Overland Content Feedback Thread

SilverBride

Theist_VII wrote: »

Players were hyper-focused on Cyrodiil when the game released, and everyone wanted to get to Veteran Rank 14 or 16 to PvP with their friends with the huge advantages of being that level.

I didn't PvP nor did any of my friends, so that was not our main focus.

Theist_VII

SilverBride wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Players were hyper-focused on Cyrodiil when the game released, and everyone wanted to get to Veteran Rank 14 or 16 to PvP with their friends with the huge advantages of being that level.

I didn't PvP nor did any of my friends, so that was not our main focus.

Yet the overwhelming majority did. All of the trailers for the game advertised to a PvP audience, in case you’ve forgotten what those were, here they are…

https://youtu.be/0jNT5cMwxw0?si=X13q3ZdjDrNOiHUC
https://youtu.be/DVMNQozxqos?si=JHkSozranH5WXY2K
https://youtu.be/MySC13H_2cE?si=RbEo7UxVG0VL7ng4
https://youtu.be/EzhyLuXzNZY?si=W1cVWnfBGkIzI9Tk
Here’s the supercut.

https://youtu.be/qLdYM70QNdo?si=N6Ne6Pri2DVo3Eei
Were we playing different games? lol

When you look at the way the factions progress, they all push you to Cyrodiil, the center of the map. Everything about this game screamed PvP, there weren’t even Veteran Dungeons on launch… so yes, most people saw Overland as an artificial barrier into getting to Cyrodiil. A necessary grind to actually play the part of the game that they enjoy.

When they added farmable sets to each region, people started enjoying the zones, it had nothing to do with difficulty.

Edit; What a masterclass in Cinematics these were, it’s honestly surprising that we haven’t gotten an animated series yet.

spartaxoxo

I don't want to struggle to random wolves or whatever, but do want to struggle to bosses and their highest ranked subordinates.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

What happens to trash in many cool fantasy stories

But bosses won't be pushed around like trash


The trash mobs shouldn't be hard. It's the elite mobs and quest bosses that need to be more challenging. Fodder should be easily decimated. It adds to the power fantasy and makes playing less tedious.

Hard to buy your guy as one of the most important heroes of Tamriel and you struggle against some lame bandit or grunt of some cult. But Molag Bal and Rada al-Saran shouldn't be easy. They are world destroyers. Quite literally, world ending levels of threat. They should be tough.

spartaxoxo

Theist_VII wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Players were hyper-focused on Cyrodiil when the game released, and everyone wanted to get to Veteran Rank 14 or 16 to PvP with their friends with the huge advantages of being that level.

I didn't PvP nor did any of my friends, so that was not our main focus.

Yet the overwhelming majority did. All of the trailers for the game advertised to a PvP audience, in case you’ve forgotten what those were, here they are…

Those trailers advertised both PvE and PvP. Literally show a dark anchor very quickly and Mannimarco skulking around. And most people didn't bother with PvP. The dungeons were plenty hard for people back then. And they had already said more vet PvE was coming before the game launched as something that simply needed a little extra time. It was the first big update.

The overwhelming majority of people quit rather than PvP. That's why they had to relaunch the game.

SilverBride

Theist_VII wrote: »

When you look at the way the factions progress, they all push you to Cyrodiil, the center of the map. Everything about this game screamed PvP, there weren’t even Veteran Dungeons on launch… so yes, most people saw Overland as an artificial barrier into getting to Cyrodiil. A necessary grind to actually play the part of the game that they enjoy.

When they added farmable sets to each region, people started enjoying the zones, it had nothing to do with difficulty.

I don't doubt that a lot of players main focus was PvP, but there were many others who were playing for the story. And difficulty was the issue for many. It's the reason many of my friends gave for why they were leaving and the main reason I quit playing and didn't come back until One Tamriel.

Theist_VII

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Players were hyper-focused on Cyrodiil when the game released, and everyone wanted to get to Veteran Rank 14 or 16 to PvP with their friends with the huge advantages of being that level.

I didn't PvP nor did any of my friends, so that was not our main focus.

Yet the overwhelming majority did. All of the trailers for the game advertised to a PvP audience, in case you’ve forgotten what those were, here they are…

Those trailers advertised both PvE and PvP. Literally show a dark anchor very quickly and Mannimarco skulking around. And most people didn't bother with PvP. The dungeons were plenty hard for people back then. And they had already said more vet PvE was coming before the game launched as something that simply needed a little extra time. It was the first big update.

The overwhelming majority of people quit rather than PvP. That's why they had to relaunch the game.

Those trailers advertised the three factions fighting over Cyrodiil.

That’s about as clean cut as it gets, sure there were monsters in the way, but they were fighting in Cyrodiil, for their factions.

Now for reasons why people quit the game, you can interpret it however you see fit, but ultimately it could have been for any number of things. One major complaint was animation cancelling, another was the combat altogether, then there was a graphics issue where the game looked worse than Skyrim, people felt that the game was a cheaper experience, they hated waiting around for bosses to spawn because people were farming them for 1-3 gold coins to drop in order to save up a few thousand for a mount, something you could conveniently just buy in the store.

Maybe it was the terrible performance drops following the lighting patch?

Don’t even get me going on the idea to faction lock PvE regions, especially when you hit vet 1 and realized that when you got to Cadwell’s Silver you weren’t playing the story from your factions perspective invading the others. They lazily copy/pasted higher numbers over the other regions and put you in an entirely new instance of the SAME story you would experience in minutes if you had just made a new character in another faction.

Either way, the game was terrible on launch, and it does it an injustice to try to blame the failure on one thing you don’t like, when the whole house was burning.

spartaxoxo

Theist_VII wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Players were hyper-focused on Cyrodiil when the game released, and everyone wanted to get to Veteran Rank 14 or 16 to PvP with their friends with the huge advantages of being that level.

I didn't PvP nor did any of my friends, so that was not our main focus.

Yet the overwhelming majority did. All of the trailers for the game advertised to a PvP audience, in case you’ve forgotten what those were, here they are…

Those trailers advertised both PvE and PvP. Literally show a dark anchor very quickly and Mannimarco skulking around. And most people didn't bother with PvP. The dungeons were plenty hard for people back then. And they had already said more vet PvE was coming before the game launched as something that simply needed a little extra time. It was the first big update.

The overwhelming majority of people quit rather than PvP. That's why they had to relaunch the game.

Those trailers advertised the three factions fighting over Cyrodiil.

That’s about as clean cut as it gets, sure there were monsters in the way, but they were fighting in Cyrodiil, for their factions.

The fight over Cyrodiil was the plot of both PvE and PvP. They fight monsters, a dark anchor is showcased, and Mannimarco. That's all PvE. They also show sieging, the player proxies fighting one another, and keep taking. That's PvP.

It was always advertised as a game with both PvE and PvE and that you could play the way you wanted.

It started as a game for both and it remains a game for both to this day.

Theist_VII

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It started as a game for both and it remains a game for both to this day.

Cyrodiil destructible bridges say hi.

They were part of the last update to PvP that the game got, more than half a decade ago, unless you count Tales of Tribute.

PvP stopped being a core value of the team a long time ago, when they realized it was much easier to develop and then monetize PvE content.

Perhaps that will change come Update 44, but who knows? Maybe the update will be Siege Ladders and AP Tri-Pots. lol

spartaxoxo

Theist_VII wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It started as a game for both and it remains a game for both to this day.

Cyrodiil destructible bridges say hi.

They were part of the last update to PvP that the game got, more than half a decade ago, unless you count Tales of Tribute.

PvP stopped being a core value of the team a long time ago, when they realized it was much easier to develop and then monetize, PvE content.

Perhaps that will change come Update 44, but who knows? Maybe the update will be Siege Ladders and AP Tri-Pots. lol

They said they were not going to work on new content for PvP to work on performance and then the pandemic hit. Now that they've finished replacing the servers and tried and failed various performance fixes, they are reaffirming that PvP is part of the game. And the next major update will be new PvP content that has nothing to do with Cyrodiil. They already gave us that much but no other hints what it will be.

Theist_VII

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It started as a game for both and it remains a game for both to this day.

Cyrodiil destructible bridges say hi.

They were part of the last update to PvP that the game got, more than half a decade ago, unless you count Tales of Tribute.

PvP stopped being a core value of the team a long time ago, when they realized it was much easier to develop and then monetize, PvE content.

Perhaps that will change come Update 44, but who knows? Maybe the update will be Siege Ladders and AP Tri-Pots. lol

They said they were not going to work on new content for PvP to work on performance and then the pandemic hit. Now that they've finished replacing the servers and tried and failed various performance issues, they are reaffirming that PvP is part of the game. And the next major update will be new PvP content that has nothing to do with Cyrodiil. They already gave us that much but no other hints what it will be.

Nice! What if the update is access to an Armory Station in Battlegrounds? /s

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

As many people here have allready said, its not about challange for the sake of challenge, its about immersion. It's about the decisions we make and there consequences.

Spending 10 times as long to kill a bear between the player and their quest objective isn't going to make anything more immersive.

Probably not. But, being able to
- kill the bear fast because you build your character to be a powerfull mage or warrior is more immersive than killing it fast because you'r simply a god.

I have built my characters to be powerful Sorcerers and Arcanists and Nightblades and Dragonknights and Necromancers and Templars, so they should be able to kill a bear in the way of their objective.

I agree 100%. If that's the idea you have in your head for your characters then you should be able to live that fantasy, and thankfully you can. But for those of us who think differently about this, who believe that maybe we're not quite as godlike, we don't get to experience the overland game in a way that suits us. Which is why choice matters.

spartaxoxo

Theist_VII wrote: »

Nice! What if the update is access to an Armory Station in Battlegrounds? /s

I know you're joking but it's going to be a whole system. I suspect if it isn't popular, they'll just throw in the towel. But that's just my speculation.

colossalvoids

I'm deeply concerned about new PvP features since class reps and similar channels have dried out.

Muizer

SilverBride wrote: »

Both.

Now I can be the strong hero they tell me I am. I should be able to easily tear through overland mobs.

I'd have thought that thrill would wear off rapidly. Do you not find overland mob encounters tedious?

SilverBride wrote: »

I played before One Tamriel and completed the veteran level zones on one character and never did it again because I got tired of dying to a pack of wolves, or bears, and let's not forget River Trolls. It was not fun.

Back then zone difficulty was balanced on the assumption that players went through the base-game, including Silver and Gold, completely and in order. If you did that, or grinded the equivalent XP, difficulty was pretty much constant. ZOS changed it because it made attracting new players with expansion zones difficult.

SilverBride

Muizer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Now I can be the strong hero they tell me I am. I should be able to easily tear through overland mobs.

I'd have thought that thrill would wear off rapidly. Do you not find overland mob encounters tedious?

Not at all. I focus on the quest rather than spend time on trash mobs. I only bother with the ones that are in the way of my objective. And there is enough time between doing the zones on new alts that a lot of it seems fresh to me.

Muizer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I played before One Tamriel and completed the veteran level zones on one character and never did it again because I got tired of dying to a pack of wolves, or bears, and let's not forget River Trolls. It was not fun.

Back then zone difficulty was balanced on the assumption that players went through the base-game, including Silver and Gold, completely and in order. If you did that, or grinded the equivalent XP, difficulty was pretty much constant. ZOS changed it because it made attracting new players with expansion zones difficult.

I did do the zones in order and I found the veteran zones difficult. No matter why they introduced One Tamriel the fact is that the zone mobs and the story bosses did have their difficulty reduced by a lot.

Muizer

SilverBride wrote: »

I focus on the quest rather than spend time on trash mobs. I only bother with the ones that are in the way of my objective.

Not sure I understand. I'm trying to figure out whether you like those encounters as they are and that the game experience would be diminished if they were more difficult, but also if they were less difficult ( or not there at all) OR that you don't actually enjoy the mob encounters at all and that therefore you're content that they are easy to cut through.

SilverBride

Muizer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I focus on the quest rather than spend time on trash mobs. I only bother with the ones that are in the way of my objective.

Not sure I understand. I'm trying to figure out whether you like those encounters as they are and that the game experience would be diminished if they were more difficult, but also if they were less difficult ( or not there at all) OR that you don't actually enjoy the mob encounters at all and that therefore you're content that they are easy to cut through.

I don't just run around overland fighting trash mobs. I only take the time to encounter the ones in my way. I am fine with the difficulty they currently are because I can quickly disperse them and continue with my quest objective, which is why I'm in overland.

I would not like if the trash mobs were more difficult because they would take longer to defeat and slow down my questing progress, and I do enjoy seeing them drop quickly. I find it satisfying and pleasurable.

CP5

That raises a good point. The power fantasy of easily overpowering large numbers of enemies can be satisfying for many players. But for other players, when we're told by a panicked villager that they're under attack, and we sneeze in the zip code of the enemy, and they all fall over dead, I personally don't feel like a hero. I feel like I'm in a world full of npcs who either couldn't be bothered to save themselves, or are intentionally trying to trick others into taking out the trash for them. Why bother even having the enemies there if they're only for show? Why bother having the boss enemy fight if the fight delays progresses to the next dialogue beat and quest turn in?

For example, I enjoyed Oblivion greatly. I remember going on these binges where, while I would normally avoid Oblivion gates, from time to time I would intentionally hunt them down for hours. The fights outside the gate, between city guards and deadra, the fight through oblivion, with the fire towers and exploding mines, and even the hostile plants. The run through the tower and the fight in the top room. The story of closing an Oblivion gate is a story about combat, about the fight against both numerous and powerful enemies. If they were rendered little more than cardboard cutouts, the story of that Oblivion gate would be ruined for me, because it is that combat sequence that defines the threat that the deadra pose to the world, giving context to the whole Oblivion crisis.

Looking into ESO even, I remember old Doshia, her second phase, the insane fight being caught off guard by my first harvester. And it primed the main quest and fighter's guild quest perfectly. Doshia acted as a player's first taste of what the threat facing the world was, giving the stakes actual weight.

I'm here to engage with the game, it has gameplay, and that gameplay includes combat. Stories can be based on many things, including their combat, and for many players the combat impacts their ability to enjoy the story. Overland, being the only area in the game where there isn't any sort of option on how you can engage with that combat ruins the enjoyment of the story by robbing it of any sense of scales, stakes, or purpose.

I don't want to be told to go to our corner, dungeons, trials, and so on, and I don't want ZOS to keep half-heartedly cutting up overland content to try to appease me like they have with world bosses, but unless they do something decisive then what they've done with Gold Road will likely be the direction they continue, failing to give either group any complete sense of satisfaction. I'll say it again, instances, already being used everywhere including Overland, and being used almost everywhere to curate content for different groups of players varied interest, is still the best option, and I believe that any effort less than something like that will simply be a waste of time at best.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

I'll say it again, instances, already being used everywhere including Overland, and being used almost everywhere to curate content for different groups of players varied interest, is still the best option, and I believe that any effort less than something like that will simply be a waste of time at best.

I believe it would be a waste of time to create veteran levels of all the zones that can only be completed once per character. I seriously doubt that players would go back and just kill trash mobs once the story has been completed. These zones would be dead.

TaSheen

If ZOS decides to do something with overland difficulty (in the nature of increasing it either across the board, or with some "slider type" option) other than what they're doing now, they're not going to care what any of us thinks.

*shrug* We'll see what we see eventually. Or.... we won't see any change at all. Arguing the same positions over and over isn't of much value....

CP5

TaSheen wrote: »

If ZOS decides to do something with overland difficulty (in the nature of increasing it either across the board, or with some "slider type" option) other than what they're doing now, they're not going to care what any of us thinks.

*shrug* We'll see what we see eventually. Or.... we won't see any change at all. Arguing the same positions over and over isn't of much value....

Exactly, but we have already seen what they're doing. Juiced up world bosses, likely a similar story for public dungeons, it just depends on how much ZOS will do that before feeling content that they've done enough.

TaSheen

CP5 wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

If ZOS decides to do something with overland difficulty (in the nature of increasing it either across the board, or with some "slider type" option) other than what they're doing now, they're not going to care what any of us thinks.

*shrug* We'll see what we see eventually. Or.... we won't see any change at all. Arguing the same positions over and over isn't of much value....

Exactly, but we have already seen what they're doing. Juiced up world bosses, likely a similar story for public dungeons, it just depends on how much ZOS will do that before feeling content that they've done enough.

Yep. I've already had to stop with the zone quests as there's just no way I can kill the boss(es) at the end. And I never did world bosses or dungeons. But there's still a lot I find fun, and I'll just keep on keepin' on until I can't any more!

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

If ZOS decides to do something with overland difficulty (in the nature of increasing it either across the board, or with some "slider type" option) other than what they're doing now, they're not going to care what any of us thinks.

*shrug* We'll see what we see eventually. Or.... we won't see any change at all. Arguing the same positions over and over isn't of much value....

Exactly, but we have already seen what they're doing. Juiced up world bosses, likely a similar story for public dungeons, it just depends on how much ZOS will do that before feeling content that they've done enough.

It has been the same for Public Dungeons. The group event boss in the Silorn Public Dungeon is so difficult that players are having a hard time finding anyone who will group for it.

Every World Boss and Story Boss and and now Public Dungeon group event Boss has gotten progressively more difficult, starting with High Isle. Unless we tell them that this is NOT what anyone wants I'm afraid this trend will keep going.

CP5

Well, hopefully like with the changes with arctic blast coming up, ZOS will realize that sometimes the best way to win is to just not do anything at all. Better the content remain as is than for them to keep mangling things without a decisive goal.

TaSheen

Oh, too true! But I suppose it does look like making moves, whether anyone wants what turns up or not.

Muizer

SilverBride wrote: »

I believe it would be a waste of time to create veteran levels of all the zones that can only be completed once per character. I seriously doubt that players would go back and just kill trash mobs once the story has been completed. These zones would be dead.

I'm not an advocate of veteran zones, but if the extra time spent in a veteran zone were somewhat compensated by higher / better rewards then the veteran zone would definitely be my go-to place for things like harvesting mats.

SilverBride

Muizer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I believe it would be a waste of time to create veteran levels of all the zones that can only be completed once per character. I seriously doubt that players would go back and just kill trash mobs once the story has been completed. These zones would be dead.

I'm not an advocate of veteran zones, but if the extra time spent in a veteran zone were somewhat compensated by higher / better rewards then the veteran zone would definitely be my go-to place for things like harvesting mats.

That is just one reason I don't want veteran zones. It is not fair to those that are unable to survive veteran mobs to get better rewards for an increased difficulty they asked for. If immersion is the reason for wanting more difficulty, then that is the reward.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I believe it would be a waste of time to create veteran levels of all the zones that can only be completed once per character. I seriously doubt that players would go back and just kill trash mobs once the story has been completed. These zones would be dead.

I'm not an advocate of veteran zones, but if the extra time spent in a veteran zone were somewhat compensated by higher / better rewards then the veteran zone would definitely be my go-to place for things like harvesting mats.

That is just one reason I don't want veteran zones. It is not fair to those that are unable to survive veteran mobs to get better rewards for an increased difficulty they asked for. If immersion is the reason for wanting more difficulty, then that is the reward.

That's, dungeons, and trials, as they currently are? I personally don't care for better rewards, but the standard established everywhere is, you have normal and vet, with vet giving purple quality gear rather than blue, and exp drops are increased to compensate for longer fight times. On top of this, most people doing overland content probably don't care about what other people have, and often don't have a strong desire to get 'the best' stuff themselves either.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

That is just one reason I don't want veteran zones. It is not fair to those that are unable to survive veteran mobs to get better rewards for an increased difficulty they asked for. If immersion is the reason for wanting more difficulty, then that is the reward.

That's, dungeons, and trials, as they currently are? I personally don't care for better rewards, but the standard established everywhere is, you have normal and vet, with vet giving purple quality gear rather than blue, and exp drops are increased to compensate for longer fight times. On top of this, most people doing overland content probably don't care about what other people have, and often don't have a strong desire to get 'the best' stuff themselves either.

Dungeons and trials have always had multiple difficulty levels because they are group content that offer challenges beyond overland. That is very different content from the questing and leveling experience of overland.

If the real reason for wanting increased difficulty is immersion then there is no reason to give better rewards for it.

CP5

Content is content, and so long as difficulty is a factor, that difficulty factors into the expectations and rewards. Overland isn't a unique thing, it's an environment that contains different things to do, combat and quest being chief among them. Dungeons and trials each have a quest, but then are also combat. Same with Cyrodiil, just adding in a heavy focus on large scale PVP. It is the norm that when difficulty is increased, rewards are increased to match what players put in. Exp rewards aren't even good enough to tempt players, since as I've mentioned before, Black Rose Prison on normal, resetting at the first boss, not after, is a good way to get exp, as doing the same on vet isn't worth the additional hassle, and fighting the boss isn't worth the time, if exp is what you're after.

So as is, exp is better earned from normal difficulty content, since doing a lot of easy task quickly is better than doing fewer task over time, so that'd leave higher quality loot drops being 'the thing.' But seriously, if someone wants, say, good jewelry, would they be better off doing 3 normal dolmens, getting a random quality piece from each that they'd likely decon, or doing 1 harder dolmen for a, lets say 100% chance of getting a purple drop. Players like me have more upgrade mats than we'll ever need to upgrade stuff to purple, that's a non-issue. For a newer player who might challenge themselves they're now getting brought up to speed, they're clearly interested in challenging content, and now they're able to get good gear without needing to do group content first, able to learn and gear up on their own time. And for players who don't do the harder content, would they even be any wiser? Do they care if the random person next to them is wearing all golded out gear?

What does it matter what other people get? Do the players who are doing overland as is actually care what other people get? Would someone who only casually plays ESO (which no one on the forums is a casual player, being here is an act of commitment to the game much higher than many players will ever strive for) even care about what their own character has?

Discussing this in a circle doesn't accomplish much, but these points are likely things ZOS is mulling over, and I can imagine that some of them are like you in expressing these concerns, but please elaborate on why you feel that if this sort of reward was given, how would it negatively impact people who wouldn't use the harder difficulty?