Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

Any cmx data or build editor screenshot to prove that?

Burden of proof is on Your side...

Can you prove Ward isn’t OP?

[edited to remove quote]

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Any cmx data or build editor screenshot to prove that? Burden of proof is on Your side

I have posted this build multiple times. I used it in Cyrodiil, no there is nothing special about piloting it compared to piloting a stamsorc, you move slower but you get to deal heavy pressure from range. Yes frags is better than wep here.





Please prove your position by explaining how the above is a balanced skill in the context of this meta. Thank you.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Any cmx data or build editor screenshot to prove that? Burden of proof is on Your side

I have posted this build multiple times. I used it in Cyrodiil, no there is nothing special about piloting it compared to piloting a stamsorc, you move slower but you get to deal heavy pressure from range. Yes frags is better than wep here.





Please prove your position by explaining how the above is a balanced skill in the context of this meta. Thank you.

They gonna say burden of proof is on us, but they can also argue in bad faith and no amount of evidence is gonna convince them lol.

I can give 100s of CMX data with various classes fighting a DK compared to a Sorc and they’re still gonna come up with something to move the goal post.

Me: Proved that Ward is better than regular burst heal at surviving high pressure without resorting to a cleanse set or cleanse CP

Them: You’re not using cleanse set on other classes

Me: Slot cleanse on both Ward build and burst heal build and still prove that Ward is better

Them: Come up with some other excuse

Can’t satisfy them when they argue in bad faith.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

For example when static was claiming bound aegis can provide up to 5,5k max magicka I don't need to link any cmx or build page to prove him wrong

This is what I said:

"This allows the Sorc to gain somewhere between 3.5-5.5k max mag depending on how much they already have, and also drop Undo for Dawnbreaker because they no longer need the Minor Protection on Undo"

That top end 5.5k was just a number I pulled out randomly and didn't verify, but you could absolutely cheese it to give 4.2k max mag when slotting Bound Aegis by wearing certain sets and playing in certain areas.

3.5k is also achievable for a normal build, like this:

Without Bound Aegis:



With Bound Aegis:




61657- 57892 = 3765 extra max mag from slotting Bound Aegis

Build is Crafty/Wretched/1x Domi/1x Swarm/DDF and using Crushing Weapon for Major Breach to have Hurricane. CP is also included with 4 dmg CPs because we don't need defensive CP on magsorc.

These are the stats self buffed in CP:

Front bar:





Back bar (just gonna show the resistances):



Tooltips:





Can you tell me a class that has 28.3k HP, 61.6k max mag, 27.2k max stam, 1.7k mag recov, 1.9k stam recov, 30% crit rate, 64% crit dmg, 26k resists back bar and 1.8k crit resist?

How do you expect to kill this sorc unless he messes up? 61k max mag = 16k+ shields and 10-11k burst heal tooltip. 61k max mag + 27k max stam +1.7k mag recov + 1.9k stam recov = infinite sustain, and that's not mentioning Overload sustain. Minor Expedition and Streak with 3 medium to give unmatched mobility.

Please explain to me how you expect to kill this Sorc unless you severely outnumber him? Don't give me the "but he won't do as much damage" bull crap. I can promise you this spec has enough damage for 99% of encounters in PvP except for the very elite players.

What are melee players going to do? You can't gap close him reliably cause he got Streak + movement speed. Even if you do, he got a 16k ward + 11k burst heal underneath

I'm sorry but anybody defending this is literally being biased.

The only part of this long comment that was connected to what I said was quote "that top end 5.5k was just a number I pulled out randomly and didn't verify". Everything else is just some talking just to talk that is complety not related to the topic of my comment.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

For example when static was claiming bound aegis can provide up to 5,5k max magicka I don't need to link any cmx or build page to prove him wrong

This is what I said:

"This allows the Sorc to gain somewhere between 3.5-5.5k max mag depending on how much they already have, and also drop Undo for Dawnbreaker because they no longer need the Minor Protection on Undo"

That top end 5.5k was just a number I pulled out randomly and didn't verify, but you could absolutely cheese it to give 4.2k max mag when slotting Bound Aegis by wearing certain sets and playing in certain areas.

3.5k is also achievable for a normal build, like this:

Without Bound Aegis:



With Bound Aegis:




61657- 57892 = 3765 extra max mag from slotting Bound Aegis

Build is Crafty/Wretched/1x Domi/1x Swarm/DDF and using Crushing Weapon for Major Breach to have Hurricane. CP is also included with 4 dmg CPs because we don't need defensive CP on magsorc.

These are the stats self buffed in CP:

Front bar:





Back bar (just gonna show the resistances):



Tooltips:





Can you tell me a class that has 28.3k HP, 61.6k max mag, 27.2k max stam, 1.7k mag recov, 1.9k stam recov, 30% crit rate, 64% crit dmg, 26k resists back bar and 1.8k crit resist?

How do you expect to kill this sorc unless he messes up? 61k max mag = 16k+ shields and 10-11k burst heal tooltip. 61k max mag + 27k max stam +1.7k mag recov + 1.9k stam recov = infinite sustain, and that's not mentioning Overload sustain. Minor Expedition and Streak with 3 medium to give unmatched mobility.

Please explain to me how you expect to kill this Sorc unless you severely outnumber him? Don't give me the "but he won't do as much damage" bull crap. I can promise you this spec has enough damage for 99% of encounters in PvP except for the very elite players.

What are melee players going to do? You can't gap close him reliably cause he got Streak + movement speed. Even if you do, he got a 16k ward + 11k burst heal underneath

I'm sorry but anybody defending this is literally being biased.

The only part of this long comment that was connected to what I said was quote "that top end 5.5k was just a number I pulled out randomly and didn't verify". Everything else is just some talking just to talk that is complety not related to the topic of my comment.

Bottom end 3.5k still achievable by slotting 1 skill.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

[snip]

Not a single word of this has anything to do with Ward or Sorcs.

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave

@Galeriano2

Are you going to address the fact that your reasoning for NB needing a nerf is exactly identical to my reasoning for nerfing Sorc, yet somehow Sorc gets a free pass because it’s “not dominating PvP”, despite you also saying that you “kill just as many NBs”?

So using your logic that NB making a new player better than others necessitates a nerf, Sorc making a new player better than others should also necessitate a nerf too yea? Because I have plenty of evidence from new players dominating the competition on their Sorc.

StaticWave

Galeriano saying this about NB:



Replace “NB” with “Sorc” and that’s exactly what I say about Sorc. Sorc is also the 2nd highest played class, with tons of newbs, but that doesn’t mean the class is weak. Bad players can still be deadly on Sorc if they stay from max range and spam Ward when they’re low.

Isn’t it weird how we both have THE SAME argument about 2 of the most overperforming classes, yet Galeriano seems to argue against my stance?

Alchimiste1

@Galeriano2 So it's been a while since the patch came out. Have you noticed magsorcs dominating now ?

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

stalemating fights,
It isn’t

DaisyRay wrote: »

If you can't kill a sorc because they have hardened ward, then you likely wouldn't be able to kill them without it

Have them swap to Dampen Ward to mimic pre-buffed Hardened Ward and see how much U41 Hardened Ward carries 🤣 As simple of a test as it can get lolol

Not a good test really due to the variation in size I'd think. It also depends on s

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

No data can be reliably be provided on either side in the area where it matters most, gvg.

Data provided from 1v1 isn't directly relevant because that's not how the game is balanced by ZOS. Only ZOS has the actual data needed to balance the game

Here are pieces of data that could actually help answer if ward is op. If anyone can provide this data please do.

We need to know the actual numbers on how many people are playing sorc and if it has leveled off or gotten larger over time since the ward change?

Of those playing sorc, what are the average mag pools, shield sizes, and heal sizes.

What is the TTK on sorc vs pre patch and vs TTK for other classes in gvg content.

What is the overall KD ratio for a sorc player with a large mag pool before and after patch.


Those are just general things and I'm sure there are more variables but the point is that a lot on here keep presenting cmx data or asking for data when there is really no significant valuable data available.


This thread should really only be populated with comments to the effect of either being pro, neutral, or against the change but not anyone trying to prove how the change is good or bad in relation to the intended audience with data.


I added the line about intended audience because yes 1v1 shows information but the game isn't balanced against that so it's not really helpful here.

[edited to remove quote]

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

Bad players can still be deadly on Sorc if they stay from max range and spam Ward when they’re low.

Especially with Curse burst being both unblockable and undodgeable (topic for another year), those PvE DD Sorcs trying to parse from the back lines are absolutely the first players I need to kill in an outnumbered scenario.

Adernath

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

So the changes look good from a statistical point of view. End of story.

Not quite the end. Please provide these statistics. Thank you.

Man... just log into the game and play PvP, then you see it. I don't need to make a science out of it or write a text-adventure fight on the forums like that guy who created the OP and who keeps his thread alive.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

No data can be reliably be provided on either side in the area where it matters most, gvg

Ward doing 2791 hps for open world DD MagSorc vs zerg, not a duel, from the wilds of Cyrodiil outside Aleswell FD

I've posted this multiple times, yes it's reproduceable, no I'm not paid enough to do a million of these when you can't even put up a single CMX yourself, show me any other single skill doing this on a DD versus the zerg.

xylena_lazarow

Adernath wrote: »

Man... just log into the game and play PvP, then you see it. I don't need to make a science out of it or write a text-adventure fight on the forums like that guy who created the OP and who keeps his thread alive.

I have reported ITT exactly what I see in PvP and provided statistics showing the numbers for what I saw. Don't want to make it a science? Ward is overpowered and destroys competitive class balance because the numbers are too big.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

stalemating fights,
It isn’t

DaisyRay wrote: »

If you can't kill a sorc because they have hardened ward, then you likely wouldn't be able to kill them without it

Have them swap to Dampen Ward to mimic pre-buffed Hardened Ward and see how much U41 Hardened Ward carries 🤣 As simple of a test as it can get lolol

Not a good test really due to the variation in size I'd think. It also depends on s

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

No data can be reliably be provided on either side in the area where it matters most, gvg.

Data provided from 1v1 isn't directly relevant because that's not how the game is balanced by ZOS. Only ZOS has the actual data needed to balance the game

Here are pieces of data that could actually help answer if ward is op. If anyone can provide this data please do.

We need to know the actual numbers on how many people are playing sorc and if it has leveled off or gotten larger over time since the ward change?

Of those playing sorc, what are the average mag pools, shield sizes, and heal sizes.

What is the TTK on sorc vs pre patch and vs TTK for other classes in gvg content.

What is the overall KD ratio for a sorc player with a large mag pool before and after patch.


Those are just general things and I'm sure there are more variables but the point is that a lot on here keep presenting cmx data or asking for data when there is really no significant valuable data available.


This thread should really only be populated with comments to the effect of either being pro, neutral, or against the change but not anyone trying to prove how the change is good or bad in relation to the intended audience with data.


I added the line about intended audience because yes 1v1 shows information but the game isn't balanced against that so it's not really helpful here.

1) Nah, with 55k+ max mag you get similar size on Dampen as old Ward

2) Here is @Zabagad ’s Cyrodiil Data using the leaderboard across all 4 campaigns:



U39 Sorc population: - 17.42%
U40 Sorc population - 18.69%
U41 Sorc population - 22%

A 3.31% increase in Sorc pop in U41 compared to U40. Coincidentally, DK pop dropped by 2.63%, suggesting a large migration from DK to Sorc.

This is only data for 1 cycle ( 1 month and 6 days) so we’ll have to wait until June to get the full picture.

As for your specific requests about builds, TTK, etc. i doubt we’re going to get anything as that requires setting up a large scale statistical analysis and quite frankly that is too much work lol

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave

Adernath wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

So the changes look good from a statistical point of view. End of story.

Not quite the end. Please provide these statistics. Thank you.

Man... just log into the game and play PvP, then you see it. I don't need to make a science out of it or write a text-adventure fight on the forums like that guy who created the OP and who keeps his thread alive.

What makes you think I don’t log into the game and play?

StaticWave

Adernath wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

So the changes look good from a statistical point of view. End of story.

Not quite the end. Please provide these statistics. Thank you.

Man... just log into the game and play PvP, then you see it. I don't need to make a science out of it or write a text-adventure fight on the forums like that guy who created the OP and who keeps his thread alive.

Also, forum PvP sometimes is unironically better than in-game PvP lol

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

Also, forum PvP sometimes is unironically better than in-game PvP lol

Without shame I can say that I've lately spent more time here than in-game, and more time in-game in zone chat than actually PvPing. After a decade of PvPing, I'm of the mind that PvChat is the real endgame.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bad players can still be deadly on Sorc if they stay from max range and spam Ward when they’re low.

Especially with Curse burst being both unblockable and undodgeable (topic for another year), those PvE DD Sorcs trying to parse from the back lines are absolutely the first players I need to kill in an outnumbered scenario.

There are multiple classes and setups that allow for bad players to both live longer and be deadly in a group.

Sorc has an amazing ranged toolkit but movement speed and other aspects of the game can either invalidate ranged damage or allow players to easily close the gap.

In a typical gvg scenario ranged damage has a lot more potential to be mitigated or even countered fairly easily.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

invalidate ranged damage

The meta was way better when this was actually true. Bring back old DK Wings.

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

invalidate ranged damage

The meta was way better when this was actually true. Bring back old DK Wings.

Would it even help with force pulse and status effect damage? Might be able to reflect a frag or bow proc

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Would it even help with force pulse and status effect damage? Might be able to reflect a frag or bow proc

Pretty sure original DK Wings weren't projectile capped, and nobody is dying to random status effects in isolation.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

invalidate ranged damage

The meta was way better when this was actually true. Bring back old DK Wings.

I mean it's still true in my opinion.

Templar can cleanse curse and heal through a good bit of ranged damage.
Arc can just shield and heal through a lot of it.
NB can disappear and close the gap then push back with high damage.
Warden has auto stun for ranged attacks.
DK can block tank and heal through ranged assaults.

These are just basic examples but as a sorc main I can say that players who play well don't have much trouble giving me a run for my money when we speak of me having the ranged advantage.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

These are just basic examples but as a sorc main I can say that players who play well don't have much trouble giving me a run for my money when we speak of me having the ranged advantage.

So stop dueling and start playing like this is GvG? Range lets you attack them from places they literally can't attack you. That's it, there's nothing else to it, and it's one of the most op military inventions in history.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

These are just basic examples but as a sorc main I can say that players who play well don't have much trouble giving me a run for my money when we speak of me having the ranged advantage.

So stop dueling and start playing like this is GvG? Range lets you attack them from places they literally can't attack you. That's it, there's nothing else to it, and it's one of the most op military inventions in history.

Range is very effective from a military standpoint but even in that scenario it can be countered. ESO is more like a sniper situation where yes the ranged attacker has the initiative and the initial advantage. But much like a sniper scenario if you can't kill the enemy quickly and then reveal your position you then have a series of problems you'll likely deal with.

So as a sorc I attack people from range all the time but movement speed is so free in the game they can easily block then pursue me, roll dodge towards me, even gap close me. Yes I have the option to move as well but then I have to give up my attack.

I've attacked every class in the game from range and better players always have a way to deal with me so that I either have to then engage them in a serious fight or retreat but I'm only really killing them if they were already at a disadvantage or were just not as good of a player as me.


Every single class has a way to survive a ranged assault from a sorc and then close the distance to said sorc, that's just a fact of the game.

xylena_lazarow

@Bushido2513 what would you rather have on the battlefield: knife or gun

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@Bushido2513 what would you rather have on the battlefield: knife or gun

Depends on the engagement. A knife gives you a better chance at stealth kills and never runs out of ammo. A gun will reveal my position to the enemy with every use and possibly bring more enemies who will have an easier time finding me each time I use the gun. With a knife and tactics I an probably acquire one or multiple guns without revealing my location until I'm ready.

So as a sorc yes you can drop long range attacks however you can then become the target of multiple attackers yourself. Yes you have shields and a great escape utility but good attackers can work around that by using things like movement speed, high damage attacks from stealth, raw damage with cc/roots, etc.

A sorc is for me no more or less of a threat than any of the other stronger classes. I mean even if I just don't want to deal with a sorc I'll just roll dodge to get rid of a few pieces of the combo then los, heal up, etc. And yes now they can heal up like ever before but so can other classes to for me it's no worse or better than what is already commonly seen in the game. Maybe a little better but by no means a clearly identifiable case that can be proved in the way some are representing here.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

A knife gives you a better chance at stealth kills and never runs out of ammo. A gun will reveal my position to the enemy with every use and possibly bring more enemies who will have an easier time finding me each time I use the gun. With a knife and tactics I an probably acquire one or multiple guns without revealing my location until I'm ready.

Dang, TIL Bushido is a Nightblade IRL. Very cool. Not me, I'm getting old and not as fit anymore, I'll take the gun.

But that's sorta my point, consider all the training, skill, fitness, and risk that goes into getting up close with a knife. The tiniest mistake, and all I have to do is point and click, and the IRL ninja is dead to a minimally trained IRL 40yo gamer. Now give the 40yo gamer the knife, and the ninja the gun, what do you think happens?

Iriidius

StaticWave wrote: »

A NB friend of mine also tried to duel that DK and this is what he has to say:




His HPS:


The DK’s DPS:



You legit need 10k HPS to actually survive the DK build. Even with 7k HPS you’re still gonna get parsed and eventually gas out. Sorc with Ward is the ONLY spec that can casually face tank that kind of damage.

As a friend of you who wants to proof that Ward is OP and other classes cant outheal 7k dps this NB probably wasn‘t really interested to proof that other classes can outheal 7k dps. This test should be done by someone who disagrees with you and actually wants to proof you wrong. We dont know what gear this player is wearing, but he doesn‘t wear malubeth like you or another healing set in the test and probably isnt build to outheal maximal dmg. Also his regeneration is very low. Still he has 6k hps which isnt so much lower than 7k.
Most of the DKs dmg is DoT dmg(unblockable and undodgeable) which favors Sorcerer because Hardened Ward shield doesnt have any blockmitigation anyway and any dodge cost reducing skills like blur(mirage/phantasmal escape). If the test was done against a nb with mostly blockable direct dmg skills and both classes used block/dodge, the result would probably look different because Sorc couldnt get block mitigation while shielded against NB direct dmg attacks, which wouldnt be a problem for nb not using shields and nb can dodge more.
Also despite beeing much tankier than it used to be and a class with so high dmg output should be nb is still not the most tanky class, especially not for facetanking as it is designed to evade dmg. A few other classes can probably outheal more dmg than nb, for example warden and arcanist.

StaticWave

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

A NB friend of mine also tried to duel that DK and this is what he has to say:




His HPS:


The DK’s DPS:



You legit need 10k HPS to actually survive the DK build. Even with 7k HPS you’re still gonna get parsed and eventually gas out. Sorc with Ward is the ONLY spec that can casually face tank that kind of damage.

As a friend of you who wants to proof that Ward is OP and other classes cant outheal 7k dps this NB probably wasn‘t really interested to proof that other classes can outheal 7k dps. This test should be done by someone who disagrees with you and actually wants to proof you wrong. We dont know what gear this player is wearing, but he doesn‘t wear malubeth like you or another healing set in the test and probably isnt build to outheal maximal dmg. Also his regeneration is very low. Still he has 6k hps which isnt so much lower than 7k.
Most of the DKs dmg is DoT dmg(unblockable and undodgeable) which favors Sorcerer because Hardened Ward shield doesnt have any blockmitigation anyway and any dodge cost reducing skills like blur(mirage/phantasmal escape). If the test was done against a nb with mostly blockable direct dmg skills and both classes used block/dodge, the result would probably look different because Sorc couldnt get block mitigation while shielded against NB direct dmg attacks, which wouldnt be a problem for nb not using shields and nb can dodge more.
Also despite beeing much tankier than it used to be and a class with so high dmg output should be nb is still not the most tanky class, especially not for facetanking as it is designed to evade dmg. A few other classes can probably outheal more dmg than nb, for example warden and arcanist.

He used Ozezan to have Minor Vitality on his NB.

I’m more than happy to be disproved by anyone here who disagrees with me. Unfortunately, the only person who actually stepped up to do the testing was @DaisyRay, and even he/she agreed that Ward needs an adjustment after the test.