Overland Content Feedback Thread

spartaxoxo

https://youtu.be/plQYxCXk5z0?si=bm3FIwgOj_03s8f4

By the way, here is the first boss from Necrom. I didn't do West Weald as I have not had the motivation to quest there yet but will want to hear the dialogue when I do. However, I finished Necrom a while back. I hopped on an alt to kill the first boss. This boss has an immunity phase so I can hear a snippet of dialogue. His combat lines are still interrupted. He still dies extremely fast. He still posed no challenge.

This is how all the bosses are, except the immunity phases might last a bit more so they can monologue.

TaSheen

/muttering

Must be nice....

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Is the incentive immersion or isn't it?

Immersion while questing is the main thing I want. But, the point of the questing system is to level alts. Why should casuals get to quest in a way that is both immersive and useful, but veteran players have to give up use for immersion? Why is casual players time worth more than mine? How is a casual player harmed because a vet player got the same experience points as them after 30 minutes of questing or whatever?

I am not just a casual. I like challenges, too and have done every group content in the game except veteran trials, because of the time required. And I love questing in overland just as it is.

Overland was made this way with One Tamriel. It was not so that casuals could enjoy themselves while veteran players couldn't... It was so players could play with their friends and explore Tamriel in any manner they chose, regardless of their level or alliance.

It is impossible to make any game everything for everyone, but everyone needs to be able to enjoy the story. If some players find that boring, that is unfortunate, but there is not a preference being given toward what is being called casual players.

spartaxoxo

TaSheen wrote: »

/muttering

Must be nice....

No, not really.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

I am not just a casual.

I am not saying that you are. But fundamentally, the argument that it would be unfair for vet players to get the same exp is one that devalues the vet player's time.

Everyone can't enjoy the story. That's why we asked for a fun and fair difficulty option.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

/muttering

Must be nice....

No, not really.

It's worse for all the players that no longer can finish the story arcs.

TaSheen

Uh. I had to look that up. Hmm. I might be a bit "overage" for finding that enjoyable or.... apt.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

/muttering

Must be nice....

No, not really.

It's worse for all the players that no longer can finish the story arcs.

Correct. As I said, what is going on now is not good for either group. They have not given us anything we asked for. They have not made my game better. They just made some other players games worse. That's what happens when they go the route of forced difficulty.

We warned them. But they have chosen their path.

spartaxoxo

TaSheen wrote: »

Uh. I had to look that up. Hmm. I might be a bit "overage" for finding that enjoyable or.... apt.

He's just a dumb DJ. His album cover and title are ridiculous and some of us now use it as self-deprecating humor.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

/muttering

Must be nice....

No, not really.

It's worse for all the players that no longer can finish the story arcs.

Correct. As I said, what is going on now is not good for either group. They have not given us anything we asked for. They have not made my game better. They just made some other players games worse. That's what happens when they go the route of forced difficulty.

We warned them. But they have chosen their path.

Finally something that we can agree on again. Too bad it had to be this situation.

BasP

SilverBride wrote: »

Is the incentive immersion or isn't it?

I can only speak for myself, but yeah, the increased immersion and more engaging combat would be enough for me. I do understand the views of others that would like to level at the same pace as players that would play on the normal difficulty though, and I don't think that such an "incentive" (if you can even call it that) would be too much to ask for.

I suppose the biggest issue is that ZOS, judging by an earlier quote in this thread, also thinks that they'd have to incentivize players to use a more difficult Overland. I can imagine that just being able to earn a similar amount of XP and gold per hour would not be enough of an incentive in their eyes. Because "players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time".

But if a small (and sensible) incentive such as increased XP already faces backlash in this thread, it will be hard to come up with real incentives that won't upset a portion of the players that have no interest in a more difficult Overland.

spartaxoxo

BasP wrote: »

I suppose the biggest issue is that ZOS, judging by an earlier quote in this thread, also thinks that they'd have to incentivize players to use a more difficult Overland. I can imagine that just being able to earn a similar amount of XP and gold per hour would not be enough of an incentive in their eyes. Because "players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time".

But if a small (and sensible) incentive such as increased XP already faces backlash in this thread, it will be hard to come up with real incentives that won't upset a portion of the players that have no interest in a more difficult Overland.

Yes. This is exactly why it doesn't feel worth it to advocate anymore.

I used to think the incentive problem was just getting ZOS to realize that most of us aren't looking for anything fancy. I figured they had it in their head they'd have to figure out how to give us mounts or some other typical vet reward, but didn't want to do that because quests are one and done. So, giving that type of reward for doing a quest vet style would mean some players would feel forced to do it on vet so they wouldn't permanently miss out.

That's what I always used to think the incentive problem was. So, I didn't talk about it often (although this is NOT the first time this has been brought up in this thread). It seemed very much doable to convince ZOS a skin or something like that wasn't necessary. (Edit: Because most of us have said we didn't need all that.) They could do something smaller like exp. But, now I realize it's also that they don't want to upset the portion of the playerbase that is so adamant against literally any kind of incentive that they'd even feel spurned by equal experience points.

I am not saying that ZOS felt that way because of this recent conversation. Because they said that years ago. Players are not responsible for balance. It is simply that I personally realize why they won't discuss a toggle now. And I finally understand that it was not ZOS that didn't understand what was being asked when they rejected a toggle all those years ago. I simply had not understood their answer. They rejected a toggle because they would want to incentivize and they can't incentivize it without a segment of their playerbase getting upset. That's even the case with something as miniscule as just enough exp to offset the debuff.

Theist_VII

spartaxoxo wrote: »

https://youtu.be/plQYxCXk5z0?si=bm3FIwgOj_03s8f4

By the way, here is the first boss from Necrom. I didn't do West Weald as I have not had the motivation to quest there yet but will want to hear the dialogue when I do. However, I finished Necrom a while back. I hopped on an alt to kill the first boss. This boss has an immunity phase so I can hear a snippet of dialogue. His combat lines are still interrupted. He still dies extremely fast. He still posed no challenge.

This is how all the bosses are, except the immunity phases might last a bit more so they can monologue.

I almost just sprayed my drink everywhere. 😂

Overland/Quest bosses are such a joke. You hit 5 abilities and shredded it’s health bar. What people fail to realize is that it’s not skill that makes players bored to death, as you just demonstrated, you did nothing truly special.

You can purchase or craft sets that make bosses die in 5 hits. Without that immunity phase, it would have died in less than 10 seconds and it was a major boss from the main storyline.

How could any developer see that and say…

Elsonso

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I am not saying that ZOS felt that way because of this recent conversation. Because they said that years ago. Players are not responsible for balance. It is simply that I personally realize why they won't discuss a toggle now. And I finally understand that it was not ZOS that didn't understand what was being asked when they rejected a toggle all those years ago. I simply had not understood their answer. They rejected a toggle because they would want to incentivize and they can't incentivize it without a segment of their playerbase getting upset. That's even the case with something as miniscule as just enough exp to offset the debuff.

While I read in here that people might not like different rewards for different difficulties, I never got the impression that ZOS was hung up on that. The only comment I remember them making had to do with the fact that players would not play harder for the same reward. I never got the impression that was off the table, but I did get the impression it was more complicated than it sounds. I might be remembering wrong, and we can't go back and review the comment.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

Players said multiple times that the main thing they wanted was for Bosses to feel like the bad guy they were hyped up to be. That happened. No boss dies too fast or before they complete any dialogue now. So yes players got what they stated was the main thing they wanted for immersion in the story.

I'm sorry, but this is completely untrue.

disky

TaSheen wrote: »

/muttering

Must be nice....

Haha...our gift, our curse.

disky

I think one anecdote that bears telling, while we're still talking about final bosses, is from the recent "Venture Into Vvardenfell" event which rewarded the customized recall action. I had never completed Vvardenfell's zone story because I'm waiting for it to be fun. But I still wanted the recall, so what I decided to do was second screen the game. For my entire time playing, I barely looked at the screen and watched something on another screen instead. I have no idea what happened, I just blasted through everything I needed to in a couple of hours to get the achievement, claimed the recall and forgot about it. This way, I can still come back later when the game is actually enjoyable for me and experience the story in a way that feels satisfying.

This is what we're looking at as an experience. And it's fine if that's what you want, or if that's what you're capable of overcoming for whatever reason. But I hope this helps to illustrate exactly what those of us who lament this issue are dealing with. It's literally a second-screen experience.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Muizer

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what is turning me away.

• Being told that the MAIN things players wanted was harder boss fights for immersion. They got that.
• Now that they have that increased rewards are being brought up.
• Players stating that ZoS has done nothing to address overland difficulty when they made the boss changes and added Bastion Nymics that they stated specifically were introduded as one answer to overland difficulty.
• Players stating that ZoS has not communicated about this but there have been posts in this thread a few times stating their stand.
• Posts that state those of us that do not want overland changes, even those of us that still advocate for them anyway, are the reason ZoS has not done more. Particularly stating that those of us that do not think increased rewards are warranted for debuffed players is the reason.
• We are expected to be sympathetic of players wanting more difficulty, and for a large part players have been. But where is the empathy for those of us that aren't happy with the changes being made and don't want our game experience that we have enjoyed this way for 8 years to be taken out from under us?
• A lot of players can no longer succeed at the Story Boss fights. And many have turned away from even trying World Bosses and Public Dungeon group event Bosses now because of this change. Who is caring about us?

It seems to me you are blaming people posting here for what ZOS say they did in response, without looking at whether they actually addressed what was being asked for. With the odd exception (I dare say they're exceptions) they just haven't. Your entreaties are becoming like "please don't ask for X, because we know ZOS might implement Y in response".

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

I dont understand what exactly is turning you away ?

This is what is turning me away.

• Being told that the MAIN things players wanted was harder boss fights for immersion. They got that.
• Now that they have that increased rewards are being brought up.
• Players stating that ZoS has done nothing to address overland difficulty when they made the boss changes and added Bastion Nymics that they stated specifically were introduded as one answer to overland difficulty.
• Players stating that ZoS has not communicated about this but there have been posts in this thread a few times stating their stand.
• Posts that state those of us that do not want overland changes, even those of us that still advocate for them anyway, are the reason ZoS has not done more. Particularly stating that those of us that do not think increased rewards are warranted for debuffed players is the reason.
• We are expected to be sympathetic of players wanting more difficulty, and for a large part players have been. But where is the empathy for those of us that aren't happy with the changes being made and don't want our game experience that we have enjoyed this way for 8 years to be taken out from under us?
• A lot of players can no longer succeed at the Story Boss fights. And many have turned away from even trying World Bosses and Public Dungeon group event Bosses now because of this change. Who is caring about us?

As Muizer just said, you're responding to what ZOS did, not what people have been asking for, so I'll go down this list in response, since this is a very effective way to clarify things.

"Being told that the MAIN things players wanted was harder boss fights for immersion. They got that."

Incorrect, world bosses got amplified, but for myself how many times have I said the issue lies with the story and exploration? Buffing world bosses does nothing to fix the laughable quest bosses, see spartaxoxo's video of the boss getting all proud only to choke on his words from a single beam, and the zones themselves all feel the same because, since all enemies are forced to be 'players first zone' in terms of difficulty and complexity, there is no functional difference between the roads outside Wayrest and the heart of the Deadlands.

"Now that they have that increased rewards are being brought up."

Please elaborate on how already existing disparity in loot drops aren't an issue then. If a level 10 and a level 50 kill the same bear boss, they both get different amounts of exp, different level gear, and different tier materials. Is that an issue? If not then how would drops based on difficulty be any different? Do you even care what people around you get/wear/do, is that a thought that ever passes your mind while questing?

"Players stating that ZoS has done nothing to address overland difficulty when they made the boss changes and added Bastion Nymics that they stated specifically were introduded as one answer to overland difficulty."

How many times have I personally said "I don't want to be put in a corner and be told to be happy?" Buffing world bosses does nothing when I don't bother to visit the zone, and places like Bastion Nymic are just repeditive delves, again failing to address the issue that both I and others have said, we can't enjoy the story or the world, how does a delve that has a tedious entry fee address those pain points?

"Players stating that ZoS has not communicated about this but there have been posts in this thread a few times stating their stand."

Ooh, here's the fun one. Thanks to Icy's post we have a recent post from ZOS, so let's see how active they've been here.
Today [Icy] Moderation
Jan 16 [Icy] Moderation
June 2023 [Kevin] Saying something about the team having discussions regularly
June 2023 [Kevin] Sharing Rich's quote about the removal of silver/gold and the need for incentives
April 2023 [Kevin twice, Phoenix] Mentioning no changes to announce, still implying the team has discussions, plus some moderation
June 2023 [Icy] Moderation

Yeah, so. Lots of moderation, and then well over a year since the last existing post about something other than moderation. I'd like to imagine that if they gathered feedback from this thread, they'd be able to implement some of that feedback over the next year. So why, then, are their changes based around universally increasing the difficulty of world bosses, when many people are pointing out how underwhelming the story is when big bads need safety nets to even say their monologue, let alone live up to their own hype? Our feedback here doesn't feel heard, and ZOS hasn't made any sort of effort to communicate, to post messages here, have players respond, then respond to those replies. This time of silence has allowed the situation to fester, so they probably fear how toxic the situation would be, but the situation has only reached this point because of that very silence.

So yeah, 400+ days since their last non-moderation post really makes me feel heard.

"Posts that state those of us that do not want overland changes, even those of us that still advocate for them anyway, are the reason ZoS has not done more. Particularly stating that those of us that do not think increased rewards are warranted for debuffed players is the reason."

Please go back to my post detailing how rewards already work. Loot is ALREADY changed between players, and do you, as a casual quester, really care at all about what someone else gets? Really?

"We are expected to be sympathetic of players wanting more difficulty, and for a large part players have been. But where is the empathy for those of us that aren't happy with the changes being made and don't want our game experience that we have enjoyed this way for 8 years to be taken out from under us?"

We have been trying to get ZOS to listen, and my attempts to support creating veteran instances was a means of preventing EXACTLY THIS. Because with instances, players who are content with simple overland wouldn't have their content changed at all, and ZOS could freely modify the vet instance as much as they like, again, without impacting your ability to enjoy the game. But "Oh no, we can't have that, it'd divide the player base!" was the answer, so now we have to deal with compromise. Don't blame us for ZOS's half measures.

"A lot of players can no longer succeed at the Story Boss fights. And many have turned away from even trying World Bosses and Public Dungeon group event Bosses now because of this change. Who is caring about us?"

See above point, and my previous posts. Don't blame players for ZOS inability to effectively cater content to different groups of players. If dividing the player base through instances is such a taboo, then we'll have to deal with compromises, where everyone deals with the same degree of difficulty. We won't have instances, but instead the zones will be sub-divided in themselves to cater to the different groups. Isn't that a better ideal, so everyone is 'together'?

I jest, but seriously. If only ZOS had a way to cater content to players of different interest, where each group of players could have a version of that content tailored to their ideal way of enjoying the game. And if only this ability was well practiced, used before, and still actively used to this day to do exactly this. But alas, such a thing can't be used for overland, despite the fact that it already is, because that would divide the players, except for the fact that it already does...

TaSheen

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Uh. I had to look that up. Hmm. I might be a bit "overage" for finding that enjoyable or.... apt.

He's just a dumb DJ. His album cover and title are ridiculous and some of us now use it as self-deprecating humor.

Ah. See.... I very often miss that something is supposed to be humorous - I'm actually a pretty serious person (though yes, I do have a very well-developed sense of humor, it's just.... fairly outré) so when people are posting here I tend to think they're serious....

@CP5 - I gave you an awesome for that VERY cogent post. As a rebuttal, it's perfect. And it quite literally lays out the problem with ZOS's reactionary changes - to the bone.

I'm sad that I have to be done with the very content I enjoy most because it's now too difficult - and actually, because the story questing IS instanced. I usually can deal with story quests up to the bosses (since High Isle I haven't even attempted them); if the bosses weren't instanced I have good friends who would jump to help. At this point, can't be done.

As a comparison: I took 8 characters through the Vvardenfell quest line (hadn't ever done it before, not interested in dunmer, the tribunal, etc) for the reward of the Gold Coast Recall. I had no trouble with it at all, even the boss bits. That's now a very old DLC. High Isle.... the Ascendant Magus (I think that was his title - long while back now) took me at least 8 tries (maybe more) on ONE character, my oldest main with at the time well over 1k CP. I never went back to do that story line again, and I haven't touched the stories since (except for running a few of the initial quests in Necrom, which I just didn't find interesting - and then a friend told me how much trouble she had with the boss at the end.... so I abandoned the quest line).

Oh, it honestly goes back farther than that - killing the dragon boss in N Elsweyr was a slog of epic proportions, and the single most miserable gaming experience in my life of CRPGs since 1985. So I didn't even bother with Dragonhold.... I didn't need another horrible boss fight....

I do have other things to do, other interests in game. But this feels like to me the "Chapter-future". And that makes me sad. *shrug* I'm only one person....

disky

TaSheen wrote: »

I do have other things to do, other interests in game. But this feels like to me the "Chapter-future". And that makes me sad. *shrug* I'm only one person....

For what it's worth, I think everyone here agrees that it should not be.

Elsonso

Sadly, I think that the video posted above is better evidence that Arcanist will be nerfed than overland quest bosses are too easy.

SilverBride

Elsonso wrote: »

While I read in here that people might not like different rewards for different difficulties, I never got the impression that ZOS was hung up on that. The only comment I remember them making had to do with the fact that players would not play harder for the same reward. I never got the impression that was off the table, but I did get the impression it was more complicated than it sounds. I might be remembering wrong, and we can't go back and review the comment.

I believe this is what you are referring to. The rest of the transcript is under a spoiler tag (because it's long) in post #33 on Page 2 of this thread.

"Would it be an option just to give people the choice? It is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult. There is a TON of work and then as Lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you’re not going to get anything out of it why do it? The satisfaction's there sure but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time."

CP5

You and me both then TaSheen, I have years worth of content that I haven't touched because I don't want my first experience of the content to either be mind-numbingly dull, or second monitor content. It is bad for everyone if ZOS keeps doing this awkward dance, not really committing to anything, and all it will do is ruin the experience for more and more people.

TaSheen

CP5 wrote: »

You and me both then TaSheen, I have years worth of content that I haven't touched because I don't want my first experience of the content to either be mind-numbingly dull, or second monitor content. It is bad for everyone if ZOS keeps doing this awkward dance, not really committing to anything, and all it will do is ruin the experience for more and more people.

Sadly, agreed. Games aren't supposed to be this way.... I never had this kind of issues in either WoW or RIFT (those are a decade or more back now though).

spartaxoxo

Elsonso wrote: »

Sadly, I think that the video posted above is better evidence that Arcanist will be nerfed than overland quest bosses are too easy.

Just as easy on my sorc
https://youtu.be/lUvzkAXUyD0

And on my sneak thief night blade, which is in gear meant for lowering the detection radius. It's not even a combat character. Yeah, she got to use a few more skills. But at no point did I have to care about adds or worry about my health, and the boss didn't even make it to a second immunity phase from living so long. This boss was easily dispatched by all of my characters, even the weakest one not built for combat.

https://youtu.be/6nOEinB2dbs

CP5

I love those clips, especially the sorc one. Instantly downed when the invincibility fades. Also, the whole 'you did so much damage that you triggered two instances of the ally helping you' part was also funny.

SilverBride

The fact that the bosses are easy for some players doesn't mean that this is how most players find them. These bosses are so hard for many that they can't defeat them and complete the stories. Especially the ones from High Isle and beyond.

Knowing that some players still don't find them difficult enough, will these bosses now become so difficult that only the top players will ever be able to succeed in overland?

spartaxoxo

I think the story bosses are easy for most players, tbh. I think that's likely another factor in why they've tweaked the design a bit. A lot of people aren't questing for a challenge. They are questing because they find it a relaxing experience. I know that some people find it challenging. A new player, for example, may find that boss hard because they don't know how to activate a synergy. So, they may struggle to leave the invincibility phase. Someone with bad Internet might also struggle with the synergy thing.

That's the reason I had wanted options. But, clearly those don't work. So, all I can do at this point is show my problem and let the devs do as they will. They were always going to do that anyway. It's a shame but that's the path they are choosing.