Overland Content Feedback Thread

Elsonso

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SilverBride wrote: »

"With One Tamriel every zone is effectively set to CP 160 difficulty. This means that all mobs will have CP 160 equivalent strength in damage and resistance. For all players below CP 160, ESO will use the Battle Level system which intelligently scales the important stats of your character up to be able to compete with these enemies."

That is how it works for the current overland difficulty. A debuff would alter this to increase the difficulty for the player which is what the player using it is wanting to happen. More difficult fights are going to take longer. If a player doesn't want longer fights they shouldn't use a debuff.

If the slider went both ways, under buff to make things harder, as well as over buff to make things easier, I suspect that the majority of players that changed the slider would make the game easier. That said, out of all players, I suspect most would just leave it set where ZOS set it.

My biggest thought with respect to overland difficulty is simply that not enough players would use it to make the effort pay off.

disky

Elsonso wrote: »

My biggest thought with respect to overland difficulty is simply that not enough players would use it to make the effort pay off.

I think you might be surprised. No offense, but you're approaching this from the perspective of someone who likes things as they are, and ESO has a strong reputation for too-easy overland. I think many people have been waiting for this for a long time, including people who have left the game but would return for another go. If it got any amount of press then I think it could actually help to revitalize the game.

colossalvoids

SilverBride wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There is no punishment by not rewarding a player for purposely making their fights take longer.

To argue players should not be rewarded more for greater effort is the same as arguing they should be awarded the same for less. The ultimate consequence is one where everybody is given the same 'rewards' regardless of what they do (and don't do) in the game. You're challenging the very concept of rewards in gaming, which in any case is all about making things purposefully difficult for yourself.

Players asking for more difficulty have said they want it for immersion... so the bosses feel like the enemy they were hyped up to be. But now they want increased rewards for getting what they asked for.

It's not less rewards unless they actually change the mobs to give less experience and drops for debuffed players. The mob hasn't changed with these difficulty options, the player has.

The fact that a debuffed player can't kill as many mobs and make the same total amount of experience in the same timeframe as without using the debuff is exactly what we expect. A low level player also can't make as much experience as a higher level player fighting the same mob in the same timeframe, but they don't get extra compensation.

If the debuffed character is concerned with how much experience they are gaining they can use an experience potion or scroll just like we can now.

There was plenty of explanation done through the years to why rewards should obviously be increased if the feature is implemented. It has nothing to do with people asking for rewards, it has everything to do with design of this particular game and almost every other similar game out there.
Quick recap:
1. Rewards already have a division between normal, veteran and hm.
2. This feature is not just for the bunch of people in this exact thread, it should be available since the very start of the game and new player experience matters: baseline more gold and exp to level and repair on the same paste as "normal" players.
3. Everything have a reward structure to it, we want it or not so we don't have a say here either, every type of content have an incentive and this obviously not any different situation.

We can all day say we don't need rewards or anything but work in that department ourselves but for Zeni it is different and not a bargain of "wants". That's part of the issue, that it's either full package fully realised feature or it's nothing.

MorganaLaVey

Telling new players they need two or more times longer to level up if they want to play in immersive difficulity is pretty messed up. I also met a lot of players who have trouble to come up with the gold to feed the horses every day as is.
Overland already gives so few rewards, if you cut them in half, you might just take them out entirely.
In the meantime other players make 1.000.000.000 gold by flipping items or selling crowns.
I realy dont see anything unfair about same reward/ hour.

spartaxoxo

colossalvoids wrote: »

. That's part of the issue, that it's either full package fully realised feature or it's nothing.

Yup. That's why I feel it isn't ever going anywhere at this point. The devs have incentives for almost all content, with almost no exceptions. Certainly not ones that involve core gameplay. Sometimes though that incentive is as small as a just a little bit of experience and some coins.

I thought that would be good enough for me. I was like surely nobody would get mad if I got the exact same exp they did. But, obviously I was wrong and the devs correctly predicted that (although they didn't outright state it) all those years ago. Probably why they're the ones being paid the big bucks to do game design.

So, they'll continue to just force difficulty on everyone but only in the side content. So that it's "fair."

SilverBride

The experienced earned, whether for a buffed player or an unbuffed player, is per mob... not per minute.

Elsonso

disky wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

My biggest thought with respect to overland difficulty is simply that not enough players would use it to make the effort pay off.

I think you might be surprised. No offense, but you're approaching this from the perspective of someone who likes things as they are, and ESO has a strong reputation for too-easy overland. I think many people have been waiting for this for a long time, including people who have left the game but would return for another go. If it got any amount of press then I think it could actually help to revitalize the game.

No offense taken, but I am going off what a dev said a couple years ago that resonated with me.

SilverBride

disky wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

My biggest thought with respect to overland difficulty is simply that not enough players would use it to make the effort pay off.

I think you might be surprised. No offense, but you're approaching this from the perspective of someone who likes things as they are...

Everyone is approaching this from the perspective of what they personally think and want. That is what feedback is.

Elsonso

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

My biggest thought with respect to overland difficulty is simply that not enough players would use it to make the effort pay off.

I think you might be surprised. No offense, but you're approaching this from the perspective of someone who likes things as they are...

Everyone is approaching this from the perspective of what they personally think and want. That is what feedback is.

I want a slider. One that goes both directions so I can completely nerf the annoying overland mobs that they have milling around every 10 feet. I doubt I will get it and I think I know why they won’t be doing it.

One of the notable things about WoW overland was that eventually the mobs stopped bothering me.

MorganaLaVey

SilverBride wrote: »

The experienced earned, whether for a buffed player or an unbuffed player, is per mob... not per minute.

You always say it yourself: "Games are for relaxation". Yet, for players who dont want to be an OP demigod, you want to turn the game in to a hellhole where it takes new players ages to level up and where players with limited playtime cant afford to even feed there horses.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

The experienced earned, whether for a buffed player or an unbuffed player, is per mob... not per minute.

It's about respecting player time. If it takes twice as long to complete a quest due to the enemies taking longer to kill, that player would fall behind another player who is doing the content at normal difficulty, in order for the player who is playing at a higher difficulty to not fall behind the player on normal difficulty, the exp per mob matters. And again, does someone else getting a different amount of exp than you ruin the game for you? Because, what if I told you, that the exp per mob does change, dependent on the player's level? That's why a high level player can instantly level up and morph a skill while a lower level player can't, because the exp a mob awards changes based on the level of the player getting the exp reward.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

The experienced earned, whether for a buffed player or an unbuffed player, is per mob... not per minute.

Yes. Which is why it makes sense as an incentive to just give people their exp back so that they aren't penalizing their quest rewards only their damage.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The experienced earned, whether for a buffed player or an unbuffed player, is per mob... not per minute.

Yes. Which is why it makes sense as an incentive to just give people their exp back so that they aren't penalizing their quest rewards only their damage.

Isn't the incentive a more immersive experience? That's what has been posted multiple times in this thread.

And no experience has been taken away from anyone. The mobs will continue to give the same experience that they do for everyone. A player that chooses more difficulty knows that the enemies will take longer to defeat.

Also, how many players are just constantly fighting mobs non-stop in overland? They do quests and stop to gather resources and go to town, etc.. There is no way to calculate how many mobs they fight in an hour normally and how many they are fighting now while debuffed because these numbers will vary every time they play depending on what they are doing.

In fact, if they are enjoying the overland experience more with increased difficulty they will probably engage in it more often and actually earn more experience than when they weren't even doing overland content at all. That is not a penalty.

spartaxoxo

The incentive from a game design perspective is not the same thing as customer satisfaction. They have already explicitly stated the question of how they should incentivize it is a problem.

I stated a very simple thing. Remove the innate penalty that comes with lowering your damage by buffing the exp/coin gain to compensate, so that the end result is both groups of players get the exact same experience: an immersive, engaging storyline they can use to level up their characters at roughly the same or similar speed. They already do this for low levels.

If equality is so unfair to some players, then the devs might as well abandon the idea of options and continue down their path of forcing difficulty on everyone IMO. This is clearly the path they have chosen. They are going to keep forcing it on everyone, but not in the one area that vet players want it. And now, I am no longer interested in arguing against forced design. I think with that design decision we all lose. But clearly there is nothing small and not impactful enough they could throw us that wouldn't upset part of their playerbase. So, I understand it now. I guess we all lose. It is what it is.

SilverBride

Low levels do not get increased experience per kill to make up for it taking them longer to kill enemies than it takes a higher level player.

There is no penalty for a player asking for increased difficulty then using the option for it. Taking longer to defeat an enemy is logically what will happen when a player deals less damage. This is what was asked for by the player.

And wasn't immersion the only reason that was given repeatedly for wanting more difficulty? Now all at once increased rewards are necessary for the player to be satisfied.

I've tried to be supportive of sliders and debuffs so some players could enjoy their experience more, but the reward issue is turning me away from wanting any options implemented.

It's also important to note that the changes that have been made were all to bosses, which was one of the biggest complaints that was stated repeatedly in this thread. That had nothing to do with some players not agreeing with increased rewards for being debuffed, which hadn't even been discussed in a very long time until it was brought up 2 days ago.

So let's go back to agreeing to disagree.

spartaxoxo

They don't get increased exp in particular but they are buffed to make up for the mobs being 160, so they don't have to kill enemies at such a slow rate and can level at a decent pace.

The argument our time should be worth less has made me stop caring about options entirely. I don't want to advocate for them anymore.

CP5

Silver. It's about respecting players time and being consistent with everywhere else in the entire game. Does a player getting more exp from a mob really act as the point you refuse to explore the topic any further? If a level 10 and a level 50 player team up to kill a delve boss, guess what? The two players already get different amounts of exp, and different quality loot of different levels, and different tier crafting materials if the boss can drop them. Is that unfair?

We can't agree to disagree, because so long as this mindset is present, both here and likely among the devs, nothing meaningful will be done. Your position misses a lot of absolute facts of how the game currently works, and if even the devs can't apply the logic that's already in the game to overland, and if they hold the same position on these points as you do, then we won't get a decisive solution that allows both those who are content with things as is and those who are here voicing their desire for change to enjoy the overland at the same time.

Unless you, and more importantly ZOS, are able to understand how the game already works everywhere except overland, then expect to see zones become more divided, towns and roads being for casual questing, world bosses and public dungeons being made too difficult for the average player, with a continued expression of confusion form ZOS as to why we, the people who want a meaningful time engaging with the world aren't content with being put in a corner with world bosses and told to be happy.

The fact remains that a strong, decisive decision, to do nothing, to create separate instances, to have the gall of standardizing already existing loot systems to allow for same instance different difficulty, anything meaningful, would require a lot of effort, something far more difficult than 'flicking a switch', but it would be far healthier in the long run for the game. If "that person got more exp for killing a wolf than me" is the point of no return for you, expect ZOS to think that any options to give decisive experiences to players and to see more excessively challenging content shoved into overland in their attempts to compromise, unless ZOS actually comes down on a solid decision.

But considering ZOS has shown no attempt to communicate in this thread, and their efforts in game have shown no efforts to make the overworld experience more widely engaging, choosing to instead make curated boxes to shove the dissatisfied into, I'd expect to see more compromise like what we see most recently than anything else.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

Unless you, and more importantly ZOS, are able to understand how the game already works everywhere except overland...

ZoS does understand how the game aready works... everywhere... it is their game that they deveoped.

CP5 wrote: »

...But considering ZOS has shown no attempt to communicate in this thread, and their efforts in game have shown no efforts to make the overworld experience more widely engaging

ZoS have replied with their stand in this thread a few times. And they have not only heard the complaints, but made changes that addressed them.

This thread has been up almost 3 years now and there have been MULTIPLE posts about Bosses dying too fast, and dying before they even finish their dialogue, and the main thing players wanted was for Bosses to feel like the bad guy they were hyped up to be. Well they got it. What they asked for happened. And besides that they gave additional challenging content like Bastion Nymics.

Why isn't that enough?

spartaxoxo

We have not, at any point, got what we asked for.

SilverBride

Players said multiple times that the main thing they wanted was for Bosses to feel like the bad guy they were hyped up to be. That happened. No boss dies too fast or before they complete any dialogue now. So yes players got what they stated was the main thing they wanted for immersion in the story.

MorganaLaVey

SilverBride wrote: »

Isn't the incentive a more immersive experience? That's what has been posted multiple times in this thread.

SilverBride wrote: »

And wasn't immersion the only reason that was given repeatedly for wanting more difficulty? Now all at once increased rewards are necessary for the player to be satisfied.

Yes, but people in this thread are not the only people in the game. While everyone here in the thread has probably collected millons of gold and thousands of CP and dont care much for overland rewards, if a system like this is to be implemented it also needs to take in into account all the player not here on the forum, like new players who want to level up and low playtime player who want to feed there horses. Without adjusted rewards those players would have to choose if they want to immerse them self or lvel up / make gold.

SilverBride wrote: »

Also, how many players are just constantly fighting mobs non-stop in overland? They do quests and stop to gather resources and go to town, etc.. There is no way to calculate how many mobs they fight in an hour normally and how many they are fighting now while debuffed because these numbers will vary every time they play depending on what they are doing.

You'r just messing with us right ? If you take the difficulty slider up 30% rewards also go up 30%??? Or not ?

SilverBride wrote: »

In fact, if they are enjoying the overland experience more with increased difficulty they will probably engage in it more often and actually earn more experience than when they weren't even doing overland content at all. That is not a penalty.

People have jobs and real life we cant simply play a few hours longer just because its so much fun
And if you mean people will do overland over other ESO activitys... off the top of my head the only activity i can think of that gives less exp/ gold than overland is decorating houses. So if anything doing more overland will give you less exp & gold.

SilverBride wrote: »

I've tried to be supportive of sliders and debuffs so some players could enjoy their experience more, but the reward issue is turning me away from wanting any options implemented.

I dont understand what exactly is turning you away ? It would not even effect you in any way whether someone makes 10.000 exp. in 1h by playing overland in low or high difficulty. You could not even tell the difference?

SilverBride

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

I dont understand what exactly is turning you away ?

This is what is turning me away.

• Being told that the MAIN things players wanted was harder boss fights for immersion. They got that.
• Now that they have that increased rewards are being brought up.
• Players stating that ZoS has done nothing to address overland difficulty when they made the boss changes and added Bastion Nymics that they stated specifically were introduded as one answer to overland difficulty.
• Players stating that ZoS has not communicated about this but there have been posts in this thread a few times stating their stand.
• Posts that state those of us that do not want overland changes, even those of us that still advocate for them anyway, are the reason ZoS has not done more. Particularly stating that those of us that do not think increased rewards are warranted for debuffed players is the reason.
• We are expected to be sympathetic of players wanting more difficulty, and for a large part players have been. But where is the empathy for those of us that aren't happy with the changes being made and don't want our game experience that we have enjoyed this way for 8 years to be taken out from under us?
• A lot of players can no longer succeed at the Story Boss fights. And many have turned away from even trying World Bosses and Public Dungeon group event Bosses now because of this change. Who is caring about us?

TaSheen

I would assume that the person fighting the more rewards issue is looking at herself knowing that if the rewards are increased to make up for the longer TTK etc she'll find herself using the "better rewarded" overland instead of where she's actually comfortable.

If that's not it, then perhaps she can state exactly what it is, because I can't see any reason to even worry about it. It doesn't matter to me what great and glorious rewards people get (or don't) from harder overland; I don't care - I'll stick my sorry ass to normal overland as long as I'm playing this game.

As I said a while back, the last few DLCs (since Galen) have been much harder for me (with my issues such as age, crap reflexes, and only satellite for connection) to deal with, so I'm already not happy about that much increased difficulty in overland.... and I'm expecting that to get worse from now on, to the point where it will probably get to where I can't play anything but base game and the early DLCs any more.

I really want to see a slider or something for all y'all who want it, so what I like hopefully will be left alone.

BasP

While increased rewards hadn't crossed my mind until a couple of days ago, and I would be okay without them, I truly don't understand why it'd be unfair to "the rest of the playerbase" if a higher difficulty setting also had slightly increased gold and experience to make playing on such a difficulty less penalizing from a gameplay perspective.

Let's imagine that there'd be the following difficulties:

• Easy: Damage Taken is reduced by 90% (mostly so that players with slow reflexes/high ping have a better chance at surviving certain quest bosses in newer content)
• Normal: ESO's current difficulty
• Hard: Damage Taken is increased by 100%. Damage Done is reduced by 50%. XP and Gold are increased by 25%.
• Deadly: Damage Taken is increased by 250%. Damage Done is reduced by 50%. XP and Gold are increased by 50%.
• Fearless: Damage Taken is increased by 500%. Damage Done is reduced by 75%. XP and Gold are increased by 100%.
• Heroic: Damage Taken is increased by 750%. Damage Done is reduced by 75%. XP and Gold are increased by 150%.
• Undaunted: Damage Taken is increased by 1000%. Damage Done is reduced by 90%. XP and Gold are increased by 250%.

With values such as those, I think that it's safe to say that playing on a higher difficulty just for the increased XP and gold would be inefficient, so players that would choose to play on Easy or Normal wouldn't miss out on anything. In fact, they'd probably be better off, as the increased rewards would most likely not even cover the longer time to kill nor the repair costs.

(Or, instead of static increased rewards, perhaps Overland enemies could have a small chance to drop a bound item - called "Undaunted Bounty" or something - that could be sold to a merchant for gold or be consumed to give an immediate XP boost and Undaunted Reputation. But I suppose it would be unfair if those that played on a higher difficulty would get an item that's designed only for them...)

spartaxoxo

I still have to hold back against main bosses so that they actually feel like a threat. They are still very easy and do not feel like a big bad. Yeah, they threw us a bone with the immunity phases in the sense you get to hear some dialogue. But, the boss in no way feels like a big bad. They are all trivial.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I still have to hold back against main bosses so that they actually feel like a threat. They are still very easy and do not feel like a big bad. Yeah, they threw us a bone with the immunity phases in the sense you get to hear some dialogue. But, the boss in no way feels like a big bad. They are all trivial.

It's enough for some, not enough for others, and too much for many. What some consider easy has already prevented a lot of players from even being able to complete the story arcs now because they can't beat the Story Boss. This is not ok.

spartaxoxo

It's not enough for the people making this request. Which is why we asked for difficulty options. But ZOS decided that they didn't want to separate players and also can't do a toggle because of the incentive problem, so, forced difficulty that's too hard for casuals and still too easy for vets is what they settled on.

SilverBride

Is the incentive immersion or isn't it?

TaSheen

SilverBride wrote: »

Is the incentive immersion or isn't it?

Not for everyone, obviously.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

Is the incentive immersion or isn't it?

Immersion while questing is the main thing I want. But, the point of the questing system is to level alts. Why should casuals get to quest in a way that is both immersive and useful, but veteran players have to give up use for immersion? Why is casual players time worth more than mine? How is a casual player harmed because a vet player got the same experience points as them after 30 minutes of questing or whatever?