Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

StaticWave · May 19

RomanRex wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Seems to me like sorc isn't overpowered as much as it is following the poor game design trends.

Same. It’s more competitive now with other classes which have accumulated design issues over time. Mag sorcs just finally got a little love after many years of hardly any and this is the reaction.

Rather than a balanced and nuanced approach to fixing broader problematic design trends, the thread goes mega hard on clawing back something that actually makes non-pet mag sorcs competitive without being overpowered

There aren’t insane threads where a couple folks posts hundreds and hundreds of times like this. Where people get toxic/condescending/demeaning/sarcastic about other classes (other than perhaps gank-blades) the way this thread does almost daily.

People may comment sporadically in those threads, but this one has gotten off the rails so, so many times. The only thread this insane is about nightblade perma-glow weapons. Not even mechs.

Ward is overpowered

ilawana · May 19

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

StaticWave · May 19

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

ilawana · May 19

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

Now we’re talking!

That’s my only point. Sorc isn’t necessarily stronger than dk or nb or warden in any significant way, at least not from what I’m seeing. If I am fighting a good dk, fighting a good nb, or fighting a good sorc, the outcome is the same. No one dies. Its a matter of who can maintain resources longer.

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

DaisyRay · May 19

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

Now we’re talking!

That’s my only point. Sorc isn’t necessarily stronger than dk or nb or warden in any significant way, at least not from what I’m seeing. If I am fighting a good dk, fighting a good nb, or fighting a good sorc, the outcome is the same. No one dies. Its a matter of who can maintain resources longer.

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

I agree with this mostly, but I don't think the sorc defensive skills are as overpowered as a dk. I was fighting a dk yesterday and every time he got to low health, he hit that blood skill and went right back to full health. The nb near me couldn't even kill him. So I struggle to see how people even put the sorc ward in the same op category as polar wind and the dk blood skill.

However, I do agree that this game is not balanced at all. So stop trying to nerf things unless everything is getting a fix, that seems fair to me.

xylena_lazarow · May 19

ilawana wrote: »

That’s my only point. Sorc isn’t necessarily stronger than dk or nb or warden in any significant way, at least not from what I’m seeing.

full 41m range

Jsmalls · May 19

@StaticWave

You're misunderstanding the strength of block mitigation scaling or you're providing a 1v1 scenario that supplements your side of the argument. Also vibrant shroud is a mediocre heal currently, this will change next update though.

Block mitigation scales by a % so the number of individuals attacking is going to greatly skew is value.

For the record block mitigation with base CP is 53% on non S&B / Frost staff bar.

If you have 30k health versus 30k health with a 15k ward and hold block without healing and take 50k damage.

The first one will take 23500 and the second will take 15k+16.5k= 31.5k total damage.

Now let's bring this down to low health thresholds with a heal.

(I'm going to be bias here and use healing values near a keep, which is another negative for Ward I forget to include)
Both individuals are at 5k health.

First one pops a 17k heal. Total health 22k. Receives 45k damage. Takes 21k damage, survives with 1k health.

Second pops a 7k heal with a 15k shield. Total health 12k shield 15k. Receives 45k damage. Takes 15k to shield then 14k to health. Total 29k damage. Dies with 2000 damage excess.

This isn't even including if your opponent has bastion active which in my opinion has value this update as the only damage oriented Red Star. For example that same scenario above with bastion they would have died with 3000 damage excess.

In dueling I think we've beaten that horse enough already. You likely aren't going to be taking 45k damage per gcd and shield will always perform better as the threshold for damage mitigated with block likely will never surpass damage mitigated with the damage shield.

Other points:

If you're not wearing light armor then you'll get extra resistances, extra spell damage, extra crit damage, and take less damage from melee etc. I don't think this is the topic for light armor versus other weights. They each have their pros and cons.

Two extra bar slots

DoTs continue ticking whether you are offensive or defensive. Those likely have extra effects to supplement them as well for example vampires bane gives crit. If you're talking overall damage DoTs and spammables are close per GCD with DoTs winning. But it's the added damage while taking additional damage from the long DoTs that helps out pressure an opponent. This is why I like hurricane and if I could fit more dots then I would.
I will say this matters much more in 1v1 scenarios versus GvG scenarios. Where spammables are absolutely king.

Temporary health (shield expiration)

I think budding seeds is a weird comparison. I don't think the abilities can be compared, like at all.

The point of this is let's say you avoid damage by dodge rolling or LoSing. Eventually or if the scenario calls for it and you avoid damage for the duration of the Ward the resources used had lesser efficiency than a heal would have.

I recognize this is a unique scenario because the majority of the time my Ward doesn't last it's duration.

I think the bigger pain point is I sacrifice maximum health for shield strength because the magicka gives me both survivability with the Ward size as well as additional damage. That's how I choose to play, higher risk, higher reward. That's why you see me with 24k health in BGs and 27k health in cyrodiil. If I don't micro manage my Ward I'm dead in an instant. Whether in combat or out of combat to a ganker. 27k health is gone in an instant. But 41k effective health is more than sufficient.

Rallying Cry:

Yeah it definitely does, my worry here is that without Rallying cry 50-55k magicka feels like the minimum for open world. You're only getting that by running 2 passive bar slots and crafty alfiq. That's how it was in previous patches and that's extremely limiting. This is the first patch in awhile I've actually been able to use varying sets (Hrothgar/Coral Riptide/Shattered Fate) as a secondary set instead of ancient grace and crafty.

Id rather see the high end of the ability nerfed than the whole thing changed because that'll completely kill diversity again.

StaticWave · May 19

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

Now we’re talking!

That’s my only point. Sorc isn’t necessarily stronger than dk or nb or warden in any significant way, at least not from what I’m seeing. If I am fighting a good dk, fighting a good nb, or fighting a good sorc, the outcome is the same. No one dies. Its a matter of who can maintain resources longer.

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

No. There has been plenty of threads asking for healing nerf. You can search them up. Ward shouldn’t have an exception just because other heals havent been addressed. They all get a thread of their own and whether ZOS decides to do anything about it, well that’s up to them.

StaticWave · May 19

DaisyRay wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

Now we’re talking!

That’s my only point. Sorc isn’t necessarily stronger than dk or nb or warden in any significant way, at least not from what I’m seeing. If I am fighting a good dk, fighting a good nb, or fighting a good sorc, the outcome is the same. No one dies. Its a matter of who can maintain resources longer.

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

I agree with this mostly, but I don't think the sorc defensive skills are as overpowered as a dk. I was fighting a dk yesterday and every time he got to low health, he hit that blood skill and went right back to full health. The nb near me couldn't even kill him. So I struggle to see how people even put the sorc ward in the same op category as polar wind and the dk blood skill.

However, I do agree that this game is not balanced at all. So stop trying to nerf things unless everything is getting a fix, that seems fair to me.

Ward is 100% better than Coag right now, and I have multiple clips doing the same thing as a DK to prove that.

xylena_lazarow · May 19

Jsmalls wrote: »

Id rather see the high end of the ability nerfed than the whole thing changed because that'll completely kill diversity again.

The buffs to Sorc passives that enable them to once again hit 50-60k max mag efficiently are what's enabling the high end of Ward. These plus Sorc's other buffs were definitely enough to revitalize shield magsorc, adding the Ward burst heal broke it. So either you nerf Ward, or you nerf Sorc itself (let's not). Don't really care exactly how they nerf Ward, they could delete the heal, they could cap the values, they could add ramping cost, they could make it conditional... not our job.

Have you played Arc yet? How's it compare to playing Sorc?

DaisyRay · May 19

StaticWave wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

Now we’re talking!

That’s my only point. Sorc isn’t necessarily stronger than dk or nb or warden in any significant way, at least not from what I’m seeing. If I am fighting a good dk, fighting a good nb, or fighting a good sorc, the outcome is the same. No one dies. Its a matter of who can maintain resources longer.

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

I agree with this mostly, but I don't think the sorc defensive skills are as overpowered as a dk. I was fighting a dk yesterday and every time he got to low health, he hit that blood skill and went right back to full health. The nb near me couldn't even kill him. So I struggle to see how people even put the sorc ward in the same op category as polar wind and the dk blood skill.

However, I do agree that this game is not balanced at all. So stop trying to nerf things unless everything is getting a fix, that seems fair to me.

Ward is 100% better than Coag right now, and I have multiple clips doing the same thing as a DK to prove that.

Are they in this forum? I'll go watch them if so. I have my own experience to go on, so I respectfully disagree.

ilawana · May 19

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

m

Now we’re talking

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

DaisyRay wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

Now we’re talking!

That’s my only point. Sorc isn’t necessarily stronger than dk or nb or warden in any significant way, at least not from what I’m seeing. If I am fighting a good dk, fighting a good nb, or fighting a good sorc, the outcome is the same. No one dies. Its a matter of who can maintain resources longer.

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

I agree with this mostly, but I don't think the sorc defensive skills are as overpowered as a dk. I was fighting a dk yesterday and every time he got to low health, he hit that blood skill and went right back to full health. The nb near me couldn't even kill him. So I struggle to see how people even put the sorc ward in the same op category as polar wind and the dk blood skill.

However, I do agree that this game is not balanced at all. So stop trying to nerf things unless everything is getting a fix, that seems fair to me.

They aren't the same, but they are just about equivalent I think, and polar wind is the weakest of the three. Ward might not get you to full health like coagulating blood, but it does allow you to recover just as well by giving you a small heal on top of the 15k effective hp that is the damage shield. You may have to spam ward more than coag, but in the right circumstances it seems like dk has to spam coag just as much.

StaticWave · May 19

Jsmalls wrote: »

You're misunderstanding the strength of block mitigation scaling or you're providing a 1v1 scenario that supplements your side of the argument. Also vibrant shroud is a mediocre heal currently, this will change next update though.

Which is why I said in my next post that I will redo the test next patch with buffed Blood Magic.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Block mitigation scales by a % so the number of individuals attacking is going to greatly skew is value.

For the record block mitigation with base CP is 53% on non S&B / Frost staff bar.

If you have 30k health versus 30k health with a 15k ward and hold block without healing and take 50k damage.

The first one will take 23500 and the second will take 15k+16.5k= 31.5k total damage.

Right, so in that example, the 30k HP player will take 23500 damage, leaving 6500 HP left. The 2nd player will have 15k damage absorbed by the shield, thereby leaving 35k damage left to be mitigated by block mitigation. That's 13.5k HP left compared to the first player.

That's where I think you made a mistake. The remaining HP for the Ward user will be higher than the burst heal user.

Therefore, the 30k HP player with a 15k shield will be better off compared to a 30k player without the shield, even if both are blocking.

EDIT: I made some calculation errors. The Ward user mitigates 15k damage with a shield, and mitigates the remaining 35k damage. He will take 16.5k damage, leaving 13.5k HP left, not 11.4k

StaticWave · May 19

DaisyRay wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

Now we’re talking!

That’s my only point. Sorc isn’t necessarily stronger than dk or nb or warden in any significant way, at least not from what I’m seeing. If I am fighting a good dk, fighting a good nb, or fighting a good sorc, the outcome is the same. No one dies. Its a matter of who can maintain resources longer.

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

I agree with this mostly, but I don't think the sorc defensive skills are as overpowered as a dk. I was fighting a dk yesterday and every time he got to low health, he hit that blood skill and went right back to full health. The nb near me couldn't even kill him. So I struggle to see how people even put the sorc ward in the same op category as polar wind and the dk blood skill.

However, I do agree that this game is not balanced at all. So stop trying to nerf things unless everything is getting a fix, that seems fair to me.

Ward is 100% better than Coag right now, and I have multiple clips doing the same thing as a DK to prove that.

Are they in this forum? I'll go watch them if so. I have my own experience to go on, so I respectfully disagree.

I'll post them tomorrow

ilawana · May 19

StaticWave wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

Now we’re talking!

That’s my only point. Sorc isn’t necessarily stronger than dk or nb or warden in any significant way, at least not from what I’m seeing. If I am fighting a good dk, fighting a good nb, or fighting a good sorc, the outcome is the same. No one dies. Its a matter of who can maintain resources longer.

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

I agree with this mostly, but I don't think the sorc defensive skills are as overpowered as a dk. I was fighting a dk yesterday and every time he got to low health, he hit that blood skill and went right back to full health. The nb near me couldn't even kill him. So I struggle to see how people even put the sorc ward in the same op category as polar wind and the dk blood skill.

However, I do agree that this game is not balanced at all. So stop trying to nerf things unless everything is getting a fix, that seems fair to me.

Ward is 100% better than Coag right now, and I have multiple clips doing the same thing as a DK to prove that.

I don't see that being true. Minmaxed ward vs minmaxed coag? They seem just about on par with each other. I suppose ward might be slightly better (maybe), but I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say that ward is twice as good as coag. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. You can't kill either of them.

StaticWave · May 19

Jsmalls wrote: »

Now let's bring this down to low health thresholds with a heal.

(I'm going to be bias here and use healing values near a keep, which is another negative for Ward I forget to include)
Both individuals are at 5k health.

First one pops a 17k heal. Total health 22k. Receives 45k damage. Takes 21k damage, survives with 1k health.

Second pops a 7k heal with a 15k shield. Total health 12k shield 15k. Receives 45k damage. Takes 15k to shield then 14k to health. Total 29k damage. Dies with 2000 damage excess.

This isn't even including if your opponent has bastion active which in my opinion has value this update as the only damage oriented Red Star. For example that same scenario above with bastion they would have died with 3000 damage excess.

In dueling I think we've beaten that horse enough already. You likely aren't going to be taking 45k damage per gcd and shield will always perform better as the threshold for damage mitigated with block likely will never surpass damage mitigated with the damage shield.

Here was your scenario:

Both players at 5k HP.

1st player block casts a burst heal for 17k and goes to 22k. He takes 45k dmg, mitigates almost 24k of that and receives 21k dmg, survives with 1k HP.

2nd player block casts a shield for 15k shield and 7k heal and goes to 12k HP and 15k shield. He takes 45k damage, which is absorbed by the 15k shield, leaving 30k damage to be mitigated by block mitigation. He ends up taking 14k damage and dies.

Here's also another scenario that you left out:

1st player block casts a burst heal for 8k non crit and goes to 13k. He takes 45k damage, mitigates 24k and receives 21k and dies.

If the burst heal crits, he lives. If it doesn't, he dies. If the Ward user preemptively uses Ward, he lives. If he doesn't, he dies. I think it's fair to conclude that both abilities will have their own weakness in certain scenarios, but I could argue that it's tougher to get low unless you are severely outnumbered or fighting a super aids build.

xylena_lazarow · May 19

ilawana wrote: »

Minmaxed ward vs minmaxed coag?

Both are powerful spammable recovery. Casting Ward at full hp gives you a 16k shield. Casting Coag at full hp does nothing.

StaticWave · May 19

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

Now we’re talking!

That’s my only point. Sorc isn’t necessarily stronger than dk or nb or warden in any significant way, at least not from what I’m seeing. If I am fighting a good dk, fighting a good nb, or fighting a good sorc, the outcome is the same. No one dies. Its a matter of who can maintain resources longer.

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

I agree with this mostly, but I don't think the sorc defensive skills are as overpowered as a dk. I was fighting a dk yesterday and every time he got to low health, he hit that blood skill and went right back to full health. The nb near me couldn't even kill him. So I struggle to see how people even put the sorc ward in the same op category as polar wind and the dk blood skill.

However, I do agree that this game is not balanced at all. So stop trying to nerf things unless everything is getting a fix, that seems fair to me.

Ward is 100% better than Coag right now, and I have multiple clips doing the same thing as a DK to prove that.

I don't see that being true. Minmaxed ward vs minmaxed coag? They seem just about on par with each other. I suppose ward might be slightly better (maybe), but I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say that ward is twice as good as coag. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. You can't kill either of them.

Yes, a minmaxed Coag will crit heal for about 17-18k without keep buff, and a minmaxed Ward will crit heal for about 8k and provide a 16k shield. They appear to be on par, but we need to remember that for Coag to provide that much healing, you have to be at a lower HP threshold. You don't need to do that for Ward, as the value is fixed for any HP threshold.

Ward is better in that regard because you can preemptively use it to prevent getting low, and the burst heal is sufficient enough to get you out of the 50-60% HP threshold. You can't really cast Coag at full HP, as the overheal wouldn't do anything for you. Coag is of course better at getting you to full HP from low HP if it crits, but in general, Ward will perform better than Coag.

RomanRex · May 19

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

100% agree. This was a long overdue change that helps make non-pet mag sorcs viable.

The undue levels of obsession on this post bashing a single skill change that isn’t overpowered relative to similar “broken” skills from other class skill trees is wild.

There isn’t this level of continual hyper-posting on threads with other “broken” skills being “fixed” despite being just as powerful for most skilled players in various situations.

Many diverse voices supporting this change (even if partially) are represented while only a couple limited (but disproportionate in their posting frequency) voices repeatedly decrying it.

ilawana · May 19

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

Now we’re talking!

That’s my only point. Sorc isn’t necessarily stronger than dk or nb or warden in any significant way, at least not from what I’m seeing. If I am fighting a good dk, fighting a good nb, or fighting a good sorc, the outcome is the same. No one dies. Its a matter of who can maintain resources longer.

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

I agree with this mostly, but I don't think the sorc defensive skills are as overpowered as a dk. I was fighting a dk yesterday and every time he got to low health, he hit that blood skill and went right back to full health. The nb near me couldn't even kill him. So I struggle to see how people even put the sorc ward in the same op category as polar wind and the dk blood skill.

However, I do agree that this game is not balanced at all. So stop trying to nerf things unless everything is getting a fix, that seems fair to me.

Ward is 100% better than Coag right now, and I have multiple clips doing the same thing as a DK to prove that.

I don't see that being true. Minmaxed ward vs minmaxed coag? They seem just about on par with each other. I suppose ward might be slightly better (maybe), but I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say that ward is twice as good as coag. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. You can't kill either of them.

Yes, a minmaxed Coag will crit heal for about 17-18k without keep buff, and a minmaxed Ward will crit heal for about 8k and provide a 16k shield. They appear to be on par, but we need to remember that for Coag to provide that much healing, you have to be at a lower HP threshold. You don't need to do that for Ward, as the value is fixed for any HP threshold.

Ward is better in that regard because you can preemptively use it to prevent getting low, and the burst heal is sufficient enough to get you out of the 50-60% HP threshold. You can't really cast Coag at full HP, as the overheal wouldn't do anything for you. Coag is of course better at getting you to full HP from low HP if it crits, but in general, Ward will perform better than Coag.

I see how ward has more potential than coag since it gives you defense even at full health. Though, I don't see why dks would need that as they have other skills to keep them from getting low. So, to have that ability would be redundant. Sorcs don't have as easy access to skills that keep their health from getting low. Ward and streak are about it. Sure surge is one of the best hots in the game, but you can't argue that it isn't always the most reliable. Unlike a dk with vigor who will be guaranteed the hot for the duration. With the exception of sorcs that are running a bunch of dots, which would result in them sacrificing shield strength.

ilawana · May 19

RomanRex wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

100% agree. This was a long overdue change that helps make non-pet mag sorcs viable.

The undue levels of obsession on this post bashing a single skill change that isn’t overpowered relative to similar “broken” skills from other class skill trees is wild.

There isn’t this level of continual hyper-posting on threads with other “broken” skills being “fixed” despite being just as powerful for most skilled players in various situations.

Many diverse voices supporting this change (even if partially) are represented while only a couple limited (but disproportionate in their posting frequency) voices repeatedly decrying it.

To be fair, there have been many a forum posts arguing for dk and nb nerfs. Those haven't happened yet but that doesn't mean they aren't still needed. And more sorc changes are needed as well, both buffs and nerfs in different areas. However, I don't think ZOS should consider nerfing sorc without taking a good look at the other classes.

StaticWave · May 19

RomanRex wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

100% agree. This was a long overdue change that helps make non-pet mag sorcs viable.

The undue levels of obsession on this post bashing a single skill change that isn’t overpowered relative to similar “broken” skills from other class skill trees is wild.

There isn’t this level of continual hyper-posting on threads with other “broken” skills being “fixed” despite being just as powerful for most skilled players in various situations.

Many diverse voices supporting this change (even if partially) are represented while only a couple limited (but disproportionate in their posting frequency) voices repeatedly decrying it.

Ward is 100% overpowered

StaticWave · May 19

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

Now we’re talking!

That’s my only point. Sorc isn’t necessarily stronger than dk or nb or warden in any significant way, at least not from what I’m seeing. If I am fighting a good dk, fighting a good nb, or fighting a good sorc, the outcome is the same. No one dies. Its a matter of who can maintain resources longer.

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

I agree with this mostly, but I don't think the sorc defensive skills are as overpowered as a dk. I was fighting a dk yesterday and every time he got to low health, he hit that blood skill and went right back to full health. The nb near me couldn't even kill him. So I struggle to see how people even put the sorc ward in the same op category as polar wind and the dk blood skill.

However, I do agree that this game is not balanced at all. So stop trying to nerf things unless everything is getting a fix, that seems fair to me.

Ward is 100% better than Coag right now, and I have multiple clips doing the same thing as a DK to prove that.

I don't see that being true. Minmaxed ward vs minmaxed coag? They seem just about on par with each other. I suppose ward might be slightly better (maybe), but I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say that ward is twice as good as coag. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. You can't kill either of them.

Yes, a minmaxed Coag will crit heal for about 17-18k without keep buff, and a minmaxed Ward will crit heal for about 8k and provide a 16k shield. They appear to be on par, but we need to remember that for Coag to provide that much healing, you have to be at a lower HP threshold. You don't need to do that for Ward, as the value is fixed for any HP threshold.

Ward is better in that regard because you can preemptively use it to prevent getting low, and the burst heal is sufficient enough to get you out of the 50-60% HP threshold. You can't really cast Coag at full HP, as the overheal wouldn't do anything for you. Coag is of course better at getting you to full HP from low HP if it crits, but in general, Ward will perform better than Coag.

I see how ward has more potential than coag since it gives you defense even at full health. Though, I don't see why dks would need that as they have other skills to keep them from getting low. So, to have that ability would be redundant. Sorcs don't have as easy access to skills that keep their health from getting low. Ward and streak are about it. Sure surge is one of the best hots in the game, but you can't argue that it isn't always the most reliable. Unlike a dk with vigor who will be guaranteed the hot for the duration. With the exception of sorcs that are running a bunch of dots, which would result in them sacrificing shield strength.

One of the arguments we had against Ward is the Global Cooldown opportunity cost.

You mentioned DKs having other skills to keep them from getting low, such as HoTs. You’re correct. A DK usually has several HoTs as supplemental healing to help with their burst heal. HOWEVER, they are also expending several GCDs every 5-15 seconds to reapply those HoTs.

Now compare that to Sorc’s offensive healing and Ward. Crit Surge isn’t always reliable, I completely agree. But with Elemental Susceptibility, you’re going to have more chances to deal critical damage from those status effects, which will help you proc Surge more reliably.

Combine that with Ward and you end up in a situation where the Sorc only needs to use 1 defensive ability to survive. With a 14-16k shield, the Sorc gets a soft counter to DoTs as that shield eats up those DoT effects. Should your shield expire or get fully removed, there is still a burst heal underneath to prevent your HP from dropping.

This is where the GCD opportunity cost argument comes in. While the DK has to cast those HoTs every 5-15s to mitigate DoT effects, the Sorc only needs to cast 1-2 Ward and be offensive. Keyword here is “be offensive”. Surge is going to proc underneath the shield and provide additional healing on top of the burst heal. While the DK has just finished its defensive rotation, the Sorc is already doing damage because it heals off that instead. That’s an advantage for the Sorc in a 1v1 scenario.

StaticWave · May 19

ilawana wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

It’s not an issue with ward or sorc, but the whole game design. If they aren’t going to fix the other classes then they shouldn’t touch sorc. In my opinion.

100% agree. This was a long overdue change that helps make non-pet mag sorcs viable.

The undue levels of obsession on this post bashing a single skill change that isn’t overpowered relative to similar “broken” skills from other class skill trees is wild.

There isn’t this level of continual hyper-posting on threads with other “broken” skills being “fixed” despite being just as powerful for most skilled players in various situations.

Many diverse voices supporting this change (even if partially) are represented while only a couple limited (but disproportionate in their posting frequency) voices repeatedly decrying it.

To be fair, there have been many a forum posts arguing for dk and nb nerfs. Those haven't happened yet but that doesn't mean they aren't still needed. And more sorc changes are needed as well, both buffs and nerfs in different areas. However, I don't think ZOS should consider nerfing sorc without taking a good look at the other classes.

I think they need to do both. A lot of nerf threads for NB/DK were created but it took ZOS a long time to address them (a few years for Corrosive nerf, and almost a year for Concealed nerf). So just because ZOS isn’t doing anything about Sorc right now doesn’t mean they won’t. They probably have limited human resources right now to focus on these combat changes.

A few proposed changes to help Sorc survive better without being too tanky are:

1) Convert the burst heal to a HoT of equal potency, but over 3-4 seconds

2) Remove the HoT and convert 1 morph of Dark Exchange to be instant cast with reduced resource sustain like the Druid Mastery from Wield Soul’s scribing skill

3) Reduce the tooltip for Crit Surge but give it a 100% proc rate

4) Reworked Blood Magic for U42 update is promising as it allows you to proc the heal passive without needing to land an attack

5) Improve the class’ mobility by prolonging Major Expedition

xylena_lazarow · May 19

StaticWave wrote: »

Sorc survive better without being too tanky

Already done, the Ward burst heal was simply overkill, if a player can't get by using 15k shield + Vigor and/or Vibrant + hots, then they should be obligated to start trading damage from their build for more survival and sustain.

DrSlaughtr · May 19

I'm not a fan of calling for class nerfs because I think 99% of the time it is reactionary and the reasons are very narrow. However, Hardened Ward is really, really strong right now. IMO the only reason you don't see more sorcs is because it's a very specific playstyle that not everyone enjoys. Hopping around just hitting ward every 6 seconds, wiping out a majority of incoming damage every time. When a player has 30k+ health AND a revolving 12 to 15k damage shield, it becomes very difficult to deal with, and even when you get them down, they can quickly escape out of melee range.

Let's compare NB nerfs and counters.

- At least two sets. Sentry to counter cloak and Zoal the Ever-Wakeful to interrupt burst rotation.
- Detect pot range increased to nearly 50 meters.
- Three reveal skills, all of which were buffed a couple years ago.
- Sorc's have Haunting Curse, which is a major drag on staying cloaked.
- Every class has access to Ele Drain, which lasts 60 seconds and continually pops a NB out every few seconds.
- Champion Points.

I feel like I'm forgetting something.

No other class has so many direct or indirect counters and you know what? That's okay with me. NBs have a lot of advantages. The only one that sticks in my crawl is Ele Drain as it basically sends you to timeout for 60 seconds unless there's a templar throwing down circles. At least with Haunting Curse you can blow the mag to cloak through it.

But countering shields in general is a massive pain in the butt. Shield Breaker can easily be out-healed and shielded. Bastion is just okay. Oblivion damage sources were nerfed a long, long time ago in a Tamriel far, far away, and they don't seem keen on undoing that.

My personal opinion is that rather than nerf shields or healing, simply give better access to oblivion damage. This would also help kill tanks in general. Go put on Knight Slayer and try to kill anyone with shields or high health and watch them ignore every bit of it. Sloads is a joke. Glyphs are underpowered. In general OD has not been good enough since Summerset.

Anyway, just my two cents. Everyone have a great day!

Turtle_Bot · May 20

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I'm not a fan of calling for class nerfs because I think 99% of the time it is reactionary and the reasons are very narrow. However, Hardened Ward is really, really strong right now. IMO the only reason you don't see more sorcs is because it's a very specific playstyle that not everyone enjoys. Hopping around just hitting ward every 6 seconds, wiping out a majority of incoming damage every time. When a player has 30k+ health AND a revolving 12 to 15k damage shield, it becomes very difficult to deal with, and even when you get them down, they can quickly escape out of melee range.

Let's compare NB nerfs and counters.

- At least two sets. Sentry to counter cloak and Zoal the Ever-Wakeful to interrupt burst rotation.
- Detect pot range increased to nearly 50 meters.
- Three reveal skills, all of which were buffed a couple years ago.
- Sorc's have Haunting Curse, which is a major drag on staying cloaked.
- Every class has access to Ele Drain, which lasts 60 seconds and continually pops a NB out every few seconds.
- Champion Points.

I feel like I'm forgetting something.

No other class has so many direct or indirect counters and you know what? That's okay with me. NBs have a lot of advantages. The only one that sticks in my crawl is Ele Drain as it basically sends you to timeout for 60 seconds unless there's a templar throwing down circles. At least with Haunting Curse you can blow the mag to cloak through it.

But countering shields in general is a massive pain in the butt. Shield Breaker can easily be out-healed and shielded. Bastion is just okay. Oblivion damage sources were nerfed a long, long time ago in a Tamriel far, far away, and they don't seem keen on undoing that.

My personal opinion is that rather than nerf shields or healing, simply give better access to oblivion damage. This would also help kill tanks in general. Go put on Knight Slayer and try to kill anyone with shields or high health and watch them ignore every bit of it. Sloads is a joke. Glyphs are underpowered. In general OD has not been good enough since Summerset.

Anyway, just my two cents. Everyone have a great day!

The main issue with just flat out buffing OD in the way you are suggesting is that oblivion damage doesn't hit all classes or defensive mechanics equally due to how shields function mechanically.

Lets compare hitting someone who is block casting heals compared to block casting shields:

- The player casting burst heals gains say 9k health from their heal and the oblivion damage (that also goes through block) hits them for 5k, they are now +4k health from where they were before the heal and OD ability were cast.
- The player casting sorc shield (heal + shield) for a 7k shield +2k heal and the OD hits them for 5k, that sorc is now down 3k health from before the ward and OD ability were cast.
- Even arcanist shield (shield only) for a 9k shield and the OD hits them for 5k, that Arcanist is now down 5k health from before the shield and OD ability were cast.

That is a massive difference in the resulting effective health gain between equally sized shields/heals, simply because the shields don't do anything to mitigate even a tiny portion of OD, compared to heals that grant true health.
For that same burst heal to be as ineffective in that scenario as even the sorc shield, that burst heal would have to heal for only 2k health (in other words, be as weak as a single HoT tick) and unless deliberately building for that bad of healing (completely naked, not even a weapon equipped), it is impossible to achieve that low of a heal value.

This issue becomes extremely prevalent when in execute range, as that 2-5k health loss is literally the difference between living and dying because the shields aren't doing anything to prevent any of the OD so they might as well have not been cast at all since even a single HoT tick would have just as much/more impact in that scenario.
This is with only a 5k tooltip too (upper limit of the current OD procs), imagine if it was the same as a spammable (10k) like the pre-nerf occultist CP was, or delayed burst (15k+) or heaven forbid Merc Resolve tooltip (25k+).
Sure, shields wouldn't be a problem anymore, but no class would be viable to play in cyrodiil (or any PvP mode) except NB since every other class that can't instantly LoS on demand like NB can would just lose 1/2 or more of their health instantly and be dead within 1-2 GCDs with no way to counter or outplay it (unlike the (intended) cloak counters, which can be easily outplayed via movement speed (which NB has in abundance) and heals (another thing NB has in abundance) and skill/game knowledge).

There's also no way to truly balance this discrepancy of OD over-effectiveness against shields, without doing a complete rework/redesign to the fundamental mechanics of heals, shields and/or oblivion damage (essentially redesigning these from the ground up).

To put your proposal to generically buff OD in a way that NB can relate to, lets say the sentry sets detection effect was a secondary effect on a cheap, strong and spammable DPS ability that didn't have a cooldown or on a proc set that had a 100% uptime that also dealt significant damage to cloaked enemies, that would still cast/target/proc on the NB even if the NB was already in stealth/cloak when it was cast/proc'd.
NBs would be up-in-arms over that type of ability/set being created, even at sloads weak power level, let alone that ability/set being called to be buffed even further, (they are already that worked up over the recent potion changes that have a 66% downtime when used on cooldown, deal zero damage to the NB that gets revealed, and have many other downsides to using those potions that have been listed ad-nauseum in other threads).

Turtle_Bot · May 20

StaticWave wrote: »

A few proposed changes to help Sorc survive better without being too tanky are:

1) Convert the burst heal to a HoT of equal potency, but over 3-4 seconds

2) Remove the HoT and convert 1 morph of Dark Exchange to be instant cast with reduced resource sustain like the Druid Mastery from Wield Soul’s scribing skill

3) Reduce the tooltip for Crit Surge but give it a 100% proc rate

4) Reworked Blood Magic for U42 update is promising as it allows you to proc the heal passive without needing to land an attack

5) Improve the class’ mobility by prolonging Major Expedition

Of these:
1) Some small adjustments to the numbers (HoTs are generally 25-30% stronger than burst heals for total healing done to account for the duration for it to complete that total heal amount) and duration increased to 6 seconds (and the HoT lasts the full duration, regardless if the ward lasts or not). The HoT being active cannot be tied to the shield being active since the shield often dies within 1-2 GCD already anyway, especially when in execute range.

2) This would be interesting, but the healing morph of wield soul already does this exact thing while also providing better alternative named buffs, so I don't really see this happening, or even being used tbh when the current healing morph of wield soul exists (sorc would just continue to run crushing/dizzy as the spammable in this case).

3) Imo, leave crit surge as is, many sorcs like it, but just want it to be more reliable. So just give sorc in class access to major prophecy/savagery in some way to help it proc more frequently.
I would, however, rework the other morph (power surge) to be an actual standard HoT that has a chance to proc a small AoE heal around the caster when it crit heals with a 2s cooldown instead of it's current "proc heal when crit healing" with a wonky 3s cooldown (that essentially means it has a 4s cooldown thanks to HoT tick rates being 2s).

4) I want to test this change out more too, specifically on live, to see how much of a difference this makes, especially with vibrant shroud. But it definitely is promising, at least in theory.

5) This is something that should have been done for magsorc specifically a long time ago when movement speed was made much more readily available to the other classes via RaT, etc. to bring its baseline speed up closer to stamsorc. Also they need to revert the mechanical nerfs done to lightning form (tick rate and base radius) so it's actually worth slotting (especially the mag morph) over chudan.

Note on 1: I still want to see what effect replacing the max stats on bound armor (and morphs) with major prophecy/savagery would have on sorc/ward. For sure it will reduce the peak of mag stacking since the cap would be 55k (not 60k+) and the damage builds shown above would sit much closer to 40k mag instead of 50k putting their ward sizes closer to 11-12k (on the damage build) and 13-14k (on the mag stacking build) since that change is an 8-15% drop to max magicka.

Note on 5: I wouldn't be opposed to seeing both morphs also have both major and minor expedition for the first 2 seconds on cast (then revert to their current split afterwards). Give sorc back its speed that it is supposed to be it's niche.

StaticWave · May 20

Here's a DK friend of mine that regularly pulls 6k DPS. I tested 2 duels vs him, with 1 duel using Vibrant Shroud and another duel using Hardened Ward. Both duels I was at 37k HP. My DK friend was in Malacath and I was in Rallying Cry, so my crit resist was nullified completely. I also had Malubeth to help with healing thru the DK. None of that should matter though. What matters is the difference between a regular burst heal vs Ward.

Duel with Vibrant Shroud:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Duel with Ward:

My damage:

His damage:

My healing:

Both duels lasted over 2 minutes 30 seconds, but I died in the 1st duel and ran out of the 2nd duel because we stalemated. I did more damage in the 2nd duel and had better sustain, as seen from the stamina and magicka drain/s vs regen/s

All I did was changed out Vibrant Shroud for Ward. Everything else stayed the same. This is what he had to say afterwards:

Also notice how Ward made up 36.9% of my healing, whereas Vibrant Shroud only made up 11%? Blood Magic made up 8.3% of my healing in the 1st duel compared to 5.1% in the 2nd duel, so this will probably change next patch with Blood Magic buff. However, I firmly believe that it's not going to improve the fight dramatically compared to just slotting Ward.

Can you think of a build that tanks 7.3k DPS while also dealing 3.5k dps back?

Turtle_Bot · May 20

StaticWave wrote: »

ilawana wrote: »

Coagulating Blood is overpowered too.

It is. So let’s nerf them both

So many heals in this game that still need adjusting alongside Hardened Ward:

Polar (has the highest ceiling of all heals, especially for high health builds, have seen this heal, not tooltip, actually heal, for 30k+ with 8k HoT ticks in cyro)
Coag (reverse execute scaling is too strong where it just synergizes too much with undeath)
Hardened (combined shield + burst heal value too strong with the current potential to stack max magicka)
Offering (far too cheap for the amount of healing it provides combined with the amount of damage and crit modifiers NB has and the "downside" (health cost) is, at most, completely negligible)
Echoing (stacked up is equal to a group wide burst heal every second that everyone can use from tanks to dds to healers)
Radiating (see echoing above, but slightly more restrictive due to requiring resto staff)
Gib shield (barrier that spreads to the group over its duration, making positioning for it much more forgiving than barrier)

Many were even adjusted in the past, so overpowered healing (or warding) is not something new to ESO:

Mender (basically a free burst heal every 2 seconds for 8-10 seconds)
Runeward (didn't scale/cap properly, basically a spammable barrier)
Arctic (instant stun on the burst heal made it impossible to take them down)
Blessings (was basically a ST burst heal but in an AoE)
Rapid regen (resolving vigor that could heal an ally)
Healing ward (basically current hardened but much bigger heal and had old shield mechanics/mitigation)
Harness magicka (basically provided infinite sustain, back when you actually had to build/work for sustain)
Plar Shield (basically an "I win" button as soon as enough players were ontop of you)
Plar bubble (think stronger vigor, that also ticked every 0.5-0.75 seconds, also reflected attacks and immobilized attackers instead of snare)
Mara's Balm (constant HoT + reliable, big, burst heal every 15 seconds)
Many others that I currently am not remembering.

Hardened needs adjusting, but so too does a lot of other abilities, and hardened is honestly just another one in a very, very long line of broken healing abilities that needs addressing in this game.