Overland Content Feedback Thread

spartaxoxo

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

If a player wants to do more difficult content, should they be rewarded less gold and exp because fights took longer?

Also, "It is wrong however to reward players with better rewards just for getting something they asked for." They still need to actually do the content. Sort of like asking ZOS to make changes to an upcoming set on PTS, the set getting changes (a good joke, I know) and claiming the set was given to them, when in reality they still need to actually do the content.

Please elaborate on your thoughts that, if a player is doing overland content at a higher difficulty, why they should then fall behind other players who are doing the same content on normal because combat encounters take longer and thus increase the time between combat rewards?

I do not support any difficulty options if there are increased rewards for it. That's being doubly rewarded and is not fair to the rest of the playerbase.

I don't care about rewards, I simply want to have fun. However, I truly don't think it's that big of a deal if players get Epic-quality gear instead of Rare, because it's so easy to upgrade anyway. Same with gold - no one has ever had their mind blown by overland gold gains. I think it's probably best to let people feel like they're getting something for turning things up a notch rather than shutting them down and tanking the feature altogether.

This thinking is probably based on a notion that it's what players are asking for here, being immersed etc. so an ask for a reward for the effort spent looks iffy. This ignores game design and how rewards are structured to reward time and effort depending on difficulty levels. As previously said by another user it's at the very least as simple as two times more exp and gold for 2 times the "time to kill" we're getting potentially or simply following a pattern we already have with difficulty and rewards to it like blue-green to purple drops.

The thing ignored also is that difficult overland option isn't made for a bunch of forum users to stop complaining, if it was to be implemented it would be a game system which would obey the game's ruleset and overall design structure. There should be incentives for new players, existing ones and for ones who they potentially want to return. They would also want existing non vet players to at least try it out same as with dungeons, pvp and trials, as a lot of people aren't even aware it's something they might potentially like - me being perfect example of it as a single player andy who bought eso to read new lore books and got baited into pvp and pve "endgame" by events, skins to hide vamp etc. and I loved it, thanks to that structure.

Understandable, and if you looked back far enough, you would see that I campaigned against rewards for increased challenge. However, do we honestly believe that it's really that big of a deal to get a slightly better bit of gear, slightly more gold and/or slightly more experience? I don't think that it is. But I do think that some people will have a problem with it and that could act as a speedbump to getting the feature implemented.

Possibly the best idea would be to start with no rewards, keep the feature in live, public testing for some time, and then when people are comfortable with it, add some minor reward. Again, it makes no difference to me whatsoever but obviously there are people who expect this sort of thing.

I mean if it went live without increased exp and gold gain, it would be a punishment to use it. Because enemies would take longer to kill but give the same exp. I really don't think it should matter if some people have an issue with vet players get the same rewards as they do.

I don't think it could be considered a punishment if it's deliberately enabled by the player, but I do think that many people would avoid it if there were no compensation involved

Yeah, it can. How else would someone be punished for using a feature?

Because it's something we asked for and wanted. I will take this feature however I can get it because for me, it's not about compensation, it's about fun. Overland isn't fun and more challenge would make it more fun. Any additional reward that comes with it is ancillary.

Right. But just because you asked for it doesn't mean you can't be punished. Have you ever heard of the monkey paw, for example?

Muizer

SilverBride wrote: »

That is just one reason I don't want veteran zones. It is not fair to those that are unable to survive veteran mobs to get better rewards for an increased difficulty they asked for.

You could also argue that it is not fair that those who choose the Veteran option would gather less rewards because it takes more time and effort to get through the same number of mobs, nodes etc. It comes down to balancing difficulty and rewards, such that you create roughly equally rewarding but different game experiences.

I do agree btw, that the way Veteran and Normal content are implemented right now is simply bad game design.
It creates a positive feedback loop, where the stronger you are, the stronger you'll get. That is why people looking for a challenge are funneled into harder difficulty content.

But here is the problem, which is part of the reason why this thread exists: Overland and Dungeons are wholly different game play experiences. There is no reason to assume someone who likes one will like the other. That would only apply to a subset who only care about combat difficulty and are indifferent to everything else.

If anything that is why this thread has a reason to exist: ZOS have created this obvious gap in the content they offer. That is why it will be raised as an issue time and again.

SilverBride

disky wrote: »

I don't think it could be considered a punishment if it's deliberately enabled by the player...

colossalvoids wrote: »

This thinking is probably based on a notion that it's what players are asking for here, being immersed etc. so an ask for a reward for the effort spent looks iffy.

This and this.

disky

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

If a player wants to do more difficult content, should they be rewarded less gold and exp because fights took longer?

Also, "It is wrong however to reward players with better rewards just for getting something they asked for." They still need to actually do the content. Sort of like asking ZOS to make changes to an upcoming set on PTS, the set getting changes (a good joke, I know) and claiming the set was given to them, when in reality they still need to actually do the content.

Please elaborate on your thoughts that, if a player is doing overland content at a higher difficulty, why they should then fall behind other players who are doing the same content on normal because combat encounters take longer and thus increase the time between combat rewards?

I do not support any difficulty options if there are increased rewards for it. That's being doubly rewarded and is not fair to the rest of the playerbase.

I don't care about rewards, I simply want to have fun. However, I truly don't think it's that big of a deal if players get Epic-quality gear instead of Rare, because it's so easy to upgrade anyway. Same with gold - no one has ever had their mind blown by overland gold gains. I think it's probably best to let people feel like they're getting something for turning things up a notch rather than shutting them down and tanking the feature altogether.

This thinking is probably based on a notion that it's what players are asking for here, being immersed etc. so an ask for a reward for the effort spent looks iffy. This ignores game design and how rewards are structured to reward time and effort depending on difficulty levels. As previously said by another user it's at the very least as simple as two times more exp and gold for 2 times the "time to kill" we're getting potentially or simply following a pattern we already have with difficulty and rewards to it like blue-green to purple drops.

The thing ignored also is that difficult overland option isn't made for a bunch of forum users to stop complaining, if it was to be implemented it would be a game system which would obey the game's ruleset and overall design structure. There should be incentives for new players, existing ones and for ones who they potentially want to return. They would also want existing non vet players to at least try it out same as with dungeons, pvp and trials, as a lot of people aren't even aware it's something they might potentially like - me being perfect example of it as a single player andy who bought eso to read new lore books and got baited into pvp and pve "endgame" by events, skins to hide vamp etc. and I loved it, thanks to that structure.

Understandable, and if you looked back far enough, you would see that I campaigned against rewards for increased challenge. However, do we honestly believe that it's really that big of a deal to get a slightly better bit of gear, slightly more gold and/or slightly more experience? I don't think that it is. But I do think that some people will have a problem with it and that could act as a speedbump to getting the feature implemented.

Possibly the best idea would be to start with no rewards, keep the feature in live, public testing for some time, and then when people are comfortable with it, add some minor reward. Again, it makes no difference to me whatsoever but obviously there are people who expect this sort of thing.

I mean if it went live without increased exp and gold gain, it would be a punishment to use it. Because enemies would take longer to kill but give the same exp. I really don't think it should matter if some people have an issue with vet players get the same rewards as they do.

I don't think it could be considered a punishment if it's deliberately enabled by the player, but I do think that many people would avoid it if there were no compensation involved

Yeah, it can. How else would someone be punished for using a feature?

Because it's something we asked for and wanted. I will take this feature however I can get it because for me, it's not about compensation, it's about fun. Overland isn't fun and more challenge would make it more fun. Any additional reward that comes with it is ancillary.

Right. But just because you asked for it doesn't mean you can't be punished. Have you ever heard of the monkey paw, for example?

But if the thing we're asking for is the thing we get, what's the punishment? We're here because we want a challenge, not additional rewards. Right?

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, just that the challenge, if if did ever actually happen, would be the primary reward. If it makes the game enjoyable, that's all I personally need.

LesserCircle

Let me tell you this ZOS, EVERY SINGLE discussion I see about ANYONE talking about ESO mentions overland being TOO EASY, like it's a primary turn off for most people looking to play the game, give some options at least.

spartaxoxo

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

If a player wants to do more difficult content, should they be rewarded less gold and exp because fights took longer?

Also, "It is wrong however to reward players with better rewards just for getting something they asked for." They still need to actually do the content. Sort of like asking ZOS to make changes to an upcoming set on PTS, the set getting changes (a good joke, I know) and claiming the set was given to them, when in reality they still need to actually do the content.

Please elaborate on your thoughts that, if a player is doing overland content at a higher difficulty, why they should then fall behind other players who are doing the same content on normal because combat encounters take longer and thus increase the time between combat rewards?

I do not support any difficulty options if there are increased rewards for it. That's being doubly rewarded and is not fair to the rest of the playerbase.

I don't care about rewards, I simply want to have fun. However, I truly don't think it's that big of a deal if players get Epic-quality gear instead of Rare, because it's so easy to upgrade anyway. Same with gold - no one has ever had their mind blown by overland gold gains. I think it's probably best to let people feel like they're getting something for turning things up a notch rather than shutting them down and tanking the feature altogether.

This thinking is probably based on a notion that it's what players are asking for here, being immersed etc. so an ask for a reward for the effort spent looks iffy. This ignores game design and how rewards are structured to reward time and effort depending on difficulty levels. As previously said by another user it's at the very least as simple as two times more exp and gold for 2 times the "time to kill" we're getting potentially or simply following a pattern we already have with difficulty and rewards to it like blue-green to purple drops.

The thing ignored also is that difficult overland option isn't made for a bunch of forum users to stop complaining, if it was to be implemented it would be a game system which would obey the game's ruleset and overall design structure. There should be incentives for new players, existing ones and for ones who they potentially want to return. They would also want existing non vet players to at least try it out same as with dungeons, pvp and trials, as a lot of people aren't even aware it's something they might potentially like - me being perfect example of it as a single player andy who bought eso to read new lore books and got baited into pvp and pve "endgame" by events, skins to hide vamp etc. and I loved it, thanks to that structure.

Understandable, and if you looked back far enough, you would see that I campaigned against rewards for increased challenge. However, do we honestly believe that it's really that big of a deal to get a slightly better bit of gear, slightly more gold and/or slightly more experience? I don't think that it is. But I do think that some people will have a problem with it and that could act as a speedbump to getting the feature implemented.

Possibly the best idea would be to start with no rewards, keep the feature in live, public testing for some time, and then when people are comfortable with it, add some minor reward. Again, it makes no difference to me whatsoever but obviously there are people who expect this sort of thing.

I mean if it went live without increased exp and gold gain, it would be a punishment to use it. Because enemies would take longer to kill but give the same exp. I really don't think it should matter if some people have an issue with vet players get the same rewards as they do.

I don't think it could be considered a punishment if it's deliberately enabled by the player, but I do think that many people would avoid it if there were no compensation involved

Yeah, it can. How else would someone be punished for using a feature?

Because it's something we asked for and wanted. I will take this feature however I can get it because for me, it's not about compensation, it's about fun. Overland isn't fun and more challenge would make it more fun. Any additional reward that comes with it is ancillary.

Right. But just because you asked for it doesn't mean you can't be punished. Have you ever heard of the monkey paw, for example?

But if the thing we're asking for is the thing we get, what's the punishment? We're here because we want a challenge, not additional rewards. Right?

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, just that the challenge, if if did ever actually happen, would be the primary reward. If it makes the game enjoyable, that's all I personally need.

I'm not asking for additional rewards. I am saying I should get the same rewards as people playing on normal. And being against that is effectively saying I should get less rewards than someone playing on normal. Because that's how math works.

If I get half of the exp and coin, how is that not a punishment? How is my rewards being cut in half not a punishment for using it?

Again simple math

2 wolves in 1 minute = 100 exp and 50 gold

1 wolf in 1 minutes = 50 exp and 25 gold with no modifier

1 wolf in 1 minute = 100 exp and 50 gold with modifier

100 exp and 50 gold = 100 exp and 50 gold

100 exp and 50 gold > 50 exp and 25 gold

It's one thing to say our rewards should be the same as normal. It's quite another saying we should have our rewards cut in half as punishment for getting what we want. And the only reason for that being so people on normal can feel better about us getting something nice.

What if we applied this logic to other requests in the game? Like okay the devs increase the drop rate for bound style pages, but getting one now means you can't get any gear, motifs, or exp from dungeons that day. Or now they let you hide tassets, but to make people who liked them feel better, if you hide them you're not allowed to wear pants anymore. That's not fairness.

Whatever solution they chose, at a bare minimum, our time and effort should be worth the same as someone playing on normal. There is not a single balance reason why that shouldn't be the case.

disky

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

If a player wants to do more difficult content, should they be rewarded less gold and exp because fights took longer?

Also, "It is wrong however to reward players with better rewards just for getting something they asked for." They still need to actually do the content. Sort of like asking ZOS to make changes to an upcoming set on PTS, the set getting changes (a good joke, I know) and claiming the set was given to them, when in reality they still need to actually do the content.

Please elaborate on your thoughts that, if a player is doing overland content at a higher difficulty, why they should then fall behind other players who are doing the same content on normal because combat encounters take longer and thus increase the time between combat rewards?

I do not support any difficulty options if there are increased rewards for it. That's being doubly rewarded and is not fair to the rest of the playerbase.

I don't care about rewards, I simply want to have fun. However, I truly don't think it's that big of a deal if players get Epic-quality gear instead of Rare, because it's so easy to upgrade anyway. Same with gold - no one has ever had their mind blown by overland gold gains. I think it's probably best to let people feel like they're getting something for turning things up a notch rather than shutting them down and tanking the feature altogether.

This thinking is probably based on a notion that it's what players are asking for here, being immersed etc. so an ask for a reward for the effort spent looks iffy. This ignores game design and how rewards are structured to reward time and effort depending on difficulty levels. As previously said by another user it's at the very least as simple as two times more exp and gold for 2 times the "time to kill" we're getting potentially or simply following a pattern we already have with difficulty and rewards to it like blue-green to purple drops.

The thing ignored also is that difficult overland option isn't made for a bunch of forum users to stop complaining, if it was to be implemented it would be a game system which would obey the game's ruleset and overall design structure. There should be incentives for new players, existing ones and for ones who they potentially want to return. They would also want existing non vet players to at least try it out same as with dungeons, pvp and trials, as a lot of people aren't even aware it's something they might potentially like - me being perfect example of it as a single player andy who bought eso to read new lore books and got baited into pvp and pve "endgame" by events, skins to hide vamp etc. and I loved it, thanks to that structure.

Understandable, and if you looked back far enough, you would see that I campaigned against rewards for increased challenge. However, do we honestly believe that it's really that big of a deal to get a slightly better bit of gear, slightly more gold and/or slightly more experience? I don't think that it is. But I do think that some people will have a problem with it and that could act as a speedbump to getting the feature implemented.

Possibly the best idea would be to start with no rewards, keep the feature in live, public testing for some time, and then when people are comfortable with it, add some minor reward. Again, it makes no difference to me whatsoever but obviously there are people who expect this sort of thing.

I mean if it went live without increased exp and gold gain, it would be a punishment to use it. Because enemies would take longer to kill but give the same exp. I really don't think it should matter if some people have an issue with vet players get the same rewards as they do.

I don't think it could be considered a punishment if it's deliberately enabled by the player, but I do think that many people would avoid it if there were no compensation involved

Yeah, it can. How else would someone be punished for using a feature?

Because it's something we asked for and wanted. I will take this feature however I can get it because for me, it's not about compensation, it's about fun. Overland isn't fun and more challenge would make it more fun. Any additional reward that comes with it is ancillary.

Right. But just because you asked for it doesn't mean you can't be punished. Have you ever heard of the monkey paw, for example?

But if the thing we're asking for is the thing we get, what's the punishment? We're here because we want a challenge, not additional rewards. Right?

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, just that the challenge, if if did ever actually happen, would be the primary reward. If it makes the game enjoyable, that's all I personally need.

I'm not asking for additional rewards. I am saying I should get the same rewards as people playing on normal...

I understand the math. Personally though, I wouldn't mind because I feel like that just goes along with the nature of increased challenge. I do believe that I'm in the minority and I agree that for it to make sense for most people there has to be some compensation in order for it to be attractive enough to use, but I also think that it's going to be misunderstood and seen as problematic for players that don't want it unless care is taken with the communication and implementation of anything related to rewards.

spartaxoxo

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

If a player wants to do more difficult content, should they be rewarded less gold and exp because fights took longer?

Also, "It is wrong however to reward players with better rewards just for getting something they asked for." They still need to actually do the content. Sort of like asking ZOS to make changes to an upcoming set on PTS, the set getting changes (a good joke, I know) and claiming the set was given to them, when in reality they still need to actually do the content.

Please elaborate on your thoughts that, if a player is doing overland content at a higher difficulty, why they should then fall behind other players who are doing the same content on normal because combat encounters take longer and thus increase the time between combat rewards?

I do not support any difficulty options if there are increased rewards for it. That's being doubly rewarded and is not fair to the rest of the playerbase.

I don't care about rewards, I simply want to have fun. However, I truly don't think it's that big of a deal if players get Epic-quality gear instead of Rare, because it's so easy to upgrade anyway. Same with gold - no one has ever had their mind blown by overland gold gains. I think it's probably best to let people feel like they're getting something for turning things up a notch rather than shutting them down and tanking the feature altogether.

This thinking is probably based on a notion that it's what players are asking for here, being immersed etc. so an ask for a reward for the effort spent looks iffy. This ignores game design and how rewards are structured to reward time and effort depending on difficulty levels. As previously said by another user it's at the very least as simple as two times more exp and gold for 2 times the "time to kill" we're getting potentially or simply following a pattern we already have with difficulty and rewards to it like blue-green to purple drops.

The thing ignored also is that difficult overland option isn't made for a bunch of forum users to stop complaining, if it was to be implemented it would be a game system which would obey the game's ruleset and overall design structure. There should be incentives for new players, existing ones and for ones who they potentially want to return. They would also want existing non vet players to at least try it out same as with dungeons, pvp and trials, as a lot of people aren't even aware it's something they might potentially like - me being perfect example of it as a single player andy who bought eso to read new lore books and got baited into pvp and pve "endgame" by events, skins to hide vamp etc. and I loved it, thanks to that structure.

Understandable, and if you looked back far enough, you would see that I campaigned against rewards for increased challenge. However, do we honestly believe that it's really that big of a deal to get a slightly better bit of gear, slightly more gold and/or slightly more experience? I don't think that it is. But I do think that some people will have a problem with it and that could act as a speedbump to getting the feature implemented.

Possibly the best idea would be to start with no rewards, keep the feature in live, public testing for some time, and then when people are comfortable with it, add some minor reward. Again, it makes no difference to me whatsoever but obviously there are people who expect this sort of thing.

I mean if it went live without increased exp and gold gain, it would be a punishment to use it. Because enemies would take longer to kill but give the same exp. I really don't think it should matter if some people have an issue with vet players get the same rewards as they do.

I don't think it could be considered a punishment if it's deliberately enabled by the player, but I do think that many people would avoid it if there were no compensation involved

Yeah, it can. How else would someone be punished for using a feature?

Because it's something we asked for and wanted. I will take this feature however I can get it because for me, it's not about compensation, it's about fun. Overland isn't fun and more challenge would make it more fun. Any additional reward that comes with it is ancillary.

Right. But just because you asked for it doesn't mean you can't be punished. Have you ever heard of the monkey paw, for example?

But if the thing we're asking for is the thing we get, what's the punishment? We're here because we want a challenge, not additional rewards. Right?

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, just that the challenge, if if did ever actually happen, would be the primary reward. If it makes the game enjoyable, that's all I personally need.

I'm not asking for additional rewards. I am saying I should get the same rewards as people playing on normal...

I understand the math. Personally though, I wouldn't mind because I feel like that just goes along with the nature of increased challenge. I do believe that I'm in the minority and I agree that for it to makes sense for most people there has to be some compensation in order for it to be attractive enough to use, but I also think that it's going to be misunderstood and seen as problematic for other players unless care is taken with the communication and implementation of anything related to rewards.

Vet activities usually have better rewards outside of coin and exp to make up for it. Like it's unusual for increased challenge to be far worse than regular mode in any game. I honestly can't think of any off the top of my head. I don't think anyone would like that for questing. So at the very least, it should give the same exp and coin. I understand not upgrading for the gear for the optics, I don't care about that. I don't want more. I just want the same.

I don't see needing to explain it well being a barrier TBH. Just explain the feature and put it on the PTS, same as they do any other feature.

I seriously doubt a ton of people would be angry that vet players got the exact same rewards as they did.

disky

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

If a player wants to do more difficult content, should they be rewarded less gold and exp because fights took longer?

Also, "It is wrong however to reward players with better rewards just for getting something they asked for." They still need to actually do the content. Sort of like asking ZOS to make changes to an upcoming set on PTS, the set getting changes (a good joke, I know) and claiming the set was given to them, when in reality they still need to actually do the content.

Please elaborate on your thoughts that, if a player is doing overland content at a higher difficulty, why they should then fall behind other players who are doing the same content on normal because combat encounters take longer and thus increase the time between combat rewards?

I do not support any difficulty options if there are increased rewards for it. That's being doubly rewarded and is not fair to the rest of the playerbase.

I don't care about rewards, I simply want to have fun. However, I truly don't think it's that big of a deal if players get Epic-quality gear instead of Rare, because it's so easy to upgrade anyway. Same with gold - no one has ever had their mind blown by overland gold gains. I think it's probably best to let people feel like they're getting something for turning things up a notch rather than shutting them down and tanking the feature altogether.

This thinking is probably based on a notion that it's what players are asking for here, being immersed etc. so an ask for a reward for the effort spent looks iffy. This ignores game design and how rewards are structured to reward time and effort depending on difficulty levels. As previously said by another user it's at the very least as simple as two times more exp and gold for 2 times the "time to kill" we're getting potentially or simply following a pattern we already have with difficulty and rewards to it like blue-green to purple drops.

The thing ignored also is that difficult overland option isn't made for a bunch of forum users to stop complaining, if it was to be implemented it would be a game system which would obey the game's ruleset and overall design structure. There should be incentives for new players, existing ones and for ones who they potentially want to return. They would also want existing non vet players to at least try it out same as with dungeons, pvp and trials, as a lot of people aren't even aware it's something they might potentially like - me being perfect example of it as a single player andy who bought eso to read new lore books and got baited into pvp and pve "endgame" by events, skins to hide vamp etc. and I loved it, thanks to that structure.

Understandable, and if you looked back far enough, you would see that I campaigned against rewards for increased challenge. However, do we honestly believe that it's really that big of a deal to get a slightly better bit of gear, slightly more gold and/or slightly more experience? I don't think that it is. But I do think that some people will have a problem with it and that could act as a speedbump to getting the feature implemented.

Possibly the best idea would be to start with no rewards, keep the feature in live, public testing for some time, and then when people are comfortable with it, add some minor reward. Again, it makes no difference to me whatsoever but obviously there are people who expect this sort of thing.

I mean if it went live without increased exp and gold gain, it would be a punishment to use it. Because enemies would take longer to kill but give the same exp. I really don't think it should matter if some people have an issue with vet players get the same rewards as they do.

I don't think it could be considered a punishment if it's deliberately enabled by the player, but I do think that many people would avoid it if there were no compensation involved

Yeah, it can. How else would someone be punished for using a feature?

Because it's something we asked for and wanted. I will take this feature however I can get it because for me, it's not about compensation, it's about fun. Overland isn't fun and more challenge would make it more fun. Any additional reward that comes with it is ancillary.

Right. But just because you asked for it doesn't mean you can't be punished. Have you ever heard of the monkey paw, for example?

But if the thing we're asking for is the thing we get, what's the punishment? We're here because we want a challenge, not additional rewards. Right?

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, just that the challenge, if if did ever actually happen, would be the primary reward. If it makes the game enjoyable, that's all I personally need.

I'm not asking for additional rewards. I am saying I should get the same rewards as people playing on normal...

I understand the math. Personally though, I wouldn't mind because I feel like that just goes along with the nature of increased challenge. I do believe that I'm in the minority and I agree that for it to makes sense for most people there has to be some compensation in order for it to be attractive enough to use, but I also think that it's going to be misunderstood and seen as problematic for other players unless care is taken with the communication and implementation of anything related to rewards.

Vet activities usually have better rewards outside of coin and exp to make up for it. Like it's unusual for increased challenge to be far worse than regular mode in any game. I honestly can't think of any off the top of my head. I don't think anyone would like that for questing. So at the very least, it should give the same exp and coin. I understand not upgrading for the gear for the optics, I don't care about that. I don't want more. I just want the same.

I don't see needing to explain it well being a barrier TBH. Just explain the feature and put it on the PTS, same as they do any other feature.

I seriously doubt a ton of people would be angry that vet players got the exact same rewards as they did.

Maybe not. Maybe we're just in this discussion with people who are more strongly opposed to the idea than the average player. In my experience though, MMO players tend to find something to complain about with any change no matter how minimal, and the most important thing for me is that this change actually happens. If that means no improved rewards then I'm 100% okay with that.

SilverBride

The whole point of wanting more difficult fights is for them to be more difficult for immersion, which means the fights will take longer. The loot table is determined by what the mob is, not how long it takes any particular player to defeat it.

Also, a slider or debuff only affects the player, not the mob, so the mobs loot table is not affected.

Two scenarios:

Player A is a new level 3 ungeared character. Player B is a CP2000 fully geared character. They are both fighting the same type of mob. It takes player A longer than Player B to defeat the mob, so should they earn more rewards from it?

Player A CP2000 is a fully geared character, but doesn't have a good build or skills or experience. Player B is also CP2000 fully geared but uses a good build and rotation, and is experienced. They are both fighting the same type of mob. It takes Player A longer than Player B to defeat the mob, so should they earn more rewards from it?

The answer to all of these is no.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

Also, a slider or debuff only affects the player, not the mob, so the mobs loot table is not affected.

Individual exp buffs are already in the game. As are gold gain ones. It would not affect the loot table, only the exp received while debuffed.

They have this on LOTRO so that players using the slider don't get punished for using it. Low level characters in this game do get buffs to even things out.

SilverBride

This isn't LOTRO, which I have played and it plays very differently than ESO. Using that as an example is comparing apples to oranges.

There is no punishment by not rewarding a player for purposely making their fights take longer.

spartaxoxo

Getting half the exp and gold as someone playing on normal is a punishment for using it. That's why pretty much every game that have these options give something to a player doing an increased challenge.

My opinion is not going to change on that. So, let's just agree to disagree.

BasP

If ZOS ever implemented difficulty settings, I wouldn't be surprised if there'd be some kind of rewards to go along with it. Those rewards probably wouldn't be great so that no one would feel pressured into playing on a higher difficulty, but I can image that there would be a couple of achievements (for killing X enemies on Y difficulty, for example) and perhaps a title or dye or something.

I also don't think that gaining a bit more XP and gold would be unfair considering fights would take longer, players would have to spend more money repairing their gear, and players would probably need to use consumables more often too. So without anything to offset that, playing on a harder difficulty could be seen as punishment (especially for players that don't have a lot of CP and/or gold already). But I'd personally be okay without increased drops.

CP5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

If a player wants to do more difficult content, should they be rewarded less gold and exp because fights took longer?

Also, "It is wrong however to reward players with better rewards just for getting something they asked for." They still need to actually do the content. Sort of like asking ZOS to make changes to an upcoming set on PTS, the set getting changes (a good joke, I know) and claiming the set was given to them, when in reality they still need to actually do the content.

Please elaborate on your thoughts that, if a player is doing overland content at a higher difficulty, why they should then fall behind other players who are doing the same content on normal because combat encounters take longer and thus increase the time between combat rewards?

I do not support any difficulty options if there are increased rewards for it. That's being doubly rewarded and is not fair to the rest of the playerbase.

I don't care about rewards, I simply want to have fun. However, I truly don't think it's that big of a deal if players get Epic-quality gear instead of Rare, because it's so easy to upgrade anyway. Same with gold - no one has ever had their mind blown by overland gold gains. I think it's probably best to let people feel like they're getting something for turning things up a notch rather than shutting them down and tanking the feature altogether.

This thinking is probably based on a notion that it's what players are asking for here, being immersed etc. so an ask for a reward for the effort spent looks iffy. This ignores game design and how rewards are structured to reward time and effort depending on difficulty levels. As previously said by another user it's at the very least as simple as two times more exp and gold for 2 times the "time to kill" we're getting potentially or simply following a pattern we already have with difficulty and rewards to it like blue-green to purple drops.

The thing ignored also is that difficult overland option isn't made for a bunch of forum users to stop complaining, if it was to be implemented it would be a game system which would obey the game's ruleset and overall design structure. There should be incentives for new players, existing ones and for ones who they potentially want to return. They would also want existing non vet players to at least try it out same as with dungeons, pvp and trials, as a lot of people aren't even aware it's something they might potentially like - me being perfect example of it as a single player andy who bought eso to read new lore books and got baited into pvp and pve "endgame" by events, skins to hide vamp etc. and I loved it, thanks to that structure.

Understandable, and if you looked back far enough, you would see that I campaigned against rewards for increased challenge. However, do we honestly believe that it's really that big of a deal to get a slightly better bit of gear, slightly more gold and/or slightly more experience? I don't think that it is. But I do think that some people will have a problem with it and that could act as a speedbump to getting the feature implemented.

Possibly the best idea would be to start with no rewards, keep the feature in live, public testing for some time, and then when people are comfortable with it, add some minor reward. Again, it makes no difference to me whatsoever but obviously there are people who expect this sort of thing.

I mean if it went live without increased exp and gold gain, it would be a punishment to use it. Because enemies would take longer to kill but give the same exp. I really don't think it should matter if some people have an issue with vet players get the same rewards as they do.

I don't think it could be considered a punishment if it's deliberately enabled by the player, but I do think that many people would avoid it if there were no compensation involved

Yeah, it can. How else would someone be punished for using a feature?

Edit

disky wrote: »

Alternatively, put it up on PTS for a while and let people get used to the idea over there before going live.

Yes, absolutely. So people can see the modifier is only bringing vet players into parity with normal mode and not actually giving them extra stuff.

For most casual players who don't even know the forums exist, this feature would likely fly under the radar, but I for one know I would be on that as soon as possible, even without rewards. I have a backlog of years of zones worth of content I've skipped, and being able to do it for the first time without spoiling it for myself by the current level of difficulty would be very engaging for me.

As for that second point, ZOS has done something like this maybe two or three times, I think? Testing out an idea that wasn't a part of the next update to see how players feel about it. They really should do that more, as they could just do test on various different things to feel out a direction then bring those things together, polished, into a major update that would land well.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

The whole point of wanting more difficult fights is for them to be more difficult for immersion, which means the fights will take longer. The loot table is determined by what the mob is, not how long it takes any particular player to defeat it.

Also, a slider or debuff only affects the player, not the mob, so the mobs loot table is not affected.

Two scenarios:

Player A is a new level 3 ungeared character. Player B is a CP2000 fully geared character. They are both fighting the same type of mob. It takes player A longer than Player B to defeat the mob, so should they earn more rewards from it?

Player A CP2000 is a fully geared character, but doesn't have a good build or skills or experience. Player B is also CP2000 fully geared but uses a good build and rotation, and is experienced. They are both fighting the same type of mob. It takes Player A longer than Player B to defeat the mob, so should they earn more rewards from it?

The answer to all of these is no.

Aside from every single dungeon and trial, where the difficulty of the instance determines the quality of the gear, with the addition of perfected gear in trials, which isn't something I would care at all about for ZOS to bring to zones. Does it really break the bank for you that someone might get more purple tempers? More exp per mob but less exp per minute by fighting fewer but stronger enemies? How does that ruin the game for you? Doesn't ZOS ramping up zone boss difficulty to kinda-sorta address these points actually get in your way of enjoying the content? Is someone you've never meet or never will meet getting slightly better gear after a longer fight really ruin your experience more?

Also, funnily enough, a player does uniquely change the loot pool of things they touch. Ever see a random rubedite note, but inside it was iron ore? That's because a low level player touched the node but didn't take the loot, setting the node to hold iron ore until it respawns. Or how about this, a max level player and a level 3 player kill a wolf together. The max level player gets some rubedo hide scraps, and the level 3 gets rawhide scraps. They both got leather, but the game modifies loot to match the player. Similarly, a level 15 player will get level 15 gear to drop for them, and a level 30 will get level 30 gear, even if both are, say, looting the same slain delve boss or looting the same dungeon chest.

This is common place everywhere, including overland. Does that ruin your experience, knowing that someone just looted a resource near you and their champion point for doubled resource gains triggered, causing them to get 2x of a max level material while poor level 3 players nearby will only get low level mats?

Drops match players, so what is wrong with drops for combat focused players, better empowering them to enter higher difficulty content? More exp compensates for longer time to kill, please argue how a low level player would exploit this to some unfair advantage. More gold per kill, maybe, compensates for the longer time to kill and likely some additional repairs. The better quality gear helps get newer players into the more difficult content, which they're clearly aiming for by engaging with the higher difficulty, while being nothing but pocket lint for experienced players who already have that tier of upgrade mats in excess. How are any of those the thing that ruins this for you?

SilverBride

All of those examples are normal gameplay. They aren't the result of specific players being given increased rewards for fighting the same mobs as everyone else.

Why should a player be rewarded for creating a situation that they know will make fights take longer but they willingly put themselves in anyway? They chose to make the fights more difficult. There is no justification for increased rewards.

spartaxoxo

The devs want a unified playing experience. I used to think them dismissing a toggle as detrimental to that was absurd because they could just do what LOTRO did and use a modifier to ensure that players more or less get the same rewards from doing the same content. And if we all got exactly the same thing from playing the way that we like, then the problem of someone feeling forced to play a certain way for superior rewards would be a non-issue. Like, it'd be so simple.

But, now, I understand why they went the route that they did. There are players who will not like that. It's simply easier to just make everyone do the same content. I guess that's why they have chosen the route that they did. I don't think it is satisfying to anyone this way. But at least I understand it now. Guess, I must resign myself to just world bosses. I doubt anything will change. Bummer 😞

SilverBride

[Edited because I no longer feel that way.]

CP5

That, is what difficulty is? Normal gameplay? Some gameplay involves different difficulty than others? That people opt into vet dungeons or trials, face more difficult combat encounters, and get rewards modified to match it. It is just normal gameplay. If we were to do the instance thing, which I feel is best in terms of function and effort, then it would be an identical situation as to what dungeons currently offer. If we didn't, with players in the same instance having different difficulties, then it is still the exact same.

A player 'is given increased rewards for (looting the same resource node)/(fighting the same mobs)/(looting the same chest) as everyone else.' Slot champion points for more chest drops, unfair advantage? A player levels up, or puts points into a crafting passive and gets higher level upgrade materials, unfair advantage? A player does some quest and unlocks the special 3rd ingredient from dragons, unfair advantage?

Why do you even care, if the reward is the standard as it is everywhere else when it comes to dungeons and trials? Would slightly more experience for another player ruin your time? Would their pockets being lined with slightly more gold, which is likely going to be spent on repairs, ruin your time? Would their gear dropping more predominantly in purple quality by default defeat you? Are they even wearing pants? Do you even know what the players around you are doing, spending every second analyzing them, or are they simply other people existing in the same map as you? Are you driven by your desire to quest and explore the world, or is the game a competition that even such a mild tweak would compromise your ability to experience the game?

Because, if such things are a dealbreaker for you, then like spartaxoxo said, ZOS is doing what they're doing likely because this mentality exist, it'd be unfair to give players increased reward for increased effort, better to modify the content evenly for everyone! Who cares if in the long run some players start ignoring things like world bosses or public dungeons, we can't create different instances because that would divide the players, but cutting up each instance with "this is YOUR area and this is MY area" definitely doesn't divide the players, especially when the players who are supposed to be catered to with the increased difficulty aren't even focused on or drawn back for the content ZOS changes.

So, I am genuinely interested.
1.) How does another player getting more exp from a mob, after having fought them for longer than they would otherwise have to because the enemy itself was made stronger, ruin your ability to enjoy the game.
2.) How does another player getting purple gear more easily, assuming that'd be the 'gear' side of the reward itemization being standardized with every other area of the game, ruin your ability to enjoy the game.
3.) Would you prefer ZOS to continue chopping up zones to make pockets of "well here's the difficult content, so be happy" at the expense of the type of content you enjoy?

disky

CP5 wrote: »

So, I am genuinely interested.
1.) How does another player getting more exp from a mob, after having fought them for longer than they would otherwise have to because the enemy itself was made stronger, ruin your ability to enjoy the game.
2.) How does another player getting purple gear more easily, assuming that'd be the 'gear' side of the reward itemization being standardized with every other area of the game, ruin your ability to enjoy the game.
3.) Would you prefer ZOS to continue chopping up zones to make pockets of "well here's the difficult content, so be happy" at the expense of the type of content you enjoy?

I just want to say that I think all of these questions are totally valid and I agree with your stance. I think worrying about what others do and the rewards they get is silly, especially considering that this system is already commonplace in other parts of the game. I think that appropriate compensation makes sense. My only reason for opposing any kind of rewards changes (especially during the initial implementation) is that ZOS is clearly wary of community backlash, and this is demonstrably a point of contention for at least a certain element of the community. I just think it's better for everyone if we get the feature in, with as little controversy as possible, and then worry about rewards once people are comfortable with it. Over time, the majority of overland players would probably wonder why they weren't there in the first place.

SilverBride

They said that they do not want to split the playerbase quite awhile ago. And they said that they have no major changes planned for overland. And they said that Bastion Nymics was one answer to overland diffiuclty. And they said that it's not as easy as just flipping a switch.

These are the reasons nothing else has been done so far. It has nothing to do with my view on increased rewards that hadn't even been discussed for the past few thousand posts until someone brought it up again yesterday.

spartaxoxo

Uh, it is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult. There is a ton of work, and then as Lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you're not going to get anything out of it why do it, you know? The satisfaction is there sure, but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time.So like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3 of the game was never played by players, so we changed it.

They have cited not knowing how to incentivize it as a reason. I used to think this was ridiculous because you just adjust exp to ensure we'd get the same coin and exp as regular questing and it would be fine. All I wanted was an engaging, fun, and immersive way to level my characters. I wasn't looking for extra mats or mounts or anything fancy. I just it wanted it to be the same as doing the quests on normal.

But, apparently, the devs were right. A portion of the playerbase would be angry even if all we got was the exact same rewards as they do. And there's players that wouldn't engage with it if there was literally nothing. There's no point. They'll never do it. There's no safe options because they aren't going to release content with literally no incentive and anything they do add as one will be a problem. I thought they just didn't get that most of us aren't looking for anything fancy. But, it was me that didn't get it. I didn't get that literally anything they add would be a problem.

disky

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Uh, it is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult. There is a ton of work, and then as Lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you're not going to get anything out of it why do it, you know? The satisfaction is there sure, but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time.So like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3 of the game was never played by players, so we changed it.

They have cited not knowing how to incentivize it as a reason. I used to think this was ridiculous because you just adjust exp to ensure we'd get the same coin and exp as regular questing and it would be fine. All I wanted was an engaging, fun, and immersive way to level my characters. I wasn't looking for extra mats or mounts or anything fancy. I just it wanted it to be the same as doing the quests on normal.

But, apparently, the devs were right. A portion of the playerbase would be angry even if all we got was the exact same rewards as they do. And there's players that wouldn't engage with it if there was literally nothing. There's no point. They'll never do it. There's no safe options because they aren't going to release content with literally no incentive and anything they do add as one will be a problem. I thought they just didn't get that most of us aren't looking for anything fancy. But, it was me that didn't get it. I didn't get that literally anything they add would be a problem.

Since we're the ones who want this feature, the onus is ours to accept the controversial nature of it. Over time, I believe any potential controversy would diminish and you'd get what you want. But the most important thing is that it happens.

Muizer

SilverBride wrote: »

There is no punishment by not rewarding a player for purposely making their fights take longer.

To argue players should not be rewarded more for greater effort is the same as arguing they should be awarded the same for less. The ultimate consequence is one where everybody is given the same 'rewards' regardless of what they do (and don't do) in the game. You're challenging the very concept of rewards in gaming, which in any case is all about making things purposefully difficult for yourself.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

They said that they do not want to split the playerbase quite awhile ago. And they said that they have no major changes planned for overland. And they said that Bastion Nymics was one answer to overland diffiuclty. And they said that it's not as easy as just flipping a switch.

These are the reasons nothing else has been done so far. It has nothing to do with my view on increased rewards that hadn't even been discussed for the past few thousand posts until someone brought it up again yesterday.

The point isn't "you think these things, and it'll never happen until you're convinced" and more "people at ZOS share the same thoughts and here are the issues with those points." I mentioned how cutting up zones divides the player base more than instances would. These world boss changes are rather major for many players. Bastion Nymics fail to engage players in the quest and exploration of the zone, because players like myself here have said we want to enjoy the world, not to be told to go to a corner and be happy.

And it isn't as easy as just flipping a switch, that's why it's a job. It takes time and effort, time and effort they're wasting on these half measures rather than anything meaningful. It'd be better if they spent a lot of time on one major update, rather than spending a little time on this, then more time on that, leaving a trail of soiled content in their wake as players simply choose to not engage with it.

Just because they've said things in the past doesn't mean things can't change, and things could change for the better for everyone, including you, if ZOS actually read this thread and took to heart the things we've said, and maybe while they're at it posting something here to show they're listening.

SilverBride

Muizer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There is no punishment by not rewarding a player for purposely making their fights take longer.

To argue players should not be rewarded more for greater effort is the same as arguing they should be awarded the same for less. The ultimate consequence is one where everybody is given the same 'rewards' regardless of what they do (and don't do) in the game. You're challenging the very concept of rewards in gaming, which in any case is all about making things purposefully difficult for yourself.

Players asking for more difficulty have said they want it for immersion... so the bosses feel like the enemy they were hyped up to be. But now they want increased rewards for getting what they asked for.

It's not less rewards unless they actually change the mobs to give less experience and drops for debuffed players. The mob hasn't changed with these difficulty options, the player has.

The fact that a debuffed player can't kill as many mobs and make the same total amount of experience in the same timeframe as without using the debuff is exactly what we expect. A low level player also can't make as much experience as a higher level player fighting the same mob in the same timeframe, but they don't get extra compensation.

If the debuffed character is concerned with how much experience they are gaining they can use an experience potion or scroll just like we can now.

spartaxoxo

Low level characters are buffed up so that they can do as well as the average CP 160 player.

SilverBride

"With One Tamriel every zone is effectively set to CP 160 difficulty. This means that all mobs will have CP 160 equivalent strength in damage and resistance. For all players below CP 160, ESO will use the Battle Level system which intelligently scales the important stats of your character up to be able to compete with these enemies."

That is how it works for the current overland difficulty. A debuff would alter this to increase the difficulty for the player which is what the player using it is wanting to happen. More difficult fights are going to take longer. If a player doesn't want longer fights they shouldn't use a debuff.

spartaxoxo

Yes, so they have already addressed low level characters not getting equivalent rewards by buffing them up.

Equal rewards is too much. I get your stance. They won't release it without incentives because no content in the game works that way. The same rewards as casuals is just too much.