ZOS plans concerning BALL GROUPS?

Four_Fingers

Nerfing healing would nerf healing for all so you are back to square one.
We would just self heal within the group, no biggie.

CrazyKitty

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Nerfing healing would nerf healing for all so you are back to square one.
We would just self heal within the group, no biggie.

Don't most MMO's just put a cap on heal stacking? So players can only have one instance of a certain healing ability on them at any given time.

Four_Fingers

Negate shuts down healers and learning to recognize the healers in a group and targeting them is how it supposed to be done. But most want to run around in mindless 40K health tanky zergs and complain about organized groups.

TechMaybeHic

The arguments on this thread are ridiculous both ways. ZOS has not responded because they have no plans for ball groups. Doubt they do for PvP or even combat in general at this point.

Reverb

If you nerf cross healing that just means that fewer group members will need to slot heals and it will be an all out damage and mobility ball. No matter what the changes, groups invested in highly coordinated group play will adapt.

IZZEFlameLash

Reverb wrote: »

If you nerf cross healing that just means that fewer group members will need to slot heals and it will be an all out damage and mobility ball. No matter what the changes, groups invested in highly coordinated group play will adapt.

This is what I've been trying to get at. ZOS can nerf all the sets to be working only at non-group and people coordinated still will be far more powerful than any solo players. There's literally nothing realistic ZOS can do without potentially breaking the game for everyone.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Negate shuts down healers and learning to recognize the healers in a group and targeting them is how it supposed to be done. But most want to run around in mindless 40K health tanky zergs and complain about organized groups.

That's not true, The majority of healing comes from sticky HoT's which aren't removed via negate (Healing Springs meta negate was actually impactful because it removed the stacks and so healing was dramatically lower until stacks could be rebuilt outside of the negate)

Additionally every build can burst heal and the majority of DD's being stam wardens that burst healing is via a stam skill so negate doesn't affect it.

This is why changing healing and damage to not scale on the same stats would make those 'dd' specs less effective at burst healing.

unfortunately the Hybridization is to blame for most of these issues along with poor 'counter' tools due to the move away from ground HoT healing.

Essentially if ZOS wanted to reduce a groups power they would need to

1) Make sets affect less players within the group (ideally make a group management tool so that we can create sub groups of sets similar to games such as WoW where you want for example a Shaman in the melee group because they benefit from that buff vs other classes in other groups etc)
2) After doing 1 increase group size to 24 to encourage 'zerg' pug groups again
3) Scale healing and damage from different stats (ideally max resource scaling for heals and spell/weapon dmg scaling for dmg).
4) Revert the 'Sticky HoT' meta for healing and return to stacked ground based heals or add in an ulti which can remove sticky heals from players.
5) Add CC immunity and a short stun to Rush of Agony (this is just for balance reasons lol)

TechMaybeHic

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Negate shuts down healers and learning to recognize the healers in a group and targeting them is how it supposed to be done. But most want to run around in mindless 40K health tanky zergs and complain about organized groups.

That's not true, The majority of healing comes from sticky HoT's which aren't removed via negate (Healing Springs meta negate was actually impactful because it removed the stacks and so healing was dramatically lower until stacks could be rebuilt outside of the negate)

Additionally every build can burst heal and the majority of DD's being stam wardens that burst healing is via a stam skill so negate doesn't affect it.

This is why changing healing and damage to not scale on the same stats would make those 'dd' specs less effective at burst healing.

unfortunately the Hybridization is to blame for most of these issues along with poor 'counter' tools due to the move away from ground HoT healing.

Essentially if ZOS wanted to reduce a groups power they would need to

1) Make sets affect less players within the group (ideally make a group management tool so that we can create sub groups of sets similar to games such as WoW where you want for example a Shaman in the melee group because they benefit from that buff vs other classes in other groups etc)
2) After doing 1 increase group size to 24 to encourage 'zerg' pug groups again
3) Scale healing and damage from different stats (ideally max resource scaling for heals and spell/weapon dmg scaling for dmg).
4) Revert the 'Sticky HoT' meta for healing and return to stacked ground based heals or add in an ulti which can remove sticky heals from players.
5) Add CC immunity and a short stun to Rush of Agony (this is just for balance reasons lol)

All good ideas except for heal scaling. That would again; hurt solos/small man and PUGs who may not have dedicated healers.

Joy_Division

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

increase group size to 24 to encourage 'zerg' pug groups again

They probably should do this regardless. 12 person PuG groups are useless and the more organized groups can barely get 12 now as it is.

Holycannoli

Reverb wrote: »

If you nerf cross healing that just means that fewer group members will need to slot heals and it will be an all out damage and mobility ball. No matter what the changes, groups invested in highly coordinated group play will adapt.

Cross healing is a problem but so is stacked healing. They both need to be fixed.

There was a patch about four years ago (I think update 23) that increased damage almost across the board including DoTs. People were dying left and right. It was a fun time but nerfed not long after, I guess because a few loud mouths were complaining that they could actually be killed. This current tanky healing meta is out of hand and I personally prefer a less tanky, more damaging meta like in summer 2019 where people can actually be killed. I mean it's not like we lose anything when we die. We just respawn and continue on.

Fix the cross and stacked healing and ball groups can still do crazy damage but can also be killed. That is what is needed.

They've been trying to combat this problem via sets but they haven't worked.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

increase group size to 24 to encourage 'zerg' pug groups again

They probably should do this regardless. 12 person PuG groups are useless and the more organized groups can barely get 12 now as it is.

If that's the case with groups on NA it's likely because the group meta is very boring right now. Pull in to stack, bomb with stamdens. Its some of the most stale gameplay following the years of stale synergy gameplay - at least you had to make people stack back then though.
Simply increasing group numbers wouldn't really make it 'more interesting' they need to make the other changes to address the issues in combination with this.

cptfrog

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

With all do respect they have buffed them continuously for most of the game's life. To expect anything else is foolish. Do as they want: play in a ball group or leave.

I actually have come to the same conclusion.

The only exception is "ball group" playstyle. ZOS kept buffing them over the years (sometimes indirectly) and arguably they never received a single nerf that would target only that playstyle. One might argue that reducing group size was a nerf, but it had more to do with global Cyro population limit change.

How can you come to the conclusion ballgroups never got nerfed?
I can give you a few examples that hurt the playstyle quite alot for the avg. ballgroup.
- The change to the harmony trait.
It was orginally doing 35% more damage per jewerly = 105% more damage to all synergies picked (which was broken)
Then it got nerfed down to 20% per jewerly = 60% more damage to all synergies picked (still pretty broken)
Then it got removed entirely, you now gain x amount of extra resources when you pick a synergy.
In the end means all ballgroups got a 105% damange reduction on synergies picked (which is a insane dmg nerf).

- The introduction of Plaguebreak.
With the introduction of this set ZOS removed a entire function of ballgroups and that was the way to counter siege in the form of using Purge to remove siege (ofc you could also remove alot of other negative effects but the most hurtful is siege).
So now if you get enough siege on you it doesnt really matter how much healing you have, if you take 3-4 oils thet can tick 10k+ per tick and if you are unlucky you get the ticks in the same GAME tick which means instakill.
Also this made it very hard to run a set like 'Meritorious Service' because you no longer had someone able to spam Purge (and spam casting siege shield or flare is way to expensive so its not really possible) which made all the ballgroups all the suddon loose 3k resist ontop of what i just described

- The changes to Echoing Vigor and Rad Regen
They nerfed the healing per tick of both these skills and extended the duration of Echoing Vigor (yes makes it easier to keep up but still less healing PER TICK).

Ballgroups is NOT unbalanced nor OP, only if you compare it with the avg zerg group that runs random gear, random CP's, maybe some is new in PvP and have no idea what they are doing and so on.
You cant compare a ballgroup that have Min/maxed EVERYTHING wiith the rest of cyro who comes and goes with w/e they want.
Its like you would compare x persons avg car they had for the last 20 years with the newest fastest car in the world and they race against eachohter, makes no sense to make such a comparison.

WaywardArgonian

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The weirdest part is that they have means to nerf ball groups & only ball groups without affecting any other playstyle. For instance, there are sets (Pale Order, Rallying Cry etc) that scale with the group size & get weaker the larger the group is. Devs could added something like this directly to battle spirit & make it affect skills, passives, everything. Other very often mentioned thing is to reduce stacking of "same type" positive effects, to like 3 or something, so that "average Joe" solo player or small scale group would not feel it at all, but "ball group" would not be able to stack 10+ Vigors & Regeneration all stacked with 100% uptime giving them 20K+ health recovery.

Making basic stats weaker based on group size will affect all people who play in groups. There are more groups of casual guilds/pugs than there are ballgroups, so to pretend like such a measure would only affect ballgroups is short-sighted.

The other option of preventing HoT-stacking would affect ballgroups more, but other groups would still notice such changes as well. It would also raise more technical questions, like which Vigor gets priority. The one that is applied first? The one with the highest tooltip? Or can a new Vigor cast simply override the old one? That is not even delving into more fundamental game design questions, such as whether as a dev you want to effectively punish people for grouping in an efficient manner.

Not saying that nothing of the like can be done, but these solutions which are often touted as simple fixes bring with them an array of difficult questions that touch upon the underpinnings of PVP gameplay, and will always have at least some adverse effect on those who play in other types of groups.

Thraben

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Negate shuts down healers and learning to recognize the healers in a group and targeting them is how it supposed to be done. But most want to run around in mindless 40K health tanky zergs and complain about organized groups.

Negates have always been useless against HoTs and are now even useless against burst healing when the group knows what they are doing, even in NoProc Cyro. Luckily, most groups will not take advantage of it, at least for a while.

What is needed a powerful heal absorbtion field that is NOT mechanically bound to a stun. Like the original implementation of the Necro´s scythe skill.

Four_Fingers

Negate is best used before the HoT is cast preventing it from being cast in the first place or preventing further casting.
Timing is everything when playing a negate bot.
Never said it removed them.

TechMaybeHic

Thraben wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Negate shuts down healers and learning to recognize the healers in a group and targeting them is how it supposed to be done. But most want to run around in mindless 40K health tanky zergs and complain about organized groups.

Negates have always been useless against HoTs and are now even useless against burst healing when the group knows what they are doing, even in NoProc Cyro. Luckily, most groups will not take advantage of it, at least for a while.

What is needed a powerful heal absorbtion field that is NOT mechanically bound to a stun. Like the original implementation of the Necro´s scythe skill.

Have to be careful here again as that sort of thing can hit non-ball groups more; and be a zerg empowering tool.

I'd be good with something that isolates a target from outside heals while fighting. Or just any way to be able to pick focus a target. Targeting makes that difficult in this game as enemies tightly grouped go through each other and share damage.

Group coordination can and should still be used to combat the other group. It just should not be amplified so much by LOS on a bad targeting system that creates a disadvantage for removable and blickable damage vs automatic target irremovable unlockable heals. And that's a problem beyond just ball groups

Thraben

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Have to be careful here again as that sort of thing can hit non-ball groups more; and be a zerg empowering tool.

I

That´s why they removed the orginal scythe. I´m not convinced, though. Zergs are not organised enough to use a specific morph. They are not even able to use a critical mass of Silver Shards, Vigor, or Detonations. And SmallScalers and solo players should rely on more than just structural overhealing.

It´s not all doom and gloom, though. Stamina Arcanist healers might not be countered by a Negate, but there is always a good chance that a random DK uses Deep Breath. HoTs remain the true problem.

Crown

Double siege damage, problem solved. Oh wait, you don't have to, all the random solos and PuGs just need to start using siege against us..

Tommy_The_Gun

Crown wrote: »

Double siege damage, problem solved. Oh wait, you don't have to, all the random solos and PuGs just need to start using siege against us..

The thing is that they do. Ball groups simply don't even notice that there are 5x Ballistas & Meatbag hitting them, cuz they have 10+ Vigors & Rapid regens all ticking on them.

Stoney_McGeee

Geeze this thread is sad, why not coordinate and group up?

drop negates , stop sniping, put the meta master swords away.

Tasvori

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

Double siege damage, problem solved. Oh wait, you don't have to, all the random solos and PuGs just need to start using siege against us..

The thing is that they do. Ball groups simply don't even notice that there are 5x Ballistas & Meatbag hitting them, cuz they have 10+ Vigors & Rapid regens all ticking on them.

Played for years in various groups, the number one thing that kills us is siege. Best way to learn how to fight against a ball group is to join one

Sm0ke

cptfrog wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

With all do respect they have buffed them continuously for most of the game's life. To expect anything else is foolish. Do as they want: play in a ball group or leave.

I actually have come to the same conclusion.

The only exception is "ball group" playstyle. ZOS kept buffing them over the years (sometimes indirectly) and arguably they never received a single nerf that would target only that playstyle. One might argue that reducing group size was a nerf, but it had more to do with global Cyro population limit change.

How can you come to the conclusion ballgroups never got nerfed?
I can give you a few examples that hurt the playstyle quite alot for the avg. ballgroup.
- The change to the harmony trait.
It was orginally doing 35% more damage per jewerly = 105% more damage to all synergies picked (which was broken)
Then it got nerfed down to 20% per jewerly = 60% more damage to all synergies picked (still pretty broken)
Then it got removed entirely, you now gain x amount of extra resources when you pick a synergy.
In the end means all ballgroups got a 105% damange reduction on synergies picked (which is a insane dmg nerf).

- The introduction of Plaguebreak.
With the introduction of this set ZOS removed a entire function of ballgroups and that was the way to counter siege in the form of using Purge to remove siege (ofc you could also remove alot of other negative effects but the most hurtful is siege).
So now if you get enough siege on you it doesnt really matter how much healing you have, if you take 3-4 oils thet can tick 10k+ per tick and if you are unlucky you get the ticks in the same GAME tick which means instakill.
Also this made it very hard to run a set like 'Meritorious Service' because you no longer had someone able to spam Purge (and spam casting siege shield or flare is way to expensive so its not really possible) which made all the ballgroups all the suddon loose 3k resist ontop of what i just described

- The changes to Echoing Vigor and Rad Regen
They nerfed the healing per tick of both these skills and extended the duration of Echoing Vigor (yes makes it easier to keep up but still less healing PER TICK).

Ballgroups is NOT unbalanced nor OP, only if you compare it with the avg zerg group that runs random gear, random CP's, maybe some is new in PvP and have no idea what they are doing and so on.
You cant compare a ballgroup that have Min/maxed EVERYTHING wiith the rest of cyro who comes and goes with w/e they want.
Its like you would compare x persons avg car they had for the last 20 years with the newest fastest car in the world and they race against eachohter, makes no sense to make such a comparison.

You're wasting your time dude explaining basic things to them.
The most interesting thing is that over the years ZoS continued to listen to such experts and personally destroying group gameplay in AvAvA location for which it was intended. Ofc the funniest thing is purge ban because of plaguebreak. They simply removed ALLINACE WAR skill from Cyro . What a genius.

Tommy_The_Gun

Sm0ke wrote: »

cptfrog wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

With all do respect they have buffed them continuously for most of the game's life. To expect anything else is foolish. Do as they want: play in a ball group or leave.

I actually have come to the same conclusion.

The only exception is "ball group" playstyle. ZOS kept buffing them over the years (sometimes indirectly) and arguably they never received a single nerf that would target only that playstyle. One might argue that reducing group size was a nerf, but it had more to do with global Cyro population limit change.

How can you come to the conclusion ballgroups never got nerfed?
I can give you a few examples that hurt the playstyle quite alot for the avg. ballgroup.
- The change to the harmony trait.
It was orginally doing 35% more damage per jewerly = 105% more damage to all synergies picked (which was broken)
Then it got nerfed down to 20% per jewerly = 60% more damage to all synergies picked (still pretty broken)
Then it got removed entirely, you now gain x amount of extra resources when you pick a synergy.
In the end means all ballgroups got a 105% damange reduction on synergies picked (which is a insane dmg nerf).

- The introduction of Plaguebreak.
With the introduction of this set ZOS removed a entire function of ballgroups and that was the way to counter siege in the form of using Purge to remove siege (ofc you could also remove alot of other negative effects but the most hurtful is siege).
So now if you get enough siege on you it doesnt really matter how much healing you have, if you take 3-4 oils thet can tick 10k+ per tick and if you are unlucky you get the ticks in the same GAME tick which means instakill.
Also this made it very hard to run a set like 'Meritorious Service' because you no longer had someone able to spam Purge (and spam casting siege shield or flare is way to expensive so its not really possible) which made all the ballgroups all the suddon loose 3k resist ontop of what i just described

- The changes to Echoing Vigor and Rad Regen
They nerfed the healing per tick of both these skills and extended the duration of Echoing Vigor (yes makes it easier to keep up but still less healing PER TICK).

Ballgroups is NOT unbalanced nor OP, only if you compare it with the avg zerg group that runs random gear, random CP's, maybe some is new in PvP and have no idea what they are doing and so on.
You cant compare a ballgroup that have Min/maxed EVERYTHING wiith the rest of cyro who comes and goes with w/e they want.
Its like you would compare x persons avg car they had for the last 20 years with the newest fastest car in the world and they race against eachohter, makes no sense to make such a comparison.

You're wasting your time dude explaining basic things to them.
The most interesting thing is that over the years ZoS continued to listen to such experts and personally destroying group gameplay in AvAvA location for which it was intended. Ofc the funniest thing is purge ban because of plaguebreak. They simply removed ALLINACE WAR skill from Cyro . What a genius.

Well, group play is the only valid option in Cyro & IC right now tbh - which is exactly my point. Why use any other play-style, if the only one that matters is "Ball Group" (Best in Slot) ? There were so many interesting and valid play-styles, but ZOS kinda wrecked them all. While other things were getting nerfed the group play was either getting buffed by things that were supposed to be a direct counter to those groups or were not nerfed while other stuff was.

The result is, well... It is like... imagine you have a shooter game and every one uses same guns & tactics combo and devs don't change anything. Gameplay becomes stale, predictable, and one-sided & not fun. This is exactly what happened to Cyro & IC. When people say "Ball Groups Destroyed Cyrodiil" they don't mean to be mean towards players who play in those groups, but rather they are frustrated at ZOS combat team that they allowed for this to happen in a 1st place. That one play style is so much ahead over other tactics and has no strong counters at all (or at least the ones that would be relevant enough).

Which is why I think that this is intended. I can not think of a dev to be this incompetent to cause such obvious & serious balance issue by accident, so it must be intensional. ZOS "Wants" ball groups to be über OP, otherwise ball groups would get nerfed long time ago. As for why ZOS does that ? Well, I can only guess. Maybe ZOS thinks that Ball Groups are their PvP target audience. Or they think that they are the most hardcore & they don't want those players to leave, so they balance out the game in a way to keep them playing or something. Idk. I play this game since 2014, and I have seen pretty much every balance change that there was, so I feel confident in what I am saying.

On the other hand, I guess it does not matter much. Cyro is kinda dead anyway. It is not like players nowadays care much who wins or loses. It is more or less a "PvP Sandbox" rather than what it was intended to be - an competitive end-game where skill matters.

ReggaeRanger

I don't really like or promote BG's but I respect what it takes to stay together like that and be at the top of their game. I see BG's as an elite group of a faction able to turn the tide of a fight. BGs are the result of no new content or features in Cyr and players being bored.

OBJnoob

ReggaeRanger wrote: »

I don't really like or promote BG's but I respect what it takes to stay together like that and be at the top of their game. I see BG's as an elite group of a faction able to turn the tide of a fight. BGs are the result of no new content or features in Cyr and players being bored.

I would argue that ballgroups are pretty content with the game. People complaining about ballgroups are a result of no new content and players being bored. Ballgroups are a result of having friends + being allowed to form groups + theorycrafting to min/max the group the same way solo players craft their own builds.

Only a fool would spend more than half a second wondering what makes them strong. More people is what makes them strong.

The only thing that can be done about this is to make the max group size smaller.

Four_Fingers

Or make cyro group only I would argue.

ADawg

The solution is simple:

BETTER KEEP DEFENSE MECHANICS

Punish braindead ball groups for standing braindead in a ball group.


Ways to implement:

1. Siege damage bonuses while defending or firing from a wall
2. Bonuses to Tri Keep Defenses, give lower population factions a benefit for defending their "home land" while zergs stomp the ring for emp
3. Maybe have a counter Emp mechanic for lower population. Something like a "Champion" status that aids a defending faction in home areas. Can make the highest leaderboard characters (or all 10?) have a mini-emp buff while DEFENDING from a zerg.
4. Rework the resource and buff mechanics to make them worthwhile. Currently we have:
a. Lumber mill increases door strength
b. Mine increases wall strength
c. Farm increases NPC strength

This is just...meh. Incentivize players protecting resources to better increase effectiveness of keeps

5. Add player-driven support mechanics to base defenses. Things such as supply missions, escort missions, etc that when performed the associated Keep gains benefits. IF players ignore these mechanics, then the keep does not enjoy the benefits.


I may just make an entire post about this...

Four_Fingers

Let's see, organized groups do all the build composition and coordination, and you call them brain dead. lmao

Joy_Division

OBJnoob wrote: »

ReggaeRanger wrote: »

I don't really like or promote BG's but I respect what it takes to stay together like that and be at the top of their game. I see BG's as an elite group of a faction able to turn the tide of a fight. BGs are the result of no new content or features in Cyr and players being bored.

I would argue that ballgroups are pretty content with the game. People complaining about ballgroups are a result of no new content and players being bored. Ballgroups are a result of having friends + being allowed to form groups + theorycrafting to min/max the group the same way solo players craft their own builds.

Only a fool would spend more than half a second wondering what makes them strong. More people is what makes them strong.

The only thing that can be done about this is to make the max group size smaller.

As someone who runs in an organized group, I can assure you I and many others are not content with the game. It's stale. It's boring. We all run the same damage specs. Lead is same class, same skill bars. The tactics are the same: pull synchronized delayed damage, disengage after 3 seconds. Rinse, repeat. There aren't very many other groups to fight. So few players are left we outsource to fill out our rosters (which is easy since we all run the same basic setup).

If you think that moar people make the ball groups strong, then you haven't been paying attention. Because anyone under 30K health or plays like a PUG is walking VD fodder as bombing is now open ro numerous specs, the sayings "less is more" and "addition by subtraction" are very real considerations. A good group will actively avoid allies and even goes as far as intentionally not rezzing randoms. A disorganized mass of mediocrity is only effective at one thing in 2023 Cyrodiil: being a target.

TechMaybeHic

Joy_Division wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

ReggaeRanger wrote: »

I don't really like or promote BG's but I respect what it takes to stay together like that and be at the top of their game. I see BG's as an elite group of a faction able to turn the tide of a fight. BGs are the result of no new content or features in Cyr and players being bored.

I would argue that ballgroups are pretty content with the game. People complaining about ballgroups are a result of no new content and players being bored. Ballgroups are a result of having friends + being allowed to form groups + theorycrafting to min/max the group the same way solo players craft their own builds.

Only a fool would spend more than half a second wondering what makes them strong. More people is what makes them strong.

The only thing that can be done about this is to make the max group size smaller.

As someone who runs in an organized group, I can assure you I and many others are not content with the game. It's stale. It's boring. We all run the same damage specs. Lead is same class, same skill bars. The tactics are the same: pull synchronized delayed damage, disengage after 3 seconds. Rinse, repeat. There aren't very many other groups to fight. So few players are left we outsource to fill out our rosters (which is easy since we all run the same basic setup).

If you think that moar people make the ball groups strong, then you haven't been paying attention. Because anyone under 30K health or plays like a PUG is walking VD fodder as bombing is now open ro numerous specs, the sayings "less is more" and "addition by subtraction" are very real considerations. A good group will actively avoid allies and even goes as far as intentionally not rezzing randoms. A disorganized mass of mediocrity is only effective at one thing in 2023 Cyrodiil: being a target.

You are bored by it but you still run that way? I think this highlights why they should not empower the "ball group" way of running as being the way you have to run to be an organized group. There are other forms of organizing that can be done as far as coordinating attacks and position without it having to be stay stacked tight and everyone layer heals; but the scale is tipped very heavily in that favor and whenever someone mentions it, there's this "Organized play will always win" comment I hate as that is not what people are complaining about.

And yes; randoms are a liability. And so is bringing on less experienced PvPers to a group in comms to teach them up. That's a problem with all these bomb mechanics they keep adding. The group I run with still brings any guildy that wants to learn and I know I at least, certainly feel it. But that's part of being a community and I think the incentive to avoid weak players on your side is extremely bad for the health of the game