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• https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/684716
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• https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/684716
Unpopular opinion: ESO is NOT pay-to-win
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spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.1 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on 21 November 2021 12:110 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all, I think all rational people understand this isn’t pay to win. There is not a single thing in the crown store that gives a gameplay advantage that isn’t also available in-game.
The ayelid well. People using it to always start Battlegrounds with ult and able to requeue immediately. Someone else has to go farm it which can significantly increase wait times or more commonly just start the match at a disadvantage. I only recently learned it was being used that way by someone asking for everyone to start in the same ult state.
I don't know the item or BGs, but what you describe sounds like Pay for Convenience, as the item is available in the game and if it's that essential for BGs then there's no reason why players can't farm it beforehand.
The ayelid well is only available in the cash shop, and replenishes all your resources after an extremely short channel, including your ultimate. It's vastly superior to trying to build up before requeuing the normal way, as instantly requeuing makes it more likely you'll get into another BGs quickly. This is why a lot of people simply opt to build what they can while waiting for queue to pop then going in as is instead of farming ult and then queuing.
The antiquity you're thinking of only produces a blue light, it doesn't give you anything for combat.
there are ayelid wells all over the place.... some are close to wayshrines.Edited by jedtb16_ESO on 21 November 2021 12:090 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all, I think all rational people understand this isn’t pay to win. There is not a single thing in the crown store that gives a gameplay advantage that isn’t also available in-game.
The ayelid well. People using it to always start Battlegrounds with ult and able to requeue immediately. Someone else has to go farm it which can significantly increase wait times or more commonly just start the match at a disadvantage. I only recently learned it was being used that way by someone asking for everyone to start in the same ult state.
I don't know the item or BGs, but what you describe sounds like Pay for Convenience, as the item is available in the game and if it's that essential for BGs then there's no reason why players can't farm it beforehand.
The ayelid well is only available in the cash shop, and replenishes all your resources after an extremely short channel, including your ultimate. It's vastly superior to trying to build up before requeuing the normal way, as instantly requeuing makes it more likely you'll get into another BGs quickly. This is why a lot of people simply opt to build what they can while waiting for queue to pop then going in as is instead of farming ult and then queuing.
The antiquity you're thinking of only produces a blue light, it doesn't give you anything for combat.
Thanks for the attempted clarification, for my part I can clarify that I wasn't thinking of any antiquity but was simply responding to how you described it in your earlier post. I say "attempted" because I think you're actually talking about the Aetherial Well but referred to the Ayelid Well. Hence any confusion.Edited by Tandor on 21 November 2021 12:240 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.Edited by spartaxoxo on 21 November 2021 13:082 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It seems people have pretty loose ideas over what pay to win is.
Mount skins and costumes are p2w now?
Housing contests that are run independently from zos? (Just as an aside, one of my guilds run a housing contest that is made specifically for non eso+ members.)
Apparently anything that costs money, including xpacs, is pay to win. How is this game supposed to exist? Should all of zos’s employees work for free? A mysterious rich benefactor is supposed to giving out games for free?
I own both the warden and necro classes, why have I not been crowned emperor? Why have I not been given the “god slayer” title? I own that Aleyid well, why can I not get anything but last place (usually) in bgs? I have all of the chapters (in CE versions no less), why is my character not at 3600 cp? Why am I not doing the ultimate in dps?
Should I be putting in a ticket to zos demanding all these things I “paid” for?2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all, I think all rational people understand this isn’t pay to win. There is not a single thing in the crown store that gives a gameplay advantage that isn’t also available in-game.
The ayelid well. People using it to always start Battlegrounds with ult and able to requeue immediately. Someone else has to go farm it which can significantly increase wait times or more commonly just start the match at a disadvantage. I only recently learned it was being used that way by someone asking for everyone to start in the same ult state.
I don't know the item or BGs, but what you describe sounds like Pay for Convenience, as the item is available in the game and if it's that essential for BGs then there's no reason why players can't farm it beforehand.
The ayelid well is only available in the cash shop, and replenishes all your resources after an extremely short channel, including your ultimate. It's vastly superior to trying to build up before requeuing the normal way, as instantly requeuing makes it more likely you'll get into another BGs quickly. This is why a lot of people simply opt to build what they can while waiting for queue to pop then going in as is instead of farming ult and then queuing.
The antiquity you're thinking of only produces a blue light, it doesn't give you anything for combat.
there are ayelid wells all over the place.... some are close to wayshrines.
Those don't recharge your resources, they give you a 10 minute health buff.spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all, I think all rational people understand this isn’t pay to win. There is not a single thing in the crown store that gives a gameplay advantage that isn’t also available in-game.
The ayelid well. People using it to always start Battlegrounds with ult and able to requeue immediately. Someone else has to go farm it which can significantly increase wait times or more commonly just start the match at a disadvantage. I only recently learned it was being used that way by someone asking for everyone to start in the same ult state.
I don't know the item or BGs, but what you describe sounds like Pay for Convenience, as the item is available in the game and if it's that essential for BGs then there's no reason why players can't farm it beforehand.
The ayelid well is only available in the cash shop, and replenishes all your resources after an extremely short channel, including your ultimate. It's vastly superior to trying to build up before requeuing the normal way, as instantly requeuing makes it more likely you'll get into another BGs quickly. This is why a lot of people simply opt to build what they can while waiting for queue to pop then going in as is instead of farming ult and then queuing.
The antiquity you're thinking of only produces a blue light, it doesn't give you anything for combat.
Thanks for the attempted clarification, for my part I can clarify that I wasn't thinking of any antiquity but was simply responding to how you described it in your earlier post. I say "attempted" because I think you're actually talking about the Aetherial Well but referred to the Ayelid Well. Hence any confusion.
Ah, yes. That is the correct name, thanks.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »ShawnLaRock wrote: »?
I haven’t heard anyone say otherwise. Curious as to why this is relevant…
S.
only ones I heard say it's p2w are ones who think cosmetics in crown store are p2w...
Fashion Scrolls Online is endgame!
Fashion Per Second is very important to some people.
_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
Yup, you are right. An off-topic comment related to that is that ZOS should have made all of those convenience purchases valid for Level 50 characters, not sub-50 characters, including allocating CP.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on 21 November 2021 16:512 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.
But we're literally talking about a situation that applies to the "AND" people buying power to gain an advantage over under level 50s. Why would I need to restate the entire premise of the conversation?
The advantage is a lot faster acquisition of skills and having all that skills at once also gives them a combat advantage over the ones still working on them.
Skins? Who said anything about skins? Why do you feel the need to tell me that skins aren't combat advantages? What???
I am talking buying skills from the cash shop to gain an advantage in under level 50 Cyrodiil and BGs. You can aquire them at a much faster rate which even in the definition you link qualifies as p2w. It is NOT strictly only when the advantage is cash shop exclusive. Significantly faster rates count too, when it gives an advantage. And in the case of Under 50 PvP it does.
They should maybe introduce a restriction that the skills and shards must be over level 50 to buy.Edited by spartaxoxo on 21 November 2021 17:260 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Regarding the idea of ESO being "pay to win"ShawnLaRock wrote: »?
I haven’t heard anyone say otherwise. Curious as to why this is relevant…Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You must be new here. LOL
I'm old here (well... I'm old everywhere, but I've been playing ESO since a month or so after PC release) and this is one of the LEAST common "re-threads".
Possibly because ESO is pay to win in only the tiniest sense, and practically speaking for most folks the "extra pay bits" don't make much practical difference.
I will never forget trying to create a character in DnD (online). At ever turn, with just about every choice - race, equipment, clothing, whatever - there were zillions of notifications that you can get THIS extra choice/thing by paying a small fee. I lasted about an hour. Before it drove me completely buggy and I never went back.
All that being said, I would say to @ShawnLaRock that in truth, EVERYTHING is potentially relevant in the forums.
That's the beauty of itTenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.
But we're literally talking about a situation that applies to the "AND" people buying power to gain an advantage over under level 50s. Why would I need to restate the entire premise of the conversation?
The advantage is a lot faster acquisition of skills and having all that skills at once also gives them a combat advantage over the ones still working on them.
Skins? Who said anything about skins? Why do you feel the need to tell me that skins aren't combat advantages? What???
I am talking buying skills from the cash shop to gain an advantage in under level 50 Cyrodiil and BGs. You can aquire them at a much faster rate which even in the definition you link qualifies as p2w. It is NOT strictly only when the advantage is cash shop exclusive. Significantly faster rates count too, when it gives an advantage. And in the case of Under 50 PvP it does.
They should maybe introduce a restriction that the skills and shards must be over level 50 to buy.
You seem preoccupied with the idea that its a gear race and you are evaluating at the wrong data point, i.e the measurement is against max level and not against some arbitrary player level at some level of incompleteness. Ofc someone who chooses to invest in the shop to speed up skyshard collection will get more skyshards, but that's not buy to win, its buy to catch up to what is considered max level
Pay to win classically means if you DONT use the cash shop then you will be at a disadvantage with no recourse - therefore forcing people to use the cash shop. This is why Pay to win is hated so much and why the industry evolved pay to catch up in games with horizontal progress.
Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on 21 November 2021 18:081 -
Alemtuzumab✭✭✭A majority of people who call eso pay to win def describe pay for convenience when i ask them to describe what they mean. And thats okey because its def pay for convenience and I think thats an Okey bussiness model this day in age (def still a little scumy however could be alot worse, but i dont mean alot worse to defend it being JUST okey I do want the game to prosper)
Oh boy, you really pulled on a social-economic Thread here thats way to massive for a gamingforum to untangle.
Lets just say, the game should prosper even without any kind of cash shop if the worlds economy wasnt so screwed up. I think in ten years, everything will be a lot different than it is today. The time of the investors and CEOs gaining 1000s of percents in winnings will soon be over.
I don't understand how the game should prosper if the economy is prosperous. Using hyperbole in a discussion is not helpful at all. If the arguments are too massive then try to sum it up.
FYI MMORPG is NOT as profitable as you'd imagine. Have a look at these charts:
If the investors want to make more money, mobile market is way more profitable for them to invest in. The truth is, MMORPG is extremely expensive to maintain and develop, and the cash shop is more of a necessasity than an average player might've imagined.1 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭Think of it this way:
A target game content type like say cyrodil under 50 has a player base of say 50k with enough Skyshards to create good builds (number doesn't really matter). Out of that 50k X % bought sky shards. Again it doesn't matter. Now lets look at new players aiming to join cyrodill under 50.- New Player 1 buys skyshards to speed up skill collection enough they can build a viable build and compete with the above.
- New Player 2 decides to take the longer route and gather skyshards then join later
The net effect is Player 1 gets to his chosen level at his chosen speed, as does player 2. Player 1 and 2 are not racing each other. Player 1 has not Paid to Win, he isn't winning anything, he just paid for a convenience (skipping past content, i.e exploration)Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on 21 November 2021 18:170 -
amapola76✭✭✭✭✭
✭Allright, then riddle me this.
If my definition of winning would be to own every mount in the game, how would I "win" without "pay" ?
I could say that my definition of peanut butter is that it contains lentils, but that doesn't mean that Jiffy is cheating me if they sell peanut butter made from peanuts.
Words have meanings, and those meanings evolve over time but are largely dependent on what most people understand them to mean. The commonly accepted understanding of the definition of "play to win" does not include cosmetics, housing, etc., and never has.
2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.
But we're literally talking about a situation that applies to the "AND" people buying power to gain an advantage over under level 50s. Why would I need to restate the entire premise of the conversation?
The advantage is a lot faster acquisition of skills and having all that skills at once also gives them a combat advantage over the ones still working on them.
Skins? Who said anything about skins? Why do you feel the need to tell me that skins aren't combat advantages? What???
I am talking buying skills from the cash shop to gain an advantage in under level 50 Cyrodiil and BGs. You can aquire them at a much faster rate which even in the definition you link qualifies as p2w. It is NOT strictly only when the advantage is cash shop exclusive. Significantly faster rates count too, when it gives an advantage. And in the case of Under 50 PvP it does.
They should maybe introduce a restriction that the skills and shards must be over level 50 to buy.
You seem preoccupied with the idea that its a gear race and you are evaluating at the wrong data point, i.e the measurement is against max level and not against some arbitrary player level at some level of incompleteness. Ofc someone who chooses to invest in the shop to speed up skyshard collection will get more skyshards, but that's not buy to win, its buy to catch up to what is considered max level
Pay to win classically means if you DONT use the cash shop then you will be at a disadvantage with no recourse - therefore forcing people to use the cash shop. This is why Pay to win is hated so much and why the industry evolved pay to catch up in games with horizontal progress.
I am not evaluating at the wrong data point. Max level has no bearing on Under Level 50 BG and Cyro, which have their own competitions. I already noted earlier that it's easy to forget that bracket is p2w because you level out of it quickly. So it's low impact. That those skill points are a mere convenience item for high levels has absolutely no bearing on a competition that is strictly for people that are not high level.
It also change that buying power from the cash shop gives you a distinct advantage over others in a competitive setting, which is by definition P2W.
Under level 50s BGs/Cyro is pretty straightforward a P2W campaign/activity.Edited by spartaxoxo on 21 November 2021 18:252 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.
But we're literally talking about a situation that applies to the "AND" people buying power to gain an advantage over under level 50s. Why would I need to restate the entire premise of the conversation?
The advantage is a lot faster acquisition of skills and having all that skills at once also gives them a combat advantage over the ones still working on them.
Skins? Who said anything about skins? Why do you feel the need to tell me that skins aren't combat advantages? What???
I am talking buying skills from the cash shop to gain an advantage in under level 50 Cyrodiil and BGs. You can aquire them at a much faster rate which even in the definition you link qualifies as p2w. It is NOT strictly only when the advantage is cash shop exclusive. Significantly faster rates count too, when it gives an advantage. And in the case of Under 50 PvP it does.
They should maybe introduce a restriction that the skills and shards must be over level 50 to buy.
You seem preoccupied with the idea that its a gear race and you are evaluating at the wrong data point, i.e the measurement is against max level and not against some arbitrary player level at some level of incompleteness. Ofc someone who chooses to invest in the shop to speed up skyshard collection will get more skyshards, but that's not buy to win, its buy to catch up to what is considered max level
Pay to win classically means if you DONT use the cash shop then you will be at a disadvantage with no recourse - therefore forcing people to use the cash shop. This is why Pay to win is hated so much and why the industry evolved pay to catch up in games with horizontal progress.
I am not evaluating at the wrong data point. Max level has no bearing on Under Level 50 BG and Cyro, which have their own competitions. I already noted earlier that it's easy to forget that bracket is p2w because you level out of it quickly. So it's low impact.
It doesn't change though that buying power from the cash shop gives you a distinct advantage over others in a competitive setting.
ready my post above, you are, because it gives ZERO advantage, unless you happen to be racing someone to a certain build.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.
But we're literally talking about a situation that applies to the "AND" people buying power to gain an advantage over under level 50s. Why would I need to restate the entire premise of the conversation?
The advantage is a lot faster acquisition of skills and having all that skills at once also gives them a combat advantage over the ones still working on them.
Skins? Who said anything about skins? Why do you feel the need to tell me that skins aren't combat advantages? What???
I am talking buying skills from the cash shop to gain an advantage in under level 50 Cyrodiil and BGs. You can aquire them at a much faster rate which even in the definition you link qualifies as p2w. It is NOT strictly only when the advantage is cash shop exclusive. Significantly faster rates count too, when it gives an advantage. And in the case of Under 50 PvP it does.
They should maybe introduce a restriction that the skills and shards must be over level 50 to buy.
You seem preoccupied with the idea that its a gear race and you are evaluating at the wrong data point, i.e the measurement is against max level and not against some arbitrary player level at some level of incompleteness. Ofc someone who chooses to invest in the shop to speed up skyshard collection will get more skyshards, but that's not buy to win, its buy to catch up to what is considered max level
Pay to win classically means if you DONT use the cash shop then you will be at a disadvantage with no recourse - therefore forcing people to use the cash shop. This is why Pay to win is hated so much and why the industry evolved pay to catch up in games with horizontal progress.
I am not evaluating at the wrong data point. Max level has no bearing on Under Level 50 BG and Cyro, which have their own competitions. I already noted earlier that it's easy to forget that bracket is p2w because you level out of it quickly. So it's low impact.
It doesn't change though that buying power from the cash shop gives you a distinct advantage over others in a competitive setting.
ready my post above, you are, because it gives ZERO advantage, unless you happen to be racing someone to a certain build.
It is literally power being directly bought. As I said before, getting the skills yourself puts you a significant disadvantage for the campaign and there is also a power gap between people who have skills and those who don't because they are still working on them because that method takes so much longer. This problem caused by the time element is literally listed in the definition you linked.Edited by spartaxoxo on 21 November 2021 18:422 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.
But we're literally talking about a situation that applies to the "AND" people buying power to gain an advantage over under level 50s. Why would I need to restate the entire premise of the conversation?
The advantage is a lot faster acquisition of skills and having all that skills at once also gives them a combat advantage over the ones still working on them.
Skins? Who said anything about skins? Why do you feel the need to tell me that skins aren't combat advantages? What???
I am talking buying skills from the cash shop to gain an advantage in under level 50 Cyrodiil and BGs. You can aquire them at a much faster rate which even in the definition you link qualifies as p2w. It is NOT strictly only when the advantage is cash shop exclusive. Significantly faster rates count too, when it gives an advantage. And in the case of Under 50 PvP it does.
They should maybe introduce a restriction that the skills and shards must be over level 50 to buy.
You seem preoccupied with the idea that its a gear race and you are evaluating at the wrong data point, i.e the measurement is against max level and not against some arbitrary player level at some level of incompleteness. Ofc someone who chooses to invest in the shop to speed up skyshard collection will get more skyshards, but that's not buy to win, its buy to catch up to what is considered max level
Pay to win classically means if you DONT use the cash shop then you will be at a disadvantage with no recourse - therefore forcing people to use the cash shop. This is why Pay to win is hated so much and why the industry evolved pay to catch up in games with horizontal progress.
I am not evaluating at the wrong data point. Max level has no bearing on Under Level 50 BG and Cyro, which have their own competitions. I already noted earlier that it's easy to forget that bracket is p2w because you level out of it quickly. So it's low impact.
It doesn't change though that buying power from the cash shop gives you a distinct advantage over others in a competitive setting.
ready my post above, you are, because it gives ZERO advantage, unless you happen to be racing someone to a certain build.
It is literally power being directly bought. As I said before, getting the skills yourself puts you a significant disadvantage for the campaign and there is also a power gap between people who have skills and those who don't because they are still working on them because that method takes so much longer. The time element is literally listed in the definition you linked.
your obsessed with power at a given moment in time. Again:
Player 1 buys 100 skyshards (or whatever)
Player 2 doesnt.
Player 1 just got the skyshards a bit faster and can join PVP a bit earlier. Player 2 doesn't want to convenience boost, he will join later at the typical point in time where people who get skyshards from exploration typically enter.
Player 1 DID NOT GET AN ADVANTAGE he just chose a different path.
Think as well if player 2 enjoys exploring for Skyshards, he actually sees buying shards as a disadvantage, he prefers going slower.
Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on 21 November 2021 18:490 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.
But we're literally talking about a situation that applies to the "AND" people buying power to gain an advantage over under level 50s. Why would I need to restate the entire premise of the conversation?
The advantage is a lot faster acquisition of skills and having all that skills at once also gives them a combat advantage over the ones still working on them.
Skins? Who said anything about skins? Why do you feel the need to tell me that skins aren't combat advantages? What???
I am talking buying skills from the cash shop to gain an advantage in under level 50 Cyrodiil and BGs. You can aquire them at a much faster rate which even in the definition you link qualifies as p2w. It is NOT strictly only when the advantage is cash shop exclusive. Significantly faster rates count too, when it gives an advantage. And in the case of Under 50 PvP it does.
They should maybe introduce a restriction that the skills and shards must be over level 50 to buy.
You seem preoccupied with the idea that its a gear race and you are evaluating at the wrong data point, i.e the measurement is against max level and not against some arbitrary player level at some level of incompleteness. Ofc someone who chooses to invest in the shop to speed up skyshard collection will get more skyshards, but that's not buy to win, its buy to catch up to what is considered max level
Pay to win classically means if you DONT use the cash shop then you will be at a disadvantage with no recourse - therefore forcing people to use the cash shop. This is why Pay to win is hated so much and why the industry evolved pay to catch up in games with horizontal progress.
I am not evaluating at the wrong data point. Max level has no bearing on Under Level 50 BG and Cyro, which have their own competitions. I already noted earlier that it's easy to forget that bracket is p2w because you level out of it quickly. So it's low impact.
It doesn't change though that buying power from the cash shop gives you a distinct advantage over others in a competitive setting.
ready my post above, you are, because it gives ZERO advantage, unless you happen to be racing someone to a certain build.
It is literally power being directly bought. As I said before, getting the skills yourself puts you a significant disadvantage for the campaign and there is also a power gap between people who have skills and those who don't because they are still working on them because that method takes so much longer. The time element is literally listed in the definition you linked.
your obsessed with power at a given moment in time. Again:
Player 1 buys 100 skyshards (or whatever)
Player 2 doesnt.
Player 1 just got the skyshards a bit faster and can join PVP a bit earlier. Player 2 doesn't want to convenience boost, he will join later at the typical point in time where people who get skyshards from exploration typically enter.
Player 1 DID NOT GET AN ADVANTAGE he just chose a different path.
[Think as well if player 2 enjoys exploring for skyshards, he actually sees buying shards as a disadvantage.
He DID get an advantage. Having it all at once gives him a fighting advantage against enemies still working on their skills while he already has is.
And over the person who won't come until he has all his skills, while the other person is PvE'ing, the buyer is making progress towards leaderboards in his campaign. Which of them is taking more keeps, getting more defense ticks, etc? The guy actually in Cyrodiil or the dude closing Psijic tears in Bangkorai?
The faster resource gathering literally gives him an advantage in a competitive setting.Edited by spartaxoxo on 21 November 2021 18:532 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.
But we're literally talking about a situation that applies to the "AND" people buying power to gain an advantage over under level 50s. Why would I need to restate the entire premise of the conversation?
The advantage is a lot faster acquisition of skills and having all that skills at once also gives them a combat advantage over the ones still working on them.
Skins? Who said anything about skins? Why do you feel the need to tell me that skins aren't combat advantages? What???
I am talking buying skills from the cash shop to gain an advantage in under level 50 Cyrodiil and BGs. You can aquire them at a much faster rate which even in the definition you link qualifies as p2w. It is NOT strictly only when the advantage is cash shop exclusive. Significantly faster rates count too, when it gives an advantage. And in the case of Under 50 PvP it does.
They should maybe introduce a restriction that the skills and shards must be over level 50 to buy.
You seem preoccupied with the idea that its a gear race and you are evaluating at the wrong data point, i.e the measurement is against max level and not against some arbitrary player level at some level of incompleteness. Ofc someone who chooses to invest in the shop to speed up skyshard collection will get more skyshards, but that's not buy to win, its buy to catch up to what is considered max level
Pay to win classically means if you DONT use the cash shop then you will be at a disadvantage with no recourse - therefore forcing people to use the cash shop. This is why Pay to win is hated so much and why the industry evolved pay to catch up in games with horizontal progress.
I am not evaluating at the wrong data point. Max level has no bearing on Under Level 50 BG and Cyro, which have their own competitions. I already noted earlier that it's easy to forget that bracket is p2w because you level out of it quickly. So it's low impact.
It doesn't change though that buying power from the cash shop gives you a distinct advantage over others in a competitive setting.
ready my post above, you are, because it gives ZERO advantage, unless you happen to be racing someone to a certain build.
It is literally power being directly bought. As I said before, getting the skills yourself puts you a significant disadvantage for the campaign and there is also a power gap between people who have skills and those who don't because they are still working on them because that method takes so much longer. The time element is literally listed in the definition you linked.
your obsessed with power at a given moment in time. Again:
Player 1 buys 100 skyshards (or whatever)
Player 2 doesnt.
Player 1 just got the skyshards a bit faster and can join PVP a bit earlier. Player 2 doesn't want to convenience boost, he will join later at the typical point in time where people who get skyshards from exploration typically enter.
Player 1 DID NOT GET AN ADVANTAGE he just chose a different path.
[Think as well if player 2 enjoys exploring for skyshards, he actually sees buying shards as a disadvantage.
He DID get an advantage. Having it all at once gives him a fighting advantage against enemies still working on their skills while he already has is.
And over the person who won't come until he has all his skills, while the other person is PvE'ing, the buyer is making progress towards leaderboards in his campaign.
The faster resource gathering literally gives him an advantage in a competitive setting.
You didn't get an advantage, he chose to join earlier at a disadvantage. He lost nothing, he was at a competitive disadvantage against the player base wether you bought shards or not. If that player had chosen to join the battle at the typical skill point level then he would also have the same skill points as you, he just chose to take a different route and enter with less skills than is optimal.
Equally that fictitious player with less shards could equally join later when he has the skill shards he wants - so you have zero advantage over him when he does join. He just joins later, you went for convenience and joined sooner.Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on 21 November 2021 19:030 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.
But we're literally talking about a situation that applies to the "AND" people buying power to gain an advantage over under level 50s. Why would I need to restate the entire premise of the conversation?
The advantage is a lot faster acquisition of skills and having all that skills at once also gives them a combat advantage over the ones still working on them.
Skins? Who said anything about skins? Why do you feel the need to tell me that skins aren't combat advantages? What???
I am talking buying skills from the cash shop to gain an advantage in under level 50 Cyrodiil and BGs. You can aquire them at a much faster rate which even in the definition you link qualifies as p2w. It is NOT strictly only when the advantage is cash shop exclusive. Significantly faster rates count too, when it gives an advantage. And in the case of Under 50 PvP it does.
They should maybe introduce a restriction that the skills and shards must be over level 50 to buy.
You seem preoccupied with the idea that its a gear race and you are evaluating at the wrong data point, i.e the measurement is against max level and not against some arbitrary player level at some level of incompleteness. Ofc someone who chooses to invest in the shop to speed up skyshard collection will get more skyshards, but that's not buy to win, its buy to catch up to what is considered max level
Pay to win classically means if you DONT use the cash shop then you will be at a disadvantage with no recourse - therefore forcing people to use the cash shop. This is why Pay to win is hated so much and why the industry evolved pay to catch up in games with horizontal progress.
I am not evaluating at the wrong data point. Max level has no bearing on Under Level 50 BG and Cyro, which have their own competitions. I already noted earlier that it's easy to forget that bracket is p2w because you level out of it quickly. So it's low impact.
It doesn't change though that buying power from the cash shop gives you a distinct advantage over others in a competitive setting.
ready my post above, you are, because it gives ZERO advantage, unless you happen to be racing someone to a certain build.
It is literally power being directly bought. As I said before, getting the skills yourself puts you a significant disadvantage for the campaign and there is also a power gap between people who have skills and those who don't because they are still working on them because that method takes so much longer. The time element is literally listed in the definition you linked.
your obsessed with power at a given moment in time. Again:
Player 1 buys 100 skyshards (or whatever)
Player 2 doesnt.
Player 1 just got the skyshards a bit faster and can join PVP a bit earlier. Player 2 doesn't want to convenience boost, he will join later at the typical point in time where people who get skyshards from exploration typically enter.
Player 1 DID NOT GET AN ADVANTAGE he just chose a different path.
[Think as well if player 2 enjoys exploring for skyshards, he actually sees buying shards as a disadvantage.
He DID get an advantage. Having it all at once gives him a fighting advantage against enemies still working on their skills while he already has is.
And over the person who won't come until he has all his skills, while the other person is PvE'ing, the buyer is making progress towards leaderboards in his campaign.
The faster resource gathering literally gives him an advantage in a competitive setting.
You didn't get an advantage, he chose to join earlier at a disadvantage. He lost nothing, he was at a competitive disadvantage against the player base wether you bought shards or not. If that player had chosen to join the battle at the typical skill point level then he would also have the same skill points as you, he just chose to take a different route and enter with less skills than is optimal, you chose convenience. Same eventual result.
Free player did choose to join at the typical skill point level. The player who purchased the points and skills has extra skills they would not otherwise have. They would have entered the battle later, same as the guy who took his time.
Again, because they acquired those resources significantly faster by buying them with cash which is literally in the defintion you linked. Why are you rejecting your own definiton?Edited by spartaxoxo on 21 November 2021 19:072 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.
But we're literally talking about a situation that applies to the "AND" people buying power to gain an advantage over under level 50s. Why would I need to restate the entire premise of the conversation?
The advantage is a lot faster acquisition of skills and having all that skills at once also gives them a combat advantage over the ones still working on them.
Skins? Who said anything about skins? Why do you feel the need to tell me that skins aren't combat advantages? What???
I am talking buying skills from the cash shop to gain an advantage in under level 50 Cyrodiil and BGs. You can aquire them at a much faster rate which even in the definition you link qualifies as p2w. It is NOT strictly only when the advantage is cash shop exclusive. Significantly faster rates count too, when it gives an advantage. And in the case of Under 50 PvP it does.
They should maybe introduce a restriction that the skills and shards must be over level 50 to buy.
You seem preoccupied with the idea that its a gear race and you are evaluating at the wrong data point, i.e the measurement is against max level and not against some arbitrary player level at some level of incompleteness. Ofc someone who chooses to invest in the shop to speed up skyshard collection will get more skyshards, but that's not buy to win, its buy to catch up to what is considered max level
Pay to win classically means if you DONT use the cash shop then you will be at a disadvantage with no recourse - therefore forcing people to use the cash shop. This is why Pay to win is hated so much and why the industry evolved pay to catch up in games with horizontal progress.
I am not evaluating at the wrong data point. Max level has no bearing on Under Level 50 BG and Cyro, which have their own competitions. I already noted earlier that it's easy to forget that bracket is p2w because you level out of it quickly. So it's low impact.
It doesn't change though that buying power from the cash shop gives you a distinct advantage over others in a competitive setting.
ready my post above, you are, because it gives ZERO advantage, unless you happen to be racing someone to a certain build.
It is literally power being directly bought. As I said before, getting the skills yourself puts you a significant disadvantage for the campaign and there is also a power gap between people who have skills and those who don't because they are still working on them because that method takes so much longer. The time element is literally listed in the definition you linked.
your obsessed with power at a given moment in time. Again:
Player 1 buys 100 skyshards (or whatever)
Player 2 doesnt.
Player 1 just got the skyshards a bit faster and can join PVP a bit earlier. Player 2 doesn't want to convenience boost, he will join later at the typical point in time where people who get skyshards from exploration typically enter.
Player 1 DID NOT GET AN ADVANTAGE he just chose a different path.
[Think as well if player 2 enjoys exploring for skyshards, he actually sees buying shards as a disadvantage.
He DID get an advantage. Having it all at once gives him a fighting advantage against enemies still working on their skills while he already has is.
And over the person who won't come until he has all his skills, while the other person is PvE'ing, the buyer is making progress towards leaderboards in his campaign.
The faster resource gathering literally gives him an advantage in a competitive setting.
You didn't get an advantage, he chose to join earlier at a disadvantage. He lost nothing, he was at a competitive disadvantage against the player base wether you bought shards or not. If that player had chosen to join the battle at the typical skill point level then he would also have the same skill points as you, he just chose to take a different route and enter with less skills than is optimal, you chose convenience. Same eventual result.
He did choose to join at the typical skill point level. The player who purchased the points and skills has extra skills.
Player 1 is happy with the skills he collected otherwise he wouldn't join, player 2 is happy with the skills he bought. what's the problem again?Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on 21 November 2021 19:140 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.
But we're literally talking about a situation that applies to the "AND" people buying power to gain an advantage over under level 50s. Why would I need to restate the entire premise of the conversation?
The advantage is a lot faster acquisition of skills and having all that skills at once also gives them a combat advantage over the ones still working on them.
Skins? Who said anything about skins? Why do you feel the need to tell me that skins aren't combat advantages? What???
I am talking buying skills from the cash shop to gain an advantage in under level 50 Cyrodiil and BGs. You can aquire them at a much faster rate which even in the definition you link qualifies as p2w. It is NOT strictly only when the advantage is cash shop exclusive. Significantly faster rates count too, when it gives an advantage. And in the case of Under 50 PvP it does.
They should maybe introduce a restriction that the skills and shards must be over level 50 to buy.
You seem preoccupied with the idea that its a gear race and you are evaluating at the wrong data point, i.e the measurement is against max level and not against some arbitrary player level at some level of incompleteness. Ofc someone who chooses to invest in the shop to speed up skyshard collection will get more skyshards, but that's not buy to win, its buy to catch up to what is considered max level
Pay to win classically means if you DONT use the cash shop then you will be at a disadvantage with no recourse - therefore forcing people to use the cash shop. This is why Pay to win is hated so much and why the industry evolved pay to catch up in games with horizontal progress.
I am not evaluating at the wrong data point. Max level has no bearing on Under Level 50 BG and Cyro, which have their own competitions. I already noted earlier that it's easy to forget that bracket is p2w because you level out of it quickly. So it's low impact.
It doesn't change though that buying power from the cash shop gives you a distinct advantage over others in a competitive setting.
ready my post above, you are, because it gives ZERO advantage, unless you happen to be racing someone to a certain build.
It is literally power being directly bought. As I said before, getting the skills yourself puts you a significant disadvantage for the campaign and there is also a power gap between people who have skills and those who don't because they are still working on them because that method takes so much longer. The time element is literally listed in the definition you linked.
your obsessed with power at a given moment in time. Again:
Player 1 buys 100 skyshards (or whatever)
Player 2 doesnt.
Player 1 just got the skyshards a bit faster and can join PVP a bit earlier. Player 2 doesn't want to convenience boost, he will join later at the typical point in time where people who get skyshards from exploration typically enter.
Player 1 DID NOT GET AN ADVANTAGE he just chose a different path.
[Think as well if player 2 enjoys exploring for skyshards, he actually sees buying shards as a disadvantage.
He DID get an advantage. Having it all at once gives him a fighting advantage against enemies still working on their skills while he already has is.
And over the person who won't come until he has all his skills, while the other person is PvE'ing, the buyer is making progress towards leaderboards in his campaign.
The faster resource gathering literally gives him an advantage in a competitive setting.
You didn't get an advantage, he chose to join earlier at a disadvantage. He lost nothing, he was at a competitive disadvantage against the player base wether you bought shards or not. If that player had chosen to join the battle at the typical skill point level then he would also have the same skill points as you, he just chose to take a different route and enter with less skills than is optimal, you chose convenience. Same eventual result.
He did choose to join at the typical skill point level. The player who purchased the points and skills has extra skills.
he is happy with the skills he has otherwise he wouldn't join, your happy with the skills you have. what's the problem again?
What does happiness have to do with it? The measure of P2W isn't what are you satisfied by, if that was the case then fashion is p2w.
The measure is are you getting an advantage in a competitive setting either through an exclusive or by saving a significant amount of time? And the answer is yes, they are. His advantage over the guy who entered right away is more skills to choose from. His advantage over the guy who grinded first is more time taking keeps which means better odds of being on the leaderboard or getting emp or whatever. Those are advantages that he paid for by saving himself a grind, which is by definiton P2W even going by the narrow definition you linked.
The game overall isn't P2W because of this, because people spend barely any time in that competitive bracket. The real game is above level 50. It's literally just the equivalent of a junior league tournament. I am not saying it's high impact. It's low impact on the game itself.
But that doesn't change that under 50 BG and Cyro are P2W. It just doesn't. Those are their own separate competitions with clear win conditions and buying those skills gives you an advantage at that competition by saving you a significant amount of time. That's called P2W.3 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »3. well, it does contain skips, huge ones. Getting skyshards and guild progress on alts is classic p2w in sub 50 BGs, for example
Oh, hadn't thought of that one. Good point. Under 50s BG (or Cyro for that matter) are definitely more influenced by P2W than any other aspect of the game. You level it out of it so fast that it's easy to forget.
its funny how people misinterpret pay to win. pay to win has always meant just that, you pay for an advantage you would not otherwise have got in game. NOT pay to catch up, which is about convenience. Pay to win appears in games like BDO. Getting some sky shards earlier is not pay to win, it doesn't gave you an advantage over other players, it allows you to catch up and simply saves you getting those exact same shard by running about a map - mostly taken up by alts.
to take from urban dictionary
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It literally says at a faster rate in your link. Doing it the legitimate way makes it easy to quickly outlevel the under 50s BGs, and the grind reduction is massive. This results in people who didn't buy all those skills at a competitive disadvantage to those who did. They pay to get a significant advantage in battle against other level 50s not paying. It's probably the easiest example of p2w in the game.
read the whole sentence again:
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
so first of all that's an AND in there, and 2) different skins are not better than each other. Finally, its not a race in ESO like other games. Most normal people don't see a problem with others getting skyshards a bit quicker for example.
But we're literally talking about a situation that applies to the "AND" people buying power to gain an advantage over under level 50s. Why would I need to restate the entire premise of the conversation?
The advantage is a lot faster acquisition of skills and having all that skills at once also gives them a combat advantage over the ones still working on them.
Skins? Who said anything about skins? Why do you feel the need to tell me that skins aren't combat advantages? What???
I am talking buying skills from the cash shop to gain an advantage in under level 50 Cyrodiil and BGs. You can aquire them at a much faster rate which even in the definition you link qualifies as p2w. It is NOT strictly only when the advantage is cash shop exclusive. Significantly faster rates count too, when it gives an advantage. And in the case of Under 50 PvP it does.
They should maybe introduce a restriction that the skills and shards must be over level 50 to buy.
You seem preoccupied with the idea that its a gear race and you are evaluating at the wrong data point, i.e the measurement is against max level and not against some arbitrary player level at some level of incompleteness. Ofc someone who chooses to invest in the shop to speed up skyshard collection will get more skyshards, but that's not buy to win, its buy to catch up to what is considered max level
Pay to win classically means if you DONT use the cash shop then you will be at a disadvantage with no recourse - therefore forcing people to use the cash shop. This is why Pay to win is hated so much and why the industry evolved pay to catch up in games with horizontal progress.
I am not evaluating at the wrong data point. Max level has no bearing on Under Level 50 BG and Cyro, which have their own competitions. I already noted earlier that it's easy to forget that bracket is p2w because you level out of it quickly. So it's low impact.
It doesn't change though that buying power from the cash shop gives you a distinct advantage over others in a competitive setting.
ready my post above, you are, because it gives ZERO advantage, unless you happen to be racing someone to a certain build.
It is literally power being directly bought. As I said before, getting the skills yourself puts you a significant disadvantage for the campaign and there is also a power gap between people who have skills and those who don't because they are still working on them because that method takes so much longer. The time element is literally listed in the definition you linked.
your obsessed with power at a given moment in time. Again:
Player 1 buys 100 skyshards (or whatever)
Player 2 doesnt.
Player 1 just got the skyshards a bit faster and can join PVP a bit earlier. Player 2 doesn't want to convenience boost, he will join later at the typical point in time where people who get skyshards from exploration typically enter.
Player 1 DID NOT GET AN ADVANTAGE he just chose a different path.
[Think as well if player 2 enjoys exploring for skyshards, he actually sees buying shards as a disadvantage.
He DID get an advantage. Having it all at once gives him a fighting advantage against enemies still working on their skills while he already has is.
And over the person who won't come until he has all his skills, while the other person is PvE'ing, the buyer is making progress towards leaderboards in his campaign.
The faster resource gathering literally gives him an advantage in a competitive setting.
You didn't get an advantage, he chose to join earlier at a disadvantage. He lost nothing, he was at a competitive disadvantage against the player base wether you bought shards or not. If that player had chosen to join the battle at the typical skill point level then he would also have the same skill points as you, he just chose to take a different route and enter with less skills than is optimal, you chose convenience. Same eventual result.
He did choose to join at the typical skill point level. The player who purchased the points and skills has extra skills.
he is happy with the skills he has otherwise he wouldn't join, your happy with the skills you have. what's the problem again?
What does happiness have to do with it? The measure of P2W isn't what are you satisfied by, if that was the case then fashion is p2w.
The measure is are you getting an advantage in a competitive setting either through an exclusive or by saving a significant amount of time? And the answer is yes, they are. His advantage over the guy who entered right away is more skills to choose from. His advantage over the guy who grinded first is more time taking keeps which means better odds of being on the leaderboard or getting emp or whatever. Those are advantages that he paid for by saving himself a grind, which is by definiton P2W even going by the narrow definition you linked.
The game overall isn't P2W because of this, because people spend barely any time in that competitive bracket. The real game is above level 50. It's literally just the equivalent of a junior league tournament. I am not saying it's high impact. It's low impact on the game itself.
But that doesn't change that under 50 BG and Cyro are P2W. It just doesn't. Those are their own separate competitions with clear win conditions and buying those skills gives you an advantage at that competition by saving you a significant amount of time. That's called P2W.
you don't get it, they went in with the same number of skills, they just started playing in there at different times, there is no competitive advantage. i.e Player 1 bought skills and started in August, Player 2 took longer and entered in September. They both have the same skills. And again, IT IS NOT A RACE in ESO.Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on 21 November 2021 19:190 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »And again, IT IS NOT A RACE in ESO
No. Instead leaderboards are determined by who got the most points in a given time frame. The person who had more time to get points has an advantage over the one who didn't. Very straightforward. If we both decided to participate in the same campaign at the beginning starting our journey at the same time.
I start taking keeps on day 1. You spend the first 3 days getting all the resources I bought. On day 7, which of us is most likely to get a leaderboard reward? The person who got the 3 day headstart sieging keeps.Edited by spartaxoxo on 21 November 2021 19:251 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »And again, IT IS NOT A RACE in ESO
No. Instead leaderboards are determined by who got the most points in a given time frame. The person who had more time to get points has an advantage over the one who didn't.
Which has nothing to do with players that have not joined yet because they don't have enough skill points and will join later when they do.Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on 21 November 2021 19:251 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »And again, IT IS NOT A RACE in ESO
No. Instead leaderboards are determined by who got the most points in a given time frame. The person who had more time to get points has an advantage over the one who didn't.
Which has nothing to do with players that have not joined yet because they don't have enough skill points and will join later when they do.
Read the edit.1 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »And again, IT IS NOT A RACE in ESO
No. Instead leaderboards are determined by who got the most points in a given time frame. The person who had more time to get points has an advantage over the one who didn't.
Which has nothing to do with players that have not joined yet because they don't have enough skill points and will join later when they do.
Read the edit.
Your back to it being race again between 2 fictitious player, when actually player 2 has already decided not to join until later. I give up lol, you see what you want.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »And again, IT IS NOT A RACE in ESO
No. Instead leaderboards are determined by who got the most points in a given time frame. The person who had more time to get points has an advantage over the one who didn't.
Which has nothing to do with players that have not joined yet because they don't have enough skill points and will join later when they do.
Read the edit.
Your back to it being race again between 2 fictitious player, when actually player 2 has already decided not to join until later. I give up lol, you see what you want.
Player 2 didn't decide to go in later. Player 2 HAS to go in later because he wants to be at even power level to Player 1. He could also just go in Day 1, but then he puts himself at a power disadvantage because he doesn't have those skills.
You do not evaluate P2W by someone not even trying to compete. You evaluate it when they are in competition.
Scenarios like this one is the reason why saving significant getting better resources is included in the definition.
edit:
Also it's not about making it a race. When you want to determine if timed saved is a competitive advantage or mere convenience you put both competitors at the same starting point, so that you are actually evaluating the time saved. "Time saved doesn't give you an advantage if you ignore the period of time that was saved" does not hold up as an evaluation on the impact of saving time. Once you start them at the same time, you then determine if the time saved was significant and if it gave an advantage. Buying those skills saves a significant amount of time. And having significantly more time to get points than the other person obviously gives you an advantage at gathering more points.Edited by spartaxoxo on 21 November 2021 20:072