Corrosive Armor needs a nerf.

celner4_ESO

It’s by far the strongest ultimate in the game on the class that’s already brain dead friendly gameplay with its girthy fire and forget damage output and a CC with a root on a 4/8sec CD. Having the ultimate ontop of all the inherent strengths bypass all resistances for that long on such a small CD ultimate on top of it is beyond words how is this even a thing. This game could have competitive play if it wasn’t such a cheese fest all the time with this sh!t it’s a shame. People wondering why they are getting whipped for 30-40k, corrosive armor is how they achieve that. Literally is referenced as “God Mode” for a reason.

Come DK’s come rally and defend yourself desperately “not a DK main”.

EDIT: Adding this here because it keeps being brought up.

You could achieve 30k+ whips before high isle. To act like it’s a mythic problem is willfully ignorant. It’s survivability and dmg bonuses being overpowered have been a problem of the ultimate not any Mythic in combination with them even though they make it slightly worse than it already is. Let’s not obfuscate what the problem is though.

Brokensoul is a separate additive issue but eluding to 1 shot whips or corrosive not being a problem before Oakensoul is flat out dishonest.

taugrim

Corrosive Armor has been a confusing ultimate for sure.

It's simultaneously great for survivability and for damage.

divnyi

It's the worst of 3 DK ultimates IMO. Only good because ulti regens during ultimate duration, unlike ulti transformations, so the best ulti for ultigain builds.

Vaoh

So we’re gonna ask for nerfs to class abilities because an OP mythic item launched?

xDeusEJRx

Vaoh wrote: »

So we’re gonna ask for nerfs to class abilities because an OP mythic item launched?

Wait till they find out about the possibility of spamming shooting star morph of meteor back to back which has a better ulti gain than corrosive does

acastanza_ESO

Vaoh wrote: »

So we’re gonna ask for nerfs to class abilities because an OP mythic item launched?

Corrosive was already problematic before Oakensoul but Oakensoul makes it unbearable.
That said the only change it would make to it would be to change:

"While active, this ability and your direct damage dealt ignores enemy Physical and Spell Resistance."
To "While active, this ability and your direct damage dealt ignores the Physical and Spell Resistance of nearby enemies."

With this change the ultimate has an internally consistent logic. You've made your armor corrosive. Touching your armor damages enemies and makes them vulnerable to your attacks. It's insane that DK's ultimate just lests them completely ignore anyone's resistances with any skill no matter how far away from you they are. This change keeps the ultimate strong but makes it so an enemy actually has to engage withthe DK to be instantly melted.

xDeusEJRx

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

So we’re gonna ask for nerfs to class abilities because an OP mythic item launched?

Corrosive was already problematic before Oakensoul but Oakensoul makes it unbearable.
That said the only change it would make to it would be to change:

"While active, this ability and your direct damage dealt ignores enemy Physical and Spell Resistance."
To "While active, this ability and your direct damage dealt ignores the Physical and Spell Resistance of nearby enemies."

With this change the ultimate has an internally consistent logic. You've made your armor corrosive. Touching your armor damages enemies and makes them vulnerable to your attacks. It's insane that DK's ultimate just lests them completely ignore anyone's resistances with any skill no matter how far away from you they are. This change keeps the ultimate strong but makes it so an enemy actually has to engage withthe DK to be instantly melted.

I don't think this change is going to do anything at all. Most dk's aren't gonna drop their corrosive armor to spam light attacks at you from range. They're gonna be going in for the kill, so if they drop corrosive they're gonna jump on top of you anyways. Fossilize/shattering rocks you into a whip or spam Flames of oblivion whatever a DK needs to do but most DK's fight in melee range anyways you realize? So they'll probably be in melee range to burst you down regardless of that change

jaws343

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

So we’re gonna ask for nerfs to class abilities because an OP mythic item launched?

Corrosive was already problematic before Oakensoul but Oakensoul makes it unbearable.
That said the only change it would make to it would be to change:

"While active, this ability and your direct damage dealt ignores enemy Physical and Spell Resistance."
To "While active, this ability and your direct damage dealt ignores the Physical and Spell Resistance of nearby enemies."

With this change the ultimate has an internally consistent logic. You've made your armor corrosive. Touching your armor damages enemies and makes them vulnerable to your attacks. It's insane that DK's ultimate just lests them completely ignore anyone's resistances with any skill no matter how far away from you they are. This change keeps the ultimate strong but makes it so an enemy actually has to engage withthe DK to be instantly melted.

I don't think this change is going to do anything at all. Most dk's aren't gonna drop their corrosive armor to spam light attacks at you from range. They're gonna be going in for the kill, so if they drop corrosive they're gonna jump on top of you anyways. Fossilize/shattering rocks you into a whip or spam Flames of oblivion whatever a DK needs to do but most DK's fight in melee range anyways you realize? So they'll probably be in melee range to burst you down regardless of that change

Not to mention, by default, anyone near you in an opposing team/faction is considered an enemy in PVP.

While I don't think Corrosive needs to change, likely a better option if one where needed would be to only reduce the resistances of an opponent who attacks you while Corrosive is active.

Rhaegar75

Vaoh wrote: »

So we’re gonna ask for nerfs to class abilities because an OP mythic item launched?

100% this. Corrosive is fine per se: it's a strong and not cheap ultimate. You see it and you avoid it or work around it....I certainly do.

The problem is a Mythic item that allows Corrosive to be almost spammed.

Nerf to the Oakensoul: yes please!!
Nerf to corrosive? it makes no sense!!

celner4_ESO

Vaoh wrote: »

So we’re gonna ask for nerfs to class abilities because an OP mythic item launched?

You could achieve 30k+ whips before high isle. To act like it’s a mythic problem is willfully ignorant. It’s survivability and dmg bonuses being overpowered have been a problem of the ultimate not any Mythic in combination with them even though they make it slightly worse than it already is. Let’s not obfuscate what the problem is though.

celner4_ESO

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

So we’re gonna ask for nerfs to class abilities because an OP mythic item launched?

Corrosive was already problematic before Oakensoul but Oakensoul makes it unbearable.
That said the only change it would make to it would be to change:

"While active, this ability and your direct damage dealt ignores enemy Physical and Spell Resistance."
To "While active, this ability and your direct damage dealt ignores the Physical and Spell Resistance of nearby enemies."

With this change the ultimate has an internally consistent logic. You've made your armor corrosive. Touching your armor damages enemies and makes them vulnerable to your attacks. It's insane that DK's ultimate just lests them completely ignore anyone's resistances with any skill no matter how far away from you they are. This change keeps the ultimate strong but makes it so an enemy actually has to engage withthe DK to be instantly melted.

I would be all for this change but any kind of ultimate regeneration makes it extremely difficult to work with the small window of dps you’re given to burst them down. Being able to use it every 20-30sec using the methods of ultimate gen with how long this ultimate lasts is a nightmare to deal with.

celner4_ESO

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

So we’re gonna ask for nerfs to class abilities because an OP mythic item launched?

100% this. Corrosive is fine per se: it's a strong and not cheap ultimate. You see it and you avoid it or work around it....I certainly do.

The problem is a Mythic item that allows Corrosive to be almost spammed.

Nerf to the Oakensoul: yes please!!
Nerf to corrosive? it makes no sense!!

[snip]

You could achieve 30k+ whips with absurd sustained pressure and ridiculous survivability before high isle. To act like it’s a mythic problem [snip]. It’s survivability and dmg bonuses being overpowered have been a problem of the ultimate not any Mythic in combination with them even though they make it slightly worse than it already is. Let’s not obfuscate what the problem is though.

[edited for baiting]

jaws343

celner4_ESO wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

So we’re gonna ask for nerfs to class abilities because an OP mythic item launched?

100% this. Corrosive is fine per se: it's a strong and not cheap ultimate. You see it and you avoid it or work around it....I certainly do.

The problem is a Mythic item that allows Corrosive to be almost spammed.

Nerf to the Oakensoul: yes please!!
Nerf to corrosive? it makes no sense!!

[snip]

You could achieve 30k+ whips with absurd sustained pressure and ridiculous survivability before high isle. To act like it’s a mythic problem [snip]. It’s survivability and dmg bonuses being overpowered have been a problem of the ultimate not any Mythic in combination with them even though they make it slightly worse than it already is. Let’s not obfuscate what the problem is though.

I don't think anyone is saying that you couldn't do that before. You absolutely could. What the mythic does is provide you more opportunity to do that by giving a higher uptime of the ultimate + berserk + force + courage. So you get huge buffs that you rarely had access to before and you get high uptime of the ultimate. Those absolutely are a result of the ring.

celner4_ESO

jaws343 wrote: »

celner4_ESO wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

So we’re gonna ask for nerfs to class abilities because an OP mythic item launched?

100% this. Corrosive is fine per se: it's a strong and not cheap ultimate. You see it and you avoid it or work around it....I certainly do.

The problem is a Mythic item that allows Corrosive to be almost spammed.

Nerf to the Oakensoul: yes please!!
Nerf to corrosive? it makes no sense!!

[snip]

You could achieve 30k+ whips with absurd sustained pressure and ridiculous survivability before high isle. To act like it’s a mythic problem [snip]. It’s survivability and dmg bonuses being overpowered have been a problem of the ultimate not any Mythic in combination with them even though they make it slightly worse than it already is. Let’s not obfuscate what the problem is though.

I don't think anyone is saying that you couldn't do that before. You absolutely could. What the mythic does is provide you more opportunity to do that by giving a higher uptime of the ultimate + berserk + force + courage. So you get huge buffs that you rarely had access to before and you get high uptime of the ultimate. Those absolutely are a result of the ring.

The damage like you said was already a problem before the mythic, as was the uptime. You can generate ultimate and reduce the CD of it easily using ultipots, any supports using Arkasis/drakes rush, like there are many other ways besides this new mythic to make this ability even more ridiculous than it already is. It’s extremely powerful defensively and offensively and gear does not help make it any less irritating but ultimately the ability is overpowered as is. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

MEBengalsFan2001

Oxidize the green Dragon blood in your veins, limiting incoming damage to 3% of your Max Health and Dealing 347 Poison Damage to nearby enemies each second for 10 seconds. While active, this ability and your direct damage dealt ignores enemy Physical and Spell Resistance.
New effect
Deals Poison Damage, and your direct attacks ignore Physical and Spell Resistance while active.

I would simply remove the defensive side of the ultimate.

Urzigurumash

Corrosive was never a problem when the only high damage single target spammable it could be combined with was Dizzy Swing

Whip would save StamDK, they said

Urzigurumash

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Oxidize the green Dragon blood in your veins, limiting incoming damage to 3% of your Max Health and Dealing 347 Poison Damage to nearby enemies each second for 10 seconds. While active, this ability and your direct damage dealt ignores enemy Physical and Spell Resistance.
New effect
Deals Poison Damage, and your direct attacks ignore Physical and Spell Resistance while active.

I would simply remove the defensive side of the ultimate.

While this adjustment might appropriately balance this Ult for a Whip and Inferno Heavy using MagDK, a "traditional" Weapon Skill dependent StamDK might well find a better Pressure Ult in Vamp Ult. Seems odd when Corrosive was originally created as a way to give StamDK a short window of burst that was stronger than what a StamSorc could achieve, since a StamSorc had more burst in general.

I think perhaps we should discuss what the intended, original "spirit" of the Ult is. In this way, instead of removing the Mitigation, perhaps increase the Damage or Radius of the DoT, switch the Pen from the Direct Only to DoT only, or something. It's supposed be a Pressure Ult, for years the only big burst you could get with it outside of Execute Range was Dizzy Swing, as I said above, which has a Cast Time, which exposed the StamDK in a way block-castable, light attack weavable Whips do not.

To be clear, my concern is less for "how to keep StamDK relevant after hybridization", and more "how to keep Corrosive aligned with its original purpose" - it should be closer to Northern Storm than to Onslaught, in other words, in my opinion.

Of course, giving us back the old Onslaught would probably do well to make StamDK relevant again. That Ult gave us a really fun high-risk high-reward "mini-game". (it used to restore its Ult cost if it landed the final strike on a target)

celner4_ESO

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Oxidize the green Dragon blood in your veins, limiting incoming damage to 3% of your Max Health and Dealing 347 Poison Damage to nearby enemies each second for 10 seconds. While active, this ability and your direct damage dealt ignores enemy Physical and Spell Resistance.
New effect
Deals Poison Damage, and your direct attacks ignore Physical and Spell Resistance while active.

I would simply remove the defensive side of the ultimate.

Yeah or even having it apply minor resolve in its place even would be fine, dmg reduced to 3%is so strong…. But also being able to whip for 30k+ is absurd too. There’s also the heavy attack build still critting for 30k as well with nightblades which the nerf didn’t seem to do much to but that’s an entirely different conversation. Anything with a one shot cheese that doesn’t involve any risk or effort is subject to ridicule and I feel it’s more than fair to want some kind of balancing to it.

I main a magDK but I love playing necro and warden and Templar but as of right now I don’t have fun playing the other classes because I feel like not playing magDK with as strong as it is offensively and defensively it’s a no brained to just play what wins. I dot. Have the same amount of fun on the other classes I enjoy because I have to put in way more effort to achieve the same results. MagDK I pop the ultimate and line up burst every 4 seconds and I rarely ever lose. But trying to play other classes especially against similar builds as my MagDK I understand the frustration and I constantly am just swapping back to magDK knowing playing that takes way less effort to win fights/survive. No mobility is annoying, but I ignore runners anyways most people bum rush in for the fight and by then it’s too late for them xD

WreckfulAbandon

Every competent build has to now be capable of dealing with Corrosive spamming Oakensoul DKs who can buff their molten whips and prevent any kiting by spamming an undodgeable gap closer.

You cant realistically kite them without LoS, you wont outsustain them as they are spamming ults, you cant damage them or survive them with Corrosive up, and you can only heal up if your build has very strong self heals. Youre getting hit by an undodgeable gap closer the whole time youre out of melee range, and its direct damage so affected by Corrosive (unbelievably this amounts to being pressured on a low healing class like stamsorc). A single Fossilize + Molten is usually enough to put you back on the defensive which plays heavily into the DKs favor.

This isnt happening in a vacuum and has more to do with how broken Oakensoul is than Corrosive. But these builds are undeniably cancer and are already a scourge on PvP balance before they even reach widespread use.

acastanza_ESO

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

You cant realistically kite them without LoS, you wont outsustain them as they are spamming ults, you cant damage them or survive them with Corrosive up, and you can only heal up if your build has very strong self heals. Youre getting hit by an undodgeable gap closer the whole time youre out of melee range, and its direct damage so affected by Corrosive (unbelievably this amounts to being pressured on a low healing class like stamsorc). A single Fossilize + Molten is usually enough to put you back on the defensive which plays heavily into the DKs favor.

This isnt happening in a vacuum and has more to do with how broken Oakensoul is than Corrosive. But these builds are undeniably cancer and are already a scourge on PvP balance before they even reach widespread use.

[snip] DK is not Ok, its still way too strong especially with the insanity of Oakensoul. The class is fundamentally overpowered and it has to be fixed before they kill this game [snip].
It's a fundamental design principle for combat games that abilities should be offensive, defensive, not both, DK absoutely wrecks this paradigm in a way that makes everything else un-fun.
[snip]

[edited for baiting]

WreckfulAbandon

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

[snip] DK is not Ok, its still way too strong especially with the insanity of Oakensoul. The class is fundamentally overpowered and it has to be fixed before they kill this game [snip].
It's a fundamental design principle for combat games that abilities should be offensive, defensive, not both, DK absoutely wrecks this paradigm in a way that makes everything else un-fun.
[snip]

I dont agree with this and imo making this about DK takes the focus away from what it should be on: Oakensoul is absolutely and utterly broken. This is mostly because giving 100% Major Heroism uptime creates situations where ultimates that were balanced around having low uptime are being used so frequently its having a major impact on whats currently viable.

Urzigurumash

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The combat design team needs to wake up and fix this. DK is not Ok, its still way too strong especially with the insanity of Oakensoul. The class is fundamentally overpowered and it has to be fixed before they kill this game (which they absolutely are doing).
It's a fundamental design principle for combat games that abilities should be offensive, defensive, not both, DK absoutely wrecks this paradigm in a way that makes everything else un-fun.
Looking at you @ZOS_Gilliam

I dont agree with this and imo making this about DK takes the focus away from what it should be on: Oakensoul is absolutely and utterly broken. This is mostly because giving 100% Major Heroism uptime creates situations where ultimates that were balanced around having low uptime are being used so frequently its having a major impact on whats currently viable.

Whatever the impact of Oakensoul, it's not why Corrosive has become imbalanced compared to other Ults in a way it was not in the past: it gives Spell Pen.

WreckfulAbandon

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Whatever the impact of Oakensoul, it's not why Corrosive has become imbalanced compared to other Ults in a way it was not in the past: it gives Spell Pen.

I dont understand why youre making this argument. Corrosive makes the DK ignore resistances for its duration. Since ZOS is clearly moving towards hybridization it makes sense that both physical and spell resistance would be ignored. The problem is with the high uptime on Corrosive that is achievable through a single mythic that gives 100% Major Heroism uptime. I personally have no problem with ardent flame boosted whips ignoring spell resistance while Corrosive is up, as long as Corrosive is balanced in that it isnt possible to have 50%+ uptime.

Any setup that allows any decent uptime on Corrosive Armor should be looked at very closely by the combat team to ensure there is counterplay. Letting DK keep an undodgeable gap closer is a questionable decision when considering all the other factors. Either way my opinion is that the outlier is Oakensoul and it needs to be brought in line.

celner4_ESO

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Whatever the impact of Oakensoul, it's not why Corrosive has become imbalanced compared to other Ults in a way it was not in the past: it gives Spell Pen.

I dont understand why youre making this argument. Corrosive makes the DK ignore resistances for its duration. Since ZOS is clearly moving towards hybridization it makes sense that both physical and spell resistance would be ignored. The problem is with the high uptime on Corrosive that is achievable through a single mythic that gives 100% Major Heroism uptime. I personally have no problem with ardent flame boosted whips ignoring spell resistance while Corrosive is up, as long as Corrosive is balanced in that it isnt possible to have 50%+ uptime.

Any setup that allows any decent uptime on Corrosive Armor should be looked at very closely by the combat team to ensure there is counterplay. Letting DK keep an undodgeable gap closer is a questionable decision when considering all the other factors. Either way my opinion is that the outlier is Oakensoul and it needs to be brought in line.

(This isn’t directed at you, just in response to your thoughts.)

This argument is disingenuous because people have already been lowering the CD of Corrosive via ultimate pots and support sets from team or using thunderbug/arkasis/drakes themselves. This isn’t all the sudden becoming a problem. I get it you don’t want to get nerfed but let’s be reasonable here and not pretend like the problem is solely a new mythic. It’s been a problem. The entire last expansion it was. The only people crying foul are those that do not want it nerfed and it only takes room temperature IQ (similar to what’s needed to win as a DK) to know why that is the case.

Brokensoul is an entirely separate, additive issue.

Urzigurumash

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I dont understand why youre making this argument.

My point is simple: Corrosive was invented to give StamDK a unique way to deal damage over StamSorc. A few years later, this was no longer sufficient to give StamDK a unique way to deal damage over StamDen and StamCro, so the idea of a StamWhip became quite popular.

Now that everything is hybridized, neither Corrosive nor Whip are sufficient to make StamDK a competitive, unique class.

If Corrosive is nerfed, StamDK simply loses power over StamSorc, StamDen, and StamCro, and slides further into obsolescence.

It's neither an explicit argument for or against a change to Corrosive, and if I had seen somebody bring these points up in this thread I wouldn't've commented.

But, we've returned to the years long status quo before the buff to 2h skills in 2019: DK means MagDK. Just read this thread.

WreckfulAbandon

celner4_ESO wrote: »

This argument is disingenuous because people have already been lowering the CD of Corrosive via ultimate pots and support sets from team or using thunderbug/arkasis/drakes themselves. This isn’t all the sudden becoming a problem. I get it you don’t want to get nerfed but let’s be reasonable here and not pretend like the problem is solely a new mythic. It’s been a problem. The entire last expansion it was. The only people crying foul are those that do not want it nerfed and it only takes room temperature IQ (similar to what’s needed to win as a DK) to know why that is the case.

Brokensoul is an entirely separate, additive issue.

We are in agreement that high uptime on Corrosive Armor was not how the skill was originally designed/balanced. I just have a bit less of a problem with being able to maintain uptime with support/team sets than with simply putting on a 1 piece set (and getting a ton more major buffs as well).

Im definitely not trying to defend the high uptimes which is why I said any setup/mechanics that allow decent uptime of Corrosive need to be closely looked at. Its a strong ultimate and the further we get into this patch cycle the more we will likely see calls to nerf it. We should instead be looking at how these high uptimes are achieved. As it stands Oakensoul probably benefits DK the most so we are going to see fresh calls for DK nerfs as well. Just trying to get out ahead of all of that.

Urzigurumash

To clarify my previous statements - if my posts were neither in favor of nor against a change to Corrosive, why did I comment? Only to provide some further context on the purpose of Corrosive. Again, to be clear and concise:

1. a way to give StamDK an advantage over other Stam classes, who can also use the same Weapon Skills
2. a Pressure Ult more than a Burst Ult

Another point perhaps not explicitly discussed in this thread - with high uptimes on Corrosive its downsides become negligible, which downsides balance the Ult, historically. "The best Ult in the game" - well sure I agree, I've always agreed and that's why I played nothing but StamDK for years, but it shares a distinct trait with Onslaught - it is impossible to maximize your damage output with the Ult's buff without weakening your damage output when you do not have the Ult's buff.

Are there any other Ults for which this is the case?

olsborg

celner4_ESO wrote: »

It’s by far the strongest ultimate in the game on the class that’s already brain dead friendly

Agreed

divnyi

I don't understand why people in this thread try to make it sound like Corrosive burst is higher than Leap->Whip burst, which is less telegraphed and costs less.

Dorkener

Watch them give it the transformation ult (Vamp/Goliath) treatment and disable ult gen while active instead of nerfing the mythic

jaws343

divnyi wrote: »

I don't understand why people in this thread try to make it sound like Corrosive burst is higher than Leap->Whip burst, which is less telegraphed and costs less.

Mostly because corrosive burst ignores resistances, and since it is high costing, being able to have a high uptime on it is fairly strong.

But yeah, leap spam will be a problem with the mythic. As will dawnbreaker spam, meteor spam, incap spam, etc. Cheap costing ults that can be used far quicker due to major heroism permanently applied.