Unpopular opinion: ESO is NOT pay-to-win

NotaDaedraWorshipper

drunkendx wrote: »

ShawnLaRock wrote: »

?

I haven’t heard anyone say otherwise. Curious as to why this is relevant…

S.

only ones I heard say it's p2w are ones who think cosmetics in crown store are p2w...

Fashion Scrolls Online is endgame!

Alemtuzumab

Narvuntien wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Of course it is.

Jim Sterling has a take on Pay to Win that stuck with me.
Customization, Skins and such is the main gameplaypart for a lot of players. So if getting skins is your goal in a game and there are skins that are only available in a cash shop, the game is per definition pay to win.

I holeheartedly agree with this. Winning doesnt always mean getting more powerful in terms of killing stuff.

I am not sure I completely agree with Jim-Stephanie Sterling. But I can follow the logic and I do agree with them that lookboxes are gambling even if you can't cash out. (They are non-binary use They/Them)

In order to follow their logic you need to look at micro transaction from there otherside of the equation, how is ESO monetized? To some extent in order for the game to exist it needs to make money and is there any other way to do that other than pay to "win"?

There needs to be some people spending thousands of dollars on crownstore items to keep the game running. We are playing on the backs of whales.

MMOs are leveraging the social interaction aspect, imagine you are a lonely down on your luck person but in ESO you have a fabulous house and a guild that loves to visit it. But in order to have this positive social interactions going you feel a psychological need to be spending money you likely don't have on the biggest house and pritfying it with the shiniest objects. Can you see how that can become a kind of dependence?

I am a person with more time than money so I put up with the annoiances and play, inventory management online from time to time. But not everyone has the time to do that they might only have a couple of hours to play each day and the amount of junk you get during events quickly fills your inventory and your bank and your other characters inventory. This will lead to people putting money down on a subscription.

In defence of ESO: The "best" gear is actually pretty meaningless since all the content can be completed with Hundings/Spriggans or whatever, similar for best class. Unless you are doing like Vet content achievement hunting the game is not preventing you from playing the game you have paid for to the best of your ability.

I, an unemployed person without income, prefer being able to buy to play rather than subscription models that lock me out of other MMOs. I can put down that $30 a year for the new expansion no problem. That isn't an option with ESO compedators. (Also expansions come out around my birthday )

Also, this game is generous with its cosmetics, usually you get something cool from completing quests, motifs can be bought and sold in the guild stores so you can get your hands on them. There are plenty of achievement based cosmetics that encourage gameplay and not getting your wallet out.

It is low on the Pay to Win scale but we have to understand it is still playing psychological tricks on the people susceptible to it.

In summary, it all comes to the balance of time-money ROI.

Your view is rather interesting for me because I'm on the other end of the scale---having more money than time. However, I don't feel like ESO needs some serious grind---most of the time you can get your desired item in less than an hour (leads, resources, guild store items, gears, etc.). I got my perfected Bahsei set in 3 vRG runs, 1st one took 4hrs with pug but the 2nd and 3rd one only took 40min each with guild.

Even if I don't have time to farm gold/mats, I can buy gold with crowns, meaning that I can gold out my gears in no time. So I'd say ESO is pretty balanced in terms of time-money ROI for both groups of ppl with more money/less time and ppl with more time/less money.

jedtb16_ESO

AJones43865 wrote: »

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Thus, strictly speaking, ESO is NOT pay-to-win.

I don't hear anyone seriously claiming that ESO is pay to win. Generally it is billed as "pay for convenience." It mostly fits that bill, though it does hug the line. Things like instant crafting research completion scrolls from the cash shop allow repeat use, while the ones attainable in-game have a 24-hour cooldown. Still, that is only "winning" the ability to craft high end sets yourself. You could always just find a guild mate to craft them with your mats.

I think whether ESO is pay to win is the wrong question. I think a better question would be, are the prices they charge for convenience and cosmetics fair and competitive? 2-3 years ago I would have said yes. I remember getting the cool ice horse for 2500 crowns, which is the equivalent of around $25 USD, which was comparable to mounts in other games like WoW.

However, something happened internally within this company over the last few years that has turned that on its head. Items like that horse, or even special cosmetic outfits, are basically never released for just crowns anymore. Instead, everything is a "limited time" Crown Gem exclusive selling for between 400-600 Crown Gems. This serves to obfuscate the true price behind a layer of virtual currency abstraction. So, what does that actually come out to, dollar-wise?

Well, if you are lucky in the RNG casino when you buy crates for real money and gamble them at the Pacrooti crate merchant, you will average around 100 Gems per 5000 crown pack of 15 crates. Each of these costs about $50 USD. So just to do the quick math, that cool limited time horse that used to go for ~$25 will now cost you $200-$300 dollars in Crown Gems, if you are lucky on RNG. Houses can easilly go for twice that. And before anyone says anything about Endeavors, I have been collecting them almost since they released and still after two+ crown seasons don't have nearly enough for ONE of these, and you can't get houses for Endeavors to my knowledge.

That to me is simply a disgusting level of gouging behind a pretty egregious level of price obfuscation and real money gambling. I feel it is totally inappropriate in a game that already basically makes it mandatory to pay $14 per month for the crafting bag to avoid having no inventory space for loot. It isn't like it is costing them more to run the game now than three years ago either. This is just more of the money industry treating games the same way they do hedge funds, and maximizing value extraction at the cost of long-term viability and quality, just like any other Wall Street pump and dump asset.

So is ESO pay to win? No. But are its prices fair for the content we actually get? Also a big no from me. YMMV and I still enjoy the game for what it is, but the more they drive these prices to truly insane levels without any substantial equivalent improvement in the quality or quantity of actual content to show for it (still waiting on those new servers), it becomes increasingly difficult to stay positive about its future.

The sad thing is that most people who actually work there LOVE the game and Elder Scrolls and want to do the best they can. But like everything in our society, the ship of passion is ultimately driven to ground by the whims of high finance.

Great post. Thanks for putting in the effort.

This is why I radically reduced my spending on ESO several years ago and never again will be spending on crowns or other cosmetics. [snip]

roflmao.... you think microsoft doesn't want your money?

[edited to remove quote]

Kwoung

AJones43865 wrote: »

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Pay-to-win criteria:
1. Cash shop contains weapon/armor that is unobtainable in the game. (✘)
2. Cash shop contains direct xp boost that is unobtainable in the game (easily). (✘)
3. Cash shop contains skip for previous contents. (✘)
4. Cash shop contains resources that is unobtainable in the game (easily). (✘)
5. Cash shop contains pay-for-convenience items. (✔)
(1)Skyshards/Skill line: you must complete the requirements on at least 1 character. (optional)
(2)Armory/character slots. (optional)
(3)pocket banker/merchant. (optional)

As you can see, ESO cash shop only offers what you want, such as optional convenience items and cosmetics, instead of what you need, like endgame gear, mats, etc.

Thus, strictly speaking, ESO is NOT pay-to-win.

Josh Strife Hayes has a great video on pay-to-win games, posted a few days ago. Here is the link:
What makes a game 'Pay to Win'?

[Editted for formating]

Except:

ZOS absolutely does put their best gear and classes behind a paywall. The strongest gear has always been one of the new sets that requires purchasing the latest content. And Warden and Necro classes are inherently the strongest, so have to buy new expansions to get those classes too. Most of the game is structured in a way that encourages lots of spending. For instance, the craft bag isn't pay to win, but it's pretty much required for a dedicated player trying to get things done and build new gear sets.

So you are right, strictly speaking, ESO is not pay to win. But your post didn't outline the whole picture either.

I would disagree. If Warden and Nerco were the strongest classes and gave "wins", you would see nothing else in BG's, Cyro, IC and trials, which isn't the case at all. Also, new sets? Most are garbage and if I had to name one all powerful set to rule them all, it would be Mothers Sorrow, which is available in the base game. Other than that, there is always a new flavor of the month and it changes constantly, but that doesn't mean anything... because every single bit of content in ESO can be completed efficiently using nothing but base game sets. Player skill and ability to weave far outweigh the effects of any gear, by a long shot.

And honestly, calling a paid DLC, Chapter or full on upgrade PTW is a bit disingenuous. Because if companies didn't keep expanding their content, and charging for it, there would be no game to play at all for anyone.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, all those things you listed can be bought in-game with gold, so that kind of negates the argument as well.

Gaebriel0410

I think that this whole trend of calling an expansion/chapter a paywall is downright bizarre.In most MMO's you can't even play 'endgame' without owning the latest expansion. It's not too weird a concept that if you want new content like classes, sets, dungeons or zones, you very likely have to pay for it.

Even in the often quoted 'good old days of games' you had to pay for expansions and new stuff.

I think as far as MMO's go, ESO is one of the most fair ones in regards to their payment model. For example in FF14 you have to pay a sub and they still dare to have an extensive cash shop, and if you ever unsub your house gets yoinked within the month.

The larger ESO houses are a bit on the pricy side yeah, but at least when I buy one, I can access it whenever I like instead of some weird rent system.

Kiralyn2000

AJones43865 wrote: »

Except:

ZOS absolutely does put their best gear and classes behind a paywall. The strongest gear has always been one of the new sets that requires purchasing the latest content.

Every MMO does this. Of course, they make it more required by including level cap increases, so if you don't buy the expansion, you're left behind entirely. Especially in PvP.

And every game with an expansion, particularly if they're online/MP, because if you don't have all the expansions, you either won't get matched with players who do have them, or you'll get run over by players who have the new gear & features of said expansion.


But if expansions are p2w, then the entire industry has been for decades, long before "cash shops" existed. Which is why that's an unfeasibly-broad definition of p2w.


edit: of course, if the gear/etc in a new DLC is weaker than the stuff before, people will yell that there's no reason for them to get it/waste of money/etc. And if it's all perfectly-horizontally-balanced.... well, that's not rationally possible in such a complex game.

Kwoung

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

Even in the often quoted 'good old days of games' you had to pay for expansions and new stuff.

Heck, in many you couldn't even level up to the new cap without buying the latest release. I remember a whole lot of folks back in EQ or was it EQ II, that were stuck at level 50 as others moved on to 60.

Raideen

Pay to win in FPS terms, no its not.
Pay to win in MMORPG terms, heavily debatable it is because often the end game for MMORPG's is item collection (mounts, pets, skins, etc).

"Winning" in an FPS is literally killing the enemy and winning the round. "

"Winning" in MMORPG's is the collection aspect, as they are a social game where showing off your collections to your peers is the "win".

Kiralyn2000

Raideen wrote: »

"Winning" in MMORPG's is the collection aspect, as they are a social game where showing off your collections to your peers is the "win".

Well, except that the original MMOs that "p2w" was coined about, were the open-world, loot-the-bodies PvP MMOs. With the "you have to enchant your gear to +12 in order to compete - oh, and good luck getting past +5 without Boosters from the cash shop" systems. And the "insurance" to keep people from looting your body of that +12 gear. And the "if you guild controls a zone, you get taxes/rewards/etc" systems. And better gear & faster mounts, but only in the cash shop.

And there's still plenty of PvP endgame competition in MMOs even if they're not that sleazy.

So, no. "Win" in MMOs is still based on direct competition with other players, not collecting things or socializing.



edit: oh, and don't get me started on the one Aeria game I tried once. Where there were monthly 'contests' that gave rewards for how much you spent in the cash shop that month. With the rewards including stuff like "ask a GM for a personal favor". If you spent $1k. In a month. So, yeah - I have a hard time taking "oh, but you can get a cool outfit!" seriously as a gauge of p2w.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

This again?

P2W is a nebulous term and depending on how you define W(in), you are going to get a different answer. Is there a magic weapon you can buy in this game that can only be found in the Crown Store? No. Thankfully, ZOS has not jumped that particular shark, and I don't believe they ever will.

That said, this game is heavily monetized, and I don't think P2W is black and white. The crown store is certainly not limited to cosmetics. Time is the biggest thing you can effectively purchase in the crown store to give you an edge. I think that at least puts it on the spectrum of P2W. Want to be a in a raid group that gets a world first clear on patch day? Decent chances you may have paid for a skill line or two for the new OP class (that you also just paid for). Anyone serious about raiding has been asked for a trial dummy parse at some point, and just as importantly uses one to practice, can only be bought in the CS. Going for an trifecta? Well, what happens when you reset on death, you port to a house and use an aetherial well to rebuild your ultimate.

Are these mandatory for most people, maybe not, but money certainly gives you an edge in this game, even if it is simply to keep you sane. Don't even get me started on the necessity of the craft bag...

Well I gave in and bought Blackwood so I could join raiding groups again, Oreyn

And yes I agree with your points. If you want to specialise in something in ESO, prices can get hefty.

To be clear, I don't see anything wrong with that. Paying for a new chapter keeps the game going, and it would be unreasonable to expect that their wouldn't be content locked behind a DLC paywall.

I think the reality is that the driving force behind most of these threads are pride and ego. Most of us can agree that blatant P2W games are BAD (for lack of a better term). Nobody wants to do something bad, so they get very defensive about the notion that by playing a game that all of us clearly love, that they might be doing something bad.

That said, if we take a step back and try to be objective, it is very clear that playing this game with zero investment other than the original purchase, is near impossible. Call it P2W, call it whatever you want, the game is certainly monetized very heavily.

Agreed.

Kwoung

Raideen wrote: »

Pay to win in FPS terms, no its not.
Pay to win in MMORPG terms, heavily debatable it is because often the end game for MMORPG's is item collection (mounts, pets, skins, etc).

"Winning" in an FPS is literally killing the enemy and winning the round. "

"Winning" in MMORPG's is the collection aspect, as they are a social game where showing off your collections to your peers is the "win".

I don't see it that way in MMO's. The definition is the same across all genre's. MMO's offer PVP, Trials, leaderboards, etc... which do give you a chance to win/lose as well. Also, you can't really win if something has no affect across the entire playerbase and isn't a core competitive feature of the game. Clothing and housing can't be "won", because it was not implemented to be competitive. That's not to say someone can't feel they won if they assemble their perfect outfit/house, but that is not part of the game design, it is simply something someone made up in their head. Which if you go down that path, leaves the door wide open for anyone to say anything could be PTW. Like: I have the most tattoo's, I win!

Which is why we have definitions, PTW is having a competitive edge due to something you purchased with cash and isn't available with normal gameplay.

So by definition, since pretty much all crown items can be bought with gold in game... ESO doesn't even come close to being PTW, as having more cash gives no advantage at all over decent gameplay.

Tandor

Kwoung wrote: »

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

Even in the often quoted 'good old days of games' you had to pay for expansions and new stuff.

Heck, in many you couldn't even level up to the new cap without buying the latest release. I remember a whole lot of folks back in EQ or was it EQ II, that were stuck at level 50 as others moved on to 60.

Which is fine in my book. If you want to do all the content then buy all the game. If the game is taken forward then you either go forward with it or stand still in the game - which is fine if that's what you want, but to expect everything free from hereon because you bought the base game when it was on sale some years ago is unrealistic, to say the least.

spartaxoxo

Reverb wrote: »

I don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all, I think all rational people understand this isn’t pay to win. There is not a single thing in the crown store that gives a gameplay advantage that isn’t also available in-game.

The ayelid well. People using it to always start Battlegrounds with ult and able to requeue immediately. Someone else has to go farm it which can significantly increase wait times or more commonly just start the match at a disadvantage. I only recently learned it was being used that way by someone asking for everyone to start in the same ult state.

DagenHawk

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Pay-to-win criteria:

Dude...only trolls say otherwise.

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

Which is why we have definitions, PTW is having a competitive edge due to something you purchased with cash and isn't available with normal gameplay.

So by definition, since pretty much all crown items can be bought with gold in game... ESO doesn't even come close to being PTW, as having more cash gives no advantage at all over decent gameplay.

It isn't just something unavailable with normal gameplay, but something that cannot be acquired in a reasonable amount of time or effort without spending money. Or the paid item is strictly superior than its unpaid counterpart.

Like for example PWI allowed people to exchange coins for their paid currency. But the gear in there could easily set you back a grand IRL. Most people who couldn't pay had absolutely no chance in pvp because the difference was overwhelming. That isn't the case in this game.

Tandor

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

I don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all, I think all rational people understand this isn’t pay to win. There is not a single thing in the crown store that gives a gameplay advantage that isn’t also available in-game.

The ayelid well. People using it to always start Battlegrounds with ult and able to requeue immediately. Someone else has to go farm it which can significantly increase wait times or more commonly just start the match at a disadvantage. I only recently learned it was being used that way by someone asking for everyone to start in the same ult state.

I don't know the item or BGs, but what you describe sounds like Pay for Convenience, as the item is available in the game and if it's that essential for BGs then there's no reason why players can't farm it beforehand.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Of course it isnt

Sylvermynx

If this game was p2w, I wouldn't be pissing and moaning about my high ping and not being able to kill more than 2-3 mobs in overland....

spartaxoxo

Tandor wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

I don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all, I think all rational people understand this isn’t pay to win. There is not a single thing in the crown store that gives a gameplay advantage that isn’t also available in-game.

The ayelid well. People using it to always start Battlegrounds with ult and able to requeue immediately. Someone else has to go farm it which can significantly increase wait times or more commonly just start the match at a disadvantage. I only recently learned it was being used that way by someone asking for everyone to start in the same ult state.

I don't know the item or BGs, but what you describe sounds like Pay for Convenience, as the item is available in the game and if it's that essential for BGs then there's no reason why players can't farm it beforehand.

The ayelid well is only available in the cash shop, and replenishes all your resources after an extremely short channel, including your ultimate. It's vastly superior to trying to build up before requeuing the normal way, as instantly requeuing makes it more likely you'll get into another BGs quickly. This is why a lot of people simply opt to build what they can while waiting for queue to pop then going in as is instead of farming ult and then queuing.

The antiquity you're thinking of only produces a blue light, it doesn't give you anything for combat.

Raideen

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

"Winning" in MMORPG's is the collection aspect, as they are a social game where showing off your collections to your peers is the "win".

Well, except that the original MMOs that "p2w" was coined about, were the open-world, loot-the-bodies PvP MMOs. With the "you have to enchant your gear to +12 in order to compete - oh, and good luck getting past +5 without Boosters from the cash shop" systems. And the "insurance" to keep people from looting your body of that +12 gear. And the "if you guild controls a zone, you get taxes/rewards/etc" systems. And better gear & faster mounts, but only in the cash shop.

And there's still plenty of PvP endgame competition in MMOs even if they're not that sleazy.

So, no. "Win" in MMOs is still based on direct competition with other players, not collecting things or socializing.



edit: oh, and don't get me started on the one Aeria game I tried once. Where there were monthly 'contests' that gave rewards for how much you spent in the cash shop that month. With the rewards including stuff like "ask a GM for a personal favor". If you spent $1k. In a month. So, yeah - I have a hard time taking "oh, but you can get a cool outfit!" seriously as a gauge of p2w.

None of that changes the fact that MMORPGs (which is what we are talking about here, not MMO's, those are two different things) are social based games and where "showing off" is "winning".

I recall going back to the earliest days of wow in 2004 when people had some rare drop like thunderfury, standing in Orgimmar on top of the bank for hours showing off the loot.

In ESO much of the "loot" is paid for with real money.

Raideen

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Pay to win in FPS terms, no its not.
Pay to win in MMORPG terms, heavily debatable it is because often the end game for MMORPG's is item collection (mounts, pets, skins, etc).

"Winning" in an FPS is literally killing the enemy and winning the round. "

"Winning" in MMORPG's is the collection aspect, as they are a social game where showing off your collections to your peers is the "win".

I don't see it that way in MMO's. The definition is the same across all genre's. MMO's offer PVP, Trials, leaderboards, etc... which do give you a chance to win/lose as well. Also, you can't really win if something has no affect across the entire playerbase and isn't a core competitive feature of the game. Clothing and housing can't be "won", because it was not implemented to be competitive. That's not to say someone can't feel they won if they assemble their perfect outfit/house, but that is not part of the game design, it is simply something someone made up in their head. Which if you go down that path, leaves the door wide open for anyone to say anything could be PTW. Like: I have the most tattoo's, I win!

Which is why we have definitions, PTW is having a competitive edge due to something you purchased with cash and isn't available with normal gameplay.

So by definition, since pretty much all crown items can be bought with gold in game... ESO doesn't even come close to being PTW, as having more cash gives no advantage at all over decent gameplay.

Winning in a social game has a different meaning as I explained to other posters above.

As far as buying crowns with gold. No, I disagree. ZOS does not have an official method for exchanging in game gold for crowns, which makes gold/crown trading not 100% safe. In fact, there is NO method for exhanging gold for crowns. What you exchange is gold for a gift and not everything is giftable, nor is it 100% safe and reliable.

Uvi_AUT

Tandor wrote: »

You can define winning however you want, but it isn't how everyone else defines winning in the context of Pay to Win. You're fulfilling your ambition to own every mount, but that isn't winning the game in any generally accepted sense.

Pay to Win is about being able to buy something that is only available in the cash shop that gives you a competitive advantage over a player who only uses things that are available through playing the game. Owning every mount in the game may well fulfil a player's most important purpose in playing the game but it would not give that player any competitive advantage whatsoever, and therefore having to buy some of them in the cash shop doesn't constitute Pay to Win.

Who says that? You? The "general meaning"? Those change over time and are often also a matter of opinion.
I will concede that monetizing characterpower is worse than monetizing character-appearance, because one can absolutely stop you from being able to play the game at all (see Neverwinter).
What I cant concur with is your interpretation of pay2win.
Look at WoW for instance. I played that one for a long time. I couldnt care less about the Mythicraiders and their Armor with the Stats and Stuff. What I found impressive where the people with all the mounts an pets, and all the Achievements. They won the game, not the Raiders.

Anyways: Can we at least agree on two things? First, the stuff in ESOs Cash Shop is ridiculously expensive. Second, Lootboxes are predatory monetization, which is why they are already illegal in some countries, and will be in gaming everywhere in the future.

Kwoung

Raideen wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Pay to win in FPS terms, no its not.
Pay to win in MMORPG terms, heavily debatable it is because often the end game for MMORPG's is item collection (mounts, pets, skins, etc).

"Winning" in an FPS is literally killing the enemy and winning the round. "

"Winning" in MMORPG's is the collection aspect, as they are a social game where showing off your collections to your peers is the "win".

I don't see it that way in MMO's. The definition is the same across all genre's. MMO's offer PVP, Trials, leaderboards, etc... which do give you a chance to win/lose as well. Also, you can't really win if something has no affect across the entire playerbase and isn't a core competitive feature of the game. Clothing and housing can't be "won", because it was not implemented to be competitive. That's not to say someone can't feel they won if they assemble their perfect outfit/house, but that is not part of the game design, it is simply something someone made up in their head. Which if you go down that path, leaves the door wide open for anyone to say anything could be PTW. Like: I have the most tattoo's, I win!

Which is why we have definitions, PTW is having a competitive edge due to something you purchased with cash and isn't available with normal gameplay.

So by definition, since pretty much all crown items can be bought with gold in game... ESO doesn't even come close to being PTW, as having more cash gives no advantage at all over decent gameplay.

Winning in a social game has a different meaning as I explained to other posters above.

As far as buying crowns with gold. No, I disagree. ZOS does not have an official method for exchanging in game gold for crowns, which makes gold/crown trading not 100% safe. In fact, there is NO method for exhanging gold for crowns. What you exchange is gold for a gift and not everything is giftable, nor is it 100% safe and reliable.

No, it doesn't have a different meaning at all. I kill a player in PVP, I won that fight, I get to the top of the leaderboards displayed to all users who wish to view them, I won that fame. These are things the game supports as competitive and not a single item offered in the crown store will help you achieve any of them. You can't win at housing, except maybe if your guild holds a contest for its members, same for fashion, but neither of those has any affect on gameplay or the rest of the playerbase in the slightest. In fact, 100% of the playerbase outside of your guild, and probably most of the players in your guild, have no idea you won anything. It is simply player made content created to amuse those that participated in it. When ZOS implements a housing leaderboard, or a list of the richest players, or even lists the winners of other social activities, then I will agree with you.

Like I said previously, if you want to stretch the word "winning" to mean any made up thing you want, then literally every game ever made is PTW, by someone's personal definition. [snip]

As for the safe exchange of crowns, there are numerous places that will literally guarantee the transaction, my guild hosts its own and we too guarantee the transaction between our members. I am not here to argue about crown exchanges or their rates though. I am simply stating there are secure methods for which to exchange gold for crowns, and it is a supported feature of the game, regardless of whether ZOS hosts a direct exchange themselves or not.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Uvi_AUT

Kwoung wrote: »

No, it doesn't have a different meaning at all. I kill a player in PVP, I won that fight, I get to the top of the leaderboards displayed to all users who wish to view them, I won that fame. These are things the game supports as competitive and not a single item offered in the crown store will help you achieve any of them. You can't win at housing, except maybe if your guild holds a contest for its members, same for fashion, but neither of those has any affect on gameplay or the rest of the playerbase in the slightest. In fact, 100% of the playerbase outside of your guild, and probably most of the players in your guild, have no idea you won anything.

[snip]

[snip] Most players in a social mmorpg dont give a hoot about who pwned the most.

Awesome cosmetics, houses, or general attitude on the other hand, those are feats we can respect and strife to. Just because there is no bright flashing leaderboard (I am just assuming its a flashing board, I never actually bothered to look where it is ingame to be honest) doesnt mean players wont notice.

That being said, of course that gameplay-style is equally relevant. Everyone should be able to play however and whatever they want. [snip]

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Raideen

Kwoung wrote: »

No, it doesn't have a different meaning at all. I kill a player in PVP, I won that fight, I get to the top of the leaderboards displayed to all users who wish to view them, I won that fame. These are things the game supports as competitive and not a single item offered in the crown store will help you achieve any of them. You can't win at housing, except maybe if your guild holds a contest for its members, same for fashion, but neither of those has any affect on gameplay or the rest of the playerbase in the slightest. In fact, 100% of the playerbase outside of your guild, and probably most of the players in your guild, have no idea you won anything. It is simply player made content created to amuse those that participated in it. When ZOS implements a housing leaderboard, or a list of the richest players, or even lists the winners of other social activities, then I will agree with you.

Your example of killing a player and "winning" is a small fraction of what the game offers. For many people in MMORPG's "winning" is getting that desirable collectable be it armor, a mount, a pet etc. I was a High Warlord in World of Warcraft and just having the armor and title alone garned you huge favor within the community.

Kwoung wrote: »

Like I said previously, if you want to stretch the word "winning" to mean any made up thing you want, then literally every game ever made is PTW, by someone's personal definition. [snip]

I am not stretching the word "winning" but giving different examples of what it means to win in an MMORPG and a huge part of an MMORPG is collecting, especially for those who like oufits, housing, mounts etc. And in this regard. ESO is undoubtedly "pay to win" as most of this stuff can only be had through the crown store.

Kwoung wrote: »

As for the safe exchange of crowns, there are numerous places that will literally guarantee the transaction, my guild hosts its own and we too guarantee the transaction between our members. I am not here to argue about crown exchanges or their rates though. I am simply stating there are secure methods for which to exchange gold for crowns, and it is a supported feature of the game, regardless of whether ZOS hosts a direct exchange themselves or not.

Until MSZOS has an official channel to exchange gold for crowns, then there is no 100% safe bet of you receiving your goods, outside of the fact these mediators always charge a fee. If you could purchase crowns with gold in game through official channels, then the arguement of not needing to spend real money has validity, but until then crown gold exhange is done outside of game and is a risk, it is not part of the game. Its a 3rd party venture.

Kwoung wrote: »

[snip]

Well this is simply not the case. I observed this in real time for a decade and a half. Folks with the cool mounts, cool weapons, cool outfits, cool pets are seen as "winning" because they obtained a hard to get item.

In ESO, hard to get items are mostly done through the crown store (due to limited duration sale times) and the fact that most of the stuff is not available in game.

I am happy for you that your choice of playstyle does not demand you spending thousands of dollars for in game purchases. But myself and many others who like to decorate, create fun environments inside of housing and or craft outfits for our characters are on the opposite end of that spectrum. The amount of money we have to spend IRL and the amount of gold we have to spend in game is completely unbalanced. The only way to "win" in ESO housing is to spend a lot of money.

Want a good example. The halloween competition held by one of the prominent you tube ESO content creators. Every house that won, literally won, had to be purchased through the crown store for at least 140 USD, not to mention the furnishing items.

This is a person who is sponsored by ZOS and many of the judges were also official partners of the game.

[edited to remove quote]

TwinLamps

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Pay-to-win criteria:
1. Cash shop contains weapon/armor that is unobtainable in the game. (✘)
2. Cash shop contains direct xp boost that is unobtainable in the game (easily). (✘)
3. Cash shop contains skip for previous contents. (✘)
4. Cash shop contains resources that is unobtainable in the game (easily). (✘)
5. Cash shop contains pay-for-convenience items. (✔)
(1)Skyshards/Skill line: you must complete the requirements on at least 1 character. (optional)
(2)Armory/character slots. (optional)
(3)pocket banker/merchant. (optional)

As you can see, ESO cash shop only offers what you want, such as optional convenience items and cosmetics, instead of what you need, like endgame gear, mats, etc.

Thus, strictly speaking, ESO is NOT pay-to-win.

Josh Strife Hayes has a great video on pay-to-win games, posted a few days ago. Here is the link:
What makes a game 'Pay to Win'?

[Editted for formating]

1. ok
2. ok
3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
4. ok
5. ok

EnerG

A majority of people who call eso pay to win def describe pay for convenience when i ask them to describe what they mean. And thats okey because its def pay for convenience and I think thats an Okey bussiness model this day in age (def still a little scumy however could be alot worse, but i dont mean alot worse to defend it being JUST okey I do want the game to prosper)

Uvi_AUT

EnerG wrote: »

A majority of people who call eso pay to win def describe pay for convenience when i ask them to describe what they mean. And thats okey because its def pay for convenience and I think thats an Okey bussiness model this day in age (def still a little scumy however could be alot worse, but i dont mean alot worse to defend it being JUST okey I do want the game to prosper)

Oh boy, you really pulled on a social-economic Thread here thats way to massive for a gamingforum to untangle.
Lets just say, the game should prosper even without any kind of cash shop if the worlds economy wasnt so screwed up. I think in ten years, everything will be a lot different than it is today. The time of the investors and CEOs gaining 1000s of percents in winnings will soon be over.

Kwoung

Raideen wrote: »

<snipped>

I was actually going to delete my above post, but you replied to quickly. Obviously we disagree and have completely different interpretations of what is considered winning. Since I can't stretch my interpretation to include subjective things like having a cool outfit or a big house, which at best I view as simply showing off to a few people, not any sort of actual win... we will never see eye to eye on the matter.

_adhyffbjjjf12

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

<snipped>

I was actually going to delete my above post, but you replied to quickly. Obviously we disagree and have completely different interpretations of what is considered winning. Since I can't stretch my interpretation to include subjective things like having a cool outfit or a big house, which at best I view as simply showing off to a few people, not any sort of actual win... we will never see eye to eye on the matter.

its not at all, in fact in a really healthy PVE MMORPG with a friendly culture people enjoy seeing others with cool looking setups and often celebrate and copy each other, the source is irrelevant, i.e gold, cash, pve etc. for example in a game Like WOW that is deeply divisive and about being top dog people are often nasty about others how buy cool looking cosmetic items, whereas in games like WOW, LOTR. GW2 its not an issue. This is one of the reasons Titles are so important, and should not be sold in runs, titles = achievements.

I once bought a staff skin from the shop because i saw someone with it and I thought it looked really cool. Happy to support the game, and loved wearing that staff so win win.