Unpopular opinion: ESO is NOT pay-to-win

Alemtuzumab

Pay-to-win criteria:
1. Cash shop contains weapon/armor that is unobtainable in the game. (✘)
2. Cash shop contains direct xp boost that is unobtainable in the game (easily). (✘)
3. Cash shop contains skip for previous contents. (✘)
4. Cash shop contains resources that is unobtainable in the game (easily). (✘)
5. Cash shop contains pay-for-convenience items. (✔)
(1)Skyshards/Skill line: you must complete the requirements on at least 1 character. (optional)
(2)Armory/character slots. (optional)
(3)pocket banker/merchant. (optional)

As you can see, ESO cash shop only offers what you want, such as optional convenience items and cosmetics, instead of what you need, like endgame gear, mats, etc.

Thus, strictly speaking, ESO is NOT pay-to-win.

Josh Strife Hayes has a great video on pay-to-win games, posted a few days ago. Here is the link:
What makes a game 'Pay to Win'?

[Editted for formating]

ShawnLaRock

?

I haven’t heard anyone say otherwise. Curious as to why this is relevant…

S.

VaranisArano

It's undoubtedly Pay-For-Convenience, though, and that has some interesting effects on how ZOS monetizes and develops new systems like the Armory.

Alemtuzumab

ShawnLaRock wrote: »

?

I haven’t heard anyone say otherwise. Curious as to why this is relevant…

S.

Google search "ESO pay to win"

redspecter23

I think many people would agree that ESO is not pay to win. The part that often gets overlooked in the discussion is how each player defines "winning" especially in a game you can enjoy in so many ways. If winning means competitive advantages in PvP or even PvE then you could still make minor arguments that ESO is pay to win, but not nearly on the same level as many other games. You do pay for things that can give some advantage, but it is normalized and generally accepted such as yearly chapters. You do pay for them. You do get an advantage. However, a majority of players accept this so it doesn't qualify as pay to win for them.

Also, consider that ESO has a large and very passionate housing community. If you "win" by participating in housing, either competitions or just for your own enjoyment, ESO is very much pay to win on a level of over $100 per new house potentially. Again, a general playerbase doesn't currently consider that winning in pay to win terms so it slides through. Player perceptions change so we may see the definition of pay to win change over time to cover other game monetization.

Parasaurolophus

The game has the best gear closed by paid content. But honestly I don't see any problem here. And Varden and Necromancer are generally OP classes for pvp.

Chips_Ahoy

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

ShawnLaRock wrote: »

?

I haven’t heard anyone say otherwise. Curious as to why this is relevant…

S.

Google search "ESO pay to win"

I fail to see the "unpopular", most of us (at least in forums) think is not pay to win.

and you can't take google seriously

Vevvev

I never thought it was pay to win. Pay to get access to the content? Sure, but base game sets used by a pro still kick butt in the competitive scene. Add in the fact many new sets can be traded to those who don't own it and the game is actually pretty decent. Sure broken combos still exist, but you can't just dump a few hundred dollars into the game and become an unkillable god. Still have to work for that power.

angrylizard

Necromancer is the best class in the game at the moment. When I last checked, you have to pay for that.

Toxic_Hemlock

I played a different MMO and quit, this video by the same author sums it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I1mwpkBo18&t=7s&ab_channel=JoshStrifeHayes

Not P2W to me, I love it here.

drunkendx

ShawnLaRock wrote: »

?

I haven’t heard anyone say otherwise. Curious as to why this is relevant…

S.

only ones I heard say it's p2w are ones who think cosmetics in crown store are p2w...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

This again?

P2W is a nebulous term and depending on how you define W(in), you are going to get a different answer. Is there a magic weapon you can buy in this game that can only be found in the Crown Store? No. Thankfully, ZOS has not jumped that particular shark, and I don't believe they ever will.

That said, this game is heavily monetized, and I don't think P2W is black and white. The crown store is certainly not limited to cosmetics. Time is the biggest thing you can effectively purchase in the crown store to give you an edge. I think that at least puts it on the spectrum of P2W. Want to be a in a raid group that gets a world first clear on patch day? Decent chances you may have paid for a skill line or two for the new OP class (that you also just paid for). Anyone serious about raiding has been asked for a trial dummy parse at some point, and just as importantly uses one to practice, can only be bought in the CS. Going for an trifecta? Well, what happens when you reset on death, you port to a house and use an aetherial well to rebuild your ultimate.

Are these mandatory for most people, maybe not, but money certainly gives you an edge in this game, even if it is simply to keep you sane. Don't even get me started on the necessity of the craft bag...

Edit: And thanks to crown gifting, smart loot, and the stickerbook (the last two I love), I can now buy crowns, sell them, and buy carries for nearly any bound weapon (or achievement/title for that matter). I recently sold several Tzogvin infernos and bought myself a Kinra Inferno.

Being able to effectively purchase in game currency with cash moves the needle. How much is certainly up for reasonable debate.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

ShawnLaRock wrote: »

?

I haven’t heard anyone say otherwise. Curious as to why this is relevant…

S.

You must be new here. LOL

WuffyCerulei

Some people may consider it p2w depending on the content they do. Pvpers might say necro and warden are p2w, as some pvers as well. Or gear. But buying a chapter doesn’t mean you only get the gear, ie Bahsei. You get a whole frickin chapter full of content. ESO is definitely pay-for-convenience, but the decision to buy said conveniences are fully on the player, especially when it all can be done in-game.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

This again?

P2W is a nebulous term and depending on how you define W(in), you are going to get a different answer. Is there a magic weapon you can buy in this game that can only be found in the Crown Store? No. Thankfully, ZOS has not jumped that particular shark, and I don't believe they ever will.

That said, this game is heavily monetized, and I don't think P2W is black and white. The crown store is certainly not limited to cosmetics. Time is the biggest thing you can effectively purchase in the crown store to give you an edge. I think that at least puts it on the spectrum of P2W. Want to be a in a raid group that gets a world first clear on patch day? Decent chances you may have paid for a skill line or two for the new OP class (that you also just paid for). Anyone serious about raiding has been asked for a trial dummy parse at some point, and just as importantly uses one to practice, can only be bought in the CS. Going for an trifecta? Well, what happens when you reset on death, you port to a house and use an aetherial well to rebuild your ultimate.

Are these mandatory for most people, maybe not, but money certainly gives you an edge in this game, even if it is simply to keep you sane. Don't even get me started on the necessity of the craft bag...

Well I gave in and bought Blackwood so I could join raiding groups again, Oreyn

And yes I agree with your points. If you want to specialise in something in ESO, prices can get hefty.

jedtb16_ESO

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Pay-to-win criteria:
1. Cash shop contains weapon/armor that is unobtainable in the game. (✘)
2. Cash shop contains direct xp boost that is unobtainable in the game (easily). (✘)
3. Cash shop contains skip for previous contents. (✘)
4. Cash shop contains resources that is unobtainable in the game (easily). (✘)
5. Cash shop contains pay-for-convenience items. (✔)
(1)Skyshards/Skill line: you must complete the requirements on at least 1 character. (optional)
(2)Armory/character slots. (optional)
(3)pocket banker/merchant. (optional)

As you can see, ESO cash shop only offers what you want, such as optional convenience items and cosmetics, instead of what you need, like endgame gear, mats, etc.

Thus, strictly speaking, ESO is NOT pay-to-win.

Josh Strife Hayes has a great video on pay-to-win games, posted a few days ago. Here is the link:
What makes a game 'Pay to Win'?

[Editted for formating]

before we continue this conversation can you please tell me how i will know when i have won?

as far as i know, and i could be wrong, there is no splash screen that says >>>>>>> GAME OVER. CONGRATULATIONS, YOU WON.

i could be wrong though.

xgoku1

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Pay-to-win criteria:
3. Cash shop contains skip for previous contents. (✘)

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

(1)Skyshards/Skill line: you must complete the requirements on at least 1 character. (optional)

Skyshards and skill-line unlocks are skips IMO. People pay good money to skip tedious content like Psijic Order and Mages Guild for alts.

This is a very subjective position, for many people anything even remotely affecting gameplay is considered 'pay-to-win'. Strictly speaking the Crown Store does have stuff that affect gameplay (and not just crown crate-style cosmetics) which are ONLY attainable by paying IRL money so ...

Bucky_13

This is not an unpopular opinion.

WhyMustItBe

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Thus, strictly speaking, ESO is NOT pay-to-win.

I don't hear anyone seriously claiming that ESO is pay to win. Generally it is billed as "pay for convenience." It mostly fits that bill, though it does hug the line. Things like instant crafting research completion scrolls from the cash shop allow repeat use, while the ones attainable in-game have a 24-hour cooldown. Still, that is only "winning" the ability to craft high end sets yourself. You could always just find a guild mate to craft them with your mats.

I think whether ESO is pay to win is the wrong question. I think a better question would be, are the prices they charge for convenience and cosmetics fair and competitive? 2-3 years ago I would have said yes. I remember getting the cool ice horse for 2500 crowns, which is the equivalent of around $25 USD, which was comparable to mounts in other games like WoW.

However, something happened internally within this company over the last few years that has turned that on its head. Items like that horse, or even special cosmetic outfits, are basically never released for just crowns anymore. Instead, everything is a "limited time" Crown Gem exclusive selling for between 400-600 Crown Gems. This serves to obfuscate the true price behind a layer of virtual currency abstraction. So, what does that actually come out to, dollar-wise?

Well, if you are lucky in the RNG casino when you buy crates for real money and gamble them at the Pacrooti crate merchant, you will average around 100 Gems per 5000 crown pack of 15 crates. Each of these costs about $50 USD. So just to do the quick math, that cool limited time horse that used to go for ~$25 will now cost you $200-$300 dollars in Crown Gems, if you are lucky on RNG. Houses can easilly go for twice that. And before anyone says anything about Endeavors, I have been collecting them almost since they released and still after two+ crown seasons don't have nearly enough for ONE of these, and you can't get houses for Endeavors to my knowledge.

That to me is simply a disgusting level of gouging behind a pretty egregious level of price obfuscation and real money gambling. I feel it is totally inappropriate in a game that already basically makes it mandatory to pay $14 per month for the crafting bag to avoid having no inventory space for loot. It isn't like it is costing them more to run the game now than three years ago either. This is just more of the money industry treating games the same way they do hedge funds, and maximizing value extraction at the cost of long-term viability and quality, just like any other Wall Street pump and dump asset.

So is ESO pay to win? No. But are its prices fair for the content we actually get? Also a big no from me. YMMV and I still enjoy the game for what it is, but the more they drive these prices to truly insane levels without any substantial equivalent improvement in the quality or quantity of actual content to show for it (still waiting on those new servers), it becomes increasingly difficult to stay positive about its future.

The sad thing is that most people who actually work there LOVE the game and Elder Scrolls and want to do the best they can. But like everything in our society, the ship of passion is ultimately driven to ground by the whims of high finance.

EF321

ESO is pretty pay to win, without paying you only have access for like 3 separate weeks a year, don't think that is enough to develop competitive character.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

This again?

P2W is a nebulous term and depending on how you define W(in), you are going to get a different answer. Is there a magic weapon you can buy in this game that can only be found in the Crown Store? No. Thankfully, ZOS has not jumped that particular shark, and I don't believe they ever will.

That said, this game is heavily monetized, and I don't think P2W is black and white. The crown store is certainly not limited to cosmetics. Time is the biggest thing you can effectively purchase in the crown store to give you an edge. I think that at least puts it on the spectrum of P2W. Want to be a in a raid group that gets a world first clear on patch day? Decent chances you may have paid for a skill line or two for the new OP class (that you also just paid for). Anyone serious about raiding has been asked for a trial dummy parse at some point, and just as importantly uses one to practice, can only be bought in the CS. Going for an trifecta? Well, what happens when you reset on death, you port to a house and use an aetherial well to rebuild your ultimate.

Are these mandatory for most people, maybe not, but money certainly gives you an edge in this game, even if it is simply to keep you sane. Don't even get me started on the necessity of the craft bag...

Well I gave in and bought Blackwood so I could join raiding groups again, Oreyn

And yes I agree with your points. If you want to specialise in something in ESO, prices can get hefty.

To be clear, I don't see anything wrong with that. Paying for a new chapter keeps the game going, and it would be unreasonable to expect that their wouldn't be content locked behind a DLC paywall.

I think the reality is that the driving force behind most of these threads are pride and ego. Most of us can agree that blatant P2W games are BAD (for lack of a better term). Nobody wants to do something bad, so they get very defensive about the notion that by playing a game that all of us clearly love, that they might be doing something bad.

That said, if we take a step back and try to be objective, it is very clear that playing this game with zero investment other than the original purchase, is near impossible. Call it P2W, call it whatever you want, the game is certainly monetized very heavily.

Ippokrates

angrylizard wrote: »

Necromancer is the best class in the game at the moment. When I last checked, you have to pay for that.

And somehow there are posts of people here at this forum complaing that they cannot get as much DPS with Necro as with other classes like Sorcerer xd

Kiralyn2000

Yeah, that's not an unpopular opinion at all.

Sure, there's a number of "OMG, P2W!" threads you can find with Google. But they get roundly disagreed with.


The only people who think it's p2w are people who have overly-broad definitions of "p2w". /shrug

Destai

It's not P2W, it's pay-to-not-be-inconvenienced.

FluffWit

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

I played a different MMO and quit, this video by the same author sums it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I1mwpkBo18&t=7s&ab_channel=JoshStrifeHayes

Not P2W to me, I love it here.

Haven't played Never Winter but that was really interesting.

alanmatillab16_ESO

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Pay-to-win criteria:
1. Cash shop contains weapon/armor that is unobtainable in the game. (✘)
2. Cash shop contains direct xp boost that is unobtainable in the game (easily). (✘)
3. Cash shop contains skip for previous contents. (✘)
4. Cash shop contains resources that is unobtainable in the game (easily). (✘)
5. Cash shop contains pay-for-convenience items. (✔)
(1)Skyshards/Skill line: you must complete the requirements on at least 1 character. (optional)
(2)Armory/character slots. (optional)
(3)pocket banker/merchant. (optional)

As you can see, ESO cash shop only offers what you want, such as optional convenience items and cosmetics, instead of what you need, like endgame gear, mats, etc.

Thus, strictly speaking, ESO is NOT pay-to-win.

Josh Strife Hayes has a great video on pay-to-win games, posted a few days ago. Here is the link:
What makes a game 'Pay to Win'?

[Editted for formating]

No one is seriously claiming it is so why bother with the post? Far from being an "unpopular opinion" it is a very "popular opinion".

Uvi_AUT

Of course it is.

Jim Sterling has a take on Pay to Win that stuck with me.
Customization, Skins and such is the main gameplaypart for a lot of players. So if getting skins is your goal in a game and there are skins that are only available in a cash shop, the game is per definition pay to win.

I holeheartedly agree with this. Winning doesnt always mean getting more powerful in terms of killing stuff.

spartaxoxo

Number 3 is absolutely in the Cash Shop. There are skill lines, skyshards, and the crafting research boosters that let you skip an inordinate amount of time becoming a master crafter.

Also many people would argue that antiquities being locked behind dlc is power in the cash shop.

On top of that some would argue that Necro and Wardens being the best classes is p2w, because they are better than the base game alternatives.

The resources thing is also a bit arguable, as while they don't restrict you from resources they flood you so much with them that people feel compelled to pay for the crafting bag regardless if they want to be eso+ subscribers or not.

Personally I don't think that ESO is p2w because apart from the crafting bag, none of the paid stuff outclasses the base game stuff by so much that you can't compete. The difference is noticeable but not by so much that talent doesn't generally override it.

And I think most people would agree that it's not p2w. But, the ones who have problems with certain items in the cash shop are not completely off base.

FrancisCrawford

Realistically, if you're an active player, you'll want to have a subscription and also buy the annual content.

If that's pay-to-win, then any subscription-only game would be pay-to-win as well.

So I think OP is right to focus on the question as to whether ADDITIONAL payments beyonnd that, i.e. for Crown Store stuff, ae necessary for character optimization.

spartaxoxo

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Realistically, if you're an active player, you'll want to have a subscription and also buy the annual content.

If that's pay-to-win, then any subscription-only game would be pay-to-win as well.

So I think OP is right to focus on the question as to whether ADDITIONAL payments beyonnd that, i.e. for Crown Store stuff, ae necessary for character optimization.

Mandatory subscriptions don't stratify players based on non-ingame concerns the way that P2W does. The problem with p2w is that players who don't pay are at a significant disadvantage to non-paid members at the activities they both can do.

I think ZOS actually does a pretty good job of keeping the gear and class disadvantage fairly small. You don't need anything from out of base game to do all the base game activities.

Tandor

Nobody with decent experience of MMOs and a proper understanding of what constitutes P2W believes ESO to be P2W. That doesn't prevent those who don't have those qualifications posting occasionally about how this and that makes ESO P2W but they are invariably in a minority of one.