Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I mean it does suck for duels I'll give you that. I think it sucks in general what ZOS has allowed to happen in duels. They just don't balance for that content so while it does suck there are v many other modes and views to consider.

Face tanking a 6k+ dps competitive dueler approximately translates to face tanking 6+ casuals in open world. Probably fine for a slow tanky brawler with relatively low damage, but face tanking multiples on a ranged nuke damage build that also has the best mobility in the game? Again. This is like giving Cloak to DK.

Players demand that their favorite class be able to do everything, then wonder where class identity went...

Well one that's generally how open world goes and a DK or Warden could easily wipe said group of casuals on the right build and with correct play and still tank them a bit if needed.

Also it's usually only six casuals for a short time before it becomes six casuals and two hard hitting NBs or a bomb, or just one equal skilled player in the mix.

Yes we will see sorc 1vx but I'm pretty sure it will be on the same level as other good classes in the same situation.


Also another alternative I was thinking about in a bg the other day. No matter what an even hallway decent warden with say sword and board ult shuts down sorc. Not saying people should play that way but just pointing out that the range nuke still has decent counters. Also the all too common off heals of even casuals would give sorc trouble.

It's certainly more durable but in open word it just seems comparable overall and I do stress overall, to other top tier classes

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

Templar:

Living dark, 10 seconds, grants Minor Sorcery, ticks every half second, grants ultimate, and slows targets

Extended Ritual, 30 second: PURGES, is a HoT, grants Minor mending, scales with lower health, grants teammates ultimate.

Rune, 20-25 seconds: provides major resolve (same as us using hurricane which we DO need to keep up...) but also provides sustain, DRASTICALLY increases healing done, provides minor mending, scales with lower health.

HotD: Grants sustain back, synergizes with Rune for insane burst heals, scales with lower health.

Sorcerer:

Hardened ward: Is a shield and small heal, offers NO other bonuses. THIS is the ability being complained about....

Crit Surge: OFFENSIVE heal and Major Sorcery, NO other bonuses

Bound Aegis: Minor resolve, minor protection, Max Magicka is a PASSIVE "active" ability

Not including magelight cuz it's available to all to use.

Hardened Ward offers no group bonuses, doesn't offer any major or minor buffs or debuff is just a flat reactive and proactive button. Doesn't supplement any other part of our kit. It's a stagnant ability. And they gave it a cheap bandaid buff to try to make it better.

You forgot this:

- Dark Deal: Grants Minor Berserk, Minor Force, and Minor Prophecy. Also heals for 8600 HP and restores 3.6k stam and 2.4k stam over 10s, which equates to 480 stam recovery

-Bound Aegis: You forgot the 40% block mitigation for 5 seconds, which makes Sorc the best blocking class in the game

Also, thanks for proving the point for me. Templar needs all those buffs and a cleanse just to tank 7k DPS, and that’s if it sits in Rune + Ritual. Sorc just slots 2 passives to boost damage and sustain, and can tank 9k DPS with 1 skill.

1 GCD vs 5 GCDs, you do the math.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Just the fact in a optimal setup its allowing sorcs to heal through 7-9k dps and still output a acceptable amount of damage in duels is insane static is right to point this out no other class can do this without going almost full tank

This is not accurate. No Sorc is healing through 7-9k damage AND putting out sustained high DPS.

We like to point out that Sorc is only using two active abilities to "heal" Ward and Crit Surge but we all know very well that crit surge and blood magic require you to be offensive to heal. So if you're taking THAT much damage you're recasting ward EVERY gcd because if you didn't you'd be dead. And I can speak to this very well because in the PTS I dueled players putting 5-6k DPS on me with Wardens taking advantage of the new status effect changes and asylum staff. I was abusing Max Magicka stacking to test it's strength and while I was able to tank that and still output something like 2500-3000 DPS, i was definitely unable to stay offensive long enough to kill them, and I lost every fight (I'm also not a top dueler so would like to put that out there). And I was significantly more defensive than offensive in every fight that I was dealing with that high of DPS (I was not using Rallying Cry or other meta sets).

So yeah I'm sure this new ward can tank 7-9k damage per second. But it's going to be done so by going defensive in the fight. Which every class can do....

The difference you are seeing is most other classes will block cast and dodge roll damage to mitigate. Which Sorcs of course do as well. But any block casted Ward is taking full damage (artificially increasing Opponents DPS when compared to another blocking class). And dodge rolling while more effective in a 1vX scenario has it's cons when using wards in a 1v1. If you're saying an average player is outputting 3500 DPS, it takes 4 seconds to break a ward. If you dodge roll you miss an attack GCD and you're increasing the chances your Ward expires over time versus from damage received which overall is wasted stamina for that defensive cycle.

At the end of the day yes Wards need to be adjusted. But there is so much about this defensive mechanic that is being overlooked. You can't look at it like traditional healing with a health pool. It's going to artificially absorb more damage because it's temporary and you want it to take damage.

Run the same damage rotation against a templar and a Sorc and the same rotation will do more damage to the Sorc. That's just how it is.

I can prove you wrong right now but I’m not gonna bother cause there’s no point.

Do you recognize the fact that shields take full damage when block casting versus health pools that take decreased damage when block casting? That isn't up for debate it's hard facts.

So how can you say that DPS number for attacks against shields and health are going to be the same? I get you want your side of things to be correct, but let's not ignore facts now...

The mechanic of a shield is to absorb damage not avoid the damage entirely. Plus with bastion added into the mix it's taking an additional 15% damage from the Non-damage oriented Red tree artificially increasing DPS done.

Like sorry but you're wrong. Shielded players are effected by a higher DPS than non shielded players. Numbers are Numbers.

Oh I know shield shows up different on CMX. So what? Remove 2k DPS from a 9k DPS fight to account for this and it’s still a Sorc tanking 7k DPS in a full damage build. And you conveniently ignore the fact that Sorc is doing that with 1 skill.

You know what? I’m getting tired of arguing vs people who just talk and don’t provide anything for their arguments. I’ve been posting clips and CMX. Now it’s your turn to prove your point. You guys argued that other classes can do the same right? Please hop on every other class, remove all HoTs, and only use a burst heal. Please go tank 7k DPS while in a full damage build for me, while still doing 3k+ DPS. If you can do that I will tell the mods to delete this thread.

Nobody can doubt your numbers, that's not in question here. Number are numbers but like I was getting at before these aren't the full story.

The problem with buying into your results is that you're testing a specific scenario and then announcing that as if it's the only way people will play the game.

Things these numbers don't tell me.

1. What percentage of players are running a build like or very similar to your test build?

Generally I'm game design it's an issue when you give the player base choices and they keep choosing a specific one. So over time if every sorc was running a build like this that's an issue

2. How many players are running this build well and seeing more kills than deaths?

A high success rate with this build or one very similar would feed into the issue of point 1

3. Are points 1 and 2 contributing to long term sorc overpopulation?

We expected a burst in sorc population with this change but if it sticks long term then that's an issue similar to the NB issue that has been part of the game for years now. Too many of any class is a great way to bore, annoy, etc players.


Then there's getting granular with asking these questions in various types of pvp

Questions above will affect how the problem does or doesn't show up in the following.

Dueling. 1v1
Bgs gvg
IC mixed
Cyro mixed

Small scale
Mid scale
Large scale

Then there's class comparison as a whole which is another thing altogether.

There more that I'm probably not thinking of but my point is that the data being presented is somewhat narrow when you consider the entire scope of PVP.

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

Templar:

Living dark, 10 seconds, grants Minor Sorcery, ticks every half second, grants ultimate, and slows targets

Extended Ritual, 30 second: PURGES, is a HoT, grants Minor mending, scales with lower health, grants teammates ultimate.

Rune, 20-25 seconds: provides major resolve (same as us using hurricane which we DO need to keep up...) but also provides sustain, DRASTICALLY increases healing done, provides minor mending, scales with lower health.

HotD: Grants sustain back, synergizes with Rune for insane burst heals, scales with lower health.

Sorcerer:

Hardened ward: Is a shield and small heal, offers NO other bonuses. THIS is the ability being complained about....

Crit Surge: OFFENSIVE heal and Major Sorcery, NO other bonuses

Bound Aegis: Minor resolve, minor protection, Max Magicka is a PASSIVE "active" ability

Not including magelight cuz it's available to all to use.

Hardened Ward offers no group bonuses, doesn't offer any major or minor buffs or debuff is just a flat reactive and proactive button. Doesn't supplement any other part of our kit. It's a stagnant ability. And they gave it a cheap bandaid buff to try to make it better.

You forgot this:

- Dark Deal: Grants Minor Berserk, Minor Force, and Minor Prophecy. Also heals for 8600 HP and restores 3.6k stam and 2.4k stam over 10s, which equates to 480 stam recovery

-Bound Aegis: You forgot the 40% block mitigation for 5 seconds, which makes Sorc the best blocking class in the game

Also, thanks for proving the point for me. Templar needs all those buffs and a cleanse just to tank 7k DPS, and that’s if it sits in Rune + Ritual. Sorc just slots 2 passives to boost damage and sustain, and can tank 9k DPS with 1 skill.

1 GCD vs 5 GCDs, you do the math.

We were talking about healing skills and...

Im under the impression dark deal/conversion is not being used to recover health anymore (from a Mag Sorc perspective) it has a cast time and ward heals now so I use dark conversion for sustain and minor berserk not as a burst heal as it would just lead to my death. And if we want to include it then add it to the list of GCDs required to keep up.

Bound Aegis, which is used on the opposite bar of your core defensive ability, ward is generally on your dual wield / lightning staff bar. You wouldn't want to be blocking on your non "burst heal" bar so You're just getting to the mitigation capabilities of s&b / Frost staff while being a huge stamina drain. Sure you can use the active for this ability but let's be real its not getting used, we ALL know that.

And yeah look at the versatility you get out of those 3 gcds (honestly only 1 more than what we would typically have active: hurricane and crit surge, but you want to count dark deal so same number!).

So from your statements...

Hurricane = Rune focus (20 seconds)
Extended Ritual = Crit Surge (30 seconds)
Living Dark = Dark deal (10 seconds)
Hardened Ward = HotD (proactive 6 seconds/ reactive) so you're going to spend additional gcds managing ward because it can expire and you don't have the HoTs to support it being down.

Vigor = Bound Aegis obviously these don't line up at all, one is an active one is a "passive"

So that's 1 LESS gcd...

NOT 1 GCDs V 5 GCDs, let's be realistic.

If you want to compare HotD spamming versus Hardened Ward spamming it's never going to line up because HotD has synergies with the class as a whole versus being a stagnant ability and recovers health that doesn't expire and can be block cast for full advantage of mitigation.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

We were talking about healing skills and...

Im under the impression dark deal/conversion is not being used to recover health anymore (from a Mag Sorc perspective) it has a cast time and ward heals now so I use dark conversion for sustain and minor berserk not as a burst heal as it would just lead to my death. And if we want to include it then add it to the list of GCDs required to keep up.

It's still a heal and can be used under a shield while having CC immunity.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Bound Aegis, which is used on the opposite bar of your core defensive ability, ward is generally on your dual wield / lightning staff bar. You wouldn't want to be blocking on your non "burst heal" bar so You're just getting to the mitigation capabilities of s&b / Frost staff while being a huge stamina drain. Sure you can use the active for this ability but let's be real its not getting used, we ALL know that.

Yes, most people don't use Bound Aegis actively, but some builds might, like Resto back bar because of this passive:

"Absorb: Restores 600 Magicka whenever you block an attack. This effect can occur once every .25 seconds."

Obviously you'll do less damage, but you'll be a lot tankier, and you'll have some group utility as well with Radiating Regen and Resto ulti back bar.

Jsmalls wrote: »

And yeah look at the versatility you get out of those 3 gcds (honestly only 1 more than what we would typically have active: hurricane and crit surge, but you want to count dark deal so same number!).

So from your statements...

Hurricane = Rune focus (20 seconds)
Extended Ritual = Crit Surge (30 seconds)
Living Dark = Dark deal (10 seconds)
Hardened Ward = HotD (proactive 6 seconds/ reactive) so you're going to spend additional gcds managing ward because it can expire and you don't have the HoTs to support it being down.

Vigor = Bound Aegis obviously these don't line up at all, one is an active one is a "passive"

So that's 1 LESS gcd...

NOT 1 GCDs V 5 GCDs, let's be realistic.

Lol, so you just added Hurricane in for no reason other than to prove your point? I'm pretty sure most magSorcs run Chudan to free up a slot. Typical bar space for a magSorc would look like this:

Front bar: Crushing Shock, Crystal Fragment, Streak, Hardened Ward, Inner Light
Back bar: Curse, Dark Deal, Bound Aegis, Elemental Susceptibility, Crit Surge

So the ACTUAL comparison would look like this:

Templar vs Sorc:

Extended Ritual = Crit Surge
Living Dark = Dark Deal
HoTD = Hardened Ward
Vigor = N/A
Rune Focus = N/A

I'll leave out Bound Aegis because I agree with you that most builds don't use the active part of the skill. So that's 3 GCD for the Sorc vs 5 for the Templar because the Sorc doesn't use Vigor or Hurricane.

Here's the part I've been trying to explain for many people: 5 skills on Templar allow the class to tank 6-7k DPS. 3 skills on Sorc allow the class to tank 6-7k DPS, 1 of which is mainly used for the Minor buffs (Dark Deal). So if we're going to compare DEFENSIVE skills, it's this:

Hardened Ward + Crit Surge vs HoTD + Extended Ritual + Vigor + Rune Focus + Living Dark

You could argue that Hardened Ward can tank so much DPS because of slotting Inner Light and Bound Aegis, to which I will agree, but Hardened Ward is literally carrying Sorc's defense, and it's not hard to see why when we break it down.

And to further support my argument, I challenge you to drop Vigor, Extended Ritual, and Rune Focus, slot Chudan to get Major Resolve, then also slot Camo Hunter + anything else that can mimic Inner Light + Bound Aegis, and tank 6-7k DPS with just HoTD and Living Dark while in a full damage build and also do 3k+ DPS back.

If you can complete that challenge, then your comparison and argument is valid. Otherwise, everything you've said is a biased argument to defend Ward's broken state.

IncultaWolf

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Pelanora

Complaining sorc is op. After all this time complaining about neglect. Sorcs never going to live this down.

Bushido2513

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Well a newly buffed class will lead to packs of said class, that's very true. But are you saying siege, bombs, negates, DC, no longer work against these builds? Because if I think of unkillable, that's unkillable?

I mean, you could have a group of wardens or one group with two good healers and you're not really killing them.

Not trying to discount your report but just adding some perspective.


In regards to face tanking good players with one button so am I to understand that you were able to just stand one place and have 4 to 8 good players attack you while not having to move and just pressing one button?

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Well a newly buffed class will lead to packs of said class, that's very true. But are you saying siege, bombs, negates, DC, no longer work against these builds? Because if I think of unkillable, that's unkillable?

I mean, you could have a group of wardens or one group with two good healers and you're not really killing them.

Not trying to discount your report but just adding some perspective.


In regards to face tanking good players with one button so am I to understand that you were able to just stand one place and have 4 to 8 good players attack you while not having to move and just pressing one button?

Why do you think Nibenay monster set gives a 15k shield that’s unaffected by battle spirit when you are displaced by DC, Rush of Agony, or Leap?

Why do you think Left-hander’s belt is so effective vs Fire Ballistas?

Both of have 1 thing in common and that’s a fat shield for defense. Now add a 9k burst heal tooltip underneath and you got yourself a nigh-unkillable class. I really shouldn’t have to explain this any further lol.

And btw, if it requires Negate, a 190 cost ultimate, and bombs, a coordinated ult dump involving multiple skills, to counter 1 skill that’s spammable, then there is a clear balance issue here.

xylena_lazarow

Pelanora wrote: »

Complaining sorc is op. After all this time complaining about neglect.

The only thing it needed was class major crit. Nobody asked for them to do this to Ward.

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

I mean to say Chudan is run instead of Hurricane has NO implications on the balance of the class.... Other than to say most find the ability to be lack luster enough to get rid of it. It's really just a way to get the GCD count lower for your argument (I recognize that it's a popular setup, I just don't think set choice should have a factor in skill balance to that extent...)

But you understand well enough the sacrifice being made to run Chudan with all the potential sets / bonuses available in that place.

You can take your suggested skill choice and change it to...

Front bar: Crushing Weapon, Crystal Fragment, Streak, Hardened Ward, Inner Light
Back bar: Curse, Dark Deal, Bound Aegis, Hurricane, Crit Surge

And replace Chudan with all the same functionality and being able to run a different monster set. This would be more comparable, disregarding item set choice. And once again Hurricane is added because Rune is included and the CORE function of Rune is Major Resolve...

So once again we're back to 4 GCDs compared to 5 GCDs with 2 passive abilities slotted to boost hardened ward (I recognize they also boost damage considerably but no more than two additional DoTs would)

I don't think Dark Deal/Dark conversion would be included in this mix for the heal factor, but I do think it should be included for the sustain factor (comparable to standing in rune focus) as well as Minor Force which is helping Crit Surge and the heal from Hardened Ward.

As for HotD vs Hardened Ward: I don't think Hardened Ward and HotD can even be in the same realm of comparison considering one creates "health" that expires, can't be block cast mitigated, and benefits less from crit chance / healing bonus (critting a 4k heal gives a lot less than critting a HotD).

That being said I recognize that Hardened Ward is more consistent due to the fact it's not based on crits. And I also recognize that spamming Hardened Ward gives a significantly higher "health threshold" for each cast. But once again balance wise the threshold value has to be higher due to it expiring and not being effected by block mitigation.

I think you forget that I agree the ability is Overtuned and needs adjustment. I just don't agree with your statements of Sorcs are running around using one ability to mitigate 9k DPS while outputting 4k DPS because that's just not accurate.

And Hardened Ward did need an adjustment from Update 40. It offered no distinct differences from Dampen Magic (other than reduced cost) and NO one runs that ability which speaks volumes.

Aces-High-82

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Do you have some footage showing face tanking multiple good players?

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Well a newly buffed class will lead to packs of said class, that's very true. But are you saying siege, bombs, negates, DC, no longer work against these builds? Because if I think of unkillable, that's unkillable?

I mean, you could have a group of wardens or one group with two good healers and you're not really killing them.

Not trying to discount your report but just adding some perspective.


In regards to face tanking good players with one button so am I to understand that you were able to just stand one place and have 4 to 8 good players attack you while not having to move and just pressing one button?

Why do you think Nibenay monster set gives a 15k shield that’s unaffected by battle spirit when you are displaced by DC, Rush of Agony, or Leap?

Why do you think Left-hander’s belt is so effective vs Fire Ballistas?

Both of have 1 thing in common and that’s a fat shield for defense. Now add a 9k burst heal tooltip underneath and you got yourself a nigh-unkillable class. I really shouldn’t have to explain this any further lol.

And btw, if it requires Negate, a 190 cost ultimate, and bombs, a coordinated ult dump involving multiple skills, to counter 1 skill that’s spammable, then there is a clear balance issue here.

Again it's not one skill. Please show me the video where a sorc is tanking people just spamming ward and not moving, roll dodging, streaking, etc.

Any class can run away from or avoid damage and I've already conceded that ward can be problematic in the 1v1 but that's not what the game is balanced around.

What I shouldn't have to explain to you is that the game is focused on group play so you can spam ward as much as you want and eventually you'll just get ganged up on or maybe get a 1vx but either way you won't go too long on open world just face tanking damage without having to move around defensively against a group.

Tank and spank has been in the game wayyyyy before sorc got this buff and people handle it the same way every time, just gang up on said player or pass them by.

The game didn't used to be that way but now everyone is so defensive you pretty much need multiples to kill something other than a potato, either that or it's going to be a long drawn out fight that might end in stalemate.


So let me ask you this, why do I care if I can't kill that sorc and that sorc can't kill me in open world when I can just group up and kill said sorc or go to a larger battle and just try to kill them when they are taking other damage?

By the way I'm not saying I often use these tactics. Most of the time I roll solo and just see who I can take down be they grouped or solo but when I do come to a harder target I just either move on or jump into an opportunity if one presents.

One of your biggest arguments is that it's being done with one skill and that they have damage but I'd ask does it really matter so long as they can be killed and still have to work to kill others?


I mean get a healer on the other side and your shields and damage will just sit there. This is a common scenario. I know I know focus on sorc though. Let's not act like there aren't a lot of people that can be on a non sorc class and defend themselves easily while just using team play to kill or run off said sorc.

I've already given you that 1v1 is messed up but the game is currently focused on gvg and in gvg sorcs can and will die.

Even pre patch I've already seen people changing up tactics to handle sorc. Saw a guy spamming roots which isn't completely new at all but a great way to mess up a sorc since we don't commonly use snare removal. And wardens are just naturally anti sorc kit so expect to see that.

My point is before we cry op I'd like to see how players adjust to this over more than just the course of a week or so.

StaticWave

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Do you have some footage showing face tanking multiple good players?

I’m sure he could get one. While we’re at that, why don’t we get footage showing other classes face tanking multiple good players in a build with sub 30k HP, almost full damage and less than 25k resistances?

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Do you have some footage showing face tanking multiple good players?

I’m sure he could get one. While we’re at that, why don’t we get footage showing other classes face tanking multiple good players in a build with sub 30k HP, almost full damage and less than 25k resistances?

Because nobody is claiming that other classes can do this.

This person made a claim so asking for a video is something that could be expected. They may not be able to produce one but asking doesn't seem like a stretch.

People keep stating a very specific scenario that we have yet to see a video of to better understand because "face tank" and "good players" aren't universal terms in this game.

Someone can say face tank and mean they took a few more hits than usual that they "felt" would normally kill them then streaked away or roll dodged and healed up.

A video will show actual numbers of damage being negated and exactly how it was done and not how op someone "felt"

People have a way of seeing things how they want to see them but unedited video is a much better tool for understanding.

IncultaWolf

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Do you have some footage showing face tanking multiple good players?

Yeah, let me get some footage for you

Aces-High-82

If 3 ppl cant kill a sorc they

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Do you have some footage showing face tanking multiple good players?

I’m sure he could get one. While we’re at that, why don’t we get footage showing other classes face tanking multiple good players in a build with sub 30k HP, almost full damage and less than 25k resistances?

Bc maybe its not possible with such build....nor is with sorc rn?!
You can stalemate forever vs a very good player now on sorc (no los/kiting by both)....but against two or even more .... good luck with that.
Its not uncomon to stack 8k weapon damage on DK eg and then activate unlimited pen to stomp anybody that tries to “facetank" that damage besides a dedicated tank/healer build.
But oh NO! Sorc stacks 60k mag now...super OP! nerf111
Show some footage that proves how broken stacking mag now is bc all I experienced since the patch launched contradicts it.

Aces-High-82

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Do you have some footage showing face tanking multiple good players?

Yeah, let me get some footage for you

No offense but If you couldn't figure out an effective build by yourself I may wonder how qualifiyed such statements are.

Bushido2513

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Do you have some footage showing face tanking multiple good players?

Yeah, let me get some footage for you

No offense but If you couldn't figure out an effective build by yourself I may wonder how qualifiyed such statements are.

Well this person said they don't play sorc on the regular so it's not a huge leap that they might ask for advice from someone that's heavily testing and more experienced.

Qualified to make statements is just a stretch anyways. Even the most seasons player can be guilty of remembering things a certain way or of bias.

I remember one day I killed 4 players in a row in no time flat. I thought maybe I had discovered a new build combo, reviewed the vid and they were mostly low CP. But had I not looked I could have easily just assumed I was op and that my build was amazing.

That's why video is so key!

IncultaWolf

Okay, only took a couple battlegrounds to get a funny clip of me standing still spamming hardened ward and face tanking multiple ultimates before rolling away and popping a potion, streaking, and moving on with the match.

This is a high mmr battleground, no CP enabled, with multiple good 5 star rank pvpers parsing on me. I don't have vigor, or any heals other than hardened ward here, and I have less than 30k hp. What other class can do this? It's pretty silly. Corrosive dragonknights? Naah not even a threat anymore just press the button and sit there and laugh. Reminder that I don't even play sorcerer that much and this is an argonian lol. I also have really high damage and constantly get the highest kdr in my matches.

https://youtu.be/zPcrUAdJ1nQ?si=T95y_rIeazzkDQ8_

Bushido2513

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Okay, only took a couple battlegrounds to get a funny clip of me standing still spamming hardened ward and face tanking multiple ultimates before rolling away and popping a potion, streaking, and moving on with the match.

This is a high mmr battleground, no CP enabled, with multiple good 5 star rank pvpers parsing on me. I don't have vigor, or any heals other than hardened ward here, and I have less than 30k hp. What other class can do this? It's pretty silly. Corrosive dragonknights? Naah not even a threat anymore just press the button and sit there and laugh. Reminder that I don't even play sorcerer that much and this is an argonian lol. I also have really high damage and constantly get the highest kdr in my matches.

https://youtu.be/zPcrUAdJ1nQ?si=T95y_rIeazzkDQ8_

Yeah sorry that's not much of anything. I saw some execute spam, some heavy attacks, and people ignoring you. Once they dropped ult you immediately started to feel the heat and had to get out of there. Had you stood there and spammed shield you would have died .

I wouldn't really call this face tanking or at least not to a degree that anyone should be worried. Nobody denies the ward is strong and you lived longer than you would have before the patch but there was going to be no issue in killing you if you didn't move away and los then heal. That's pretty much the game for most classes.

Now I could be reading this wrong and I'm sure others will chime in but yeah this doesn't make me worry much at all.

IncultaWolf

Bushido2513 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Okay, only took a couple battlegrounds to get a funny clip of me standing still spamming hardened ward and face tanking multiple ultimates before rolling away and popping a potion, streaking, and moving on with the match.

This is a high mmr battleground, no CP enabled, with multiple good 5 star rank pvpers parsing on me. I don't have vigor, or any heals other than hardened ward here, and I have less than 30k hp. What other class can do this? It's pretty silly. Corrosive dragonknights? Naah not even a threat anymore just press the button and sit there and laugh. Reminder that I don't even play sorcerer that much and this is an argonian lol. I also have really high damage and constantly get the highest kdr in my matches.

https://youtu.be/zPcrUAdJ1nQ?si=T95y_rIeazzkDQ8_

Yeah sorry that's not much of anything. I saw some execute spam, some heavy attacks, and people ignoring you. Once they dropped ult you immediately started to feel the heat and had to get out of there. Had you stood there and spammed shield you would have died .

I wouldn't really call this face tanking or at least not to a degree that anyone should be worried. Nobody denies the ward is strong and you lived longer than you would have before the patch but there was going to be no issue in killing you if you didn't move away and los then heal. That's pretty much the game for most classes.

Now I could be reading this wrong and I'm sure others will chime in but yeah this doesn't make me worry much at all.

I probably could have kept spamming ward and been fine, I absorbed 3 different ults in that clip with one ability. I just saw the ult dump, survived, then decided that was enough for the clip because all I was doing was pressing one button. And yes it is facetanking, literally what is happening in that video with 29k hp and 20k resists. I dueled a dragonknight in corrosive and I just pressed ward until their ult ended. How is that balanced? The only way to die is forget to press ward every 6 seconds or get zerged down, which is almost impossible because of streak. I wish my necromancer could be this tanky with 2 damage sets and all points into magicka. It's just poor balance imo.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Do you have some footage showing face tanking multiple good players?

I’m sure he could get one. While we’re at that, why don’t we get footage showing other classes face tanking multiple good players in a build with sub 30k HP, almost full damage and less than 25k resistances?

Because nobody is claiming that other classes can do this.

This person made a claim so asking for a video is something that could be expected. They may not be able to produce one but asking doesn't seem like a stretch.

People keep stating a very specific scenario that we have yet to see a video of to better understand because "face tank" and "good players" aren't universal terms in this game.

Someone can say face tank and mean they took a few more hits than usual that they "felt" would normally kill them then streaked away or roll dodged and healed up.

A video will show actual numbers of damage being negated and exactly how it was done and not how op someone "felt"

People have a way of seeing things how they want to see them but unedited video is a much better tool for understanding.

Uh I’m sure you and many people defending Ward have been claiming that “other classes can do it too”.

That’s literally all your argument is about. So far the only concrete evidence have come from me and @IncultaWolf. So why don’t you do the same and post clips of other classes tanking multiple ppl in a full damage build with less than 30k HP and 25k resists. Oh btw do you wonder why there’s a specific HP and armor restriction? That’s because magsorc can tank with those numbers lol.

HowlKimchi

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Do you have some footage showing face tanking multiple good players?

I’m sure he could get one. While we’re at that, why don’t we get footage showing other classes face tanking multiple good players in a build with sub 30k HP, almost full damage and less than 25k resistances?

Because nobody is claiming that other classes can do this.

This person made a claim so asking for a video is something that could be expected. They may not be able to produce one but asking doesn't seem like a stretch.

People keep stating a very specific scenario that we have yet to see a video of to better understand because "face tank" and "good players" aren't universal terms in this game.

Someone can say face tank and mean they took a few more hits than usual that they "felt" would normally kill them then streaked away or roll dodged and healed up.

A video will show actual numbers of damage being negated and exactly how it was done and not how op someone "felt"

People have a way of seeing things how they want to see them but unedited video is a much better tool for understanding.

Uh I’m sure you and many people defending Ward have been claiming that “other classes can do it too”.

That’s literally all your argument is about. So far the only concrete evidence have come from me and @IncultaWolf. So why don’t you do the same and post clips of other classes tanking multiple ppl in a full damage build with less than 30k HP and 25k resists. Oh btw do you wonder why there’s a specific HP and armor restriction? That’s because magsorc can tank with those numbers lol.

I gotta say, I commend you for continuing this discussion with Bushido who keeps moving the goalpost and has long statements but actually has little substance. Meanwhile you've been concise the whole time. A bit aggressive, but at least you have direct to the point statements.

I also have to give props to Bushido for also being firm in his stance that... well im not actually sure what it is now, but still. Very persistent!

Bushido2513

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I probably could have kept spamming ward and been fine.

You were out of stam an fairly low on magic, the next cc without getting out of there would have likely gotten you killed. I believed you had already popped your potion and it was on cooldown so that wouldn't have been there to save you.

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I absorbed 3 different ults in that clip with one ability. I just saw the ult dump, survived, then decided that was enough for the clip because all I was doing was pressing one button.

As I said above, staying any longer would likely have resulted in your death. Pressing one button and taking a potion on an argonian no? Passive helped a lot on that one I'm thinking.

IncultaWolf wrote: »

And yes it is facetanking, literally what is happening in that video with 29k hp and 20k resists.

Well everyone's definition is going to be different. I get what you're saying but for me it wasn't all that interesting. I was more so looking to see you sail through those ults and be ready for two more after those or take an incap and bow after them and not move. I know that's a lot but that's my point, that's about what it would take for me to be like wow this is a bit much. Again I'm not saying ward didn't get buffed, just that this is far from unkillable or the one button wonder people make it out to be, at least for me.

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I dueled a dragonknight in corrosive and I just pressed ward until their ult ended. How is that balanced?

Well I'll say it till someone hears it lol, the game is not balance around 1v1, it just isn't. The game is balanced for group v group and what your video did show is that likely if everyone did gang up on you that they would have been able to kill you without much issue. Well not much more issue than it takes for other classes and yes I get that the big thing here is but Bushido it's one button, I get it lol.

IncultaWolf wrote: »

The only way to die is forget to press ward every 6 seconds or get zerged down, which is almost impossible because of streak. I wish my necromancer could be this tanky with 2 damage sets and all points into magicka. It's just poor balance imo.

It's definitely not impossible to get zerged down with streak and if you think so then that tells me you and I aren't dealing with the same kind of opponents most likely because streak is easily and I mean easily mitigated by all of the free movement speed and just specking into movement speed just a bit which most can do with little damage loss.

The game does suffer from balance issues I'll give you that for sure no question. I think the point is that with all of the imbalance this particular thing isn't likely as unbalanced as it may seem but I think time will tell on that one.


Also as for saying the only way to die, well like I said above, you were likely about to die, yes it takes more damage than before the patch but that's to be expected. But if you think that build is unkillable I'd say play it a while longer and maybe go out and get some 1vxs since as you're putting it, you can't die and are in damage sets. I'd be curious to see how your can't die feeling holds up when it's just you solo. And I'm not saying you couldn't do it or even trying to challenge you. I just think the build might surprise you as to how sturdy it is or isn't in various scenarios.

In any case thanks for taking time out to add the content.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

There are entire groups of unkillable 28k hp magsorcs running around IC and Cyrodiil right now, don't tell me hardened ward is balanced. I tried out a sorcerer build @StaticWave helped me with at the start of this patch, I usually play necro, but on this class I rarely play I am face tanking multiple good players in battlegrounds and I don't have vigor, the only heals I have are hardened ward and crit surge. The only way they die is if they somehow forget to press the button every 6 seconds.

Do you have some footage showing face tanking multiple good players?

I’m sure he could get one. While we’re at that, why don’t we get footage showing other classes face tanking multiple good players in a build with sub 30k HP, almost full damage and less than 25k resistances?

Because nobody is claiming that other classes can do this.

This person made a claim so asking for a video is something that could be expected. They may not be able to produce one but asking doesn't seem like a stretch.

People keep stating a very specific scenario that we have yet to see a video of to better understand because "face tank" and "good players" aren't universal terms in this game.

Someone can say face tank and mean they took a few more hits than usual that they "felt" would normally kill them then streaked away or roll dodged and healed up.

A video will show actual numbers of damage being negated and exactly how it was done and not how op someone "felt"

People have a way of seeing things how they want to see them but unedited video is a much better tool for understanding.

Uh I’m sure you and many people defending Ward have been claiming that “other classes can do it too”.

That’s literally all your argument is about. So far the only concrete evidence have come from me and @IncultaWolf. So why don’t you do the same and post clips of other classes tanking multiple ppl in a full damage build with less than 30k HP and 25k resists. Oh btw do you wonder why there’s a specific HP and armor restriction? That’s because magsorc can tank with those numbers lol.

Actually my argument is that the outcome would be the same. I've been very clear that how they get there is different but that you could fight someone and have just as hard a time killing them while they still have reasonable damage.

So far I haven't seen anyone post a video of this sorc doing anything special other than in the 1v1 but even in the bg clip we just saw I posted my reasons why that player would have died at the end had they not moved away. Yes it was a bit of work to drop their health down but we also don't know those players or their builds and I would reason that in different settings the death would range from not at all to much much quicker. But that's why I say it needs to be observed over time.


I'm not arguing that sorc isn't much stronger now. I'm just saying nothing I've seen so far has shocked me into wanting to take a break from the game, write a letter to ZOS, etc. I guess if this is rubs anyone the wrong way I can respect that but for me I can definitely give this some time to see how it goes.

RomanRex

I am a sorc main with high MMR. Was in Chaosball BG group earlier today with IncultaWolf, but he dropped from team just a few minutes in and didn’t finish the match. That is to say, I see the same matches he does and don’t see what people are complaining about at all.

I don’t find a 10 second clip to be “proof”. Need to see the context of the whole match and how the sorcs on the field actually stacked up to everyone else not just in one clip of engagement.

I would provide “proof” but you can’t prove the negative, unless dying periodically despite using ward is the proof. This is a wonderful and welcomed change for non-pet sorcs!

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

I am a sorc main with high MMR. Was in Chaosball BG group earlier today with IncultaWolf, but he dropped from team just a few minutes in and didn’t finish the match. That is to say, I see the same matches he does and don’t see what people are complaining about at all.

I don’t find a 10 second clip to be “proof”. Need to see the context of the whole match and how the sorcs on the field actually stacked up to everyone else not just in one clip of engagement.

I would provide “proof” but you can’t prove the negative, unless dying periodically despite using ward is the proof. This is a wonderful and welcomed change for non-pet sorcs!

@IncultaWolf has sent me multiple screenshots of his magsorc getting top kills in BG games. Here you go, date of conversation included:

https://youtu.be/kfs4UtryjVo

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Actually my argument is that the outcome would be the same. I've been very clear that how they get there is different but that you could fight someone and have just as hard a time killing them while they still have reasonable damage.

So you are telling me that the outcome would be the same if other classes also run a build with <25k resistances, <30k HP, and only use 1 burst heal + 1 occasional HoT? Yea right

StaticWave

HowlKimchi wrote: »

I gotta say, I commend you for continuing this discussion with Bushido who keeps moving the goalpost and has long statements but actually has little substance. Meanwhile you've been concise the whole time. A bit aggressive, but at least you have direct to the point statements.

Here's what it went, chronologically:

- I and several people raised concern about Ward overperforming 1st day on PTS ===> Bushido and other guys disagreed.
- Patch dropped and people who didn't participate in PTS also agreed Ward overperforms ===> Bushido and other guys still disagreed because "people are still excited about the meta and overreact".
- I posted clips and screenshots of Sorc tanking 6-9k DPS in a full damage build with 1 unreliable HoT and Ward ===> Bushido and other guys disagreed, saying "other classes can do it too" and "the game isn't balanced around 1v1s".
- There are people who commented on this thread saying they tried Sorc for the first time or dusted off the class, took it to Cyrodiil and did really well with it ===> Bushido and other guys said "other classes can do it too"
- I asked for evidence to prove other classes can do the same, with the same resistances, same amount of healing ===> Nothing from them, but they keep arguing.

All of that arguing, while almost none of them haven't participated in a single PTS cycle. It almost seems like people who didn't participate shouldn't have an opinion on how a skill is or is not overperforming....