Corrosive Armor needs a nerf.

Urzigurumash

huskandhunger wrote: »

I think the idea of Corrosive Armor being defensive, and then a separate version being Corrosive Weapons with the unlimited armor piercing could be really effective.

Let me try to be objective and talk about why this is bad for Class Identity, in the long haul, with consideration for the preservation of Class Identity through the fluctuations of the meta which are sure to come in the future:

I understand the simplicity of this idea is attractive, but in my opinion it's too binary. Part of the DK identity in PvP was always to be more tankish than the other classes but still able to deal damage - with its own limitations compared to other classes in terms of mobility, sustain out of combat, evasiveness, range, etc - things not associated with a "Knight" class. An Ult which let one be extremely tanky and deal extreme damage at once was the "Ultimate" experience for this Identity.

If Corrosive were changed to simply be a damage augmentation Ult without any defensive component, then it would no longer have any particular strength when used by a Knight that it didn't have when used by a mobile, evasive, and possibly ranged Rogue. Its power budget would have to be adjusted to account for the increased damage done by a Rogue while having no consideration for the Knight's necessity of mitigation to achieve "Ultimate" power.

That's not to say that Corrosive in its present state isn't obviously quite strong and outperforming similar Ults.

So many things have changed over the years, but not Corrosive, not by much.

Here are two big things which have changed besides Hybridization which have effected the power of this old, sub-class-defining, generally constant Ult:

- Increased access to Ult Gain. To name a few - Nord never had an innate Ult gain, there were no Ult pots, Major Heroism only existed in the Last Stand passive - which, it so happens, combined well with DK's Battle Roar and the general class theme of not retreating but fighting until the end - again like a Knight, not at all like a Rogue.

The way to balance Corrosive in light of this is to increase its cost.

- The continual increase of new integer sources of HP Regen (Sugar Skulls - compare this to the only prior Max Resource + HP Regen foods, Bergama Warning Fire and Frosted Sugar Skulls, buffed HP Regen sets, HP Regen Champion passives) led to a generally accepted indication that HP Regen should be subject to Battlespirit like Healing (fairly sound logic if HP Regen were ever going to be balanced against Healing in both PvE and PvP so long as Healing were subject to Battlespirit). Meanwhile, Vampire had been revised. Undeath now scaled to 100% health, rather than just under 50% (I think). One of the old trade-offs for the defensive advantage of Undeath was that you gave up quite a bit of HP Regen. But with the nerf to HP Regen, the change to Undeath, and most of all - the general increase in damage - as we know by some point last year I think pretty much every single spec began to run Vampire Stage 3 exclusively for the Undeath passive.

But, Vampire has a Flame Damage Taken Penalty.

Then, Corrosive got Spell Pen, and then DK's World in Ruin passive was revised to provide a Damage Done Bonus to all Flame Damage whatsoever. So everybody's a Vampire, because they take less damage than Mortals, even Flame, but point for point, anything which is Flame will do more damage to a Vampire - and DK has a Flame Damage Done passive, and of course a bunch of Flame Damage Skills.

All of the sudden, this old, unchanged, classic Ult, which for years provided unique power and identity to one of the generally regarded as least powerful sub-classes, is the single most effective non-burst Ult in the game - completely eclipsing Sleet Storm on Warden, Vamp Ult on MagPlar as was powerful there for a minute, Atro on Sorc, even Goliath on Necro.

The way to balance Corrosive in light of this while preserving the Spell Pen Hybridization on Corrosive is to remove or alter the Flame Damage Taken Penalty on Vampirism.

It's not just about Corrosive, but about balancing MagDK and Vampire in PvP in general. The same way those old racial passives - while thematic and in line with TES standards - simply had to be adjusted to allow any race to be as flexible in content as an MMO requires - so too does this thematic Vampire passive, in my opinion.

xDeusEJRx

If I'm truthful. I think corrosive armor only feels bad to play against because of
1. Oakensoul
2. Molten whip

Before molten whip got buffed to ridiculous numbers DK barely had damage that made corrosive armor too much of a problem ult to begin with. But the moment they buffed the ability corrosive finally had something to pair with to make corrosive problematic to fight.

I think molten whip is what requires attention, revert changes back to pre-buff whip (the ability just didn't need to get a buff to begin with) and make the ability consume all seething fury stacks on activation not when it makes contact with an enemy.

Part of the reason corrosive DK's are oppressive is because seething fury stacks doesn't consume on activation so they can keep spamming it in corrosive until it melts you. Like imagine if nightblades could spam their assassins will bow at you until you get hit for 18k by it.

Molten whip synergizes far too well with corrosive armor to the point it's blatantly overperforming.

Urzigurumash

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Before molten whip got buffed to ridiculous numbers

Not to be too excruciatingly pedantic, but the big buff to its damage happened in 2019 at Elsweyr - MagDK remained unpopular in PvP for 2 years after that - but not all players were Vampires during those years, rather investing heavily into HP Regen was the meta for much of 2020. The Seething Fury stack duration changes came at the Deadlands patch, but players still could've been doing the pre-buff with Cauterize/FoO thing prior to that - nobody was. So it isn't simply the tooltip of the Seething Fury stacked Molten Whip by itself which overpowers it.

As I implied, if and when the meta shifts so that not all players in PvP are Vampires, Whip would begin to underperform. I think it is simply impossible to properly balance Flame Damage abilities while Vampire has the Flame Damage Taken Penalty.

We could say the same thing about WW's Poison Damage Taken Penalty + World in Ruin's Poison Damage Done, except hardly anybody plays WW and everybody that does builds them to be very tanky.

About the losing stacks thing, it's not a bad point, but Merciless and C Frags can be cast at range, Whip cannot. That's a big difference in terms of what the NB/Sorc can do when their stacked skill misses versus what the DK can do - i.e. they can evade and try again.

I agree adjustments are needed, DK is simply much too easy to play on live compared to how it used to be, but some adjustments have now been made and we will see what their impact is over the next few months. Obviously my concern is for the long term and making sure the design of DK punishes a player for disengaging or evading, and of course does not encourage it, despite the Ultra Burst AoE meta of Cyrodiil right now.

Facetank until the end, that's how DK should be played, that's what the kit should require to operate at maximum efficiency.

Urzigurumash

But yes, when you say Molten Whip synergizes far too well with Corrosive, probably I already made this point in the thread but let me reiterate:

Before Hybridization, there was only 1 high damage, single target, direct damage spammable which could be combined with Corrosive, and it has a Cast Time: Dizzy Swing.

You will recall the old dueling style of StamDK turtled up on the SnB bar weaving Heroic Slash, then popped Corrosive and switched bars to Dizzy Swing. Switching to the 2h bar and exposing ourselves with Dizzy Swing's Cast Time without the mitigation of Corrosive often meant getting bursted down.

huskandhunger

Corrosive = 100,000 armor penetration + dmg reduced to .03% maximum health, it's drastically overpowered

Hotdog_23

Hybridization really helped the DK a lot vs. some classes. Which is the real issue I believe. Corrosive Armor has basically been the same for years with only minor adjustments. See the patch notes for its history here https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Magma_Armor

Personally, I don’t see the problem with it. Yes, I play all classes and specs and not just DKs, but DK was my first character and I guess if being honest I am a little bias to it.

Stay safe

GetAgrippa

I'm just pretty tired of dks building super tanky and basically turtling up until they have corrosive. It's even worse now with the serpents coil. I main a dk but I don't run corrosive because it's boring and cheesy. I see a lot of mediocre players that get carried by dk and mythics with corrosive these days.

huskandhunger

GetAgrippa wrote: »

I'm just pretty tired of dks building super tanky and basically turtling up until they have corrosive. It's even worse now with the serpents coil. I main a dk but I don't run corrosive because it's boring and cheesy. I see a lot of mediocre players that get carried by dk and mythics with corrosive these days.

Oh yes Corrosive Armor has long been busted and a crutch that needs to be reexamined in terms of power level and what it brings to the table when compared to other ultimates like the Nightblades Veil of Blades and Templar Solar Prison.

axi

huskandhunger wrote: »

GetAgrippa wrote: »

I'm just pretty tired of dks building super tanky and basically turtling up until they have corrosive. It's even worse now with the serpents coil. I main a dk but I don't run corrosive because it's boring and cheesy. I see a lot of mediocre players that get carried by dk and mythics with corrosive these days.

Oh yes Corrosive Armor has long been busted and a crutch that needs to be reexamined in terms of power level and what it brings to the table when compared to other ultimates like the Nightblades Veil of Blades and Templar Solar Prison.

Comparing one class ultimate to other class ultimates in a vacuum is a pointless thing to do. You can find lots of things that Dk is lacking or have weak version of them being strong on nb or templar so does that mean nb and templar should have these things removed/nerfed?

Destyran

Dk is a carry tank a carry dps and a carry in pvp. Corrosive deffs needs nerfed.

Tommy_The_Gun

I always try to be objective and I can totally understand why some players can "defend" their main class. I am sometimes guilty of that too when things I use in my builds are considered OP. Not so many patches ago WW used to have 10K unique armour instead 5K from major buff. Back then I thought that nerf was not justified, but from today's perspective - it was kinda busted.

So, Corrosive is kinda strong. It has a lot of very powerful things packed in one ulti. And while it is an ulti (and ultis should be strong) - when combined with ulti gen / ulti cost reduction build it gets busted af.

It is same reason why WW armour buff was busted. 10K alone was ok-ish, considering other WW's drawbacks. But, if combined with other things - such as Major Resolve buff and sets that scale off your max armour - then it is obvious it was busted.

Things can not be balanced out in the vacuum and some "what if" questions should be asked. Like remember how Argonians used to have 4K resources restored from potion passive ? No one said it is OP, until we could make infused potion cooldown jewelry. All of the sudden one thing augments the other and we endup with something that is OP. It is always about the build & possibilities.

Right now, if you pair Corrosive with a proper ulti gen & ulti cost reduction build - you can significantly increase the uptime. This means that you can have "a button" that you can press quite often and when pressed - it gives you max penetration (so you don't even need to invest in it), but also it makes you extremely tanky.

Just go to some place where players are dueling (like Alik'r) and observe for a bit who is winning most often. It is DK with Corrosive. The only duels that last longer is DK vs DK as they can mitigated dmg with... Corrosive...

Idk about you but if one thing gives very strong offensive & defensive possibilities - it is obvious that players will kinda abuse it. Imho it should be one or the other. DKs are pretty much using it in almost every build. I think that zos should make it either defensive or offensive morph and move some of the "power" to other DK abilities. The way it is now it is just dumb lol.

AdamLAD

Let me tell you what it gives. It gives stamina, magicka and health back. Whilst giving close to invulnerability for 12 seconds and giving 100,000 penetration for said duration. Can anyone name another ultimate which does all this. I'd love for my meteor just give me 100,000 penetration for 12 seconds for my sorc combo

axi

AdamLAD wrote: »

Let me tell you what it gives. It gives stamina, magicka and health back. Whilst giving close to invulnerability for 12 seconds and giving 100,000 penetration for said duration. Can anyone name another ultimate which does all this. I'd love for my meteor just give me 100,000 penetration for 12 seconds for my sorc combo

And the end result is still class being mediocre. One ability combined with decent passive will not make the class strong if other parts of class kit are weak.

TechMaybeHic

axi wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Let me tell you what it gives. It gives stamina, magicka and health back. Whilst giving close to invulnerability for 12 seconds and giving 100,000 penetration for said duration. Can anyone name another ultimate which does all this. I'd love for my meteor just give me 100,000 penetration for 12 seconds for my sorc combo

And the end result is still class being mediocre. One ability combined with decent passive will not make the class strong if other parts of class kit are weak.

Are we talking about DK?! Mediocre does not fit here

AdamLAD

axi wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Let me tell you what it gives. It gives stamina, magicka and health back. Whilst giving close to invulnerability for 12 seconds and giving 100,000 penetration for said duration. Can anyone name another ultimate which does all this. I'd love for my meteor just give me 100,000 penetration for 12 seconds for my sorc combo

And the end result is still class being mediocre. One ability combined with decent passive will not make the class strong if other parts of class kit are weak.

Hold up, you think DK is weak ? For 6 long years I have been a mag sorc main. And people on my server wanted to see me on a different class. Plus mag sorc was declining each update in comparison to other classes. So I Tested the waters on stamina nightblade, obviously at 1st I was bad. After one week, I was decimating players who have mained It for years, destroying players I couldn't physically 1vX or destroy on a mag sorc as its kit doesn't allow it. The raw power difference that stamina nightblade has in comparison to a mag sorc is magnificent. You can run full damage and still survive. Now let's move on to a DK. Recently I have tested the waters on DK, let me tell you now, its RAW power it holds is staggering, I'm terrible, utterly terrible on it and I was getting 1v5s on it in less that 24 hours play time. The DAMAGE and Healing it has is unparalleled. My Freind who is the best mag DK I've seen, you will see him on my YouTube can run FULL DAMAGE and survive against about 20 people battering him. Now I know that's down to individual performance but if the class had such weakness it wouldn't be possible. To even come close to be able to survive anything like that on my mag sorc I have to run tank sets and extra resistance. DK is top of the food chain in all aspects in eso now. No one under any circumstances should say its weak. I cannot fathom as to why you say that

TechMaybeHic

The only way I could see thinking of DK as mediocre is if you also see other classes as mediocre at best and at least half of them worse than that. I could see it because of what DOTs look like. And even DKs that don't use corrosive and still leap, are top end

TheHeroCat

wat if corrosive armor increased your poison damage done by "x" Percent and the other one gave fire damage done by "x" percent. :O then make it 300 ult.


or we can just sit down and eat cake off cd

cuddles_with_wroble

why not have it give you 30 - 40% flat pen when you activiate it and nerf the damage reduction down to 30 -40% as well, down from 75 - 80% or w/e it is rn.

as it stands it is the single strongest offensive and defensive ultimate in the game.

you can pop it and almost never die unless your being hit by 100 dots or 6 - 8 people while consistantly doing 12 - 15k whips.

its a dumb ultimate and it needs to be changed. as it is now the only counter play to corrosive is to just run away for 20 seconds, and if that isnt a problem then i dont know what game your playing.

TechMaybeHic

I want the damage to be more often, but the defense removed. Still like the idea of splitting the morphs to one damage, one resist, and then cut cost in half.

FWI; I've played DK but not a main and not recently. I just want more class based damage over nerfing wide shared heals and defense and inadvertently shifting more power to proc sets

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Are we talking about DK?! Mediocre does not fit here

What does dk do these days, other than pop corrosive, spam whip, and hope their target isn't paying attention?

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Are we talking about DK?! Mediocre does not fit here

What does dk do these days, other than pop corrosive, spam whip, and hope their target isn't paying attention?

With the best self heal in game? Heal to full, block , leap, until the next corrosive cones up? I don't know. It's the largest presence in PvP so I'm sure someone can tell you though.

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Heal to full, block

Well that sounds cool fun and unique lol.

That was my point, they nerfed most all of the cool fun unique stuff that once defined the DK class, somehow preserving only the braindead garbage that constantly draws forum complaint threads like this one. There's no fixing it.

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Heal to full, block

Well that sounds cool fun and unique lol.

That was my point, they nerfed most all of the cool fun unique stuff that once defined the DK class, somehow preserving only the braindead garbage that constantly draws forum complaint threads like this one. There's no fixing it.

Well yeah. It's a bit crappy right now. It's why I'd like to keep the damage of assassin's will, and DK whipping during corrosive. They're outliers only because everything else has gone to crap. Maybe Shalks; but the extra delay and position issues in game to go along with everyone moving at high speeds, people just only talk about it when they manage to somehow get clipped

Sergykid

corrosive is not as strong as u think, it's easy to kite it, costs much, and u would get hit normally for maybe 5% of ur hp anyway, and also having two dots on u the ult wouldn't help.
it was only a problem with constant heroism buff.

it's good just in burst scenarios like nb incap or sorc overload, but in these cases even board ult out resto ult help the same.
in bgs i think i saw almost half of dks actually use corrosive

gamma71

The people dying to corrosive are bad period. I must play against a lot of good player because everytime I use it I get stunned or like most people who have eyes can see me turn green and run away for 12 seconds and kite. Now I do agree when oaken pre nerf the uptime on it was unfair but that's because zos never listen to any player on pts.

Melzo

I don't want this skill to be weakened. I rarely play Dk and even less often use it. And instead of breaking skills or working mechanics, it’s better for ZOS to fix broken mechanics and skills so that they can compete with this skill. Break, not build. This is the policy of zos for the last year. Do you really want it?

taugrim

Melzo wrote: »

I don't want this skill to be weakened. I rarely play Dk and even less often use it. And instead of breaking skills or working mechanics, it’s better for ZOS to fix broken mechanics and skills so that they can compete with this skill. Break, not build. This is the policy of zos for the last year. Do you really want it?

No, what you're advocating is over-buffing many ults to compete with Corrosive Armor. That's a lot of work and harder to balance correctly.

Better to be surgical and balance the one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of class ults.

taugrim

gamma71 wrote: »

The people dying to corrosive are bad period. I must play against a lot of good player because everytime I use it I get stunned or like most people who have eyes can see me turn green and run away for 12 seconds and kite. Now I do agree when oaken pre nerf the uptime on it was unfair but that's because zos never listen to any player on pts.

Look objectively at the mechanics.

DK has unblockable stun and 7m range all melee attacks (Elder Dragon passive) and the class melee spammables also snare the target (Warmth passive).

DK has amazing anti-kiting tools, best-in-class in the game because they're passives and you get them for free by simply using your skills.

Silversmith

DK turns green. Run away. Win.

Tiphis

I think it does need to be tuned down but with zos who knows, they might just over nerf it as usual or heck they might buff it.