Overland Content Feedback Thread

KapiteinBoterham

With loyal players i mean players who also notices that this game has a glaring issue with story/quest bosses feeling too weak. Here's an example:

Not loyal player: "Another super important bad guy defeated in just two flurry hits, i am so pro! This is because i am so good and not because i am ignorant to the fact that i can better my build. Let's skip all the dialogue and onto the next zone!"
"This boss is too hard even though i do not use good gear/potions/foods, better quit this game because it sucks."

Loyal players reaction: "Awh the boss died before they could finish their sentence/special move, i really wonder what they were going to say/do. This feels really underwhelming with every boss i encounter especially since the writing builds them up to be very powerful and they end up being just as strong as a Summerset mudcrab."
"What a wasted potiential, is every quest-boss going to be like this? (yes) I dont feel any sense of progression or challenge better play another RPG for that".

I just mean to say that ignorance is bliss and can be very harmful to other people's experience. We have to share Tamriel together and i notice the difficulty/non-engagement is turning off many new players. I DONT think the players that are afraid of difficulty need to "get good" to belong in ESO; I think they need to embrace the fact that just the quest/story bosses are factually broken because of their low HP. And as we all know a broken game is not fun.

Maybe i should have written "story-loyal"? Hope that this clears things up!

erdYrrson

In a way it does and I don't support your position in general and that explanation one bit.

spartaxoxo

KapiteinBoterham wrote: »

Not loyal player: Another super important bad guy defeated in just two flurry hits, i am so pro! This is because i am so good and not because i am ignorant to the fact that i can better my build. Let's skip all the dialogue and onto the next zone!

I enjoy the story mode exactly as it is sometimes. Sometimes I want to just enjoy the story like a walking sim. Other times I want the combat to be more engaging in the story. It depends on my mood really. Which is why a toggle I can turn on and off would be great.

I can solo many vet dungeons. I have flawless conqueror, undying song, vet dlc dungeon skins, some vet dlc trials completes, I am currently on the solo leaderboard for IA both weekly and all-time.

Is my build good enough to have the opinion that I enjoy it and to be a loyal player? Or would I need to wait until I'm good enough for God Slayer? How good of a player do you have to be before you can enjoy the story and still be a loyal player?

KapiteinBoterham

This thread is so depressing its just a black hole for all the complaints about overland that will never ever get adressed (grim focus permaglow flashbacks).

My thread just got shutdown even though i tried my best to explain that this concerns a specific issue and not the entirity of overland content...

Ill just be leaving this here and wish you guys a happy new year!

Creating a toggle would take the devs extra time and resources, not something they are keen to do.

Just a little exta HP won't hurt; You would spend 5-10 seconds extra at a story/quest boss. But in exchange you get so much back:

- A satisfying bossfight to end the zone story that has been building up
- Story related voice lines (already in the game, but bosses die too fast to be able to say them)
- Bosses getting the chance to use their unique moves/attacks (if i were an animator of one of these moves i would not like it if the enemy constantly died before they could show off the animation)
- increased playerbase due to less people getting bored by questing (and whatever else positives that come with that)

I hope i can make you see that this solution is just a small price to pay (for some) to increase the gameplay experience for many!

Kendaric

TaSheen wrote: »

By the time I got through the Ascendant Magus, I couldn't uncramp my fingers and wrists without soaking them in a sinkful of hot water.

It's okay though really - I have other things I enjoy, and I can just pretend to myself that I did the whole bit. The rewards are really never anything I'm much interested in anyway. But it's fallacious to say "everyone can blow by the story bosses they're so easy" - because I can't.

The Ascendant Magus took me 6 tries to take down and I'll never do High Isle again because of that fight. Was it fun and satisfying? No, I hated every second of it and I was pretty close to just uninstalling ESO because of that.

Granted, I used a new character (as I always do for a new chapter) and I don't apply my CP until level 50. My regular characters would probably have had less problems but I still wouldn't have found the fight to be fun.

The last story/chapter boss I could defeat without too much trouble was King Svargrim in Greymoor. Haven't tried Vandacia in Blackwood as I wasn't too keen on the story and won't even try whoever we have to fight in Necrom.

TaSheen

I'm fine if that's an OPTION for those "loyal players". I'm not fine if it's across the board, non-optional. I don't NEED any more issues getting through quests and story bosses.

Since I actually have very little use for combat in this game (or any other now really), I'll just be ignoring quest bosses I guess. I do not find any of it fun - as far as I'm concerned, I don't care two hoots if the boss has VA lines (hate VA to begin with) I never hear, and mechanics I never see....

valenwood_vegan

I personally disagree with a non-optional increase in story boss difficulty, though I would actually love to see an optional challenge mode of some kind for these bosses.

But regardless, if the increased difficulty was just making them into a high hp damage-sponge, well that's not my idea of fun, that's just tedious and boring - I think it would need to be something more like the normal vs. vet vs. hm treatment that dungeons get. And optional.

Not everyone wants to be sweaty every time they log in. Not everyone has the same abilities / interests / goals / equipment (as in pc / internet connection) / time to commit when playing the game.

Though I'm unsure whether my 15k hours played and long list of vet dungeon and arena achievements would make me loyal enough to offer such an opinion?

KapiteinBoterham

I just can't stop myself from replying to these responses...

"I'm fine if that's an OPTION for those "loyal players". I'm not fine if it's across the board, non-optional. I don't NEED any more issues getting through quests and story bosses." "I personally disagree with a non-optional increase"

Like mentioned in my previous comment: Creating a toggle would take the devs extra time and resources, not something they are keen to do. Ask for too much and you might get nothing...

"Since I actually have very little use for combat in this game (or any other now really), I'll just be ignoring quest bosses I guess. I do not find any of it fun - as far as I'm concerned, I don't care two hoots if the boss has VA lines (hate VA to begin with) I never hear, and mechanics I never see.... "

This is not something a very loyal player would say in my book. Replies like these are why this thread is now almost 200 pages long, two years old and why there is never going to be any change. It must be very tiring for the developers/community managers to wade through all the back and forth to look for solid constructive critism.

Sometimes i even think that is the purpose of the people that do not agree with you, to make the thread so convoluted that the real problems will never get adressed. How hard is it to be nice for eachother and respect someone complaints? Anyhoo this is enough screaming into the void for me. Lets hope the game keeps expanding for the better! HAPPY NEW YEAR GUYS!

TaSheen

Well, I'm hopeful that my new gaming rig (when I get it set up) will help me some with part of my issues. Guess I'll find out. I will never be very happy about combat in games though. Truthfully, I never was.... The fact that one must kill mobs for XP has always annoyed and disappointed me.

Back when I ran AD&D pencil and paper scenarios for the kids (my daughter and her friends), most of the gameplay was concentrated on everything BUT combat. Secrets, diplomacy, peaceful overthrows, exploration, politics, sneaking and finding....

Biafra

I have only one request for overland: Make Nirncrux drop much, much more in Craglorn. Despite daily slogging through Craglorn, the mining runs, and a PETA animal shelter's worth of welwa slaughtering in 2023, I was only able to harvest a grand total of 5 Nirncrux in all of 2023.

KapiteinBoterham

@TaSheen Completely unrelated: If you want a break from combat games i really suggest Telltale games, a visual novel (Phoenix Wright/Layton games are awesome) or adventure games in general (think Escape from Monkey island/broken sword).

Dont forget about ESO though, would be a shame to lose you as a player because of such a small change in the gameplay!

TaSheen

Biafra wrote: »

I have only one request for overland: Make Nirncrux drop much, much more in Craglorn. Despite daily slogging through Craglorn, the mining runs, and a PETA animal shelter's worth of welwa slaughtering in 2023, I was only able to harvest a grand total of 5 Nirncrux in all of 2023.

Yeah, the dearth of nirncrux is pretty sad. I've been playing since 2017 - with three accounts - yet the total number I've ever had is less than 50 across all three accounts, both PC megaservers.

vsrs_au

Biafra wrote: »

I have only one request for overland: Make Nirncrux drop much, much more in Craglorn. Despite daily slogging through Craglorn, the mining runs, and a PETA animal shelter's worth of welwa slaughtering in 2023, I was only able to harvest a grand total of 5 Nirncrux in all of 2023.

You were very unlucky, then. The drop rate for nirncrux is **roughly** 1/200 for potent and 1/100 for fortified, and can be found in various crafting nodes (cloth, ore) and from some of the animals. Instead of fighting the welwa and clearing the mines, just try farming the cloth/ore nodes throughout the zone, it works well for me. I have about 60 fortified and 40 potent, and that's from about a year of casual farming (e.g. farming while I'm doing other activities, such as the farming-related endeavours).

Drammanoth

Guys, loyal or not, wouldn't it be better to have some pocket dimensions of Oblivion open, smaller size than in Blackwood / the Deadlands so that we could fight a stronger version of a WB, like we have those Havocrels?

The Overland would remain untouched for people who enjoy it, and those wishing some challenge could slip into the crevice and battle the WB

Alinhbo_Tyaka

KapiteinBoterham wrote: »

This thread is so depressing its just a black hole for all the complaints about overland that will never ever get adressed (grim focus permaglow flashbacks).



- snip -

Creating a toggle would take the devs extra time and resources, not something they are keen to do.


- snip -

We have no idea what ZOS is keen to do and it is unlikely we ever will until some solution shows up in a future patch (assuming one does). I would like to think they would rather provide a complete solution rather than a quick hack. A toggle/slider would get a better response from the player base. It would also be less likely to break the game for players that like the way the game the way it is should something go wrong in the implementation.

erdYrrson

Drammanoth wrote: »

Guys, loyal or not, wouldn't it be better to have some pocket dimensions of Oblivion open, smaller size than in Blackwood / the Deadlands so that we could fight a stronger version of a WB, like we have those Havocrels?

The Overland would remain untouched for people who enjoy it, and those wishing some challenge could slip into the crevice and battle the WB

Infinite Archive?

spartaxoxo

KapiteinBoterham wrote: »

I just can't stop myself from replying to these responses...

"I'm fine if that's an OPTION for those "loyal players". I'm not fine if it's across the board, non-optional. I don't NEED any more issues getting through quests and story bosses." "I personally disagree with a non-optional increase"

Like mentioned in my previous comment: Creating a toggle would take the devs extra time and resources, not something they are keen to do. Ask for too much and you might get nothing...

"Since I actually have very little use for combat in this game (or any other now really), I'll just be ignoring quest bosses I guess. I do not find any of it fun - as far as I'm concerned, I don't care two hoots if the boss has VA lines (hate VA to begin with) I never hear, and mechanics I never see.... "

This is not something a very loyal player would say in my book. Replies like these are why this thread is now almost 200 pages long, two years old and why there is never going to be any change. It must be very tiring for the developers/community managers to wade through all the back and forth to look for solid constructive critism.

Sometimes i even think that is the purpose of the people that do not agree with you, to make the thread so convoluted that the real problems will never get adressed. How hard is it to be nice for eachother and respect someone complaints? Anyhoo this is enough screaming into the void for me. Lets hope the game keeps expanding for the better! HAPPY NEW YEAR GUYS!

What's nice about framing balance as loyal vs not loyal?

Many people don't want a solution that's just forced bullet sponges. Increasing the HP wouldn't make the fights more engaging because it would be the same level of damage. The move that you ignored still isn't going to one shot you or punish you. Increased HP just makes the fight take longer. For someone with high damage, a tiny bit longer isn't going to make a difference in terms of challenge. And people who already challenged don't need it.

The game needs a more complicated solution than just increase hp. And that solution needs to be opt-in so that those that cannot (or will not) do harder content can still enjoy it.

KapiteinBoterham

One more time for you @spartaxoxo:

Creating a toggle would take the devs extra time and resources, not something they are keen to do.

Just a little exta HP won't hurt; You would spend 5-10 seconds extra at a story/quest boss. But in exchange you get so much back:

- A satisfying bossfight to end the zone story that has been building up
- Story related voice lines (already in the game, but bosses die too fast to be able to say them)
- Bosses getting the chance to use their unique moves/attacks (if i were an animator of one of these moves i would not like it if the enemy constantly died before they could show off the animation)
- increased playerbase due to less people getting bored by questing (and whatever else positives that come with that)

I hope i can make you see that this solution is just a small price to pay (for some) to increase the gameplay experience for many!

Happy new year to you in advance!

SilverBride

I am a veteran player and I enjoy challenging content but I do not want overland difficulty increased in any way, not even a little bit. I love overland for the story and the relaxing experience it provides.

I agree with optional hard mode challenge banners for story bosses but I will never agree to a mandatory across the board increase in difficulty.

valenwood_vegan

KapiteinBoterham wrote: »

Sometimes i even think that is the purpose of the people that do not agree with you, to make the thread so convoluted that the real problems will never get adressed.

No... it's actually because people disagree. Their purpose is to share their own opinions. Ultimately it's up to ZoS, but we're all free to share our own opinions on the matter for them to consider.

Athyrium93

There are some really good suggestions in here that agree with, and the main points seem to be as follows:

•Basic overland needs to remain accessible to new and restricted players.
•Vetran players find overland boring, especially the final bosses for quests because they feel no more challenging than any other mob.

Out of all the suggestions I've read on here, the two best in my opinion are:

•An optional hard mode for overland boss battles. I'd think adding the option for delve bosses, public dungeon bosses, and story quest bosses would be a good use of dev time that would appeal to a wide variety of players. I do think the hard mode should have higher rewards, but I think it should just be a rarity upgrade of the drops, the same as in vet dungeons.
•powerful wandering boss monsters that are easily avoided like were added in Necrom with the Seekers

KapiteinBoterham

@vanewood_vegan It's just frustrating putting a lot of effort into coming up with good arguments for a change that is very much needed to breath some life into this game. And people respond simply with "I don't like this" (see the reply above you for example) or repeating the same thing over again.

What you end up with is this 200 page thread that no sane ZOS emloyee is gonna try to decipher. At this point might just as well hold a three year long vote and see who wins (Of course lots of players will vote no if the question would simply be "Do you want harder overland?").

What i'd like to see is people coming up with a good argument to support their opinion so it's easy for ZOS eployees to figure out what players want and find the perfect middleground. Not just see which side can disagree the most. Since thats probably not happening i wanted to throw in the option to increase the story/quest bosses' HP slightly. It cannot be that much work for ZOS/harder for players and I personally think this is the perfect middleground.

Sometimes i feel like a lot of forum users don't realize youre asking a studio of a multimillion company to please do you a favor on a older game of theirs, they dont owe you a fleshed out system with every little change/annoyance (I'm talking about toggles and banners that were suggested).

Also a happy new year to you in advance.

Deserrick

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Increasing the HP wouldn't make the fights more engaging because it would be the same level of damage. The move that you ignored still isn't going to one shot you or punish you. Increased HP just makes the fight take longer..

A difficulty slider that changes all damage done and all damage taken would help with that issue, as well as be simple to implement.

Amottica

Gnesnig wrote: »

Fallefel wrote: »

"Crafted set:
(2) Increases incoming damage from monsters by 25%
(3) Decreases outgoing damage to monsters by 25%
(4) Increases both to 50%
(5) Increases both to 75%"
@Mocap wrote this. I'd add some incentive like at 5 pieces additionally; 10% more experience and gold gain. Nothing dramatic, but something to balance off the increased difficulty.

The problem with this is that purposely making things harder for yourself is something that only a minority of people would do. I don't know the population differences between No-CP and standard Cyrodill, but that would be one indicator. Similarly, one could add an option upon entering a delve to disable CP's to at least make them somewhat harder. But in general, the delve bosses need a boost.

This is likely an indication that it is a small portion of the population that is interested in a more challenging overland or thinks it is a good idea for the game.

So good point that only a minority would choose to go an optional way like this.

vsrs_au

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Increasing the HP wouldn't make the fights more engaging because it would be the same level of damage. The move that you ignored still isn't going to one shot you or punish you. Increased HP just makes the fight take longer..

A difficulty slider that changes all damage done and all damage taken would help with that issue, as well as be simple to implement.

Not necessarily. This is extremely complex software, and I know from personal experience that features which may from an outsider's point of view appear very simple to implement are, in fact, very time-consuming and complicated to implement.

Deserrick

vsrs_au wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Increasing the HP wouldn't make the fights more engaging because it would be the same level of damage. The move that you ignored still isn't going to one shot you or punish you. Increased HP just makes the fight take longer..

A difficulty slider that changes all damage done and all damage taken would help with that issue, as well as be simple to implement.

Not necessarily. This is extremely complex software, and I know from personal experience that features which may from an outsider's point of view appear very simple to implement are, in fact, very time-consuming and complicated to implement.

It's simple relative to other suggestions, such as adding new mechanics. Since battle spirit already exists, the ability to apply damage multipliers already exists.

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

I am a veteran player and I enjoy challenging content but I do not want overland difficulty increased in any way, not even a little bit. I love overland for the story and the relaxing experience it provides.

I agree with optional hard mode challenge banners for story bosses but I will never agree to a mandatory across the board increase in difficulty.

We're not asking for a mandatory "across the board increase in difficulty". This has been mentioned at least 100+ times already.

---

spartaxoxo

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I am a veteran player and I enjoy challenging content but I do not want overland difficulty increased in any way, not even a little bit. I love overland for the story and the relaxing experience it provides.

I agree with optional hard mode challenge banners for story bosses but I will never agree to a mandatory across the board increase in difficulty.

We're not asking for a mandatory "across the board increase in difficulty". This has been mentioned at least 100+ times already.

---

You aren't. Others are. The idea just discussed was a mandatory increase of boss HP.

SilverBride

Blackbird_V wrote: »

We're not asking for a mandatory "across the board increase in difficulty". This has been mentioned at least 100+ times already.

KapiteinBoterham wrote: »

Just a little exta HP won't hurt; You would spend 5-10 seconds extra at a story/quest boss.

Warhawke_80

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

KapiteinBoterham wrote: »

It's a disservice to the writing of the quests to have their bosses have so little HP, it's laughable. If you were to just increase their HP a little there would be no problems. Neither would a simple difficulty slider like in Oblivion/Skyrim be too bad, just a health/damage increase or something.

I can't remember if i ever actually needed to take a potion or eat a better food beforehand. It's such a slap in the face to the RPG gaming scene and turns a lot of new players off.

That is an existential argument...one might counter that it is a disservice to all of the players that are use to the current difficulty to go back and change ten years of content because a handful of Trial Players thinks it's too easy.


If ZoS did that the forums would be flooded with players complaining...what would we tell them? To suck it up and git gud?

My point is...your assertion just dosen't take in account the reality of the situation.

A handful of trial players? No, not really. A lot of people aren't satisfied with the current situation regarding overland, while most of them aren't "trial players".

Trying to devalue other peoples arguments by pretending they were only a small minority without any proof and against all probability is just dishonest framing.

Zos already acknowledged several times, that a lot of people are asking for changes regarding overland difficulty. This very thread, as well as the implementation of IA (instead of overland story) and nymics are proof for this.

Besides that: Which issue do you have with the implementation of difficulty sliders or other options to make overland more difficult for those interested in it?

What does that take away from you?

Exactly, absolutely nothing.

All I can say is I have seen your response before...when the SWG forums was flooded with SWG should be more like WoW posts...and what we got was NGE. When any major change to combat happens in any MMO the result has been always a good portion of the player base losing their collective minds after the fact


"Difficulty sliders" will not work ...you have to account for other players in your area, unless you hard lock targets to the player that first engages, that causes a whole new set of problems....

LOTRO devs found that out the hard way no matter what they tried players that wanted more difficult overland content effected those that wanted normal content. They found that out after... AFTER ...they promised difficulty levels...which killed a lot of good will the player base had with the devs.

...what will work for ESO and is a happy compromise is Heroic areas which I am all for...craglorn should have stayed as is more areas like that should have been added while leaving the current world as is