ZOS plans concerning BALL GROUPS?

AstroST

Loooree wrote: »

Classic in eso community tbf I don't know if there is any other game around that hates organised teamplay so much.

No one hates organized gameplay, someone, like me, just hates broken mechanics.

This fairy tale that ball groupers are so good because they are very organized is so boring and false.
They are immortal only because in ESO there is a total broken mechanic and they exploit it.

No serious PVP game would allow 12 instances of same healing skill to stack.

OBJnoob

Zmeigo_Rinich wrote: »

The easy way to remove ballgroups from Cyrodiil is to add a new debuff, decreasing received healing from other players when you are in a group (depending from a number of players in a group). If your group has 6 players you can recieve only 50% healing from other players. If your group has 12 players, you can recieve healing only from yourself. If you are playing without group you recieve full healing from nearest random players.

I've never been a fan of ideas like this-- making it so group members can't heal eachother. Putting a certain diminishing percentage on it isn't bad though. I prefer that to limiting stacks because at least the ability to help, to some degree, is retained. I could get on board with this except for one thing that bugs me.

Why should a solo player receive full healing from someone not even in their group? Don't get me wrong I have no problem with some random healing some other random. I, for one, don't see every fight in cyrodiil as being a duel or an X that you're supposed to not interfere with. I think when you see a low health ally you're supposed to heal them.

What bugs me is that now, with these proposed changes, you can heal non-grouped allies better than you can heal your own group members. That's surely not what we want, is it?

Let's not forget this is an MMO. You can be upset about the power of ballgroups all you want... Try to isolate the offending mechanic... Nerf it down to balance... But let's not make grouping disadvantageous. It's a team game. It's a team zone.

Loooree

AstroST wrote: »

Loooree wrote: »

Classic in eso community tbf I don't know if there is any other game around that hates organised teamplay so much.

No one hates organized gameplay, someone, like me, just hates broken mechanics.

This fairy tale that ball groupers are so good because they are very organized is so boring and false.
They are immortal only because in ESO there is a total broken mechanic and they exploit it.

No serious PVP game would allow 12 instances of same healing skill to stack.

dots and siege debuffs stack so should hots thank you stranger have a good day

Zmeigo_Rinich

OBJnoob wrote: »

Zmeigo_Rinich wrote: »

The easy way to remove ballgroups from Cyrodiil is to add a new debuff, decreasing received healing from other players when you are in a group (depending from a number of players in a group). If your group has 6 players you can recieve only 50% healing from other players. If your group has 12 players, you can recieve healing only from yourself. If you are playing without group you recieve full healing from nearest random players.

I've never been a fan of ideas like this-- making it so group members can't heal eachother. Putting a certain diminishing percentage on it isn't bad though. I prefer that to limiting stacks because at least the ability to help, to some degree, is retained. I could get on board with this except for one thing that bugs me.

Why should a solo player receive full healing from someone not even in their group? Don't get me wrong I have no problem with some random healing some other random. I, for one, don't see every fight in cyrodiil as being a duel or an X that you're supposed to not interfere with. I think when you see a low health ally you're supposed to heal them.

What bugs me is that now, with these proposed changes, you can heal non-grouped allies better than you can heal your own group members. That's surely not what we want, is it?

Let's not forget this is an MMO. You can be upset about the power of ballgroups all you want... Try to isolate the offending mechanic... Nerf it down to balance... But let's not make grouping disadvantageous. It's a team game. It's a team zone.

Any organized group is stronger than the same number of random players. Trite because of the coordination of actions. So maybe we'll give solo players a chance? The larger the group, the weaker the outer healing. If you play with a small group, then the penalty to external healing will be insignificant. If you are playing in zerg or ballgroup, it would be a good idea to level the odds with solo players. In any case, you will have an advantage due to the coordination of damage.
If you are afraid that you will heal players outside the group better than your teammates, then may be a good idea will make a penalty to the healing of other players depending on the size of the group, and not to the external healing received.
The idea of limiting healing stacks can lead to a serious load on the servers, when the game will be forced to calculate who it has already applied healing to and who it has not. Again, you will have a situation where you will heal not the one you wanted, but someone else.

When there is only one ballgroup, it is not such a big problem. But when you have 3-4 enemy ballgroups on your home fortresses, it is very sad. You can't even go to another place - you simply have no other places. And if the ballgroup is good, then you cannot kill it even with siege weapons (hi, ProjectNova, you are very good).

And TESO is not exactly a team game - just remember the number of questers and house builders. And Cyrodiil is just a place where you can fight - alone or with your allies. After all, you are not thrown into a group like in a BG when entering Cyrodiil?

OBJnoob

Zmeigo_Rinich wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Zmeigo_Rinich wrote: »

The easy way to remove ballgroups from Cyrodiil is to add a new debuff, decreasing received healing from other players when you are in a group (depending from a number of players in a group). If your group has 6 players you can recieve only 50% healing from other players. If your group has 12 players, you can recieve healing only from yourself. If you are playing without group you recieve full healing from nearest random players.

I've never been a fan of ideas like this-- making it so group members can't heal eachother. Putting a certain diminishing percentage on it isn't bad though. I prefer that to limiting stacks because at least the ability to help, to some degree, is retained. I could get on board with this except for one thing that bugs me.

Why should a solo player receive full healing from someone not even in their group? Don't get me wrong I have no problem with some random healing some other random. I, for one, don't see every fight in cyrodiil as being a duel or an X that you're supposed to not interfere with. I think when you see a low health ally you're supposed to heal them.

What bugs me is that now, with these proposed changes, you can heal non-grouped allies better than you can heal your own group members. That's surely not what we want, is it?

Let's not forget this is an MMO. You can be upset about the power of ballgroups all you want... Try to isolate the offending mechanic... Nerf it down to balance... But let's not make grouping disadvantageous. It's a team game. It's a team zone.

And TESO is not exactly a team game - just remember the number of questers and house builders. And Cyrodiil is just a place where you can fight - alone or with your allies. After all, you are not thrown into a group like in a BG when entering Cyrodiil?

Yes you can fight alone if you so choose. Doesn't change the fact that you're capturing objectives and earning points for your team.

Solo players don't need to be given a fighting chance against ballgroups. That's the opposite of balance. You fly solo at your own peril in an AvAvA environment. Some people play the team game better than others.

Zmeigo_Rinich

[/quote]

Solo players don't need to be given a fighting chance against ballgroups. That's the opposite of balance. You fly solo at your own peril in an AvAvA environment. Some people play the team game better than others.

[/quote]

It's a bad idea when a ballgroup may be killed only by other ballgroup. But this is exactly what we can see today (at least on PC EU).

Delphinia

The thing they should do is boot them out of an unlit keep if it’s been unlit for more than a certain amount of time; such as let’s say 10 minutes. If they want to run laps, fine, just do it out in the field around a track. It’s gotten so old porting into your alliance owned unlit keep only to be run over by a herd of spamtastics. Make them lose health over time. No ability to heal. Better yet, if they’re still prancing around, have the guards throw them onto a catapult and send them on their way.

AstroST

Loooree wrote: »

AstroST wrote: »

Loooree wrote: »

Classic in eso community tbf I don't know if there is any other game around that hates organised teamplay so much.

No one hates organized gameplay, someone, like me, just hates broken mechanics.

This fairy tale that ball groupers are so good because they are very organized is so boring and false.
They are immortal only because in ESO there is a total broken mechanic and they exploit it.

No serious PVP game would allow 12 instances of same healing skill to stack.

dots and siege debuffs stack so should hots thank you stranger have a good day

Are you serious?
First take a look at tootltips values please.

Melee dots: totally unusable, no one in his right mind go near a 12 people group constantly spamming aoe
Ground base dots: totally unusable since people constantly move around
Some ranged weak dots can't do anything agains people spamming radiant regen/echoign vigor and other shield that ALL stack

And you compare those to smart healing where you just need to press a button and the skill target your friends lmao

If ball groupers think they are so good why opposinig against the removal of a single mechanic?
Because they love to be immortal exploting that single mechanic and that is the only PVP they can do.

Blackrim

For anyone that is unknowledgeable or inexperienced in Cyrodiil, the key to functioning ball groups is cross healing. The sole skill that cannot be removed by simple means (silence etc...) is Echoing Vigor. In fact, I suggest every player run it on a faction. It stacks infinitely. You could have 1000 applications of vigor at once. Lets do some math:

Lets say the average echoing vigor gives you 10,400 health over 10 seconds (note its probably double this)

10,400 /10

1040 health a second per player hit.

1040 * 50 =52000 health per second.

If you had a fifty-man Zerg stack and cast echoing vigor... they would receive 52,000 health per second.

Good luck killing that!

In reality, that healing would probably be close to 100k health per second.

Removing this skill from Cyrodiil will be a great compromise for ball groups and players.

They will not survive negates.

Blackrim

Because this is a stamina skill, it cannot be removed by negate like other healing over time effects. Thus, you are never going to kill a ball group without a lot of skills from over 20-30+ average players bursting as much damage as possible in a single second to kill them all at once.

Also... The current solution to beating ball groups is to have everyone in your faction run this skill. It will be like simulating 2 healing over time healers following each person around pocket and healing them. This will give you a little tiny fighting chance against ball groups.

Simple as that, fix the game lol

TechMaybeHic

Your best shot against ball groups seems to be seige defending the keep before they get in. Can't do their ball group thing and seige at the same time. Although some will go with a zerg to siege for them or run 2 or 3 groups deep so they have their own zerg to get in

Four_Fingers

Negate and siege, use the tools that will work.
You can make all the silly changes you are suggesting, and we will still prevail.
Heck we don't even have to group, we can run together in a "solo" group as long as we can communicate - Guild chat, Discord, Party chat, Skype, etc.
This is not a single player only game, get used to it.

OBJnoob

AstroST wrote: »

If ball groupers think they are so good why opposinig against the removal of a single mechanic?
Because they love to be immortal exploting that single mechanic and that is the only PVP they can do.

I don't see many ballgroupers coming to these topics talking about how much they need heal stacking. Mostly I see them warning that coordinated groups will always have an astronomical advantage and if this is removed then they will just move on to the next strongest thing.

HoT stacking is strong because it continues for a while and therefore saves GCDs and allows you to do other things for 5 or 10 seconds before clicking the button again.

But if you don't think having 3 or 4 people dedicated to spamming one of the many powerful multi-target burst heals is going to be the same or better then you're just not thinking. And who besides a large coordinated group is going to have 4 people to spare for this transition?

But... Now to what I actually quoted. If you're such a good solo player how about the next time you go out there trying to fight outnumbered you do it without Resolving Vigor on your bar. Should be easy, right? Since what solo players do is raw talent and not at all dependent on OP healing? Does Healthy Offering not need nerfed? Coag? Polar Wind? Undeath? Block healing?

What perfectly tuned mechanics enable 1 person to kill 6, hmm? Or 4 to kill 12? Maybe if you can explain why your OP healing is non-exploitative they'll do it your way instead.

Amottica

AstroST wrote: »

Loooree wrote: »

AstroST wrote: »

Loooree wrote: »

Classic in eso community tbf I don't know if there is any other game around that hates organised teamplay so much.

No one hates organized gameplay, someone, like me, just hates broken mechanics.

This fairy tale that ball groupers are so good because they are very organized is so boring and false.
They are immortal only because in ESO there is a total broken mechanic and they exploit it.

No serious PVP game would allow 12 instances of same healing skill to stack.

dots and siege debuffs stack so should hots thank you stranger have a good day

If ball groupers think they are so good why opposinig against the removal of a single mechanic?
Because they love to be immortal exploting that single mechanic and that is the only PVP they can do.

No group is immortal. It just takes a well-coordinated group to take out a well-coordinated group. This is the case regardless of the groups size.

I know. I see it. My small group has taken out much larger groups because we are well-organized and have good commanders who call the shots that we follow.

Freilauftomate

How many hots do we have in this game?
How many dots do we have in this game?
How many players get the hot when you use it?
Who will get the hot when you use it again?
How often do hots heal?
For how much do hots heal?

I know, i know... the game doesn't tell you how it works. So it's easy to believe whatever you want to believe. But before you run around yelling "hot hots hots!!! hots are evil!", maybe you could try to learn how the game works first. Even if some questions i am asking are not that easy to answer. Especially the one with hot-targeting...

Erikx

There was a counter to this once and it was called bombing. But zos took that out of the game because ball groups were abusing that too. There is just no counter at the moment except a bigger ball group. Right now the game is even worse too because of this horrible tank/proctard meta. Most everyone runs one tank set and the rest proc sets and has 40k health. So this makes ball groups even worse and theres just no counter to it.

Dat

[snip] It's not gonna happen. We adapt to the changes...that's what we have done for years. When the meta shifts we shift with it. From the destro meta with no pull sets, to the pull set db meta we have today.

I don't quite understand all the hate tbh. We take the time to build out our comps for what we want to fight. Full gvg build? There is a comp for that. Fighting a entire faction? There is a comp for that as well

As for doing nothing for the alliance, ZoS killed the care for that when they took out the pvp buffs gave a benefit to the pve players. The faction war is over. Very few people care about alliance anymore. I for one play for the adrenaline rush of fighting far more players then what we have. Is it our fault that people don't want to group up? No it isn't.

[snip] Just because you grouped up and had the correct sets/skills, that doesn't make you a high performing group. The APM of a ball is so crazy high that I think alot of the "doomsayers" would be amazed if they looked at it over the course of a 2 hour raid. Calling ballgroup players bad pvpers just speaks that you're mad they killed you. I'm a trash solo player and I'll tell anyone that who will listen. But when it comes to timing dbs or making correct calls fighting a larger group that's where I excel. So why does that make me and mine bad players exactly? Every skill on our bars has a purpose. If you want to fight us I'd be happy to even give you the comp we use. Honestly we would be happy if more people made groups like these for us to fight. Fighting pugs is great fun and seeing the big pops from VD is cool but after 30-45 min it gets boring lol

[edited for baiting]

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Brakkish

How DARE they use teamwork against you.

AstroST

Yesterday I was on a keep with a ball group inside.
I was bored and so I just stood on a tower and thanks to the new dead announcment features I counted kills.

After a while I was at 0 EP dead and 352 DC dead.

If anyone thinks this is ok and a game should allow such imbalance, well, we have very different opinions.

As usual I want to point out that no one thinks premade groups shouldn't be stronger then randoms. Coordination and organization must always be rewarded. Broken mechanics on the other hand should be fixed.

WaywardArgonian

AstroST wrote: »

Yesterday I was on a keep with a ball group inside.
I was bored and so I just stood on a tower and thanks to the new dead announcment features I counted kills.

After a while I was at 0 EP dead and 352 DC dead.

If anyone thinks this is ok and a game should allow such imbalance, well, we have very different opinions.

As usual I want to point out that no one thinks premade groups shouldn't be stronger then randoms. Coordination and organization must always be rewarded. Broken mechanics on the other hand should be fixed.

Sounds like Trueflame is getting that W again.

Four_Fingers

352 in one spot the server would croak

OBJnoob

Four_Fingers wrote: »

352 in one spot the server would croak

Don't worry it was the same 15 people dying over and over, lol.

Marcus684

OBJnoob wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

352 in one spot the server would croak

Don't worry it was the same 15 people dying over and over, lol.

Plus another 50 that died one time and said, "The heck with this" and logged off.

MedicInTheWild

I go from kinda okay latency of 90-130 to stupid 400+ when these groups decide to run through an area, I have well more than enough PC and Internet, I have left the area myself which goes against the reason for being in PVP, to fight people and hold keeps Etc. I also agree that 40 people fighting the 1,2 or 3 ball groups in a keep does not help the lag, however it should not take 15 siege and 3 to 1 to kill a ballgroup. I believe in groups playing together but not at the cost of losing people to just being tired of the meta/almost unkillable groups, weather it being a ballgroup or 3-5 man sweat groups. You should not be able to take 4 Ultimate's while being sieged with coldfire and meatbags and live to tell the story. The balance of the game's PVP combat has gone to ***, which may not actually be as bad as it feels if the performance of the game was not so bad, So much health with to much damage, HOT's stacking, desync, etc and what does PVP get, no attention ( 3 irrelevant monster sets dont count ), not any major adjustments, other than stuff that overbuffs ballgroups. I have seen so much on give a new battleground map, oh were not adding anything to the PVP side until we fix the performance, when is that gonna be?? PC NA was good in PVP after the server upgrade for a few days/weeks, why not try wiping and reloading the server to see if that helps performance again?? I would rather have 6 hours of downtime a week to keep PVP performance back to awesome, even 12 hours of downtime I could easily deal with weekly if it would fix it.
Bring back the 100+ Que from Azura's Star into Grey Host which I think is easily possible if the server performance/class&set balance were to be fixed or close to fixed.

IZZEFlameLash

If only there was a magic solution that ballgroup cannot utilize it at all. Wait, it doesn't exist. All these 'anti-ballgroup' sets and measures are best used when you are in a ballgroup. So... yeah.

BetweenMidgets

Erikx wrote: »

There was a counter to this once and it was called bombing. But zos took that out of the game because ball groups were abusing that too. There is just no counter at the moment except a bigger ball group. Right now the game is even worse too because of this horrible tank/proctard meta. Most everyone runs one tank set and the rest proc sets and has 40k health. So this makes ball groups even worse and theres just no counter to it.

^^^^^^^
Heavily nerfing bombing was one of the worst mistakes ZoS could do if they were aiming to combat ballgrouping.

OBJnoob

Ballgroups are 12 people wearing synergistic gear, using team-oriented skills, and verbally coordinating their offense and defense.

It's not broken or unbalanced. Hell it's not even illogical.

What is broken, unbalanced, and illogical is that 1 person could sneak into the middle of a group like this and blow them all up.

I can't imagine an objectively good reason to prefer bombers to ballgroups. What a completely backwards viewpoint.

ZOS probably isn't interested in curtailing ballgroups. Why would they be? Ballgroups are playing the game to it's full potential.

Is nobody else tired of hearing a bunch of self-proclaimed PvP experts, who routinely run amuck solo killing Pug groups of various sizes, complain about a bigger group doing the same thing?

Sounds like petty jealousy to me. Always has... Always will.

If lag is the problem then complain about the lag.

IZZEFlameLash

OBJnoob wrote: »

Ballgroups are 12 people wearing synergistic gear, using team-oriented skills, and verbally coordinating their offense and defense.

It's not broken or unbalanced. Hell it's not even illogical.

What is broken, unbalanced, and illogical is that 1 person could sneak into the middle of a group like this and blow them all up.

I can't imagine an objectively good reason to prefer bombers to ballgroups. What a completely backwards viewpoint.

ZOS probably isn't interested in curtailing ballgroups. Why would they be? Ballgroups are playing the game to it's full potential.

Is nobody else tired of hearing a bunch of self-proclaimed PvP experts, who routinely run amuck solo killing Pug groups of various sizes, complain about a bigger group doing the same thing?

Sounds like petty jealousy to me. Always has... Always will.

If lag is the problem then complain about the lag.

Yeeeah... they kinda really need to be honest about themselves. They themselves essentially run in ballgroups too. Stacks heal like one, coordinates ults like one, and targets like one. Maybe it is just better we accept ballgroups are here to stay and will happen in any game. It just falls onto ZOS to make the game actually be able to handle the gameplay.

finehair

OBJnoob wrote: »

Ballgroups are 12 people wearing synergistic gear, using team-oriented skills, and verbally coordinating their offense and defense.

It's not broken or unbalanced. Hell it's not even illogical.

What is broken, unbalanced, and illogical is that 1 person could sneak into the middle of a group like this and blow them all up.

I can't imagine an objectively good reason to prefer bombers to ballgroups. What a completely backwards viewpoint.

ZOS probably isn't interested in curtailing ballgroups. Why would they be? Ballgroups are playing the game to it's full potential.

Is nobody else tired of hearing a bunch of self-proclaimed PvP experts, who routinely run amuck solo killing Pug groups of various sizes, complain about a bigger group doing the same thing?

Sounds like petty jealousy to me. Always has... Always will.

If lag is the problem then complain about the lag.

Bomber guy=alone, has about 22k hp with every aspect of his build is dedicated to kill a large amount of people in one go, try to escape if lucky. If he gets detected it is game over instantly without a kill. Only disturbs for 15 seconds until you get revived. Watching 20 guys get blowned up buy a single guy named "xxx_crazy8_xx" is fun as hell

Ball group: 12 dudes on 35k+ hp, stacking echoing vigor and radiating regen. One guy using a pull set, 4 dudes spamming purge on cd, impossible to kill unless a bigger fish comes. Disturbs the whole transitus line, increases lag when nearby, watching in action is spaztic as hell.

If you can't think of it yourself maybe there is a dedicated thinker in your ball group I suggest asking him.