ZOS plans concerning BALL GROUPS?

Túrin_Vidsmidr

This goes on every evening, in every faction, for hours. It's not even gameplay anymore.
Players are forced into two choices: abandon your castle/keep and hope the ballgroup moves on or keep getting spawn killed and farmed.
Do you plan to do anything about this [snip] that's destroying the PvP zone experience or will you keep pretending the problem does not exist?
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin
Just asking so that I can decide whether to renew my ESO+ that expires next week.



edit: typos.

[edited for minor bait]

DrNukenstein

Shut them all down. Probably the root of most performance issues, and their trial group approach to pvp ruins the experience for everyone else.

SpacemanSpiff1

do what exactly? anything zos could do will hurt the average player more.

coordinated groups will always be more effective and adapt to changes better.

Sleep724

We've been waiting since 2016 to hear about these plans.

kah

What exactly are they doing that's unfair in your mind? Genuinely curious as I always found a good strategy for PvP or PvE is to coordinate. I mean, I don't go so far as to super optimize like they do in ball groups, but I don't understand how what they're doing is wrong or against the rules.

OtarTheMad

I doubt ball groups are going anywhere. The only thing we can do is ignore them. It sucks but whenever I see one show up at a keep l just bail, it’s not worth it because sometimes it’s not just the ball group that shows up but also the rest of the faction.

NoticeMeArkay

Ball groups keep me out of Cyrodiil as soon as they show up. It's neither fun to be part of them, nor to stand against them. And when avoiding to fight enemy players and focusing on keeps that are not haunted by these abominations is the tactic best approached (and it is in most cases), then it's a lack of enjoyable PvP for me personally.

Tommy_The_Gun

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

do what exactly? anything zos could do will hurt the average player more.

coordinated groups will always be more effective and adapt to changes better.

Well, there are a lot of things ZOS could do that would not hurt average Joe or even small scale players but ball groups and only ball groups. The solution I am talking about is already in the game and is used on some sets. Ring of Pale Order and Rallying Cry already have this mechanic which literally scales with the group size. Those sets are weaker if you are in group and the larger the group - those become weaker.

Something like this could be potentially added directly to battle spirit and affect pretty much everything (Skills, passives CP, etc).

But before that I think the biggest reason why Ball Groups are broken is because there is actually no cap on how many positive / negative same effects you can have. So Ball groups tend to have like 8 - 11 Vigors & Radiating Regeneration all stacked into one ultra heal over time. They can literly have 20 - 30K health recovery that way. So... if there was a limit of lets say 3 or 4 of those heal over time, who would feel it the most ? Solo players ? No, they can only have 1 or maybe 2 vigors if some one near them casts it. Small Scale ? Maybe, but even if there is a medium scale group of 6 players they would not notice any difference. But Ball Groups ? Yep. It would hurt them and it would pretty much affect only them.

The reason why ZOS is not doing anything since like... since the game started and only makes Ball Groups stronger is that I think that ZOS considers "Ball Groups" their PvP target audience. They are making Cyro & IC for Ball Groups 1st. At least this is the only logical explanation. Because every time some play style became too strong - it was nerfed. Snipe Bow ganking is prime example. It was low risk with potentially high reward. And now Bow is a Meme. So why is Ball Group playstyle an exception from the norm and is not being adjusted as well ? Because they are ZOS's "PvP target audience". There could not be other explanation.

AstroST

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

do what exactly? anything zos could do will hurt the average player more.

coordinated groups will always be more effective and adapt to changes better.

Just put a limit on healing stacking using battle spirit.
We have been asking this for ages but zos combat team instead thought that introducing new sets was the right thing to do.
We all have seen how it went..

Now I think they just dont really care for pvp judging from what we got from the last patches (nothing).

Necrotech_Master

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

do what exactly? anything zos could do will hurt the average player more.

coordinated groups will always be more effective and adapt to changes better.

Well, there are a lot of things ZOS could do that would not hurt average Joe or even small scale players but ball groups and only ball groups. The solution I am talking about is already in the game and is used on some sets. Ring of Pale Order and Rallying Cry already have this mechanic which literally scales with the group size. Those sets are weaker if you are in group and the larger the group - those become weaker.

Something like this could be potentially added directly to battle spirit and affect pretty much everything (Skills, passives CP, etc).

But before that I think the biggest reason why Ball Groups are broken is because there is actually no cap on how many positive / negative same effects you can have. So Ball groups tend to have like 8 - 11 Vigors & Radiating Regeneration all stacked into one ultra heal over time. They can literly have 20 - 30K health recovery that way. So... if there was a limit of lets say 3 or 4 of those heal over time, who would feel it the most ? Solo players ? No, they can only have 1 or maybe 2 vigors if some one near them casts it. Small Scale ? Maybe, but even if there is a medium scale group of 6 players they would not notice any difference. But Ball Groups ? Yep. It would hurt them and it would pretty much affect only them.

The reason why ZOS is not doing anything since like... since the game started and only makes Ball Groups stronger is that I think that ZOS considers "Ball Groups" their PvP target audience. They are making Cyro & IC for Ball Groups 1st. At least this is the only logical explanation. Because every time some play style became too strong - it was nerfed. Snipe Bow ganking is prime example. It was low risk with potentially high reward. And now Bow is a Meme. So why is Ball Group playstyle an exception from the norm and is not being adjusted as well ? Because the are the ZOS's "PvP target audience". There could not be other explanation.

bow is certainly not a meme in pvp lol, half of the ganks out there are bow users

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Im not much of a pvp player but it seem wrong to to simply shut down a playstyle. They should buff the other ones in my opinion. What about a set tant reduce opponent healing taken by a lot like 50%,reducing its effect by x% for each of your group member or negating your ability to be healed by others? I also thing that an organized group should be more effective than a non organized one

Sheezabeast

Just wait till all the ball groups are DKs wearing the new armor set. You think they're unkillable now...

Poss

Drastically reduce HoT stacking. Simple. These ballgroups rely on the max vigor and regen stacks to function. Yes they will no doubt find a way to adapt but this simple change will make them a lot easier to kill

endgamesmug

Raiding pvp and pve to me is about as exciting as watching paint dry, but clearly im in the minority and the demand is there so it will naturally be supported and bring more raiders into the game.

Nighn_9

ZOS probably doesn't even know about the ball groups and their gameplay.

jk zos...

They know and totally approve of ball groups and their methods.

You can't exactly put a stop to it because it's just another way of playing the game. Even PVE has ball groups- trial groups. It's just a form of gameplay, everyone stack on crown and stick with crown and aim for who crown says.

I dislike them very much too because they absolutely bring lag into fights. I can reach a keep and know there is a ball group inside because the lag spikes. Even if there are hundreds of players on my screen, the lag is for sure there and worse when ball groups are around. Also, dealing with ball groups makes pvp disappointing and unfun. When not dealing with them, pvp is awesome and enjoyable, even if my team is currently losing that particular battle.

Sadly, there isn't really a way to "fix" the ball group gameplay problem without changing the core fundamentals of ESO's gameplay. Adding and/or changing sets and/or skills to help kill clustered-up grouped players will just make ball groups stronger because they will then use those sets too. If ZOS was somehow able to figure out a way to "fix" ball gameplay, I would be very interested to see how.

HalvarIronfist

Ball groups are people intentionally coordinating for the best possible results. They have good communications, often make plans of what sets and abilities to run, form strategies for their playstyle, and work towards improving upon their goals.

There is nothing broken or unfair about this. Everyone is capable of doing this, and even if you choose not to:

Ball groups are not indestructible. Ball groups can die. Ball groups can be disrupted and forced into awful situations. But if you just chase them around with no coordination or plan, you're going to get farmed. Plain and simple.

DirtyDeeds765

You could knit a sweater for a hippo with all these threads complaining about ballgroups.

Ballgrouping is playing the game in the most efficient way. If you're not ballgrouping in a large scale pvp area, you're doing it wrong. That's like playing a game of basketball with random people you just met and complaining that the other team has roles and a plan. You wouldn't do that - or you shouldn't - you'd just be like "oh, duh, that's why we lost. Let me get a team and a plan together for next time."

You could nerf literally anything you think is the problem and you'd still get dunked on by 12 people playing in the most efficient way. Nerf heal stacking, support sets, dark con, abilities, whatever you think it is, and 12 people working together dumping ultis at the same time are still going to wreck you. Numbers and optimization will win every time vs numbers and no optimization.

@DirtyDeeds765

Edit: added the sentence after the comparison with basketball

Nighn_9

I feel like a huge issue they need to address and FIX is the combat bug in Cyrodiil.

It's truly horrible remaining in combat even when I'm at a Home Gate Keep and haven't been in combat for 15 minutes.

It's almost like a way they handicap factions as needed to help the other factions.

At this point Battle Spirit should just go ahead and keep EVERYONE in combat inside Cyrodiil, never allowing anyone to ever mount, swap gear, swap skills, use recall stones, change quickslots, use wayshrine to leave cyro, logout, etc etc. Basically, making it to where you better have you setup 100% the way you want it before going into Cyrodiil.

doesurmindglow

The plan, as far as I can tell, is to buff them further. More buffs are incoming in the next patch, even.

The ship is so far out to sea you'd probably need to roll back a half-dozen patches to even get close to anything that might touch a ball group comp. I've advised them against numerous and repeated unnecessary buffs that disproportionately incentivize the playstyle at the cost of other viable options for PVP.

The developers have, in their wisdom, opted to ignore that advice. The message is clear: group up, develop a coordinated composition, and prepare to fight other groups that do the same OR play a different game.

Oblivion_Protocol

People cry about ball groups in Cyro. But I guarantee that those same people get real quiet when the ball group is on their side and wrecking everyone.

Besides, I’ve seen this argument in multiple MMOs. Ball groups, stacks, premades…whatever you want to call them. Anytime you get a bunch of people coordinating in voice chat, everyone goes into a nuclear meltdown and screams about nerfs, bans, and even cheating.

As someone else has pointed out, ball groups aren’t invincible. But, at the same time, proper coordination and communication SHOULD allow you a massive advantage over disorganized groups every time. Don’t like it? Find some friends, hop in Discord, and fight back intelligently. Don’t just assert that you should be able to kill anyone and everyone, then scream about nerfs when that isn’t the case.

And yes, I get the cross-healing argument. I agree it should be tuned down a bit. But if that happens, ball groups will just find some other way to survive. Then, more nerfs will be called for, and the cycle will continue until everything in this game gets nerfed so hard, it goes from ESO to Pong.

doesurmindglow

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

And yes, I get the cross-healing argument. I agree it should be tuned down a bit. But if that happens, ball groups will just find some other way to survive. Then, more nerfs will be called for, and the cycle will continue until everything in this game gets nerfed so hard, it goes from ESO to Pong.

Yeah what's most interesting about all the talk around crosshealing is besides the fact that the developers have recently and, according to 9.2 PTS patch notes, will continue to go in the opposite direction by buffing them, is the fact that stacking heal over time abilities was an adaptation to a previous popular nerf: a direct, obvious, and entirely predictable response to the consequences Plaguebreak introduced for "spamming" purge.

No one ever remembers now that before HOT stacking, this was the one silver bullet that if you just did something about, ball groups would cease to exist. But if you scroll back on the forums long enough you will find it, and you will find also that it didn't work. The result of multiple post-release changes to Plaguebreak is that it now finds its application almost exclusively as part of a ball group composition, much the same way that Vicious Death had before it.

Nothing was learned from that experience, and they actually subsequently DID nerf heal over time abilities, the effects of which have only further strengthened ball group compositions, so much so that people don't even seem to be aware it happened. The problem now is that adjusting crosshealing is already obsolete as an intervention: most groups are now stacking multiple layers of damage shields, enabled in part by powerful new sets and class abilities, that prevent healing from even being required in a lot of these encounters. Healing is, after all, a less potent source of mitigation than a damage shield: it essentially negates damage actually done to a player's HP, which doesn't even come into the equation if the only damage done is to the shields.

The strongest groups have noticed this, and reduced their healing profile to allow for more damage, dropping to a composition with 6 DPS, 2 or 3 supports who run things like PA and provide rapids or CC almost exclusively, and maybe just 3 dedicated healers. The balance is now much closer to the raid compositions you see in PVE, and that's largely because HOT stacking hasn't been as strong as damage shields and ultimate generation for about two or three patches.

AstroST

Just to clarify one thing because people seems that don't or don't want to understand.
No pvper is asking to remove the ball group play style, we are merely asking to tone down the broken mechanics that make them immortal.

endgamesmug

Starve them of fodder go play bg's instead?

RoxyPhoenix

I despise ball groups as much as anyone who ever encountered them, that being said, I do think they are an integral and valid part of PVP scene, they are just simply best at what they do, just like there are best duelists, tower huggers, snipers and bombers, they all have a place in cyrodill. What I don't think is right is the fact that ball groups hardly ever play objectives, they are overturned farming machines, and they take the most joy in running around and just stomping over anyone who gets too close. It is common for ball groups to retrieve their own scroll and then just farm people who try to take it from them, never even intending to return it to their own base. I have seen countless scenarios when a ball group has the power to drastically shift the outcome of a current battle, yet they simply ignore the map and stay in one place for hours just farming people not caring if their own faction loses home keeps or scrolls. This behavior is what makes people hate them. They have the power and skills to be the heroes yet, they choose to be a nuisance and pain.

Jierdanit

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Im not much of a pvp player but it seem wrong to to simply shut down a playstyle. They should buff the other ones in my opinion. What about a set tant reduce opponent healing taken by a lot like 50%,reducing its effect by x% for each of your group member or negating your ability to be healed by others? I also thing that an organized group should be more effective than a non organized one

Is it okay to shut down a playstyle if people playing like that make the game unplayable for almost everyone around them?
Cyro performance for me is usually fine until the first Ballgroups show up and by the time they all have it doesnt really matter where you are in Cyro, you will lag anyways.

The problem with introducing sets like that is that they will always hurt solo players more than actual Ballgroups.
Sure reducing their heal would make them weaker, but a Ballgroups heal is so ridiculously high that even with those heal reductions they would still be hard to kill, while they make a solo player or smaller groups simply die because they cant heal themselves anymore.

AstroST

RoxyPhoenix wrote: »

This behavior is what makes people hate them. They have the power and skills to be the heroes yet, they choose to be a nuisance and pain.

I have to hardly disagree about this, ball group have power only because people give it to them by letting them endlessy farm.
Their strenght is also their weakness, they are just one single entitye and can't do much in a map.
They can't siege a keep because they are too afraid of stopping doing the only thing they are able to do, constantly spamming aoe and healings.
The only way for them to enter a keep and maybe get a scroll is to play like vultures waiting for someone else to open it.
If only people learned to just ignore them and let them do their dance alone their impact on a campaign would be nil.

LarsS

RoxyPhoenix wrote: »

I despise ball groups as much as anyone who ever encountered them, that being said, I do think they are an integral and valid part of PVP scene, they are just simply best at what they do, just like there are best duelists, tower huggers, snipers and bombers, they all have a place in cyrodill. What I don't think is right is the fact that ball groups hardly ever play objectives, they are overturned farming machines, and they take the most joy in running around and just stomping over anyone who gets too close. It is common for ball groups to retrieve their own scroll and then just farm people who try to take it from them, never even intending to return it to their own base. I have seen countless scenarios when a ball group has the power to drastically shift the outcome of a current battle, yet they simply ignore the map and stay in one place for hours just farming people not caring if their own faction loses home keeps or scrolls. This behavior is what makes people hate them. They have the power and skills to be the heroes yet, they choose to be a nuisance and pain.

I think this Roxy is correct that many hate the hardcore ballgroups for this. If you have been in cyro for years though, you know that campaigns are not decided by what happens on prime time. I addition the camapign rewards are mediocre even if you win the campaign, so why should anyone care about the outcome and the map? It should not be a surprice that some players look for combat challenges instead, like trying to take on enemies, many times their numbers. A scroll is in this perspective an excellent tool to atract many enenmies.

TechMaybeHic

I think people focus on it being ball groups but they're just really coordinated groups. It's the mechanics that make it over the top. You'll always have organized play that leans in to the roles that compliment each other, and coordinate abilities.

Mechanics have changed. It used to be purge and healing spring spam. Now it's radiating regen and vigor spam. It's just too efficient with smart heals going to a large group without even having to target, and stacking endlessly.

Some will say limit HOT stacks or cross healing all together. Maybe you could in battle Spirit to not impact PvE. A more modest start could also be that the caster has to actually target heals to make them match their DOT counter part, rather than just raise their arm to a web of spreading HOTs. Other games I've played, your heals that heal 1 or 2 other people limits you to 2 active at any time, so if you cast it again, it refreshes the 2 or moves your HOTs to the different targets rather than just spamming until all are covered. Precedence is already here with some things like POTL/PL only being allowed on one e emy at a time.

Lots can be done to tone down potentcy while organized play could still exist; they just don't do it.

Remathilis

Túrin_Vidsmidr wrote: »

Do you plan to do anything about this [snip] that's destroying the PvP zone experience or will you keep pretending the problem does not exist?
[

Dark Convergence
Hrothgar's Chill
Mara's Balm
Nocturnal's Ploy
Plaguebreak
Snake in the Stars

[edited to remove quote]

BXR_Lonestar

Its a multiplayer game. There's nothing wrong with people playing the game as a group - AS INTENDED.

People who complain about ball groups simply don't understand the difficulty it takes to coordinate with 11 other parties - and to find players who are unselfish enough to wear sets that are all about group synergy rather than individual combat effectiveness. If you're having a problem with a ball group and you don't have the numbers to take them on - simply go where they're not.

AstroST

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Its a multiplayer game. There's nothing wrong with people playing the game as a group - AS INTENDED.

People who complain about ball groups simply don't understand the difficulty it takes to coordinate with 11 other parties - and to find players who are unselfish enough to wear sets that are all about group synergy rather than individual combat effectiveness. If you're having a problem with a ball group and you don't have the numbers to take them on - simply go where they're not.

So you say that following a crown and just spamming aoe and smart heals all the time is very difficult.
A ball group to be good just need one person to be good, the one that tell everyone what to wear and what to do.
I have tried it a couple of times and was so mind numbing boring that I lost every interest very fast because you are not someone that have to think, you just need to do what you are told to do, like a bot.