

My point is, if there is a healing check, isn't it the most logical conclusion that the healer has to take the group through it? Why are we able to survive high and constant damage without the help of a healer?

I’m mainly a PvP player so I’m speaking to the power of healing from that perspective. If we make this change through battle spirit then either:

1. dynamic healing, just divide the healing amount by the number of players being healed
2. decrease the power of healing from 50% less to 55% or 60% less healing
3. increase the power of major defile to 36% and minor defile to 16%

I'd be leary of further reducing healing via battle spirit but could definitely get behind buffing defile. It introduces a skill check to healing by modulating based on how well you deal with the debuff. It's just so ineffective right now that you can't really feel it when it's on you or someone else. Jerall Mountains Warchief and its unique defile on top of named defiles gives a much better approximation of how defile should feel.

Don't think defile should be buffed, because honestly it just makes cross healing groups stronger than the groups that can't/dont cross heal. It doesn't really matter much how much the actual healing value is in PVP if you can spam multiple cross heals at once. Radiating regen healing 500 a tick doesn't matter if you can bring 10 radiating regens to a fight, not to mention the other cross heals as well. At that point defile will only be nerfing the people who don't have strong healing power at their disposal in the first place.

Jerall mountain only feels good because it's not an easily sourced debuff(it requires you to run that set), therefore it's not a factor in every fight. If defile is strong, everyone will run it, especially groups that benefit from cross heals currently (because defile IS easily sourced)

The only way defile being buffed will be a good choice is if cross healing gets a nerf in PVP, because more healing power is always better than a group that has less healing power, no matter how much the ticks are(meaning defile buff won't bring an end to OP cross heals, which is the problem with healing imo). Not to mention most groups typically have at least 2 or more cross heals per player going on at once which further reinforces that idea.

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree heal stacking needs to go. I just think Defile in its current state isn't worth the investment.