The amount of fake tanks and fake healers is ridiculous

ForzaRammer

BlueRaven wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Molydeus wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

And even when you enter the queue as a "true" healer (SPC/MA/Spaulder), and you end up doing 40%+ of the dps by just using your wall/shards/crushing shock (all part of the normal healer kit), in full healer CP setup.

The tank doesn't know mechanics, and the other two DPS are effectively doing little more damage than the healer. (All CP1400+, which not a great measure, means they've at least played for a while)

You leave the group, as it's clear you're not going to be able to clear the vet hard mode with them, after helping carry them all to the last boss (ressed them at least 20+ times, did all the mechanics on other bosses, etc...), but they refuse to do the mechanics (and it's a fight that you MUST do the mechanics on)... and get a whisper from one saying "Enjoy the triple report"

People abusing the report function, queuing for things they aren't prepared for AND are unwilling to learn how to do the content (it's the latter that's the biggest problem)...

Going to be extremely upset if those reports get "actioned" just because there were apparently 3 of them in a short span...

If you're worried about that just run logs in vet dungeons and you can link the report in response to any actions in the future.I don't think you're in any danger from the coordinated report and if you screenshot the DM you can show it was vindictive.

It would be the first action on my in-game account (had some forum run-ins, but they are separate). But it's the "Hey, you've been banned for 72 hours"... you try and get support to look into it... and it takes them 4 days to respond, by which time your suspension is over, you've lost 3 days of playtime and there's nothing they can do to compensate for it.

The system is backwards, and the litany of complaints I've seen for similar situations has me slightly nervous... no matter how much "proof" I have.

The fact you waited that long to call them out, is 100% letting these subpar players become more entitled.

I call these people out < 5 minutes into the dungeon.

I just reported 2 fake roles rhe other day who were not only fake roles but absolutely sucked at trying to speed run and kept dying. I think it's very fair to call these kind of people out and get them Punished.

W/e man, i have no issues with how you treat fake tank.

My issue with you is that you (and people like you) don’t treat fake DD the same way you treat fake tanks.

You don’t even acknowledge the problems real tanks (like me) encounter, which is more prevalent than the problem (fake tank) you encounter.

Just selective bias and double standard.

You don't even realize that you have the same bias. Your perspective is different than everyone else's BECAUSE you are a tank. Fake tanks are a REAL problem that a LOT of people experience. "Fake dps" isn't a thing though; you're thinking of bad or poor dps, which isn't the same thing as dps queuing as tanks or heals to skip the queue.

You want me to acknowledge the problems you face, which I did already.
And when i bring up the problems i encounter, you turn it down.
That's not bias, that's asking to be treated fairly.

10-15% the dd i get from que, are indifferent or worse compare to a companion.
A human DD that's not even clearly better than a bot, is definitely a fake.

Fake dps is not a real thing. Bad dps is and is an entirely different problem.

A person doing low dps in a dps role is not “faking” anything. They are just not good at their role.

Fake tanks and healers are people who queue for those rolls, who “know” what those roles require, and have zero desire to fulfill it.

No one is taking a dps role as a “shortcut” to getting a dungeon run in quickly. Fake tanks and healers are.

It’s the ‘everyone is a dd’ again. I am stating it yet again why it is unreasonable.

1. That’s your definition, not a universally accepted standard
2. Such definition is unfair to support players. All taunt do damage, if a tank has to taunt, he has to do damage. Then tank is a subset of DD
3. Your idea on distribution of responsibility is simply giving next to nothing to the DD and way too much to the tank

1. Fake DPS is YOUR term, not a universally accepted one. And not an issue for the what this thread is about. if you feel it is an important issue (it isn't), you are free to create a unique thread about it.
2. No, it's fine for support players.
3. I don't know what it is that you are talking about here. Do you even know what a fake tank is? It's someone who signs up as a tank, but uses a bow, or a 2 handed sword the whole time. As opposed to someone who signs up as a dps and is just bad at it.

All of your arguments sound like a big deflection of the actual problem. The problem is that there are people who do not taunt or heal, (or if the they do heal it's incidental) ON PURPOSE!!!!! They have no desire to actually play there respective roles AT ALL!!! They just want a shorter queue. They just want to skip the line because they think tanks and healers are not needed for dungeons. Just because there is a dd out there that does not live up to your own personal expectations is a "you" problem.

If someone wants to dps with a sword and shield or a healing staff, that is not being a fake anything, they just don't know any better. THAT IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THAN SOMEONE GAMING THE SYSTEM IN THEIR FAVOR!

1. The existence of fake or real is not just my term, decision boundary always exist for any kind of classification, my decision boundary and yours only differ in value.
‘every DD is real DD’ is equivalent to decision boundary of zero, i stated why it’s unfair and i advocate for a non zero decision boundary.

2. At least come up with an excuse for your proposed unequal distribution of responsibility, don’t just say ‘it’s fine’

3. If you believe a tank need a taunt, since all taunt do damage, your ridiculous set of decision boundaries imply ‘tank is also DD’

4. Rather someone has desire to fulfill responsibility is not something can be objectively measured.
You claim a dd who is worse than a companion has different desire than a tank who doesn’t taunt, I don’t agree, i see none of these people trying.

And don’t accuse me of deflecting, i am not advocating for ‘zero decision boundary for all’, i am completely fine with your decision boundary on tanks, i am advocating for ‘non zero decision boundary for all’

ForzaRammer

kurbbie_s wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Dragonredux wrote: »

I know this isn't the first thread and it and it isn't the last.

Honestly, the epidemic has gotten worse over the past few years. In addition, I feel the new player experience for dungeons is really hampered because of this.

I will advocate story mode dungeons again this point. Due to people who rush, new players hopelessly try to keep up with the group in a dungeon they don't know the layout of. Have some quests be incomplete and having to redo them due to pushing too fast (looking at you Crypt of Hearts 1).

At this point, I rather duo with my companions (except Direfrost because screw giving them good utility) for the base game dungeons. People tend to forget that Normal dungeons are open and built for everyone. I except 20k dps from a game filled with new and casual players that doesn't do a good job at telling people how to do damage. If low damage trouble this much, please use Oreyn's build suggestion or some other dps tank hybrid build.

I'm half tempted to say throw the 10 transmute reward in veteran and give normal the old transmute reward back. People usually have the brains not the fake the roles and have some effort put in and a kick will go through compared to normal.

How about hold DD responsible instead of letting the real tank sit through their [snip]

responsible for what. Whats a healer? Whats a DD and whats a tank? If a healer has a heal on, then im a healer, if a PC has a skill that damages theyre a DD, if you have high health and can pull a target, whats the problem? If my dps is pulling just as well as a tank, whats the problem?

[edited to remove quote]

If your dps is equal or less than a regular tank, you would be worse than a companion, it would actually be beneficial for the group to replace you with a bot

PrincessOfThieves

BlueRaven wrote: »

3. I don't know what it is that you are talking about here. Do you even know what a fake tank is? It's someone who signs up as a tank, but uses a bow, or a 2 handed sword the whole time. As opposed to someone who signs up as a dps and is just bad at it.

Someone who's not using a dps build/abilities is not a bad dd, they're not a dd at all. Someone who's just not very good will probably have 15k or something and that's not a problem in normals and easy vets, fake dd is much worse than that, they're usually in 0-5k range and their "builds" look like this: https://i.ibb.co/S60QG3m/reqs.jpg( it wasn't a newbie btw, they had the highest cp in group).
It is hypocritical to demand something from supports (at least a taunt or some heals) while not asking dds to at least try.
And it is very much related to this topic because people like this make supports not want to pug, making dps queues longer, which in turn makes fake healing and tanking more appealing.

MidniteOwl1913

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

3. I don't know what it is that you are talking about here. Do you even know what a fake tank is? It's someone who signs up as a tank, but uses a bow, or a 2 handed sword the whole time. As opposed to someone who signs up as a dps and is just bad at it.

Someone who's not using a dps build/abilities is not a bad dd, they're not a dd at all. Someone who's just not very good will probably have 15k or something and that's not a problem in normals and easy vets, fake dd is much worse than that, they're usually in 0-5k range and their "builds" look like this: https://i.ibb.co/S60QG3m/reqs.jpg( it wasn't a newbie btw, they had the highest cp in group).
It is hypocritical to demand something from supports (at least a taunt or some heals) while not asking dds to at least try.
And it is very much related to this topic because people like this make supports not want to pug, making dps queues longer, which in turn makes fake healing and tanking more appealing.

So there are only 4 roles, if they are not a DPS what are they?

MidniteOwl1913

Amottica wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I see fake DD way more often than fake support, in both proportion and total

Totally agree. I see less people complaining about fake DD no idea why

Because it's not a thing, just a silly red herring.

There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously just like there are real tanks and real healers who are not very good at their role.

Being a liar and cheating the system to jump the queue is a whole different issue.

It absolutely is a thing. I queued for vet Dread Cellar the other day, and had a dd just spamming bow light attacks with a skill or two every 10 or so attacks. And they weren't even low cp.

How can someone be called a dd if they're doing less damage than a healer?

See above "There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously." There ARE terrible players in this game.

A fake role in this game is done to gain an advantage in the PUG queue. Fake healers and tanks are a thing because you get a group faster - instantly usually in fact. Queuing as DPS means you have a 10 minute wait on average. Faking DPS to get in a group slower would be brain-dead level stupid.

Faking roles is all about jumping to the front of the queue. This is why I don't buy the pathetic "fake DPS" red herrings many of you think is a good counter argument to rationalize being a lying queue jumper.

I'm not "queue jumping". I'm just saying that people who queue as dds and don't even try to do meaningful dps (at least more than an average healer) aren't really dds, they're just people who are either clueless or looking for a free carry. Dd means damage dealer, not just someone who's not a healer nor a tank.
These people are the reason why healers and tanks try to avoid solo queues. It is just not fun to play when you get 2 of those.
And I find it really weird that dds are almost never judged the way support players are.

I've tanked for groups where literally everyone was dying repeatedly and doing dookie damage. When we got on party, I actually learned that one of the DDs was an older woman (sounded old enough to be my mom). I'm patient as hell so I stuck with them and we eventually cleared that vet dungeon. It's not fun sometimes but in order for people to advance in this game, the more experienced players must be willing to carry groups and teach others. If people want to be selfish, they shouldn't play an MMORPG.

I look at it as paying it forward. People helped me, boy did I need help at first. ESO is my first ever video game (it's my retirement hobby) and I had a lot to learn. But more experienced players took time and helped me. I appreciated it then and now I try to do the same for others.

Guilds are great for this. It is a much better place for learning than a random group as not all are that patient. In fact, that is how I got into tanking long ago. I started tanking to help guild members get comfortable with healing. I had basically learned how to grab a group of trash and tank bosses by seeing how tanks did it right and how some did it very wrong.

I think that guilds are one of the best things about the game. I'm in 4 mostly for the trader, but I love watching the zone chat. I unfortunately am not a particularly social person and so don't get the most out of the awesome guilds I belong to. I admit that's on me.

PrincessOfThieves

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

3. I don't know what it is that you are talking about here. Do you even know what a fake tank is? It's someone who signs up as a tank, but uses a bow, or a 2 handed sword the whole time. As opposed to someone who signs up as a dps and is just bad at it.

Someone who's not using a dps build/abilities is not a bad dd, they're not a dd at all. Someone who's just not very good will probably have 15k or something and that's not a problem in normals and easy vets, fake dd is much worse than that, they're usually in 0-5k range and their "builds" look like this: https://i.ibb.co/S60QG3m/reqs.jpg( it wasn't a newbie btw, they had the highest cp in group).
It is hypocritical to demand something from supports (at least a taunt or some heals) while not asking dds to at least try.
And it is very much related to this topic because people like this make supports not want to pug, making dps queues longer, which in turn makes fake healing and tanking more appealing.

So there are only 4 roles, if they are not a DPS what are they?

Just someone tagging along, I guess.

Amottica

Diundriel wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

ruengdet2515 wrote: »

Not matter fake or not I just need fast run for nDUN. and dont want to run with CP<1000

You need to have realistic expectations. If you’re queuing in a random normal your’e generally getting under players far below CP1000 because that’s who normal dungeons are aimed at. Expecting otherwise is akin to trying to find a date at a high school and getting angry that everyone is under age.

I think you’re expectation regarding CP would be more likely met in a random vet but then you’re not getting a speed run.

thanks to their transmute stone crystals you have people who wanna do fast normal dungeons to grind them on all their chars^^ probably making those tradable would help .... and reduce numbers of people grinding normal dungeons...

If you could sell them then it would certainly reduce the number of people grinding normal dungeons since many would buy them instead. However, it would likely increase the number of people running 18 alts through, many poorly geared and may not even know how to play them decently. They will want to make bank selling the crystals.

So it is not a solution.

Xarc

a fake tank is someone who doesnt taunt the boss
a fake heal is someone who doesnt heal the group mates

now, we can say a DD with a taunt and with tank role is ok.
and we can say a DD with some heals and with healer role is ok.

otherwise it's not.
And the solution is vote kick.

People are frustrated because someone identified to a role lied to the game. It's legit.
Now imagine if ZOS deletes roles in dungeons.

Zyva

What @Xarc said, the vote-kick option exists for a reason.

Recently, I got so fed up with people pulling mobs for no reason and running ahead that I've just begun leaving the dungeon if I see it, or dieing and letting them pull me to each boss because I have no desire to participate in the shenanigans.

N00BxV1

Sarannah wrote: »

Low DPS is the result of fake tanks, as players can't learn their role anymore. We are talking about normal dungeons, where players still need to learn groupplay and how their role functions. Which they can't do now, because many some idiots use those to speedrun for rewards!

This event I have done(tanked) over 40 normal dungeons so far, and only three groups had low DPS. One of those groups didn't improve, but it was a new dungeon so maybe mechanics had something to do with it. Another had low DPS on the first boss, and when we were on the third boss, the DPS was already high(people learn their roles quickly if you let them). And I had a group with ok'ish DPS, which wasn't bad but not good either.

To me it seems those that complain about bad/fake DPS in their groups, are the ones responsible for it. And when you are the cause, it is going to keep happening to you!

This is a very unfair assumption to make. One of the main causes of low DPS this patch is because zos nerfed everyone's damage, especially the mid to low end. And it is definitely noticeable in a lot of random groups...

I don't complain about other people's low dps often because I usually just deal with it. Pug life. But there isn't much else that I can do to help increase some random player's dps any more than I currently am...

Depending on what I have equipped, I'm providing Major Breach, Minor Breach, Major Maim, Minor Maim, Major Vulnerability, Major Force, Major Heroism, Minor Courage, Minor Brutality, Minor Protection, Minor Endurance, Minor Lifesteal, Minor Magickasteal, Infused Crusher from an Ice Staff's Blockade, +260 Weapon and Spell Damage from Spaulder of Ruin, up to +6% more Flame Damage from Engulfing Flames, Damage Shields, AOE Heals, Heals over time, Burst Heals, Burning, Poisoned, Chilled, other status effects, Immobilize, Snares, Stuns, Synergies for resources, etc...

And I've found that with a lot of random groups it just doesn't make any difference to their dps no matter what I provide for them... Some people just have yet to get good...

ZashuNina

This just happened to me. My partner and I are both dps mains, and we queued as such for a random and got one of the new dungeons. The duo that we go in the random were a fake healer/tank. And they got mad at us because we asked if they were fake and went on a spiel of 'why should they wait 20 minutes for dps queue?' and how they 'can solo any dungeon'.

I have my doubts, seeing how they both died instantly to the first group of mobs, but go off I guess?

When it comes to the base game, it doesn't matter much but if you queue as a fake healer or tank when you are at a higher CP, do think about how your selfishness of wanting to skip the queue will affect the dungeon. Consider how one has a high chance to get a DLC dungeon too.

Hapexamendios

Been pugging on my tank during the event. If I come across speed runners, I just walk. Mobs are no threat to me and I'll catch up eventually. On dungeons where they'll pull you in boss fights, I'll spectate until asked nicely to help.

ForzaRammer

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

3. I don't know what it is that you are talking about here. Do you even know what a fake tank is? It's someone who signs up as a tank, but uses a bow, or a 2 handed sword the whole time. As opposed to someone who signs up as a dps and is just bad at it.

Someone who's not using a dps build/abilities is not a bad dd, they're not a dd at all. Someone who's just not very good will probably have 15k or something and that's not a problem in normals and easy vets, fake dd is much worse than that, they're usually in 0-5k range and their "builds" look like this: https://i.ibb.co/S60QG3m/reqs.jpg( it wasn't a newbie btw, they had the highest cp in group).
It is hypocritical to demand something from supports (at least a taunt or some heals) while not asking dds to at least try.
And it is very much related to this topic because people like this make supports not want to pug, making dps queues longer, which in turn makes fake healing and tanking more appealing.

So there are only 4 roles, if they are not a DPS what are they?

Union of 3 sets don’t need to be the whole space, an element belong in none of the three sets can be classified as ‘freeloader’

Haza_212

Don't need a healer for normal dungeons, a DPS with a taunt is enough to be a tank, roll dodge is better than block, also did I mention it's normal? A bunch of lvl 10s can do almost any dungeon in the game on normal.

Also, don't get upset by people rushing through the dungeon, just keep up, if they die to mobs just laugh at them. It's really not a big deal at all.


4 DPS with a single heal each is the optimal group for all normal dungeons. Damage and mechanics are king.

MidniteOwl1913

Haza_212 wrote: »

Don't need a healer for normal dungeons, a DPS with a taunt is enough to be a tank, roll dodge is better than block, also did I mention it's normal? A bunch of lvl 10s can do almost any dungeon in the game on normal.

Also, don't get upset by people rushing through the dungeon, just keep up, if they die to mobs just laugh at them. It's really not a big deal at all.


4 DPS with a single heal each is the optimal group for all normal dungeons. Damage and mechanics are king.

You don't need a healer or a tank. And all those high CP players speed running normal for rewards don't need a healer or a tank, but lower tier players who are in normal dungeons to learn (the major point of them, they are not there to make quick rewards for the upper crust) need a tank and a healer.

newtinmpls

For me

I want a Tank that taunts AND pulls.

I want a healer that regularly throws out heals, and if there is a conflict about who to heal, supports the tank.

I want DD's who do NOT run ahead and aggro, but wait till the tank starts stacking and pulling and use their AoE's effectively.

Jarl_Ironheart

newtinmpls wrote: »

For me

I want a Tank that taunts AND pulls.

I want a healer that regularly throws out heals, and if there is a conflict about who to heal, supports the tank.

I want DD's who do NOT run ahead and aggro, but wait till the tank starts stacking and pulling and use their AoE's effectively.

All day everyday. When I'm tanking, let me stack all the adds first then the DDs can go nuts. Don't try to run on ahead and show everyone your a solo God waving your big deeps around.

tmbrinks

newtinmpls wrote: »

For me

I want a Tank that taunts AND pulls.

I want a healer that regularly throws out heals, and if there is a conflict about who to heal, supports the tank.

I want DD's who do NOT run ahead and aggro, but wait till the tank starts stacking and pulling and use their AoE's effectively.

So you expect a top-tier performance from the tank and healer... but essentially the bare minimum from the DPS... casting a skill?

That's how we have the issues we have. Many here have literally no expectations on the DPS, so many of them are terrible, forcing the tanks and healers to work double time... leading them to not want to queue, because they don't want to spend 45 minutes to clear normal Fungal Grotto I because the two "DPS" are bow LA spamming their way through the dungeon.

If you have that specific of expectations... you need to form your own group. Plain and simple.

redlink1979

tmbrinks wrote: »

(...)Many here have literally no expectations on the DPS, so many of them are terrible, forcing the tanks and healers to work double time... (...)

^ Me, half the times I queue as a healer or a tank.

BlueRaven

tmbrinks wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

For me

I want a Tank that taunts AND pulls.

I want a healer that regularly throws out heals, and if there is a conflict about who to heal, supports the tank.

I want DD's who do NOT run ahead and aggro, but wait till the tank starts stacking and pulling and use their AoE's effectively.

So you expect a top-tier performance from the tank and healer... but essentially the bare minimum from the DPS... casting a skill?

That's how we have the issues we have. Many here have literally no expectations on the DPS, so many of them are terrible, forcing the tanks and healers to work double time... leading them to not want to queue, because they don't want to spend 45 minutes to clear normal Fungal Grotto I because the two "DPS" are bow LA spamming their way through the dungeon.

If you have that specific of expectations... you need to form your own group. Plain and simple.

A bad dps, (as is a bad tank, or a bad healer), is an entirely different issue than a fake tank or healer.

tmbrinks

BlueRaven wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

For me

I want a Tank that taunts AND pulls.

I want a healer that regularly throws out heals, and if there is a conflict about who to heal, supports the tank.

I want DD's who do NOT run ahead and aggro, but wait till the tank starts stacking and pulling and use their AoE's effectively.

So you expect a top-tier performance from the tank and healer... but essentially the bare minimum from the DPS... casting a skill?

That's how we have the issues we have. Many here have literally no expectations on the DPS, so many of them are terrible, forcing the tanks and healers to work double time... leading them to not want to queue, because they don't want to spend 45 minutes to clear normal Fungal Grotto I because the two "DPS" are bow LA spamming their way through the dungeon.

If you have that specific of expectations... you need to form your own group. Plain and simple.

A bad dps, (as is a bad tank, or a bad healer), is an entirely different issue than a fake tank or healer.

As stated, the very reason there are people who "fake" heal/tank, is because of bad dps.

Just because it's impossible to be a "fake" dps, because "any dps is still a dps"... doesn't mean you get to handwave away the entire argument.

My original point stands. People are expecting top-tier performances out of the tank and healer every time, and have zero expectations on DPS.

Please queue as a tank in base game vet dungeons, I really think everybody should experience that 12-minute-long boss pull because the DPS are doing less damage than your wall and taunt are.

That said, I know people have accused me of being a "fake healer" in dungeons... because they constantly stood in AoEs, and missed 1-shot mechanics. I make the conscious decision to do more damage, because constantly healing/ressing that DPS that is oblivious to mechanics would actually cause the fights to take longer. They don't notice that my Wall has a debuff glyph on, that I'm casting Ele-drain, and that I constantly have radiating regen on... but they still stand in red, and then accuse me of "not healing". They accuse the tank of "not taunting" when they are limited to 1 taunt per second by the game.

I would guess that at least 90% of the complaints about "fake" healers and tanks are because of issues like this.

I've run at least 200 dungeons over the last few days.... I've had the 1, ONE!!, fake role I explained earlier.

ForzaRammer

BlueRaven wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

For me

I want a Tank that taunts AND pulls.

I want a healer that regularly throws out heals, and if there is a conflict about who to heal, supports the tank.

I want DD's who do NOT run ahead and aggro, but wait till the tank starts stacking and pulling and use their AoE's effectively.

So you expect a top-tier performance from the tank and healer... but essentially the bare minimum from the DPS... casting a skill?

That's how we have the issues we have. Many here have literally no expectations on the DPS, so many of them are terrible, forcing the tanks and healers to work double time... leading them to not want to queue, because they don't want to spend 45 minutes to clear normal Fungal Grotto I because the two "DPS" are bow LA spamming their way through the dungeon.

If you have that specific of expectations... you need to form your own group. Plain and simple.

A bad dps, (as is a bad tank, or a bad healer), is an entirely different issue than a fake tank or healer.

Arthritis and diabetes are also entirely different issues. Doesn’t mean you should only care about one and ignore the other.

BlueRaven

tmbrinks wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

For me

I want a Tank that taunts AND pulls.

I want a healer that regularly throws out heals, and if there is a conflict about who to heal, supports the tank.

I want DD's who do NOT run ahead and aggro, but wait till the tank starts stacking and pulling and use their AoE's effectively.

So you expect a top-tier performance from the tank and healer... but essentially the bare minimum from the DPS... casting a skill?

That's how we have the issues we have. Many here have literally no expectations on the DPS, so many of them are terrible, forcing the tanks and healers to work double time... leading them to not want to queue, because they don't want to spend 45 minutes to clear normal Fungal Grotto I because the two "DPS" are bow LA spamming their way through the dungeon.

If you have that specific of expectations... you need to form your own group. Plain and simple.

A bad dps, (as is a bad tank, or a bad healer), is an entirely different issue than a fake tank or healer.

As stated, the very reason there are people who "fake" heal/tank, is because of bad dps.

Just because it's impossible to be a "fake" dps, because "any dps is still a dps"... doesn't mean you get to handwave away the entire argument.

My original point stands. People are expecting top-tier performances out of the tank and healer every time, and have zero expectations on DPS.

Please queue as a tank in base game vet dungeons, I really think everybody should experience that 12-minute-long boss pull because the DPS are doing less damage than your wall and taunt are.

That said, I know people have accused me of being a "fake healer" in dungeons... because they constantly stood in AoEs, and missed 1-shot mechanics. I make the conscious decision to do more damage, because constantly healing/ressing that DPS that is oblivious to mechanics would actually cause the fights to take longer. They don't notice that my Wall has a debuff glyph on, that I'm casting Ele-drain, and that I constantly have radiating regen on... but they still stand in red, and then accuse me of "not healing". They accuse the tank of "not taunting" when they are limited to 1 taunt per second by the game.

I would guess that at least 90% of the complaints about "fake" healers and tanks are because of issues like this.

I've run at least 200 dungeons over the last few days.... I've had the 1, ONE!!, fake role I explained earlier.

“As stated, the very reason there are people who "fake" heal/tank, is because of bad dps.“

Oh? So it’s ok to fake tank or heal now? It’s someone else’s fault that when the player wants to skip the line? They know going in all of the other members will be substandard?

Please. Don’t justify bad actions on the “possibility” that others may not be up to par. Fake tanks and fake healers just want to skip the line in the mistaken belief their time is more important than anyone else’s.

Vulkunne

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

I've been leveling a Necro tank lately trying to get him to my CP. I normally grind dungeons to keep my tanking skulls from getting rusty and lately the amount of PUGs I get into where the "healer" is a Orc or high elf with a inferno staff or two hander with no healing skills that runs on ahead of the group is too many to count. When I tried leveling as a dps the amount of players who put tank role where of course annoying DPS who can't be bothered to wait in que so they take the tank role and THEN try to make the dungeon race. It's even more aggravating when the fake tanks/healers don't even finish mobs. They aggro them then run on ahead expecting you to do kill them.

This is such a serious issue because new players will see this behavior a lot and some will think it's acceptable and the way things are done. But then they get into a hard dungeon and they just ruin the run for everyone or they get frustrated when they pull the adds instead of the tank and just die. I'm not sure how ZOS will address this issue if they ever will but it's become so much worse than it was when I started in 2017.

Also, stop running ahead of your tanks, let us group up all the enemies then we can AOE melt them instead of running around the room like a skooma filled madman trying to kill some enemies at a time. It'll make the dungeon go much faster than you acting like it's the fortune 500.

EDIT: My jabs at the Orcs and High Elves was a joke so don't dig too deeply into that or take offense unless you want to make a joke about my people the Nords. Then by all means.

@Jarl_Ironheart

Hi so this is not the player's fault. What you are witnessing is a biproduct of the net effect from mythic items, as well as other sets, on the game. (Personally, I think there's too many sets and I know that mythic items turn everyone into their own superhero as well so.) In short, the Tank role is just no longer necessary for many dungeons runs.

Traditionally, this experience was very different as I used to Tank these runs but no more because of reasons stated. There is nothing you can do about it, in fact letting DPS folks role as Tank is actually preferrable for many runs because ZOS has made the Tank role obsolete anyways, so why not take the extra damage instead? This is something only they can fix, it's something we saw coming however whether or not this is a mistake (or perhaps a necessary evil to something better) only time will tell as in some instances the mythic items are not only helpful but necessary.

tmbrinks

BlueRaven wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

For me

I want a Tank that taunts AND pulls.

I want a healer that regularly throws out heals, and if there is a conflict about who to heal, supports the tank.

I want DD's who do NOT run ahead and aggro, but wait till the tank starts stacking and pulling and use their AoE's effectively.

So you expect a top-tier performance from the tank and healer... but essentially the bare minimum from the DPS... casting a skill?

That's how we have the issues we have. Many here have literally no expectations on the DPS, so many of them are terrible, forcing the tanks and healers to work double time... leading them to not want to queue, because they don't want to spend 45 minutes to clear normal Fungal Grotto I because the two "DPS" are bow LA spamming their way through the dungeon.

If you have that specific of expectations... you need to form your own group. Plain and simple.

A bad dps, (as is a bad tank, or a bad healer), is an entirely different issue than a fake tank or healer.

As stated, the very reason there are people who "fake" heal/tank, is because of bad dps.

Just because it's impossible to be a "fake" dps, because "any dps is still a dps"... doesn't mean you get to handwave away the entire argument.

My original point stands. People are expecting top-tier performances out of the tank and healer every time, and have zero expectations on DPS.

Please queue as a tank in base game vet dungeons, I really think everybody should experience that 12-minute-long boss pull because the DPS are doing less damage than your wall and taunt are.

That said, I know people have accused me of being a "fake healer" in dungeons... because they constantly stood in AoEs, and missed 1-shot mechanics. I make the conscious decision to do more damage, because constantly healing/ressing that DPS that is oblivious to mechanics would actually cause the fights to take longer. They don't notice that my Wall has a debuff glyph on, that I'm casting Ele-drain, and that I constantly have radiating regen on... but they still stand in red, and then accuse me of "not healing". They accuse the tank of "not taunting" when they are limited to 1 taunt per second by the game.

I would guess that at least 90% of the complaints about "fake" healers and tanks are because of issues like this.

I've run at least 200 dungeons over the last few days.... I've had the 1, ONE!!, fake role I explained earlier.

“As stated, the very reason there are people who "fake" heal/tank, is because of bad dps.“

Oh? So it’s ok to fake tank or heal now? It’s someone else’s fault that when the player wants to skip the line? They know going in all of the other members will be substandard?

Please. Don’t justify bad actions on the “possibility” that others may not be up to par. Fake tanks and fake healers just want to skip the line in the mistaken belief their time is more important than anyone else’s.

But making the healers/tanks spend 45 minutes (or suffer a 15-minute penalty for leaving) because the DPS can't be bothered to even try is okay?

Have you ever queued as a healer or tank? There are far more "bad" DPS that waste the time of the others than there are fakes. Again. ONE fake in 200+ runs.

Please.

TybaltKaine

Okay, so I didn't read all 9 pages of responses, take that information when viewing my statement here.

I think, first, that a lot of the issue we have stems from the fact that there is a sense of elitism in this game when it comes to DPS. There are quite a few players who fall into the Skinner's Box of "Make numbers get bigger, get praised, elicit dopamine response", or as my wife likes to say "DPS make numbers go BRRRR".

Tanking is, to me, an inherently selfless role, as in you aren't there to see your numbers go into 5 digits when you crit, you don't want to have the final shot on the boss, and you aren't interested in proving how much damage you can do while someone else is just starting their rotation. Healing falls into the "selfless" descriptor as well, IMO.

This isn't to say that DPS is a selfish role, to be truly selfish would be to rely entirely on yourself, so a solo build going into a dungeon and sprinting ahead of anyone, even when they say, "I'm questing please wait" or "Stop fighting mobs I'm changing skills." (I was guilty of the second yesterday as I was overzealously trying to clear the beach on Tempest Island to make the run smooth for the quester in the group)

Tanking normal dungeons isn't, as some have stated, a crutch or useless. It is essential in teaching tanks how to perform their roles in later content. You learn mechanics on enemies that later appear as standard mob types in more difficult content, or who use similar moves later on. Learning how to counter certain moves, which moves have no counter or when to interrupt vs when to dodge is essential. Learning how to control the adds in the boss fight is essential. Knowing when to chain vs when to use inner rage, knowing that you can chain an atronach to pull aggro and then taunt it even though you don't drag it to you. Knowing how to combo from chains into choking talons on a DK. All of these lessons come from tanking normal dungeons.

Fake tanks aren't just making the game less fun for people, they are insulting the time that people put into learning these mechanics. They are telling those that take the time to learn the role that they are useless and shouldn't bother. That's never cool.

Yeah, you might save yourself a few minutes in the short term, but in the long term you may also be killing someone's enjoyment of a game that they spent their money and time on, in order to have fun, simply because you are more concerned with making the world conform to you.

That always sucks.

Tl;Dr - Tanking takes time and learning it is worthwhile, calling it useless is insulting.

Vulkunne

Quoted post has been removed.

We're not saying Tanking is wrong or unethical.

We're saying it isn't necessary for many dungeon runs. Case in point, I can slot undaunted Taunt on my DPS and do just fine while adding what is needed the most DPS.

This is a matter of necessity not narcism.

Klingenlied

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Been pugging on my tank during the event. If I come across speed runners, I just walk. Mobs are no threat to me and I'll catch up eventually. On dungeons where they'll pull you in boss fights, I'll spectate until asked nicely to help.

Behaviour like that just contributes to the problems and toxicity. I kinda get you where I am "relatively" slow with my tank - compared to speedrunning stam dd's, that is. Thus, when they run ahead and spread the mobs everywhere, I just think to myself: "guys, ye know, I got vateshran sword and shield just to make this go faster? Oh welll .. " - but I am more then happy to continue with those guys. Like waaay more happy then when the game puts me in a vet with low dps dd's. And I consider starting 20k (real dungeon - 6mil dummy! translate roughly to 40-50k normal dummy) bearable for lower end vets. For newer vets, if people are unable to do do at the very least 30k real dungeon dps .. na, not with me. Will be sluggish and I can assume people will have MASSIVE trouble with harder mechanics.

Of course, I never queue tank for normal dungeons (like real tank). Useless. And on the other hand, for vet, whenever I am on tank, there is what feels "billions" of players that wanna run with me. One of the issues ESO does face nowadays is an extreme tank shortage and an overall shortage of skilled players. So if you're a tank, you can at least choose whom you run with. So get yourself a decent Guild and stop running in pugs.

Vulkunne

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Okay, so I didn't read all 9 pages of responses, take that information when viewing my statement here.

I think, first, that a lot of the issue we have stems from the fact that there is a sense of elitism in this game when it comes to DPS. There are quite a few players who fall into the Skinner's Box of "Make numbers get bigger, get praised, elicit dopamine response", or as my wife likes to say "DPS make numbers go BRRRR".

Tanking is, to me, an inherently selfless role, as in you aren't there to see your numbers go into 5 digits when you crit, you don't want to have the final shot on the boss, and you aren't interested in proving how much damage you can do while someone else is just starting their rotation. Healing falls into the "selfless" descriptor as well, IMO.

This isn't to say that DPS is a selfish role, to be truly selfish would be to rely entirely on yourself, so a solo build going into a dungeon and sprinting ahead of anyone, even when they say, "I'm questing please wait" or "Stop fighting mobs I'm changing skills." (I was guilty of the second yesterday as I was overzealously trying to clear the beach on Tempest Island to make the run smooth for the quester in the group)

Tanking normal dungeons isn't, as some have stated, a crutch or useless. It is essential in teaching tanks how to perform their roles in later content. You learn mechanics on enemies that later appear as standard mob types in more difficult content, or who use similar moves later on. Learning how to counter certain moves, which moves have no counter or when to interrupt vs when to dodge is essential. Learning how to control the adds in the boss fight is essential. Knowing when to chain vs when to use inner rage, knowing that you can chain an atronach to pull aggro and then taunt it even though you don't drag it to you. Knowing how to combo from chains into choking talons on a DK. All of these lessons come from tanking normal dungeons.

Fake tanks aren't just making the game less fun for people, they are insulting the time that people put into learning these mechanics. They are telling those that take the time to learn the role that they are useless and shouldn't bother. That's never cool.

Yeah, you might save yourself a few minutes in the short term, but in the long term you may also be killing someone's enjoyment of a game that they spent their money and time on, in order to have fun, simply because you are more concerned with making the world conform to you.

That always sucks.

Tl;Dr - Tanking takes time and learning it is worthwhile, calling it useless is insulting.

No ZOS sets are insulting your time. People are just using the resources given to them by the Devs.

INM

Even if bad DDs aren't fake by definition, they aren't less harmful for other players' experience than fake healers/tanks. And even if such players don't have bad intentions behind their actions, they don't execute the role they signed for. According to logs I've been recording, most of them weren't even trying. It was in veteran dungeons btw and many of those players weren't newbies, they just didn't care about it. Just imagine that your tank dies every 20 seconds and when he is alive he loses a taunt half of time. That's pretty close to what I feel when I'm playing as a tank. Denying that dd issue impacts the population of real tanks and healers is self-delusioning.


Anyway, about the faking issue. I don't see many fakes in veteran dungeons, it's a more normal dungeons issue. It's hard to expect something different when you:
a) Encourage players with a precious reward.
b) Allow you to complete dungeons without proper roles.


Regarding first, running nrandoms is the most fastest and efficient way to obtain transmutes. At this point doing random dungeons is a chore you have to do. It's natural that people want to optimize it and do it faster. And faking random normals is the faster way. Solution? Remove transmutes from normals or increase the amount of them in vets. Or add more ways to grind them, currently nothing beats dungeons if you need many crystals in a short amount of time.


The second issue is a bit more interesting.
Imo, the core issue lies in the difficulty of content. Why would you need a proper tank if no enemies in normals possess danger to an average dd with 18k health. Why would you need a proper healer if all incoming damage can be healer with Surge alone. It works if you consider normal dungeons as a step before commiting veteran dungeons as it used to be. FG1 difficulty makes sense if you consider that it is meant to be done by level 10 players whose abilities and possibilities are limited. But it's no longer like that and the normal difficulty is considered a separate experience with almost a full spectrum of rewards. Allowing veterans to break into a sandbox and expecting from them to build sand castles is naive. 

Solution? Make dungeons impossible without having a proper tank and proper healer. Having fakes must lead to failure each time and eventually people would stop doing that. Enemies should be dangerous.

Sure, you may lock players from queuing without meeting certain criteria or by inflicting some debuffs on them, but it won't work and probably you will end with just a useless person in the team whom you have to carry through. People will find their way to cheese those systems and it will only discourage real healers and tanks to queue, i don't think people will like reducing their agency over dungeons, considering all pew-pew dovahkiin Andys in dungeons.


But I doubt that ZoS will do anything with it, because any of those will lead to some negative consequences. I'm sure that ZoS wants rewards from dungeons to be as inclusive and accessible as possible as well as difficulty of dungeons. Ramping up difficulty will lead to the inability of many people to complete said dungeons. And sure thing that ZoS don't want to split the queue because it will lead to longer waiting times. So everything probably will stay as it is now. And you shouldn't expect players to prioritise your experience about theirs.

Anyway, blame ZoS, not players. They've created this situation and they refuse to solve it.