Feelings about forced group activities

Hoghorn

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Hoghorn wrote: »

i think requiring grouping for endeavours is one small, crude way zos is trying to get this game's solo players to form those connections.

Or...

They are, under the guise of "adding more variety", actually discouraging players from doing endeavours.

Whatever they might say endeavours are for, we all know that it is to get round loot boxes, sorry crates. However, they also went on to say that endeavours would be things you do in any case... you earn without even trying!

Except that's not so true anymore - the grouping tasks are the thin end of the wedge compared to what was shown on the PTS. Instead of just "complete a dungeon" we get "complete a dungeon with a companion" and "complete dungeon x with a guild mate". More variety right?

But in reality more restrictions.

I don't believe for one moment that ZoS are trying to get people to group up, or join guilds, or play with companions (apart from buying the DLC of course). I think they want to wean people off the endeavours.

Let me explain... at the start, once I found out about endeavours, I had a compulsion to do them (and I suspect others feel the same way). I now have 20+K seals, and can't find anything worth spending them on. So I was already beginning to lose interest in endeavours. As I said, it had become a compulsion but letting go a little was a liberation. Now they mess with the endeavours and I just can't be bothered. They won't make me do something I don't want to do just for the seals, and I suspect that's the whole idea. They want people in the crown store buying crates!

But ZoS are playing a dangerous game. For me, and I'm sure many others, another thread that tied me to the game has been cut.

I've been playing since beta, and subscribing throughout since the game went live. This year was the first time I didn't buy the chapter... and I feel OK about that too.

Another thread has been cut...

you would have been better served using my entire paragraph, including my opening statement: "the loot box workaround is how it started", cherrypicking is dishonest.

Number_51

I don't know if I would have used the word "encouraged" but I don't disagree with it either. God forbid we try something new and find out we like it (I wouldn't PVP ever if it hadn't been for the PVP Events). It's just another option used to appeal to the broadest amount of players as possible. Believe it or not the game doesn't cater to one or two specific play styles. If someone already knows they don't like a particular activity, there are 4 others to choose from, move along. But maybe, just maybe, one or two players says "hey I'll give that one a shot" and make a friend... in an MMo... oh the humanity.

SilverBride

jaws343 wrote: »

Most endeavors already are solo friendly though. So I don't quite get the problem.

Because endeavors such as "Complete an endeavor while grouped" have absolutely no benefit. The players do not even have to be near each other and no social interaction or group dynamics are involved. It is nothing more than a restriction and serves no purpose.

There are also many endeavors to do a trial or trials, run a dungeon or dungeons, participate in a battleground or battlegrounds. These are classicly group activities, so there are endeavors for groups.

jaws343

Also wanted to follow up on the what if an endeavor was to "solo a dungeon".

That'd be awesome. I already treat "do a dungeon" endeavors as solo feats. Giving more players a reason to go out and try to solo dungeons is a great thing since it increases the number of players in the game who actually feel confident with their builds and dungeon mechanics, which actually improves group play overall.

jaws343

SilverBride wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Most endeavors already are solo friendly though. So I don't quite get the problem.

Because endeavors such as "Complete an endeavor while grouped" have absolutely no benefit. The players do not even have to be near each other and no social interaction or group dynamics are involved. It is nothing more than a restriction and serves no purpose.

There are also many endeavors to do a trial or trials, run a dungeon or dungeons, participate in a battleground or battlegrounds. These are classicly group activities, so there are endeavors for groups.

They have just as much benefit as the endeavor that says just complete an endeavor. It's essentially just a gimme for the day/week. I don't understand complaining about an essential freebie.

SilverBride

jaws343 wrote: »

Also wanted to follow up on the what if an endeavor was to "solo a dungeon".

That'd be awesome. I already treat "do a dungeon" endeavors as solo feats. Giving more players a reason to go out and try to solo dungeons is a great thing since it increases the number of players in the game who actually feel confident with their builds and dungeon mechanics, which actually improves group play overall.

I like the idea too but would never encourage them to create such an endeavor because dungeons are traditionally group and those that cannot solo them would be left out for no good reason.

The endeavor should be the activity, not whether or not we prefer solo or group play.

I_killed_Vivec

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

As much as I love solo play and generally avoid grouping, the main issue I have with this is not the requirement to be grouped for some activity, but rather the characterization that we're being "forced" to group. We have the freedom to choose whether to do something or not. No one hovers behind me while I'm playing the game, telling me which activities I must engage in, or that I must group with someone. If there's an endeavor that requires being grouped, I can choose whether or not to complete that particular endeavor, just as I currently choose whether or not to complete other endeavors based on how much I like or dislike the associated activities.

While it is true that nobody is being "forced" to group up or join a guild, they are being told that they might not get all the seals each day if they don't.

Not for one moment is ZoS "encouraging" players to group, they are hoping people will lose interest in endeavours - and consequently have to visit the crown store to get the cosmetics they need (yes, I know, it's just a game, just pixels on a screen, nobody needs cosmetics).

It's all about making seals harder to get.

Aislinna

SilverBride wrote: »

How would players feel about an endeavor to solo a dungeon?

Same as every other endeavor:
* Many will solo it without a second thought.
* Some who can't solo it or don't want to solo it, will skip it and do any of the other 4 endeavors.
* A few will come to the forums and complain.

SilverBride

I went to the update 39 patch notes to see what exactly was said about the changes to endeavors and this is what it says:

New Endeavor Activity Types
We are introducing multiple new Endeavor types in Update 39, all of which may now show up in your daily and weekly Endeavor activities, offering you new ways to earn Seals of Endeavor.

There is no mention of encouraging group play, yet I know of at least 3 new endeavors that require a group or playing a game of ToT against other players (npcs don't count in this one).

New ways to earn seals would be things like catch so many fish, which has been requested. New activities rather than the same ones only requiring a group to complete them.

jaws343

The original endeavors announcement, where it touted catering to varying playstyles and activities. Not just solo players.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/59925



"These tasks vary across the different play styles and in-game activities. "
Meaning all activities, including grouping.

"Often, they’ll be things you’re already doing in your regular ESO adventures. "
Often, no always, often. Which means, sometimes things you don't normally do may come up.

"The number of daily or weekly Endeavors you can complete each day or week will vary, so be sure to check what the cap currently is and work out which of the available Endeavors you’d like to take on. This is to ensure that everybody, regardless of their play style, has an opportunity to earn the new currency without having to complete activities they don’t necessarily enjoy."
When those things come up that you don't wish to do, you can skip them. Or, you can go ahead and do them. That is a player by player choice. The encouragement comes from having these types of endeavors available in the first place.

"No matter your experience, playstyle, or edition, everybody can complete Endeavors and earn Seals."

Still remains true, even to this day. The day in question that had Group and do an endeavor also had:
Complete 2 quests
Complete a public dungeon group event
Excavate an antiquity
Gain 150 tel var

None of those are group required, or even remotely group necessary, activities. All of them provide alternatives to the only group option that day. And none of the updated endeavors take anything away from that either. Since they have launched I have seen exactly 1 time an endeavor be for a specific dungeon, and that 1 time it happened, that dungeon was a pledge. Which, again, is a perfectly valid daily activity that players do. As is Tot, as much as a vocal minority hate it, it is still a valid daily activity that plenty of player like to do.

ikzaa

curious, only in the forum people complain about that, at least in my 3 guilds and the zone chat I don't see anyone complaining.

Tandor

jaws343 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

This is an MMO. It's pretty clear that something encouraging you to group is intended to get you to play with others.

I've yet to hear a good reason why grouping and playing with others should be encouraged. MMO means nothing more than multiple players are in the game world at the same time. It does not mean that only social people should be playing it or that all players should spend time interacting with others.

Those that enjoy grouping will naturally gravitate toward group activities and those that prefer a solo experience won't. Neither way is more right than the other and I am frankly disturbed that solo play is being presented as something that needs to be corrected.

Isn't that all a bit contradictory though. If "neither way is more right that the other" then why is it such a problem that one of those ways of playing the game have an endeavor suited for their preferred way to play? Especially when solo play has far and away more ways to complete endeavors.

But pretty well all the Endeavours can be done in a group. Today's Endeavour to kill 10 rotting dead can be done in a group, it doesn't need to be qualified "while grouped" (or, for that matter, "with a guildmate") to enable the completion of that Endeavour. However, qualifying it in those terms would preclude it being done by someone who for perfectly valid reasons preferred to do it solo. That's why such Endeavours don't add greater diversity as claimed by ZOS to be the reason for introducing them, on the contrary they are more restrictive and therefore deter some players from doing them.

Tandor

SilverBride wrote: »

I went to the update 39 patch notes to see what exactly was said about the changes to endeavors and this is what it says:

New Endeavor Activity Types
We are introducing multiple new Endeavor types in Update 39, all of which may now show up in your daily and weekly Endeavor activities, offering you new ways to earn Seals of Endeavor.

There is no mention of encouraging group play, yet I know of at least 3 new endeavors that require a group or playing a game of ToT against other players (npcs don't count in this one).

New ways to earn seals would be things like catch so many fish, which has been requested. New activities rather than the same ones only requiring a group to complete them.

To add clarity to the patch notes, and in response to multiple pages of criticism of the new Endeavours on the PTS forum, Kevin said:-

" The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game."

Hence my various references in this and other threads to the stated purpose of these changes being to add greater diversity rather than the promotion of specific playstyles.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638210/u39-pts-endeavours-more-choice-is-less-it-seems/p11

shadyjane62

Since there is more "variety" in endeavors, the less I do them.

bulbousb16_ESO

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Sorry, but grouping up in an MMO is absolutely part of normal gameplay. It's literally in the name.

Uhhhh, no, it isn't. Playing an MMO does not inherently involve grouping. It is an option, like everything else.

Having said that, no one is forcing anyone to group. Endeavours are totally optional and even still, they don't require grouping. to complete.

SilverBride

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Endeavours are totally optional and even still, they don't require grouping. to complete.

But some of the new ones do require grouping. There was one yesterday to complete an endeavor while grouped and one recently to do I forget what but it required being grouped specifically with a guildmate.

Those are not new ways to earn seals. They are the old endeavors with an additional requirement added to it.

Sheezabeast

In Belkarth, where the events are held outside of town in that little area they created for it, there's an NPC that's entire quest is to just award you gold for looking at guild finder.

This inclusion of people in guilds/groups is something they're not heavy-handedly pushing, thankfully, but is something they're encouraging. Honestly if I coded/designed guild finder, I'd want the game to give subtle nods to it's functionality. The idea behind endeavors was to award us for things we likely were already doing. When you broaden the scope of people it accommodates, it makes sense. There are still people who practically live in Cyrodiil and don't leave due to queues. Being grouped with their guild or friends to complete an endeavor without having to leave Cyrodiil is nice. And there were other options of endeavors to pick from that didn't include being guilded up/grouped up.

NoticeMeArkay

SilverBride wrote: »

How would players feel about an endeavor to solo a dungeon?

I'm a fan of new obstacles and so far I'm only waiting for the Endless Archive to present me such. So yes, bring it.
I'll try soloing a dungeon. It will only entice me to improve my combat and survivability skills to achieve those seals.

SeaGtGruff

SilverBride wrote: »

How would players feel about an endeavor to solo a dungeon?

I'm guessing someone wouldn't like it and would complain, but it would be okay with me unless it was to solo one of the many dungeons I can't solo-- in which case I would try to complete one of the other endeavors instead.

peacenote

ESO has always employed a strategy of encouraging players to branch out. I believe that is a good thing for the game. They want you to try PvP, PvE... everything.

I do think there is a fine line between encouragement and punishment though, which is why I have been an advocate for leads dropping in more than one kind of activity, and am against the newer endeavors which are more restrictive.

A good example of encouragement is monster helms dropping in dungeons but being available at the Golden vendor. A bad example of encouragement, which felt like punishment, was a temporarily BIS raid mythic piece being locked behind fishing.

It isn't just grouping that is "forced" sometimes. And I think whether it feels "forced" or not has to do with how many other options there are to accomplish your goal.

My two cents.

SeaGtGruff

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

As much as I love solo play and generally avoid grouping, the main issue I have with this is not the requirement to be grouped for some activity, but rather the characterization that we're being "forced" to group. We have the freedom to choose whether to do something or not. No one hovers behind me while I'm playing the game, telling me which activities I must engage in, or that I must group with someone. If there's an endeavor that requires being grouped, I can choose whether or not to complete that particular endeavor, just as I currently choose whether or not to complete other endeavors based on how much I like or dislike the associated activities.

While it is true that nobody is being "forced" to group up or join a guild, they are being told that they might not get all the seals each day if they don't.

Not for one moment is ZoS "encouraging" players to group, they are hoping people will lose interest in endeavours - and consequently have to visit the crown store to get the cosmetics they need (yes, I know, it's just a game, just pixels on a screen, nobody needs cosmetics).

It's all about making seals harder to get.

I realize that this is what some players believe, but I don't believe it. And even if it were true, I just wouldn't care much.

As I've stated in other threads more than once, I have already had days where I missed an endeavor (i.e., could only complete 2 of 5) due to either accidental oversight or poor time management, have missed an entire day of endeavors due to internet outage, and on occasion have even deliberately skipped one of more endeavors in order to bring my running totals on PC NA and PC EU back into agreement.

Sure, I got upset the first time I missed out on an endeavor, but I very quickly got over it.

And despite not being able (and occasionally choosing to be unwilling) to collect every single possible Seals of Endeavor in the years since they were first introduced, I've managed to buy a large number of mounts-- or occasionally a pet-- with them, because I spend them whenever I get 3600 or more.

I have no desire to buy Crown Crates, and missing out on endeavors does not make me any more likely to buy Crown Crates. Yet I've still been able to buy a huge number of pets over the years with the gems I've gotten from free crates, because I've always bought the 16-gems pets, or occasionally a 40-gems pet or mount.

FantasticFreddie

SilverBride wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

This is an MMO. It's pretty clear that something encouraging you to group is intended to get you to play with others.

I've yet to hear a good reason why grouping and playing with others should be encouraged. MMO means nothing more than multiple players are in the game world at the same time. It does not mean that only social people should be playing it or that all players should spend time interacting with others.

Those that enjoy grouping will naturally gravitate toward group activities and those that prefer a solo experience won't. Neither way is more right than the other and I am frankly disturbed that solo play is being presented as something that needs to be corrected.

Isn't that all a bit contradictory though. If "neither way is more right that the other" then why is it such a problem that one of those ways of playing the game have an endeavor suited for their preferred way to play? Especially when solo play has far and away more ways to complete endeavors.

It's been very one sided. I've never seen anyone say that solo play should be encouraged but "MMO" and "encourage playing with others" has been repeated multiple times.

How would players feel about an endeavor to solo a dungeon?

There are literally arena endeavors.

SilverBride

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

There are literally arena endeavors.

There aren't any endeavors to solo group arenas, yet there are endeavors to group for what are normally solo activities.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Dungeons, Trials & Arenas section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

zaria

rpa wrote: »

Well today I grouped for endeavor to complete endeavour while grouped. The "group content" in question was turning in my writs which I would do any way but which does complete the 2 quests endeavor. Say cheeeese.

Ty for the obvious idea.

evan302

I'm amazed at the number of people who seem to think that grouping when you don't feel like it, for an activity that probably doesn't even need a group to complete is somehow good for you. Personally, I signed up to have fun, not personal interaction coaching.

Being in a group is not an activity and this change is bad for everyone as it gives everyone less choice.
Before, when asked to complete a dungeon, you could do it the obvious way and join a group, or you could solo it. Now you are going to have to do it in a group and maybe in a group with guild-mates. This won't be much fun if your guild is going through a dead patch or if you can only play when most people are offline.

Arizona_Steve

I found myself in the opposite situation last night when I was trying to complete a dungeon for the endeavor. I tried to solo Fungal Grotto I - but I will admit to sucking pretty bad at it. Died multiple times and only made it as far as the first dreugh boss.

So I put out a request in zone chat to see if anyone wanted to group up for the endeavor. Crickets.

Same problem with resurrecting a dead player (another endeavor). Since people generally don't die these days, there's the option of "mutual rezzing" - but again, finding someone who is willing to get themselves killed on zone chat is a bit of a non-starter too.

Wasn't the best night for endeavors (I don't PvP so killing another player is not an option).

Dojohoda

A few days ago we had: "earn an endeavor while grouped". I got that one 'accidentally'. The player that I was grouped with was not online.

SeaGtGruff

evan302 wrote: »

I'm amazed at the number of people who seem to think that grouping when you don't feel like it, for an activity that probably doesn't even need a group to complete is somehow good for you. Personally, I signed up to have fun, not personal interaction coaching.

Being in a group is not an activity and this change is bad for everyone as it gives everyone less choice.
Before, when asked to complete a dungeon, you could do it the obvious way and join a group, or you could solo it. Now you are going to have to do it in a group and maybe in a group with guild-mates. This won't be much fun if your guild is going through a dead patch or if you can only play when most people are offline.

I don't think anyone here has suggested that "forced grouping" is good for anyone. The fact is, we can still choose whether or not to do a specific endeavor; we aren't "forced" to do it.

As I've said before, I'm a solo player myself. I generally do not like doing things with a group, partly because I enjoy being able to run around wherever I want, doing whatever I feel like, in whatever manner I happen to be in the mood for, as opposed to making concessions for whatever everyone else in the group wants or expects.

Also, I find the action and combat to be very confusing and difficult to keep track of with a group, because most of the time there are so many colorful effects plastered all over the screen, and enemies attacking in multiple directions at once, that it's harder for me to follow things. Give me a nice solo dungeon run with non-flashy two-handed melee fights, please!

But afaik the new "while grouped" endeavors are not replacing the older ones; they are being added into the mix, and the older
ones are still being left in the mix. So I'm personally okay with their existence, whether or not I'm likely to choose them. I very rarely choose to do any Battlegrounds endeavors, but I can still appreciate that they're there for the players who do enjoy the Battlegrounds. It's okay with me that 100%, or even 75%, of the endeavors aren't catering exclusively to players like me.

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

I found myself in the opposite situation last night when I was trying to complete a dungeon for the endeavor. I tried to solo Fungal Grotto I - but I will admit to sucking pretty bad at it. Died multiple times and only made it as far as the first dreugh boss.

So I put out a request in zone chat to see if anyone wanted to group up for the endeavor. Crickets.

Same problem with resurrecting a dead player (another endeavor). Since people generally don't die these days, there's the option of "mutual rezzing" - but again, finding someone who is willing to get themselves killed on zone chat is a bit of a non-starter too.

Wasn't the best night for endeavors (I don't PvP so killing another player is not an option).

I'm not sure if it was last night, but I was in Stonefalls the other day for something else and saw someone post something like that in zone chat. I was tempted to reply and join, but I was on my way to another zone and figured that other people would probably be responding. Now I wish I'd stayed and helped.

Word of advice, sometimes the way you phrase something in zone chat can affect how others respond (or not). If you need help with a world boss or dungeon, I think it's generally best to just say "need help with xyz" instead of posing it as "anyone feel like doing xyz for the endeavor?" That's because anyone who's already completed their endeavors (as was the case with me) might be less inclined to join in, whereas a cry for help might get a response because then everyone knows you need help and it's likely that someone will show up to help.

Arizona_Steve

Probably was me... and typically I won't ask for help without making an honest attempt to complete something solo. Still, I'm no expert on zone chat or any of the group stuff, so point taken with the wording