The amount of fake tanks and fake healers is ridiculous

PrincessOfThieves

svendf wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I see fake DD way more often than fake support, in both proportion and total

Totally agree. I see less people complaining about fake DD no idea why

Because it's not a thing, just a silly red herring.

There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously just like there are real tanks and real healers who are not very good at their role.

Being a liar and cheating the system to jump the queue is a whole different issue.

It absolutely is a thing. I queued for vet Dread Cellar the other day, and had a dd just spamming bow light attacks with a skill or two every 10 or so attacks. And they weren't even low cp.

How can someone be called a dd if they're doing less damage than a healer?

The problem is no one is there to teach new players. The story don´t give you anything in that direction, same goes for the role you thoose. There are youtubers out there, but they mostly focus on gear in the upper levels.

ESO don´t have a teaching system or leveling system, which will let them learn an grow. All those important aspects is thrown into the hands of guilds (guildsmates), who have enough of their own. There is no one these players can turn to and get the attention needed.

Of cause this is just the surface, but this is where zos have to start.

That's true and I 100% agree that the game needs better tutorials.
Extremely low damage is one of the biggest reasons why there's not enough real tanks and healers in randoms. I think low-ish dps is okay when the person is at least trying to do a rotation (and the dungeon isn't very difficult), but spamming light attacks in vet dlcs is just kinda lazy.

svendf

Hasenpfote wrote: »

The bigger issue in this game are fake dps. There are way to many fake dps, so you *have* to play as fake tank/heal to deliver a tiny amount of damage. Many dps do 5k dps and less while "fake tanks" and "fake healer" do 30k+ dps and still can heal the group or keep the control of the encounter.

I dont go as full tank in a dungeon anymore, only as "fake tank" and most time i'm top 1 of dps and still can keep the boss under my control.

So the issue are not "fake tanks" and "fake healer", its clearly a fake dps issue that leads to this thread.

I don´t have enough fingers, hands, toes or feet, to count the times I had to baby sitt a fake tank on my healer and in the end getting rewarded, by getting agro.

You see it doesn´t really matter how much dps you pull, if you can´t stand up to the boss or hard hitting adds, if you don´t have the resist and healt to go, with it.


Let me tell you another thing, just for the sake getting it out there. If any out there, who is creating "fake dd´s" as you like to call it, it´s you. It will require you to move out of your bubble.

So instead of defending your, not so much liked playstyle. According to you, what would, be a good way of integrating roles more into ESO ? And now we are at it. What according to you will in some way or kind of direction, will creat good DD`s ?
xD

svendf

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I see fake DD way more often than fake support, in both proportion and total

Totally agree. I see less people complaining about fake DD no idea why

Because it's not a thing, just a silly red herring.

There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously just like there are real tanks and real healers who are not very good at their role.

Being a liar and cheating the system to jump the queue is a whole different issue.

It absolutely is a thing. I queued for vet Dread Cellar the other day, and had a dd just spamming bow light attacks with a skill or two every 10 or so attacks. And they weren't even low cp.

How can someone be called a dd if they're doing less damage than a healer?

The problem is no one is there to teach new players. The story don´t give you anything in that direction, same goes for the role you thoose. There are youtubers out there, but they mostly focus on gear in the upper levels.

ESO don´t have a teaching system or leveling system, which will let them learn an grow. All those important aspects is thrown into the hands of guilds (guildsmates), who have enough of their own. There is no one these players can turn to and get the attention needed.

Of cause this is just the surface, but this is where zos have to start.

That's true and I 100% agree that the game needs better tutorials.
Extremely low damage is one of the biggest reasons why there's not enough real tanks and healers in randoms. I think low-ish dps is okay when the person is at least trying to do a rotation (and the dungeon isn't very difficult), but spamming light attacks in vet dlcs is just kinda lazy.

Sure agreed. I have been there and observed them, doing their light attacks and at the same time getting rewarded, by getting agro from fake tanks on my healers. I full believe a legit question to zos is. Why ?

It´s no secret that I have becoming very happy playing FFXIV (it was hard for me getting into after ESO), but I managed thanks to the systems they have in place. All from job quests (learn you job). Main quest line getting into dungeons, trials and raids, which all will make you progress as a player. Tanks and healers are hitting hard in that game, but you need to find out, when to do damage and do your job. A novice network (chat), where mentors are ready to help - and they do help. A player system, where you are getting rewarded, helping low level player ( you will get leveled down, both skill vise and gear vice). Mentors, who are getting rewards and points helping players through hard content. Everything is integrated and as you play the story line you will be getting into harder content and will not fail. You will for sure in Exstream, savage and ultimate versions of those raids. You have been there before, now you have to deal with the difficulties of these.

It creates a different community. If you want to creat a player base with more knowledge. I have to say that´s maybe some of the steps zos have to take to stop fake roles, getting people into harder content and learn along the way

Elendir2am

AlterBlika wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

@kurbbie_s

I can slot Inner Fire, do basic tanking and still do my job as DD. I do it occasionally, when I get fake tank. [snip]

The fact that you can do "basic tanking" as a dd proves that you don't need a tank in this content. Why would I bother with actual tanking when there's nothing to "tank"? People are just afraid to take a hit and realize that it's not as scary as they think. [snip]

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

There are new players, who belong to normal dungeon and who need proper support to learn game properly. Fact, that some of us can do it solo don`t mean, that they don't deserve proper tank.

svendf wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

@kurbbie_s

I can slot Inner Fire, do basic tanking and still do my job as DD. I do it occasionally, when I get fake tank. [snip]

Na not correct. What makes qualifie as a tank is your resistance and health. The tank control the battlefiels and fakes aren´t able to do that in a good way. That said. I see you and your playstyle as a victim of bad role integration, and add to that a very selfish way of playing by ignoring other roles.

There are people out there only playing support roles, because they like it that way, or got tired of playing dd. To play as a tank or healer and put it very basic. You better invite your, whole family into ESO. I play another mmo, where your playstyle isn´t possible. It sort of puts a damper on things in a non toxic way, and all are happy to welcome a new player.

You see. When some people is getting too much power (dps) they use it in a very negative way. Please pay attention to, what I wrote above, about being a victim. Zos shouldn´t have gone as fare as they did, but it happened. Why ? I don´t know.

What I know is, people are excluded because of their roles in content, because some feel they are not needed. To boil it down to it´s bare minimum, tanks and healers do also need gear, crystals and skill points, plus their pledges. You get good at your role by playing in all content.

I want to remind you again. Not all people want to play dd and some are getting told to role out one if they wanna follow.

Happy hunting

[edited to remove quote]

You should read my post again.
I go in dungeon with role DD.
I see, that tank is fake and boss chase low level DD around.
I slot taunt and keep bosses on place in all AoE.
Can you tell me, why should I personally invite my family and who else?

Soarora

kurbbie_s wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

kurbbie_s wrote: »

whats funnier thank queing as a fake tank? Soloing the boss while everyone else is dead crying about you not being a tank.

It’s not funny for the other group mates who want to do a dungeon but can’t because they aren’t being ressed and died due to a heavy attack. Not everyone in normals know what they’re doing. New players need real tanks and real healers to learn how to do dungeons and become better… experiences like this make people quit. Also, even as someone who is more experienced, it’s extremely frustrating not getting use of backstabber because the tank isn’t taunting. If I wanted to tank, I would’ve queued as tank.

if youre dying to a heavy attack you arent paying attention to mechanics and would have died regardless of if there was a tank or not.. Really easy especially with addons to dodge a heavy attack. Like i was saying, the skill level is very very low here. Its truly insane.

You're just proving my point here. My bar for random normal pugs is on the floor but they won't get any better until they're subjected to a proper group setup so they can focus on their role.

In regards to "fake" damage dealers that others are talking about, again, it's normal and you're pugging. Anyone can join the normal queue with any amount of competency in their role. If you only want vet players play vet or don't pug. I've rarely run into any of the issues people complain about from normals in vets and when I do then an argument can be made that x person shouldn't be doing y content. Normals should be accessible for everybody.

Tsilara

A better tutorial would help, but they seem to rely on streamers and 3rd party websites for players who want guides.

The larger problem appears to be that the dev's and creative direction has been floundering and half baked since Covid, the staff changes, and company sale. This has caused an apparent loss of vision and direction. It shows in the new writing and content in the recent updates. Perhaps there is a lot of long covid amongst the staff, or perhaps the new people with new agenda's and background want to make the game like something else they worked on in the past.

The game used to be unique in that it broke the concept of a trinity. It still does, but less so. Play how you want to play is exactly what this thread is railing against.

Players are forcing that concept back into the game because that's what they are used to from other games that cemented that into popular gaming culture. Its really only needed, in DLC vets dungeons/trials and Hard modes..

Tanks never had, nor do they have, to hold aggro on everything but the boss and heavy hitters. Healers could do DPS (and for a good player often exceed DPS contributions from newer players. DPS more often than not gets focused on the wrong things. You see it clearly in CP, while a few break the trend, someone with CP 1900 vs someone with CP 300 had likely done the dungeon and trial content and 100 times more, and on their "main" toon with the playstyle they are most invested with, when that group comes together its fast and enjoyable. They don't stand in the bad, or the cleave, or block during the dot on them for a second or two, or immediately identify and take care of the thing they need to take care of to survive and not die.

To a large extent the answer from older players is get better and learn the game better, or in toxic language "get gud" or LTP.

At least for dungeons, some mechanics are/were explained in the process of play if you pay attention to the dungeons. Heavy hitters that are adds to a boss fight are seen before the boss fight alone. A couple of fights flip that, in that the tank does not and should not hold aggro on the boss, but the hard hitter adds.

Taunt is a weird thing, it feels broken and has felt broken for a long time, sometimes the taunt lasts 7 seconds, sometimes 15 and it doesn't "interrupt" a boss action in process every time.

Core mechanics that will happen in the boss fight, usually show up before the particular boss fight. You don't see that as much in the latest content and dungeon releases and its a clear sign that the vision and dev team has changed significantly internally.

Stories within the world don't tie into the previous chapters of the game nearly as well, nor support the main stories and side quest chains that appeared in every single previous chapter. We always got a new Rigurt or Stibbons or Keira and quest in the past when it supported that faction, and often even when it didn't. What is the point of High Isle, the Ambition subtext seems to have been put on hold.

The other big problem this game is has is not clearly separating PVP playstyles and gear from PVE playstyles.

U35 didn't just shatter the assorted experience it completely destroyed it for many people. Like coming home going to bed with your SO, and waking up in a completely new house and stranger in bed next to you. It seems vaguely the same, but its a shadow of what it was, and its not better for many player because the absolute time and gold involved to accommodate the new meta's and broken gear sets for the assorted end game power players.

There was loss across the board. Some lost more than others. Healing was gutted. DPS was gutted for most people. Damage reduction and other survivability tactics not so much affected on an individual layer. Now movement speed and reactions appears to be much more important because the healer can no long heal you through your standing in stupid. You need to block, do need to dodge, you need deal with adds that backup, or the specific ones that can create problems.

Hasenpfote

This game really needs such things that WOW has: An ingame guide for encounters.

svendf

Elendir2am wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

@kurbbie_s

I can slot Inner Fire, do basic tanking and still do my job as DD. I do it occasionally, when I get fake tank. [snip]

The fact that you can do "basic tanking" as a dd proves that you don't need a tank in this content. Why would I bother with actual tanking when there's nothing to "tank"? People are just afraid to take a hit and realize that it's not as scary as they think. [snip]

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

There are new players, who belong to normal dungeon and who need proper support to learn game properly. Fact, that some of us can do it solo don`t mean, that they don't deserve proper tank.

svendf wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

@kurbbie_s

I can slot Inner Fire, do basic tanking and still do my job as DD. I do it occasionally, when I get fake tank. [snip]

Na not correct. What makes qualifie as a tank is your resistance and health. The tank control the battlefiels and fakes aren´t able to do that in a good way. That said. I see you and your playstyle as a victim of bad role integration, and add to that a very selfish way of playing by ignoring other roles.

There are people out there only playing support roles, because they like it that way, or got tired of playing dd. To play as a tank or healer and put it very basic. You better invite your, whole family into ESO. I play another mmo, where your playstyle isn´t possible. It sort of puts a damper on things in a non toxic way, and all are happy to welcome a new player.

You see. When some people is getting too much power (dps) they use it in a very negative way. Please pay attention to, what I wrote above, about being a victim. Zos shouldn´t have gone as fare as they did, but it happened. Why ? I don´t know.

What I know is, people are excluded because of their roles in content, because some feel they are not needed. To boil it down to it´s bare minimum, tanks and healers do also need gear, crystals and skill points, plus their pledges. You get good at your role by playing in all content.

I want to remind you again. Not all people want to play dd and some are getting told to role out one if they wanna follow.

Happy hunting

[edited to remove quote]

You should read my post again.
I go in dungeon with role DD.
I see, that tank is fake and boss chase low level DD around.
I slot taunt and keep bosses on place in all AoE.
Can you tell me, why should I personally invite my family and who else?

This was actually the advice I was given by guildmates in chat, when asking about roling out a tank. My first one I may add.

Something along the lines ( I will not qoute) Hey if you are serious about tanking, (your gear is pretty fine) you need freinds or family to run with you, pug is not a good idea, which I discovered rather fast. I actually felt the advice given very true.

No reason reading it twice.

I

merpins

If you fake tank or fake healer, it is solely to skip the line. There is no excuse you can make, because if there was no line, no one would do it except guilds that are running low level dungeons with a bunch of DPS to go fast.
The other day (pre U35 so a couple weeks ago) I was running random normals on my templar. I don't fake healer or tank, and do play DPS. It took maybe 2 minutes to queue. When we got in, it was Depths of Malatar. turns out, both the Tank and the Healer were fake. They wiped against the first boss twice, then left. Had to carry the other DPS through the dungeon with a ring of the pale order. This kind of stuff is far too common. The wait time as a DPS can vary between 30 seconds and 5 minutes, either way, it's not a long wait.

Another story from a couple days ago. A low level guildie asked the guild if someone wanted to run normals with him. He's fairly new to the game, no CP yet and only level 35. I say sure, and he parties me... then says for me to queue as a healer while he queues as a tank because it's faster that way. I tell him I don't fake tank or healer, and to just queue. He's upset that it'll take forever to queue if I don't fake healer (he's fake tanking). I tell him to queue, immediately get in (since he's take tanking). It's FG1. He immediately runs ahead, skipping all the mobs and even the first boss. I'm with the rest of the group, low levels, and I'm not far behind while killing all the mobs and even the first boss. He wipes against the mobs before the second boss and leaves the group.
That is a story of we're teaching low levels the wrong things here. We should NOT be teaching them that it's ok to do this ***.

Did have a funny moment in that dungeon, though. Everyone except the guy I entered with was khajiit. He got the bug where, when you queue into a dungeon, you don't get teleported to the dungeon. So me and the other two port in and it's about a minute before the other guy got in, and we all just stood there before the first set of mobs, in a circle, jumping for a minute straight while we waited for the guy. Was kinda funny.

Arbit

merpins wrote: »

If you fake tank or fake healer, it is solely to skip the line. There is no excuse you can make, because if there was no line, no one would do it except guilds that are running low level dungeons with a bunch of DPS to go fast.
The other day (pre U35 so a couple weeks ago) I was running random normals on my templar. I don't fake healer or tank, and do play DPS. It took maybe 2 minutes to queue. When we got in, it was Depths of Malatar. turns out, both the Tank and the Healer were fake. They wiped against the first boss twice, then left. Had to carry the other DPS through the dungeon with a ring of the pale order. This kind of stuff is far too common. The wait time as a DPS can vary between 30 seconds and 5 minutes, either way, it's not a long wait.

Another story from a couple days ago. A low level guildie asked the guild if someone wanted to run normals with him. He's fairly new to the game, no CP yet and only level 35. I say sure, and he parties me... then says for me to queue as a healer while he queues as a tank because it's faster that way. I tell him I don't fake tank or healer, and to just queue. He's upset that it'll take forever to queue if I don't fake healer (he's fake tanking). I tell him to queue, immediately get in (since he's take tanking). It's FG1. He immediately runs ahead, skipping all the mobs and even the first boss. I'm with the rest of the group, low levels, and I'm not far behind while killing all the mobs and even the first boss. He wipes against the mobs before the second boss and leaves the group.
That is a story of we're teaching low levels the wrong things here. We should NOT be teaching them that it's ok to do this ***.

Did have a funny moment in that dungeon, though. Everyone except the guy I entered with was khajiit. He got the bug where, when you queue into a dungeon, you don't get teleported to the dungeon. So me and the other two port in and it's about a minute before the other guy got in, and we all just stood there before the first set of mobs, in a circle, jumping for a minute straight while we waited for the guy. Was kinda funny.

I find that the pvpers tend to be the worst for this. They don’t care about the pve aspect and want to get the levels. So they’ll run in their pvp setup and expect to be carried. Just saw that today in a normal where I was doing 85% of the total damage.

Worst dungeon I ever experienced was probably where 3 pvp buddies qued up for vet bloodroot forge. They didn’t hold aggro, and I was doing a very large portion more damage than them. The “tank” thought he was a god or something doing 2% damage a minute while not doing mechs or real damage. So most of the time me and his buddies were dead. Despite my constant attempts to kick him, I instead got berated and made fun of. I left. There’s definitely an elitist bunch who will rush through normals at the expense of other players enjoyment , but there’s also the pvp bunch who expect to be carried at the rest of the parties expense efforts. If you’re queuing roles, I think there should be a requirement of some kind. If you’re not a pre made party. Just so people can’t pull this stuff.

Amottica

Cast_El wrote: »

I am endgame trial Tank and I am doing dongeon with my pvp character with a tunt only for bosses. Why ? Because too many times dps group was around 20k...

If you have a taunt and are using it on bosses then you are not a fake tank by definition in the game's design.

Jarl_Ironheart

Amottica wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

I am endgame trial Tank and I am doing dongeon with my pvp character with a tunt only for bosses. Why ? Because too many times dps group was around 20k...

If you have a taunt and are using it on bosses then you are not a fake tank by definition in the game's design.

Yep. I can stand the fake tanks in normal dungeons that at least have a CC and Taunt, also if they hold thr boss in one spot. That's kinda a pseudo DPS/Tank. But in Vet I want a real tank.

Iselin

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I see fake DD way more often than fake support, in both proportion and total

Totally agree. I see less people complaining about fake DD no idea why

Because it's not a thing, just a silly red herring.

There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously just like there are real tanks and real healers who are not very good at their role.

Being a liar and cheating the system to jump the queue is a whole different issue.

It absolutely is a thing. I queued for vet Dread Cellar the other day, and had a dd just spamming bow light attacks with a skill or two every 10 or so attacks. And they weren't even low cp.

How can someone be called a dd if they're doing less damage than a healer?

See above "There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously." There ARE terrible players in this game.

A fake role in this game is done to gain an advantage in the PUG queue. Fake healers and tanks are a thing because you get a group faster - instantly usually in fact. Queuing as DPS means you have a 10 minute wait on average. Faking DPS to get in a group slower would be brain-dead level stupid.

Faking roles is all about jumping to the front of the queue. This is why I don't buy the pathetic "fake DPS" red herrings many of you think is a good counter argument to rationalize being a lying queue jumper.

PrincessOfThieves

Iselin wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I see fake DD way more often than fake support, in both proportion and total

Totally agree. I see less people complaining about fake DD no idea why

Because it's not a thing, just a silly red herring.

There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously just like there are real tanks and real healers who are not very good at their role.

Being a liar and cheating the system to jump the queue is a whole different issue.

It absolutely is a thing. I queued for vet Dread Cellar the other day, and had a dd just spamming bow light attacks with a skill or two every 10 or so attacks. And they weren't even low cp.

How can someone be called a dd if they're doing less damage than a healer?

See above "There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously." There ARE terrible players in this game.

A fake role in this game is done to gain an advantage in the PUG queue. Fake healers and tanks are a thing because you get a group faster - instantly usually in fact. Queuing as DPS means you have a 10 minute wait on average. Faking DPS to get in a group slower would be brain-dead level stupid.

Faking roles is all about jumping to the front of the queue. This is why I don't buy the pathetic "fake DPS" red herrings many of you think is a good counter argument to rationalize being a lying queue jumper.

I'm not "queue jumping". I'm just saying that people who queue as dds and don't even try to do meaningful dps (at least more than an average healer) aren't really dds, they're just people who are either clueless or looking for a free carry. Dd means damage dealer, not just someone who's not a healer nor a tank.
These people are the reason why healers and tanks try to avoid solo queues. It is just not fun to play when you get 2 of those.
And I find it really weird that dds are almost never judged the way support players are.

AvalonRanger

svendf wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I see fake DD way more often than fake support, in both proportion and total

Totally agree. I see less people complaining about fake DD no idea why

Because it's not a thing, just a silly red herring.

There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously just like there are real tanks and real healers who are not very good at their role.

Being a liar and cheating the system to jump the queue is a whole different issue.

It absolutely is a thing. I queued for vet Dread Cellar the other day, and had a dd just spamming bow light attacks with a skill or two every 10 or so attacks. And they weren't even low cp.

How can someone be called a dd if they're doing less damage than a healer?

The problem is no one is there to teach new players. The story don´t give you anything in that direction, same goes for the role you thoose. There are youtubers out there, but they mostly focus on gear in the upper levels.

ESO don´t have a teaching system or leveling system, which will let them learn an grow. All those important aspects is thrown into the hands of guilds (guildsmates), who have enough of their own. There is no one these players can turn to and get the attention needed.

Of cause this is just the surface, but this is where zos have to start.

ESO needs improvement of beginner tutorial.

AvalonRanger

Hasenpfote wrote: »

The bigger issue in this game are fake dps. There are way to many fake dps, so you *have* to play as fake tank/heal to deliver a tiny amount of damage. Many dps do 5k dps and less while "fake tanks" and "fake healer" do 30k+ dps and still can heal the group or keep the control of the encounter.

I dont go as full tank in a dungeon anymore, only as "fake tank" and most time i'm top 1 of dps and still can keep the boss under my control.

So the issue are not "fake tanks" and "fake healer", its clearly a fake dps issue that leads to this thread.

Little bit wrong opinion. Current random grouping tools allow fake tank and healer role.
So, DPS people start to think self defense solo build rather than pure dps for avoiding
"wipe" in just normal running.

self defense, self healing, little bit better damage than pure tank build.
People have knowledge how to make pure dps, but just they can't.

Recently glass canon getting rare case in random group. Most of 1K CP
player do more "tanky DPS". Because, they can't believe random grouping tools.
But, they don't want to spend time for "emergency queue" to get genuine tank also.

And more, Elder Scrolls fan people dislike to bind themselves by the role.
They want to play ESO same like "Skyrim", not like MMO.

Those are major reason, why pure dps is not popular anymore.

StarOfElyon

kurbbie_s wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Jaustink wrote: »

All the more reason to get into veteran content where this behavior, unless coordinated, is very unwelcome. Most people just want to run the normal dungeons (often random for these people) as fast as humanly possible because they’re farming transmutes. I honestly welcome it in normals because more dps means faster completion of the random normal 🤷🏻‍♂️

BUT it is very irritating for new players who don’t understand this, understand mechanics and who want to quest. 100%

It is a serious problem. Some can't take a hit and are dying in trash pulls, leading to them quiting before they reach the boss. It's also a problem caused by the difficulty gap in content. Normal dungeons are so easy that tanking is optional and so players don't learn how to properly tank. And then the vet content is so much harder for tanks that it is like running straight into a brick wall for some of them, and so they either don't bother trying or they try and fail. Which is the reason why tanks for vet dungeons are so hard to find. I've had to switch from DD to tank sometimes just to get through a dungeon.

This situation can be improved if normal content made tanking harder. Maybe that will also discourage fake tanking.

the people dying arent the ones who que as fake tank. The ones dying are the people who need a tank.

No, tanks die when they aren't ready for vet content. You're literally arguing with my experience.

StarOfElyon

kurbbie_s wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Jaustink wrote: »

All the more reason to get into veteran content where this behavior, unless coordinated, is very unwelcome. Most people just want to run the normal dungeons (often random for these people) as fast as humanly possible because they’re farming transmutes. I honestly welcome it in normals because more dps means faster completion of the random normal 🤷🏻‍♂️

BUT it is very irritating for new players who don’t understand this, understand mechanics and who want to quest. 100%

It is a serious problem. Some can't take a hit and are dying in trash pulls, leading to them quiting before they reach the boss. It's also a problem caused by the difficulty gap in content. Normal dungeons are so easy that tanking is optional and so players don't learn how to properly tank. And then the vet content is so much harder for tanks that it is like running straight into a brick wall for some of them, and so they either don't bother trying or they try and fail. Which is the reason why tanks for vet dungeons are so hard to find. I've had to switch from DD to tank sometimes just to get through a dungeon.

This situation can be improved if normal content made tanking harder. Maybe that will also discourage fake tanking.

you dont even need a tank in normal. You can literally just stand in the red and never die.

So you agree with me.

StarOfElyon

merpins wrote: »

If you fake tank or fake healer, it is solely to skip the line. There is no excuse you can make, because if there was no line, no one would do it except guilds that are running low level dungeons with a bunch of DPS to go fast.
The other day (pre U35 so a couple weeks ago) I was running random normals on my templar. I don't fake healer or tank, and do play DPS. It took maybe 2 minutes to queue. When we got in, it was Depths of Malatar. turns out, both the Tank and the Healer were fake. They wiped against the first boss twice, then left. Had to carry the other DPS through the dungeon with a ring of the pale order. This kind of stuff is far too common. The wait time as a DPS can vary between 30 seconds and 5 minutes, either way, it's not a long wait.

Another story from a couple days ago. A low level guildie asked the guild if someone wanted to run normals with him. He's fairly new to the game, no CP yet and only level 35. I say sure, and he parties me... then says for me to queue as a healer while he queues as a tank because it's faster that way. I tell him I don't fake tank or healer, and to just queue. He's upset that it'll take forever to queue if I don't fake healer (he's fake tanking). I tell him to queue, immediately get in (since he's take tanking). It's FG1. He immediately runs ahead, skipping all the mobs and even the first boss. I'm with the rest of the group, low levels, and I'm not far behind while killing all the mobs and even the first boss. He wipes against the mobs before the second boss and leaves the group.
That is a story of we're teaching low levels the wrong things here. We should NOT be teaching them that it's ok to do this ***.

Did have a funny moment in that dungeon, though. Everyone except the guy I entered with was khajiit. He got the bug where, when you queue into a dungeon, you don't get teleported to the dungeon. So me and the other two port in and it's about a minute before the other guy got in, and we all just stood there before the first set of mobs, in a circle, jumping for a minute straight while we waited for the guy. Was kinda funny.

This is exactly why I don't fake any role. People need to learn how to play the game, not take short cuts.

StarOfElyon

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I see fake DD way more often than fake support, in both proportion and total

Totally agree. I see less people complaining about fake DD no idea why

Because it's not a thing, just a silly red herring.

There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously just like there are real tanks and real healers who are not very good at their role.

Being a liar and cheating the system to jump the queue is a whole different issue.

It absolutely is a thing. I queued for vet Dread Cellar the other day, and had a dd just spamming bow light attacks with a skill or two every 10 or so attacks. And they weren't even low cp.

How can someone be called a dd if they're doing less damage than a healer?

See above "There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously." There ARE terrible players in this game.

A fake role in this game is done to gain an advantage in the PUG queue. Fake healers and tanks are a thing because you get a group faster - instantly usually in fact. Queuing as DPS means you have a 10 minute wait on average. Faking DPS to get in a group slower would be brain-dead level stupid.

Faking roles is all about jumping to the front of the queue. This is why I don't buy the pathetic "fake DPS" red herrings many of you think is a good counter argument to rationalize being a lying queue jumper.

I'm not "queue jumping". I'm just saying that people who queue as dds and don't even try to do meaningful dps (at least more than an average healer) aren't really dds, they're just people who are either clueless or looking for a free carry. Dd means damage dealer, not just someone who's not a healer nor a tank.
These people are the reason why healers and tanks try to avoid solo queues. It is just not fun to play when you get 2 of those.
And I find it really weird that dds are almost never judged the way support players are.

I've tanked for groups where literally everyone was dying repeatedly and doing dookie damage. When we got on party, I actually learned that one of the DDs was an older woman (sounded old enough to be my mom). I'm patient as hell so I stuck with them and we eventually cleared that vet dungeon. It's not fun sometimes but in order for people to advance in this game, the more experienced players must be willing to carry groups and teach others. If people want to be selfish, they shouldn't play an MMORPG.

Galiferno

OnnuK wrote: »

Ok here is a permanent solution to this:
(PS: Numbers are assumption but to give the idea...)

If you select Tank Role: your Weapon and Spell Damage set to 100 (no matter the set/cp/skills you got, flat line 100)
If you select Healer Role: your Weapon and Spell Damage set to 400, Cannot taunt
If you select DD: Cannot Taunt

Now it will be a mess for the first times, people will eventually give up fake roles and try to learn and improve...
my2¹⁄₁₀₀

Since healing output is dependent on spell damage, you just artificially limited the healing a real healer can do and made them close to useless. So congrats on screwing over real healers and also the self-healing potential of real tanks.

MidniteOwl1913

Iselin wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I see fake DD way more often than fake support, in both proportion and total

Totally agree. I see less people complaining about fake DD no idea why

Because it's not a thing, just a silly red herring.

There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously just like there are real tanks and real healers who are not very good at their role.

Being a liar and cheating the system to jump the queue is a whole different issue.

It absolutely is a thing. I queued for vet Dread Cellar the other day, and had a dd just spamming bow light attacks with a skill or two every 10 or so attacks. And they weren't even low cp.

How can someone be called a dd if they're doing less damage than a healer?

See above "There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously." There ARE terrible players in this game.

A fake role in this game is done to gain an advantage in the PUG queue. Fake healers and tanks are a thing because you get a group faster - instantly usually in fact. Queuing as DPS means you have a 10 minute wait on average. Faking DPS to get in a group slower would be brain-dead level stupid.

Faking roles is all about jumping to the front of the queue. This is why I don't buy the pathetic "fake DPS" red herrings many of you think is a good counter argument to rationalize being a lying queue jumper.

Exactly!!! There is no such thing as a fake DPS. Bad DPS, sure, but not fake. And sometimes the "bad" just need some help learning. It's what normal dungeons are for.

MidniteOwl1913

StarOfElyon wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I see fake DD way more often than fake support, in both proportion and total

Totally agree. I see less people complaining about fake DD no idea why

Because it's not a thing, just a silly red herring.

There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously just like there are real tanks and real healers who are not very good at their role.

Being a liar and cheating the system to jump the queue is a whole different issue.

It absolutely is a thing. I queued for vet Dread Cellar the other day, and had a dd just spamming bow light attacks with a skill or two every 10 or so attacks. And they weren't even low cp.

How can someone be called a dd if they're doing less damage than a healer?

See above "There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously." There ARE terrible players in this game.

A fake role in this game is done to gain an advantage in the PUG queue. Fake healers and tanks are a thing because you get a group faster - instantly usually in fact. Queuing as DPS means you have a 10 minute wait on average. Faking DPS to get in a group slower would be brain-dead level stupid.

Faking roles is all about jumping to the front of the queue. This is why I don't buy the pathetic "fake DPS" red herrings many of you think is a good counter argument to rationalize being a lying queue jumper.

I'm not "queue jumping". I'm just saying that people who queue as dds and don't even try to do meaningful dps (at least more than an average healer) aren't really dds, they're just people who are either clueless or looking for a free carry. Dd means damage dealer, not just someone who's not a healer nor a tank.
These people are the reason why healers and tanks try to avoid solo queues. It is just not fun to play when you get 2 of those.
And I find it really weird that dds are almost never judged the way support players are.

I've tanked for groups where literally everyone was dying repeatedly and doing dookie damage. When we got on party, I actually learned that one of the DDs was an older woman (sounded old enough to be my mom). I'm patient as hell so I stuck with them and we eventually cleared that vet dungeon. It's not fun sometimes but in order for people to advance in this game, the more experienced players must be willing to carry groups and teach others. If people want to be selfish, they shouldn't play an MMORPG.

I look at it as paying it forward. People helped me, boy did I need help at first. ESO is my first ever video game (it's my retirement hobby) and I had a lot to learn. But more experienced players took time and helped me. I appreciated it then and now I try to do the same for others.

hrothbern

Considering that the intention of the Group Finder is to create balanced groups (ZOS in the Group Finder comment)
Assuming that ZOS also has the objective that normal dungeons should be the learning grounds for all three roles you can choose from now.

Not as bad as the proverb that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but what we have now is asking for improvement.
Over time many players have build more "wholesome" characters balancing in that character damage, mitigation , heal and buffs and like to play with them "just as they are" with minor tweaking with an ability or star here and there.


My two cents to nudge the learning grounds for new players back to original intention and cater the development for more solo-ish characters.

Basically:
* Give "tanks" a big Oblivion damage debuff when not (succesfully) taunting the boss (with a grace period)
* Give "healers" a big Oblivion damage debuff when not supporting/healing other players "enough"
* No changes for players choosing the DPS role.
* Give players who do not want to play with such conditions a new "Free Category" choice in their role.

This means that you have now four roles you can choose from in the Group & Activity Finder.
Hereby players choosing the "Free Category" will only be grouped with other players having chosen that role.

That's it.
The basic idea.
And ofc there are details

Ad the big Oblivion damage debuff:
It has to be big enough to really encourage the "tank" to play the tank role & the "healer" to play the healer role.

Ad the tank role:
That grace period must cover gaps between intended 100% taunting from human skill, the boss disappearing shortly etc, and that the tank is disabled in the dungeon mechanics like being spun in spidersilk etc.

Ad the healer role:
Support from only keeping for example Resto Regeneration up should not be enough. buffs and damage shields etc should count as well.

OBJnoob

The honest truth is that the game just isn't that hard for most of us where we see the need to put restrictions on what would otherwise just be a care free gaming experience.

Others that struggle or just have a very inflexible way to do things may want to bring things like "etiquette" into the discussion. But as they are complaining that others are ruining their gaming experience they are actively seeking to destroy what these so called fake tanks and healers obviously find fun.

I don't really think either side is obligated to accommodate the other. What makes the most sense is for the people that care less and play the way they want to keep pugging normals as they are... And the people that have a problem with it, whether their adherence to the traditional mmo group is more idyllic or not, should group up into pve guilds and form their own groups.

It never ceases to amaze me how people will cry beg and steal to force others to please them but they won't take the steps to be in charge of their own happiness.

svendf

OBJnoob wrote: »

The honest truth is that the game just isn't that hard for most of us where we see the need to put restrictions on what would otherwise just be a care free gaming experience.

Others that struggle or just have a very inflexible way to do things may want to bring things like "etiquette" into the discussion. But as they are complaining that others are ruining their gaming experience they are actively seeking to destroy what these so called fake tanks and healers obviously find fun.

I don't really think either side is obligated to accommodate the other. What makes the most sense is for the people that care less and play the way they want to keep pugging normals as they are... And the people that have a problem with it, whether their adherence to the traditional mmo group is more idyllic or not, should group up into pve guilds and form their own groups.

It never ceases to amaze me how people will cry beg and steal to force others to please them but they won't take the steps to be in charge of their own happiness.

[snip] For me alot ingame are easy. It doesn´t make me fake role.

[snip]

Have fun

[Edited for Baiting]

AvalonRanger

I've already mention this idea at the other thread. But, once again try to write here.

Make some small testing mission(simulation real combat)at the undaunted quest giver place.

(Tank)>Defense ability test. How much damage can you take from enemy, and
how much longer let the NPC character survive by taunting skill. It has both mobs
and boss class dummy enemy test.
(boss attacking rate and damage amount is much higher than other role test.)

(DPS)>Damage dealer skill test. How first can you take down boss character?
But, your combat target is not just standing doll like combat dummy.
The testing dummy deploy dangerous AoE and launch non lethal damage also.
If you don't have any of skill to avoid lethal damage, then you're useless DPS.
(boss attacking rate and damage amount is not higher than tank test. non
lethal damage means same as 2 or 3 mob level)

(healer)>Healing skill test. How long time can you save your NPC from dangerous attack from
enemy. But same like DPS test, you also must have average self protection skill.
If you can't avoid lethal damage skill, then you're useless healer.
(boss attacking rate and damage amount is not higher than tank test. non
lethal damage means same as 2 or 3 mob level)

After finish test, give the ranking degree to the player's character.
((example)main character "A" rank tank, second character have "B" rank DPS)

And, display role ranking above the character's head, and also make the flag switch at the grouping tools.
((example) Need "A" class tank or not)

If your high CP veteran partner player have "A" rank tank grade, but don't work like fundamental tank role.
Then, those player are doing something troll.

thorwyn

So let's assume those testing missons exist. Why would anyone play them? What is the benefit of having a "grade" over your head that does not represent experience, nor knowledge of mechanics, nor situational awareness but is based on pure numeric statisctics?
Let's assume you join a group with a grade A tank. Who is going to judge whether or not their performance during live content is acceptable? What do you think is going to happen if you decide it is not acceptable? Do you expect to be able to report them and do you expect ZOS to punish them based on your report? How do you prevent abusing the report system in those cases where someone just happens to dislike someone else because they want to keep that dagger drop at the end? Why would anyone allow the game to put them into some artificial category that only make you prone to potential punishment if you fail to please the other players?

Einar_Hrafnarsson

The REAL sad thing is when you have more DPS players in a group but the Boss still takes ages to die.

Ragnarok0130

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I see fake DD way more often than fake support, in both proportion and total

Totally agree. I see less people complaining about fake DD no idea why

Because it's not a thing, just a silly red herring.

There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously just like there are real tanks and real healers who are not very good at their role.

Being a liar and cheating the system to jump the queue is a whole different issue.

It absolutely is a thing. I queued for vet Dread Cellar the other day, and had a dd just spamming bow light attacks with a skill or two every 10 or so attacks. And they weren't even low cp.

How can someone be called a dd if they're doing less damage than a healer?

They way I see it is that I would call the person you described a "bad DD" not a "fake DD" because they are attempting to do the DD role and just failing miserably either due to ignorance or malice (he may be a bot/secondary account from another team member double boxing for gear farming or progression especially if he consistently lags behind and if your vote kick constantly fails). A fake tank has no intention of actually tanking as he has no taunt slotted and a fake healer has no group heals slotted so the fake tank and the fake healer can't even do the role they queued for badly, they just can't or won't do the role period unlike the bad DD.