Unpopular opinion: ESO is NOT pay-to-win

newtinmpls

I think that the discussion about what IS pay-to-win is interesting.

My understanding is that it is about getting a thing which gives a significant in-game advantage IN COMBAT that can NOT be obtained without shelling out money specifically to get it.

If you can earn it by in-game activities, then it's not really pay to win.

If the advantage it gives is not combat, then it's not really pay to win.

Or so I am given to understand.

Sylvermynx

newtinmpls wrote: »

I think that the discussion about what IS pay-to-win is interesting.

My understanding is that it is about getting a thing which gives a significant in-game advantage IN COMBAT that can NOT be obtained without shelling out money specifically to get it.

If you can earn it by in-game activities, then it's not really pay to win.

If the advantage it gives is not combat, then it's not really pay to win.

Or so I am given to understand.

This has always been my understanding as well.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

I don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all, I think all rational people understand this isn’t pay to win. There is not a single thing in the crown store that gives a gameplay advantage that isn’t also available in-game.

The ayelid well. People using it to always start Battlegrounds with ult and able to requeue immediately. Someone else has to go farm it which can significantly increase wait times or more commonly just start the match at a disadvantage. I only recently learned it was being used that way by someone asking for everyone to start in the same ult state.

I don't know the item or BGs, but what you describe sounds like Pay for Convenience, as the item is available in the game and if it's that essential for BGs then there's no reason why players can't farm it beforehand.

The ayelid well is only available in the cash shop, and replenishes all your resources after an extremely short channel, including your ultimate. It's vastly superior to trying to build up before requeuing the normal way, as instantly requeuing makes it more likely you'll get into another BGs quickly. This is why a lot of people simply opt to build what they can while waiting for queue to pop then going in as is instead of farming ult and then queuing.

The antiquity you're thinking of only produces a blue light, it doesn't give you anything for combat.

The well you speak of is still not P2W as it does not make a player character more powerful than it can be from what is obtainable in-game. It is merely paid for convenience. I am not suggesting you are saying otherwise. Just commenting on the item's use.

Kwoung

Raideen wrote: »

Winning in a social game has a different meaning as I explained to other posters above.

Just want to point out, that it is impossible to win in a social game. If it is social, it is social... if you can win, by definition it is a competition. If it is a competition, there is scoring and a clear means in which someone can achieve a "win", generally a leaderboard of some type in most games. The leaderboards in ESO cover Alliance War, Trials, Arenas and Battlegrounds... that's it, there are no other ways to win. These are also very clear, you achieved a score of X by completing activity Y, putting you above other players rankings. If the game doesn't rank it, you can't win it... by purchasing items or otherwise, sorry.

Franchise408

Why is this unpopular? ESO is not pay to win.

Nisekev

It's not "pay to win" per se, but it has unreasonable amount of monetization for a premium game with subscription.

newtinmpls

Nisekev wrote: »

It's not "pay to win" per se, but it has unreasonable amount of monetization for a premium game with subscription.

I would agree IF the subscription was required to play the game. It was at first. No longer, though.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

I don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all, I think all rational people understand this isn’t pay to win. There is not a single thing in the crown store that gives a gameplay advantage that isn’t also available in-game.

The ayelid well. People using it to always start Battlegrounds with ult and able to requeue immediately. Someone else has to go farm it which can significantly increase wait times or more commonly just start the match at a disadvantage. I only recently learned it was being used that way by someone asking for everyone to start in the same ult state.

I don't know the item or BGs, but what you describe sounds like Pay for Convenience, as the item is available in the game and if it's that essential for BGs then there's no reason why players can't farm it beforehand.

The ayelid well is only available in the cash shop, and replenishes all your resources after an extremely short channel, including your ultimate. It's vastly superior to trying to build up before requeuing the normal way, as instantly requeuing makes it more likely you'll get into another BGs quickly. This is why a lot of people simply opt to build what they can while waiting for queue to pop then going in as is instead of farming ult and then queuing.

The antiquity you're thinking of only produces a blue light, it doesn't give you anything for combat.

The well you speak of is still not P2W as it does not make a player character more powerful than it can be from what is obtainable in-game. It is merely paid for convenience. I am not suggesting you are saying otherwise. Just commenting on the item's use.

In general I agree with you. For Battlegrounds, I think it's probably a little p2w. If you start with ult and your enemy doesn't, that's a pretty big advantage.

I think they could probably fix the only small aspects that are p2w by making the skills only able to be purchased at 50+ and making everyone start in the same ultimate state in BGs, personally.

spartaxoxo

newtinmpls wrote: »

I think that the discussion about what IS pay-to-win is interesting.

My understanding is that it is about getting a thing which gives a significant in-game advantage IN COMBAT that can NOT be obtained without shelling out money specifically to get it.

If you can earn it by in-game activities, then it's not really pay to win.

If the advantage it gives is not combat, then it's not really pay to win.

Or so I am given to understand.

P2W is when you're able to buy an item in the cash shop that gives you a competitive advantage over another player that is either isn't available in the game, is significantly superior to what's available in the game, or allows you to collect better resources at a significantly faster (again to a competitive advantage) rate.

So for example in PWI you could eventually buy any cash shop items with coin. But they made the items cost like 1000 dollars irl money and it took dedicated players on average over a year to farm it up without cheating or guild intervention. If you didn't have this gear, you were at a massive disadvantage to the paid gear. As a result there was a lot of botting in that game and a lot of whales. This was definitely a P2W game despite being able to get cash shop items outside of the cash shop.

MentalxHammer

I am an end game PvP player and I don’t use ESO plus. I make sacrifices in that I only craft food and potions, and rely on friends to craft gear. When I need to farm gear from dlc or rearrange my house I cough up and purchase a month. You certainly need to strategize, but it’s entirely possible to play ESO at a top level in PvP without ESO plus.

ESO is not pay to win in my opinion.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Tandor wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Of course it is.

Jim Sterling has a take on Pay to Win that stuck with me.
Customization, Skins and such is the main gameplaypart for a lot of players. So if getting skins is your goal in a game and there are skins that are only available in a cash shop, the game is per definition pay to win.

I holeheartedly agree with this. Winning doesnt always mean getting more powerful in terms of killing stuff.

Totally false. Wearing the skin of your choice is not winning. It simply means the game caters well to your preferred playstyle, but it doesn't confer you with any advantage over another player who doesn't wear that skin and that is very much at the heart of any commonly accepted definition of Pay to Win.

Allright, then riddle me this.
If my definition of winning would be to own every mount in the game, how would I "win" without "pay" ?
As for the definition. I strongly disagree with that. Cosmetics are definitely pay to win, if theyre deliberately way cooler than the ones you can get by playing the game.
Remember, Combat is by no means the most important part of an mmorpg for many people.

You can define winning however you want, but it isn't how everyone else defines winning in the context of Pay to Win. You're fulfilling your ambition to own every mount, but that isn't winning the game in any generally accepted sense.

Pay to Win is about being able to buy something that is only available in the cash shop that gives you a competitive advantage over a player who only uses things that are available through playing the game. Owning every mount in the game may well fulfil a player's most important purpose in playing the game but it would not give that player any competitive advantage whatsoever, and therefore having to buy some of them in the cash shop doesn't constitute Pay to Win.

Now, if those cash shop mounts came with enhanced stats over the ones in the game, and those enhanced stats gave you a competitive advantage over other players who didn't buy those mounts, then that would constitute Pay to Win.

Not sure you see it, but you are doing the same thing he is doing from the opposite end of the spectrum. This is an MMO. There are lots of ways you can play and enjoy an MMO, some are more competitive than others. PVP ranks, dueling Tournaments, PVE leaderboards, trifecta runs, achievement hunting, housing competitions, wealth accumulation, you name it, there is somebody that makes it their main focus, and if winning is possible, that is how they define it.

You acknowledge that he can define winning however he wants, then state that everyone else's definition is different than his. That is quite the contradiction.

His definition maybe overly broad, but yours is perhaps overly narrow. You view things in black and white, I and many others view it as a spectrum. This game is on the spectrum, because time and gold can give you an advantage in many areas of this game and both can be bought with cash. ESO is certainly on the P2W spectrum, perhaps not very high on it, but its on it.

If you want to define P2W, you have to define the W, and in an MMO, that definition wont be the same for everyone.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Reverb wrote: »

I don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all, I think all rational people understand this isn’t pay to win. There is not a single thing in the crown store that gives a gameplay advantage that isn’t also available in-game.

What a lovely way to argue. If you don't agree with me, you are not rational. Seen about 4 people use the same tactic in this thread.

Tandor

This current exchange sounds very like the old argument about the player who manages to fit in an hour per day at weekends versus the player who spends 8 hours per day all week on the game. It's all about time, and convenience items save time but don't confer any competitive advantage.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Of course it is.

Jim Sterling has a take on Pay to Win that stuck with me.
Customization, Skins and such is the main gameplaypart for a lot of players. So if getting skins is your goal in a game and there are skins that are only available in a cash shop, the game is per definition pay to win.

I holeheartedly agree with this. Winning doesnt always mean getting more powerful in terms of killing stuff.

Totally false. Wearing the skin of your choice is not winning. It simply means the game caters well to your preferred playstyle, but it doesn't confer you with any advantage over another player who doesn't wear that skin and that is very much at the heart of any commonly accepted definition of Pay to Win.

Allright, then riddle me this.
If my definition of winning would be to own every mount in the game, how would I "win" without "pay" ?
As for the definition. I strongly disagree with that. Cosmetics are definitely pay to win, if theyre deliberately way cooler than the ones you can get by playing the game.
Remember, Combat is by no means the most important part of an mmorpg for many people.

You can define winning however you want, but it isn't how everyone else defines winning in the context of Pay to Win. You're fulfilling your ambition to own every mount, but that isn't winning the game in any generally accepted sense.

Pay to Win is about being able to buy something that is only available in the cash shop that gives you a competitive advantage over a player who only uses things that are available through playing the game. Owning every mount in the game may well fulfil a player's most important purpose in playing the game but it would not give that player any competitive advantage whatsoever, and therefore having to buy some of them in the cash shop doesn't constitute Pay to Win.

Now, if those cash shop mounts came with enhanced stats over the ones in the game, and those enhanced stats gave you a competitive advantage over other players who didn't buy those mounts, then that would constitute Pay to Win.

Not sure you see it, but you are doing the same thing he is doing from the opposite end of the spectrum. This is an MMO. There are lots of ways you can play and enjoy an MMO, some are more competitive than others. PVP ranks, dueling Tournaments, PVE leaderboards, trifecta runs, achievement hunting, housing competitions, wealth accumulation, you name it, there is somebody that makes it their main focus, and if winning is possible, that is how they define it.

You acknowledge that he can define winning however he wants, then state that everyone else's definition is different than his. That is quite the contradiction.

His definition maybe overly broad, but yours is perhaps overly narrow. You view things in black and white, I and many others view it as a spectrum. This game is on the spectrum, because time and gold can give you an advantage in many areas of this game and both can be bought with cash. ESO is certainly on the P2W spectrum, perhaps not very high on it, but its on it.

If you want to define P2W, you have to define the W, and in an MMO, that definition wont be the same for everyone.

No, I'm accepting that he's free to define things as he sees them, whilst pointing out that that doesn't mean his definition will necessarily be considered the norm by most people. I believe that his definition is not widely supported across the genre, and this thread is another demonstration of that. There have been many such threads before and as I recall they have all come to the same consensus, namely that ESO is not P2W and that those claiming it to be so often have a skewed understanding of what constitutes P2W.

Kwoung

Tandor wrote: »

This current exchange sounds very like the old argument about the player who manages to fit in an hour per day at weekends versus the player who spends 8 hours per day all week on the game. It's all about time, and convenience items save time but don't confer any competitive advantage.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Of course it is.

Jim Sterling has a take on Pay to Win that stuck with me.
Customization, Skins and such is the main gameplaypart for a lot of players. So if getting skins is your goal in a game and there are skins that are only available in a cash shop, the game is per definition pay to win.

I holeheartedly agree with this. Winning doesnt always mean getting more powerful in terms of killing stuff.

Totally false. Wearing the skin of your choice is not winning. It simply means the game caters well to your preferred playstyle, but it doesn't confer you with any advantage over another player who doesn't wear that skin and that is very much at the heart of any commonly accepted definition of Pay to Win.

Allright, then riddle me this.
If my definition of winning would be to own every mount in the game, how would I "win" without "pay" ?
As for the definition. I strongly disagree with that. Cosmetics are definitely pay to win, if theyre deliberately way cooler than the ones you can get by playing the game.
Remember, Combat is by no means the most important part of an mmorpg for many people.

You can define winning however you want, but it isn't how everyone else defines winning in the context of Pay to Win. You're fulfilling your ambition to own every mount, but that isn't winning the game in any generally accepted sense.

Pay to Win is about being able to buy something that is only available in the cash shop that gives you a competitive advantage over a player who only uses things that are available through playing the game. Owning every mount in the game may well fulfil a player's most important purpose in playing the game but it would not give that player any competitive advantage whatsoever, and therefore having to buy some of them in the cash shop doesn't constitute Pay to Win.

Now, if those cash shop mounts came with enhanced stats over the ones in the game, and those enhanced stats gave you a competitive advantage over other players who didn't buy those mounts, then that would constitute Pay to Win.

Not sure you see it, but you are doing the same thing he is doing from the opposite end of the spectrum. This is an MMO. There are lots of ways you can play and enjoy an MMO, some are more competitive than others. PVP ranks, dueling Tournaments, PVE leaderboards, trifecta runs, achievement hunting, housing competitions, wealth accumulation, you name it, there is somebody that makes it their main focus, and if winning is possible, that is how they define it.

You acknowledge that he can define winning however he wants, then state that everyone else's definition is different than his. That is quite the contradiction.

His definition maybe overly broad, but yours is perhaps overly narrow. You view things in black and white, I and many others view it as a spectrum. This game is on the spectrum, because time and gold can give you an advantage in many areas of this game and both can be bought with cash. ESO is certainly on the P2W spectrum, perhaps not very high on it, but its on it.

If you want to define P2W, you have to define the W, and in an MMO, that definition wont be the same for everyone.

No, I'm accepting that he's free to define things as he sees them, whilst pointing out that that doesn't mean his definition will necessarily be considered the norm by most people. I believe that his definition is not widely supported across the genre, and this thread is another demonstration of that. There have been many such threads before and as I recall they have all come to the same consensus, namely that ESO is not P2W and that those claiming it to be so often have a skewed understanding of what constitutes P2W.

Actually, I (also?) feel what a player defines as "winning" is immaterial in the sense of a PTW conversation. Players can decide whatever they want to be a win. However, in the context of PTW, only the systems designed into the game as a competitive feature you can win/lose, fall under the PTW umbrella. As I mentioned before, it is pretty easy to figure out which is which, because any competitive feature of the game that PTW could affect, has a public leaderboard attached to it. You could say you won because you got every achievement in the game as well, but ZOS doesn't show that info to other players or have a leaderboard for it (to my knowledge), so it falls outside of PTW, even if some of those achievements were only available in the crown store.

Raideen

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Winning in a social game has a different meaning as I explained to other posters above.

Just want to point out, that it is impossible to win in a social game. If it is social, it is social... if you can win, by definition it is a competition. If it is a competition, there is scoring and a clear means in which someone can achieve a "win", generally a leaderboard of some type in most games. The leaderboards in ESO cover Alliance War, Trials, Arenas and Battlegrounds... that's it, there are no other ways to win. These are also very clear, you achieved a score of X by completing activity Y, putting you above other players rankings. If the game doesn't rank it, you can't win it... by purchasing items or otherwise, sorry.

There are plenty of ways to "win" in a social game. Being social and being competitive are not mutually exclusive.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/591253/100-000-000-gold-housing-competition-pc-na-pc-eu#latest

Kwoung

Raideen wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Winning in a social game has a different meaning as I explained to other posters above.

Just want to point out, that it is impossible to win in a social game. If it is social, it is social... if you can win, by definition it is a competition. If it is a competition, there is scoring and a clear means in which someone can achieve a "win", generally a leaderboard of some type in most games. The leaderboards in ESO cover Alliance War, Trials, Arenas and Battlegrounds... that's it, there are no other ways to win. These are also very clear, you achieved a score of X by completing activity Y, putting you above other players rankings. If the game doesn't rank it, you can't win it... by purchasing items or otherwise, sorry.

There are plenty of ways to "win" in a social game. Being social and being competitive are not mutually exclusive.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/591253/100-000-000-gold-housing-competition-pc-na-pc-eu#latest

Your link is to a player generated event, which is not a core feature of the game, so nothing that happened in that event could be considered PTW. If the players hosting and judging that event, decided that the winners had to have crown homes and crown furniture to win, well that is on them... but has zero to do with the game itself and how it functions. See my post directly above yours for clarification. ZOS has control of their game, they don't have control over every random idea someone comes up with to have fun in the game... including player made competitions. At best, you could blame the guy hosting the event for making a PTW event, but that is not on ZOS and doesn't make ESO a PTW game.

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Winning in a social game has a different meaning as I explained to other posters above.

Just want to point out, that it is impossible to win in a social game. If it is social, it is social... if you can win, by definition it is a competition. If it is a competition, there is scoring and a clear means in which someone can achieve a "win", generally a leaderboard of some type in most games. The leaderboards in ESO cover Alliance War, Trials, Arenas and Battlegrounds... that's it, there are no other ways to win. These are also very clear, you achieved a score of X by completing activity Y, putting you above other players rankings. If the game doesn't rank it, you can't win it... by purchasing items or otherwise, sorry.

There are plenty of ways to "win" in a social game. Being social and being competitive are not mutually exclusive.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/591253/100-000-000-gold-housing-competition-pc-na-pc-eu#latest

Your link is to a player generated event, which is not a core feature of the game, so nothing that happened in that event could be considered PTW. If the players hosting and judging that event, decided that the winners had to have crown homes and crown furniture to win, well that is on them... but has zero to do with the game itself and how it functions. See my post directly above yours for clarification. ZOS has control of their game, they don't have control over every random idea someone comes up with to have fun in the game... including player made competitions. At best, you could blame the guy hosting the event for making a PTW event, but that is not on ZOS and doesn't make ESO a PTW game.

I disagree it's only leaderboard content but I do agree with you that out of game contests or player made contests have no bearing on p2w.

I do think achievements count tho personally as it's a core gameplay thing

Kwoung

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Winning in a social game has a different meaning as I explained to other posters above.

Just want to point out, that it is impossible to win in a social game. If it is social, it is social... if you can win, by definition it is a competition. If it is a competition, there is scoring and a clear means in which someone can achieve a "win", generally a leaderboard of some type in most games. The leaderboards in ESO cover Alliance War, Trials, Arenas and Battlegrounds... that's it, there are no other ways to win. These are also very clear, you achieved a score of X by completing activity Y, putting you above other players rankings. If the game doesn't rank it, you can't win it... by purchasing items or otherwise, sorry.

There are plenty of ways to "win" in a social game. Being social and being competitive are not mutually exclusive.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/591253/100-000-000-gold-housing-competition-pc-na-pc-eu#latest

Your link is to a player generated event, which is not a core feature of the game, so nothing that happened in that event could be considered PTW. If the players hosting and judging that event, decided that the winners had to have crown homes and crown furniture to win, well that is on them... but has zero to do with the game itself and how it functions. See my post directly above yours for clarification. ZOS has control of their game, they don't have control over every random idea someone comes up with to have fun in the game... including player made competitions. At best, you could blame the guy hosting the event for making a PTW event, but that is not on ZOS and doesn't make ESO a PTW game.

I disagree it's only leaderboard content but I do agree with you that out of game contests or player made contests have no bearing on p2w.

I do think achievements count tho personally as it's a core gameplay thing

I simply used achievements as an example, because you cannot see other peoples achievements or points. So aside from the multiple screenshots it would take to even prove what you have earned, it would be pretty difficult to claim it as a Win over another player, I see that (and many other things in game) as more of a personal goal to achieve, of which I have a great many myself I am still working on. Funny thing, I have achieved many of those goals already and basically "won" ESO by my own standard at the time... but I unfortunately keep coming up with new goals, so I still don't have that final "win".

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Winning in a social game has a different meaning as I explained to other posters above.

Just want to point out, that it is impossible to win in a social game. If it is social, it is social... if you can win, by definition it is a competition. If it is a competition, there is scoring and a clear means in which someone can achieve a "win", generally a leaderboard of some type in most games. The leaderboards in ESO cover Alliance War, Trials, Arenas and Battlegrounds... that's it, there are no other ways to win. These are also very clear, you achieved a score of X by completing activity Y, putting you above other players rankings. If the game doesn't rank it, you can't win it... by purchasing items or otherwise, sorry.

There are plenty of ways to "win" in a social game. Being social and being competitive are not mutually exclusive.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/591253/100-000-000-gold-housing-competition-pc-na-pc-eu#latest

Your link is to a player generated event, which is not a core feature of the game, so nothing that happened in that event could be considered PTW. If the players hosting and judging that event, decided that the winners had to have crown homes and crown furniture to win, well that is on them... but has zero to do with the game itself and how it functions. See my post directly above yours for clarification. ZOS has control of their game, they don't have control over every random idea someone comes up with to have fun in the game... including player made competitions. At best, you could blame the guy hosting the event for making a PTW event, but that is not on ZOS and doesn't make ESO a PTW game.

I disagree it's only leaderboard content but I do agree with you that out of game contests or player made contests have no bearing on p2w.

I do think achievements count tho personally as it's a core gameplay thing

I simply used achievements as an example, because you cannot see other peoples achievements or points. So aside from the multiple screenshots it would take to even prove what you have earned, it would be pretty difficult to claim it as a Win over another player, I see that (and many other things in game) as more of a personal goal to achieve, of which I have a great many myself I am still working on. Funny thing, I have achieved many of those goals already and basically "won" ESO by my own standard at the time... but I unfortunately keep coming up with new goals, so I still don't have that final "win".

I mean they give you skins and titles so everyone can see you have some of the achievements. So I don't think it's meant to be purely self focused like say fashion. YMMV of course but if they were to say sell all the achievements for say Scalecaller Peak in the store, I'd personally find that p2w and distasteful.

Raideen

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Winning in a social game has a different meaning as I explained to other posters above.

Just want to point out, that it is impossible to win in a social game. If it is social, it is social... if you can win, by definition it is a competition. If it is a competition, there is scoring and a clear means in which someone can achieve a "win", generally a leaderboard of some type in most games. The leaderboards in ESO cover Alliance War, Trials, Arenas and Battlegrounds... that's it, there are no other ways to win. These are also very clear, you achieved a score of X by completing activity Y, putting you above other players rankings. If the game doesn't rank it, you can't win it... by purchasing items or otherwise, sorry.

There are plenty of ways to "win" in a social game. Being social and being competitive are not mutually exclusive.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/591253/100-000-000-gold-housing-competition-pc-na-pc-eu#latest

Your link is to a player generated event, which is not a core feature of the game, so nothing that happened in that event could be considered PTW. If the players hosting and judging that event, decided that the winners had to have crown homes and crown furniture to win, well that is on them... but has zero to do with the game itself and how it functions. See my post directly above yours for clarification. ZOS has control of their game, they don't have control over every random idea someone comes up with to have fun in the game... including player made competitions. At best, you could blame the guy hosting the event for making a PTW event, but that is not on ZOS and doesn't make ESO a PTW game.

Ok...but earlier you suggested....well let me just quote you

Kwoung wrote: »

as for the safe exchange of crowns, there are numerous places that will literally guarantee the transaction, my guild hosts its own and we too guarantee the transaction between our members. I am not here to argue about crown exchanges or their rates though. I am simply stating there are secure methods for which to exchange gold for crowns, and it is a supported feature of the game, regardless of whether ZOS hosts a direct exchange themselves or not.

So you believe that the game can not be "pay to win" because of crown gifting where a 3rd party source that takes place outside of the game makes the crown/gold exhange? But a 3rd party contest being held for the game by ZOS approved sponsors "Official Partners" does not count towards the argument?

Do you not think that this line of thought is not a bit hypocritical? I am asking this as an honest question.

Kwoung

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Winning in a social game has a different meaning as I explained to other posters above.

Just want to point out, that it is impossible to win in a social game. If it is social, it is social... if you can win, by definition it is a competition. If it is a competition, there is scoring and a clear means in which someone can achieve a "win", generally a leaderboard of some type in most games. The leaderboards in ESO cover Alliance War, Trials, Arenas and Battlegrounds... that's it, there are no other ways to win. These are also very clear, you achieved a score of X by completing activity Y, putting you above other players rankings. If the game doesn't rank it, you can't win it... by purchasing items or otherwise, sorry.

There are plenty of ways to "win" in a social game. Being social and being competitive are not mutually exclusive.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/591253/100-000-000-gold-housing-competition-pc-na-pc-eu#latest

Your link is to a player generated event, which is not a core feature of the game, so nothing that happened in that event could be considered PTW. If the players hosting and judging that event, decided that the winners had to have crown homes and crown furniture to win, well that is on them... but has zero to do with the game itself and how it functions. See my post directly above yours for clarification. ZOS has control of their game, they don't have control over every random idea someone comes up with to have fun in the game... including player made competitions. At best, you could blame the guy hosting the event for making a PTW event, but that is not on ZOS and doesn't make ESO a PTW game.

I disagree it's only leaderboard content but I do agree with you that out of game contests or player made contests have no bearing on p2w.

I do think achievements count tho personally as it's a core gameplay thing

I simply used achievements as an example, because you cannot see other peoples achievements or points. So aside from the multiple screenshots it would take to even prove what you have earned, it would be pretty difficult to claim it as a Win over another player, I see that (and many other things in game) as more of a personal goal to achieve, of which I have a great many myself I am still working on. Funny thing, I have achieved many of those goals already and basically "won" ESO by my own standard at the time... but I unfortunately keep coming up with new goals, so I still don't have that final "win".

I mean they give you skins and titles so everyone can see you have some of the achievements. So I don't think it's meant to be purely self focused like say fashion. YMMV of course but if they were to say sell all the achievements for say Scalecaller Peak in the store, I'd personally find that p2w and distasteful.

While I (and most probably) would not like that either, I am not sure it would actually fall under PTW, as it really doesn't offer an advantage over another player. It would however demine the act of earning it, which would not be a good thing for quite a lot of entirely different reasons.

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Winning in a social game has a different meaning as I explained to other posters above.

Just want to point out, that it is impossible to win in a social game. If it is social, it is social... if you can win, by definition it is a competition. If it is a competition, there is scoring and a clear means in which someone can achieve a "win", generally a leaderboard of some type in most games. The leaderboards in ESO cover Alliance War, Trials, Arenas and Battlegrounds... that's it, there are no other ways to win. These are also very clear, you achieved a score of X by completing activity Y, putting you above other players rankings. If the game doesn't rank it, you can't win it... by purchasing items or otherwise, sorry.

There are plenty of ways to "win" in a social game. Being social and being competitive are not mutually exclusive.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/591253/100-000-000-gold-housing-competition-pc-na-pc-eu#latest

Your link is to a player generated event, which is not a core feature of the game, so nothing that happened in that event could be considered PTW. If the players hosting and judging that event, decided that the winners had to have crown homes and crown furniture to win, well that is on them... but has zero to do with the game itself and how it functions. See my post directly above yours for clarification. ZOS has control of their game, they don't have control over every random idea someone comes up with to have fun in the game... including player made competitions. At best, you could blame the guy hosting the event for making a PTW event, but that is not on ZOS and doesn't make ESO a PTW game.

I disagree it's only leaderboard content but I do agree with you that out of game contests or player made contests have no bearing on p2w.

I do think achievements count tho personally as it's a core gameplay thing

I simply used achievements as an example, because you cannot see other peoples achievements or points. So aside from the multiple screenshots it would take to even prove what you have earned, it would be pretty difficult to claim it as a Win over another player, I see that (and many other things in game) as more of a personal goal to achieve, of which I have a great many myself I am still working on. Funny thing, I have achieved many of those goals already and basically "won" ESO by my own standard at the time... but I unfortunately keep coming up with new goals, so I still don't have that final "win".

I mean they give you skins and titles so everyone can see you have some of the achievements. So I don't think it's meant to be purely self focused like say fashion. YMMV of course but if they were to say sell all the achievements for say Scalecaller Peak in the store, I'd personally find that p2w and distasteful.

While I (and most probably) would not like that either, I am not sure it would actually fall under PTW, as it really doesn't offer an advantage over another player. It would however demine the act of earning it, which would not be a good thing for quite a lot of entirely different reasons.

It does though because the purpose of it is to show those items off. That's the gameplay purpose of them, and not just a player invented thing but an official gameplay function.

To me the difference between like "softer" competitive things or not is when it's an official part of the game, rather than some random player's wish fulfillment. So a housing contest by Zenimax might be a p2w contest but it wouldn't make the game p2w. Because housing isn't something that has the intended gameplay function of competition rather it be direct or indirect. But achievements would be because they have an indirect competitive function built-in the game.

Pixiepumpkin

lots of people are not understanding that pay to win means pay money for advantage, but that advantage can also give the player better chances at the best loot. so paying to win also means pay to loot. combat is not a requirment for pay to win

in mmorpgs peple win when they get the best loot and in this game the best loot comes from the crown store and that costs real money, lots of it

spartaxoxo

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

lots of people are not understanding that pay to win means pay money for advantage, but that advantage can also give the player better chances at the best loot. so paying to win also means pay to loot. combat is not a requirment for pay to win

in mmorpgs peple win when they get the best loot and in this game the best loot comes from the crown store and that costs real money, lots of it

Cash shop items are not loot. You don't do any gameplay to earn them. Loot is rewards for playing.

Pixiepumpkin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

lots of people are not understanding that pay to win means pay money for advantage, but that advantage can also give the player better chances at the best loot. so paying to win also means pay to loot. combat is not a requirment for pay to win

in mmorpgs peple win when they get the best loot and in this game the best loot comes from the crown store and that costs real money, lots of it

Cash shop items are not loot. You don't do any gameplay to earn them. Loot is rewards for playing.

but you cant get most crown store or gamble crate items in game, only in store. so if you want a nice house it cost a lot of real money, if you want a nice mount, it cost a lot of real money, if you want a nice outfit, it cost a lot of real money

people been playing mmorpgs for a long time and those old games set standards for what it means to play an mmorpg. i did not know whne I started eso that all the cool stuff was locked behind real money.

they show cool things on the videos for the game like the new video they made but most of the cool stuff is not really avaialbe in game, it has to be through cash store. that seems to me like false advertising because it does not say anywhere that all the cool things you see in videos or even in game mostly come through cash shop or gamble crates.

its pay to win to me. if you want to win by having cool stuff to show off you have to pay for it, you cant get it in game

Kwoung

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

lots of people are not understanding that pay to win means pay money for advantage, but that advantage can also give the player better chances at the best loot. so paying to win also means pay to loot. combat is not a requirment for pay to win

in mmorpgs peple win when they get the best loot and in this game the best loot comes from the crown store and that costs real money, lots of it

Cash shop items are not loot. You don't do any gameplay to earn them. Loot is rewards for playing.

but you cant get most crown store or gamble crate items in game, only in store. so if you want a nice house it cost a lot of real money, if you want a nice mount, it cost a lot of real money, if you want a nice outfit, it cost a lot of real money

people been playing mmorpgs for a long time and those old games set standards for what it means to play an mmorpg. i did not know whne I started eso that all the cool stuff was locked behind real money.

they show cool things on the videos for the game like the new video they made but most of the cool stuff is not really avaialbe in game, it has to be through cash store. that seems to me like false advertising because it does not say anywhere that all the cool things you see in videos or even in game mostly come through cash shop or gamble crates.

its pay to win to me. if you want to win by having cool stuff to show off you have to pay for it, you cant get it in game

I think you are using the terms Showing off and Winning to mean the same thing, but they aren't. You don't win by showing off, you are simply showing off and haven't won anything.

Edit: What happens when you show off (around me):
1. If you are my friend, I congratulate you on getting that cool item, maybe give you a bit of crap about it.
2. If you are not my friend, I could get jealous of you, but this generally doesn't happen, since I care less what other people have, I only care about what I earned. Me being jealous if that did happen, doesn't constitute a win for you however, see below...
3. You are really annoying about showing off and rubbing it in everyone's face... I simply write you off a narcissist and feel sorry for you.

Then there is the case in which I simply saw someone go by with a super cool (IMHO) look, mount, outfit... in which case I shoot them a tell and ask about it. That however, is simply a complement, and also doesn't constitute a win, except for me maybe, if you tell me what it is and how I can earn it.

spartaxoxo

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

but you cant get most crown store or gamble crate items in game, only in store.

Yes. Because they're not loot. Loot is the stuff your earn from gameplay.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

so if you want a nice house it cost a lot of real money, if you want a nice mount, it cost a lot of real money, if you want a nice outfit, it cost a lot of real money

Untrue. There are many nice houses available with coin and also additional houses given out for gameplay. There are nice mounts that earnable. They have an extensive and nice outfits system that you primarily earn from gameplay too.

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

lots of people are not understanding that pay to win means pay money for advantage, but that advantage can also give the player better chances at the best loot. so paying to win also means pay to loot. combat is not a requirment for pay to win

in mmorpgs peple win when they get the best loot and in this game the best loot comes from the crown store and that costs real money, lots of it

Cash shop items are not loot. You don't do any gameplay to earn them. Loot is rewards for playing.

but you cant get most crown store or gamble crate items in game, only in store. so if you want a nice house it cost a lot of real money, if you want a nice mount, it cost a lot of real money, if you want a nice outfit, it cost a lot of real money

people been playing mmorpgs for a long time and those old games set standards for what it means to play an mmorpg. i did not know whne I started eso that all the cool stuff was locked behind real money.

they show cool things on the videos for the game like the new video they made but most of the cool stuff is not really avaialbe in game, it has to be through cash store. that seems to me like false advertising because it does not say anywhere that all the cool things you see in videos or even in game mostly come through cash shop or gamble crates.

its pay to win to me. if you want to win by having cool stuff to show off you have to pay for it, you cant get it in game

I think you are using the terms Showing off and Winning to mean the same thing, but they aren't. You don't win by showing off, you are simply showing off and haven't won anything.

Winning, to me, is defined by what the game itself wants you to do with an item to compete with another player. Whether it's socially, economically, or through direct gameplay. If the game itself puts you in competition with another player rather than your fantasy, it would be winning.

So achievements and guild trader bids would also count, but having a prettier outfit wouldn't as the cash shop and outfit systems aren't meant to be a trophy like the stuff you get from achievements.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

I don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all, I think all rational people understand this isn’t pay to win. There is not a single thing in the crown store that gives a gameplay advantage that isn’t also available in-game.

The ayelid well. People using it to always start Battlegrounds with ult and able to requeue immediately. Someone else has to go farm it which can significantly increase wait times or more commonly just start the match at a disadvantage. I only recently learned it was being used that way by someone asking for everyone to start in the same ult state.

I don't know the item or BGs, but what you describe sounds like Pay for Convenience, as the item is available in the game and if it's that essential for BGs then there's no reason why players can't farm it beforehand.

The ayelid well is only available in the cash shop, and replenishes all your resources after an extremely short channel, including your ultimate. It's vastly superior to trying to build up before requeuing the normal way, as instantly requeuing makes it more likely you'll get into another BGs quickly. This is why a lot of people simply opt to build what they can while waiting for queue to pop then going in as is instead of farming ult and then queuing.

The antiquity you're thinking of only produces a blue light, it doesn't give you anything for combat.

The well you speak of is still not P2W as it does not make a player character more powerful than it can be from what is obtainable in-game. It is merely paid for convenience. I am not suggesting you are saying otherwise. Just commenting on the item's use.

In general I agree with you. For Battlegrounds, I think it's probably a little p2w. If you start with ult and your enemy doesn't, that's a pretty big advantage.

I think they could probably fix the only small aspects that are p2w by making the skills only able to be purchased at 50+ and making everyone start in the same ultimate state in BGs, personally.

A player who charges their ult by attacking NPCs has the same as one who charged their ult via the well. So there is no P2W by definition.

That is what you spoke of in what I quoted. Not sure where you are trying to go but it is not relevant to what I quoted or my reply.

Kwoung

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

lots of people are not understanding that pay to win means pay money for advantage, but that advantage can also give the player better chances at the best loot. so paying to win also means pay to loot. combat is not a requirment for pay to win

in mmorpgs peple win when they get the best loot and in this game the best loot comes from the crown store and that costs real money, lots of it

Cash shop items are not loot. You don't do any gameplay to earn them. Loot is rewards for playing.

but you cant get most crown store or gamble crate items in game, only in store. so if you want a nice house it cost a lot of real money, if you want a nice mount, it cost a lot of real money, if you want a nice outfit, it cost a lot of real money

people been playing mmorpgs for a long time and those old games set standards for what it means to play an mmorpg. i did not know whne I started eso that all the cool stuff was locked behind real money.

they show cool things on the videos for the game like the new video they made but most of the cool stuff is not really avaialbe in game, it has to be through cash store. that seems to me like false advertising because it does not say anywhere that all the cool things you see in videos or even in game mostly come through cash shop or gamble crates.

its pay to win to me. if you want to win by having cool stuff to show off you have to pay for it, you cant get it in game

I think you are using the terms Showing off and Winning to mean the same thing, but they aren't. You don't win by showing off, you are simply showing off and haven't won anything.

Winning, to me, is defined by what the game itself wants you to do with an item to compete with another player. Whether it's socially, economically, or through direct gameplay. If the game itself puts you in competition with another player rather than your fantasy, it would be winning.

So achievements and guild trader bids would also count, but having a prettier outfit wouldn't as the cash shop and outfit systems aren't meant to be a trophy like the stuff you get from achievements.

See, that's were we kinda disagree. I don't feel, nor have I ever, that I am in a competition with other players, or the game itself for that matter, to earn achievements, titles or any of those sorts of things, they are nothing more than visual fluff. I feel the game has simply put them there to create goals for me, so I have something to work towards. Otherwise, it would simply be a sandbox game, of which I would tire of in short order and find another game to play. You or that other guy getting an achievement, that literally (tens) of thousands have already achieved, really isn't anything special, its just something to do to keep me busy, playing, and hopefully (from a ZOS point of view) spending my money in the crown store.