Buff to pets in pve?

ZeroXFF

@ZOS_Finn
What about mechanics that remove skills thereby causing the pets to despawn? vRoM last boss comes to mind. It's literally impossible to play with a pet there.

Dagoth_Rac

The Argonian Behemoth scream in VMA kills the combat pets. If Maelstrom is going to be excluded from this change (why?), please change the Argonian Behemoth scream interaction with combat pets. With the nerf to shields, the Matriarch heal is going to be a crucial survival skill in VMA. She cannot be dying in a way that is completely out of player control.

Also, the scream is one of the best opportunities (presumably by design) to apply damage to Argonian Behemoth. But that damage window is compromised when combat pets die to scream.

ccfeeling

I like ZOS_Finn , thank you !
You answer a lot

firedrgn

You all know that if you die your pets die. If you can keep yourself alive you can keep your pets alive.

Being given the bigger end of of a stick you dont need is just a stick.

casparian

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

So can we get stand outside a boss arena while our pet are in side...and you know.. watch?

The bosses should become aggressive to you which would prevent this.

Xerge wrote: »

@ZOS_Finn
I need to quote you on this for emphasis. You have good intentions but you literally in one swoop buffed and yet made a morph useless.

I think "useless" is a bit strong. Not every morph has use in all styles of gameplay. For instance, it is very useful in PVP should your pet be killed, or world boss farming in the overland, or Maelstrom, etc. This was a discussion and decision the combat team and the dungeon team had in regards to the feedback that pets die too much in Dungeons and Trials to make them useful. I will pass on your feedback about the changes to this morph though.

With all due respect Finn, you clearly don't play PVP at any kind of serious level. The bear isn't useful in PVP, nor is it the ult you want to be running in vMA.

spartaxoxo

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

RE: vAA and the Mage. We actually changed the Mage's Chain Lightning in Update 19 to no longer target pets. It was an oversight that we did not include a note

One thing to keep in mind also, pets can not use Taunts in the content in which they are immune so, the dream of having pets tank for you is not possible.

As always, please feel free to send in bug reports for situations (like vAA) where a pet is affected by an ability that would adversely affect the group with little counter-play and we will evaluate those reports.

Thanks!

Does this mean pets can no longer taunt at all in instanced combat? So you can't say use them in VMA anymore to help mitigate the shield nerf?

Tannus15

Recremen wrote: »

@ZOS_Finn

Glad to see so many comments today, it's great to see you folks take some time to communicate! Now as for pets, have you ever considered changing how they operate on a fundamental level? Like turning them into instant-cast long buffs along the same vein as Molten Armaments and the like, and balancing them around that kind of setup? I always hear about how limiting it is for sorcs to run pets due to the need to double-slot their pets, so letting them work like other buffs might work out better. It would also mean there wouldn't be 3-5 Winged Twilights flapping around constantly and blocking quest turn-ins, which could be pretty neat!

I really like this idea.

I was thinking it would be interesting if they had no expiry, but could be killed.
so you "refresh" the buff when they die instead of on a timer. with the cast time removed this could be really interesting.

Transairion

@ZOS_Finn

Thank you for taking the time to communicate with us, and while as a petsorc since I first started playing I do approve of the change but... it also feels like it clashes with the original design intentions.


For example:

Rebate: When one of your summoned creatures is killed or unsummoned, you're restored for X of your Max Magicka.

Obviously if pets become immortal in group PvE, they'll never be killed and rarely unsummoned by mechanics (like Hist-Sap vision in Ruins of Mattazun) so this passive won't function anymore. Arguably it's always been a kinda bad passive to begin with since it only restores a small amount and outside group PvE pets usually don't die at all if shielded, so maybe it should be redesigned entirely? I can't speak for PvP though, usually there once your lose a pet you never live long enough to resummon it.

Conjured Ward:Conjure globes of Daedric energy for protection, granting a damage shield for you and your pets that absorbs 3007 damage for 6 seconds.

The main reason Conjured Ward fits into the Daedric Summoning skill line at all is it protects your summons as well as yourself, but if group content has immortal pets there's need to shield them anymore (So people may drop Conjured entirely for something like Annulment instead).

Back in the old days one morph (Empowered Ward?) actually gave +pet damage while the shield held; so if immortal pets still take damage to their shields (but cannot lose their health) a return of this damage buff to one Conjured morph would allow the choice between Annulment/Hardened Ward for larger self-shields, or using Empowered Ward for a weaker, enduring shield that increases summon damage while their shield lasts.

Bound Armor:
Protect yourself with the power of Oblivion, creating a suit of Deadric mail that increases you block mitgation by 20% for 3 seconds. The armor also increases your Max Magicka by 5%.

This ability has felt out of place in the Daedric Summoning skill line since the game came out, since it offers next to nothing for an actual pet-using Sorc other than passive Max Mag increase while slotted (where Petsorc already has 3/5 of their bar for +damage Curse, melee pet and ranged pet). It's super meh, even more so after one morph became a Stamina Sorc morph (Sorc summons scale with Max Mag, no stamina variants) and they both gained the effect of brief block-empowerment... which really only something a Tank Sorceror would want to use (DPS/Healer Sorcs will just roll dodge something with that brief a window).

I honestly just want this ability reworked to something that makes sense in Daedric Summoning, as all the others skills benefit summoners and this one is just kind of... there. It would be great if one skill bar was like, 10 abilities long instead of 5 but with limited space it just feels like a slot-taking passive. I want a reason to slot this while using pets, I don't even know what to suggest... +pet movespeed? Instant teleport to owner button?

Summon Twilight Tormentor
Call on Azura to send a twilight tormentor to fight at your side. The twilight tormentor’s attacks deals 636 Shock Damage plus an additional 15% damage.
Once summoned, you can activate the twilight tormentor's special ability, causing it to deal 50% more damage to enemies above 50% Health for 15 seconds.
The twilight tormentor remains until killed or unsummoned.

Slightly on a tangent now, but I just want to reiterate how bad this morph actually is because it's needed proper buffs for years and the Murkmire cost-decrease doesn't make it anymore appealing than Live.

Winged Twilight's only attack every few seconds, and it's special ability gives it a +50% damage buff to those attacks. But it also ONLY buffs when the target is 50%+ HP, and after that the Twilight literally no longer has an active ability anymore. So for Group PvE, the Tormentor morph stops functioning entirely for half of any given boss encounter. The Twilight Matriarch morph however has the same base damage, and it's healing active is usable all the time.

The Twilight Tormentor morph desperately needs:

1) Higher Base damage
OR
2) To apply a debuff to it's target when the active ability is used
OR
3) To have the 50% damage amp active reworked to function at all HP levels, perhaps as a "reverse execute" (100% bonus damage at high HP, 1% bonus damage at low HP)?

It's been the inferior morph for years, even on pet-damage focused builds just because of how specifically limited it is so it could really use a buff.

Thanks for taking the time to read my input!

ezio45

ccfeeling wrote: »

I like ZOS_Finn , thank you !
You answer a lot

Ya its cools to see this lvl of engagement from zos @ZOS_Finn 4 president....

ezio45

@ZOS_Finn

Ik this thread is pve but is it possible in the future that we might see some changes to make the damage pets more useful for pvp?

Pet sorcs arnt really a thing in pvp and neither is non burst damage magsorc.... It would be cool for the pet sorc variant of the class to be viable in pvp aswell and offer something the non pet doesn't. Pressure instead of burst.

also on a pve topic I just wanted to say that I like the current approach to pet, meaning you can take them or leave them and have a good solid build regardless. Id rather not have the pets become a vital part of the over all sorc gameplay and slowly phase out non pets for pet sorcs.

Septimus_Magna

Apherius wrote: »

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

RE: vAA and the Mage. We actually changed the Mage's Chain Lightning in Update 19 to no longer target pets. It was an oversight that we did not include a note

One thing to keep in mind also, pets can not use Taunts in the content in which they are immune so, the dream of having pets tank for you is not possible.

As always, please feel free to send in bug reports for situations (like vAA) where a pet is affected by an ability that would adversely affect the group with little counter-play and we will evaluate those reports.

Thanks!

Whoa, thank for info, it open nice possibilities for pet build.

What about rebate passive ability ? Since pets won't die in PVE anymore, maybe it could be changed ?

New rebate, increase shield strength by 50%

Merlin13KAGL

ZeroXFF wrote: »

@ZOS_Finn
What about mechanics that remove skills thereby causing the pets to despawn? vRoM last boss comes to mind. It's literally impossible to play with a pet there.

@ZeroXFF Blackheart haven is another.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The Argonian Behemoth scream in VMA kills the combat pets. If Maelstrom is going to be excluded from this change (why?), please change the Argonian Behemoth scream interaction with combat pets. With the nerf to shields, the Matriarch heal is going to be a crucial survival skill in VMA. She cannot be dying in a way that is completely out of player control.

Also, the scream is one of the best opportunities (presumably by design) to apply damage to Argonian Behemoth. But that damage window is compromised when combat pets die to scream.

@Dagoth_Rac you can use Command Pet + Recall to at least save the Matriarch, but the scamp is out of luck, still.

Also, it still defeats the purpose of producing damage (either way, dead or passive, the scamp won't unless the boss is 2 ft in front of you) and does nothing for console users (no Command Pet option, as I understand it.)

@ZOS_Finn Giving them immunity to this stage/round seems like a perfectly reasonable request.

I'd still like some improvements to AI. Games from 20 years ago had at least the option to set distance (stay close, medium, max range), and targeting. HA targeting vs Command Pet should still be a toggle option in settings. The convenience of the HA is nice, but it took away a level of control that was available prior to its implementation.

Universe

@ZOS_Finn Taunt or no taunt, I will still be able to solo a lot of the group content
If your goal was to remove the ability of some sorcerers to solo content by nerfing the pets, mission failed

Apherius

Transairion wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to read my input!

I had an idea for Bound aegis

Bound Aegis: Cost 3443 magicka ( reduce the cost ? ): Protect yourself and your pets ( cooool ) with the power of Oblivion, Creating a suit of Daedric mail for you and your pets that increases your block mitigation by 36% for 3 seconds, also anchor your Daedric Familiar in Tamriel during 42 sec. While slotted, your Max [...]

Isn't that cool ? " Anchor " mean you would not need them on Both bar ... If you don't refresh the buff you will need to reactive the pet, it's the risk and it reward skilful rotation. Of course they would need to slightly change the pet ( see below).
If you have the scamp or the twillight on 1 bar and barswitch ... they would just stand where they are " screaming" during 1 sec then dissapear unless you active bound aegis or barswitch )

code65536

One of the key concerns that we've had with pets in trials is them "stealing" player-capped buffs. Notably, we've had deaths in vHoF execute because healing Springs ticks (which are AoE-capped) were going to pets rather than players. I assume now that with pets taking no damage, that this would finally fix that problem of pets stealing heals. But what about other buffs like SPC? (not that anyone uses SPC these days, but just as an illustrative example)

SammyFable

code65536 wrote: »

One of the key concerns that we've had with pets in trials is them "stealing" player-capped buffs. Notably, we've had deaths in vHoF execute because healing Springs ticks (which are AoE-capped) were going to pets rather than players. I assume now that with pets taking no damage, that this would finally fix that problem of pets stealing heals. But what about other buffs like SPC? (not that anyone uses SPC these days, but just as an illustrative example)

As far as I know this has been fixed a very long time ago, at least for sorc pets, as the buffs will prioritize players over pets, as long as the players are in range and qualify for the buff at all. So if you have 11 players and a pet in war horn range, the pet would get the buff, but with 12 players and a pet in range, only the players should get the buff. I could be wrong though.

ZOS_Finn

ZeroXFF wrote: »

@ZOS_Finn
What about mechanics that remove skills thereby causing the pets to despawn? vRoM last boss comes to mind. It's literally impossible to play with a pet there.

We can take a look at that. A fix for that issue is not going to be easy however.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The Argonian Behemoth scream in VMA kills the combat pets. If Maelstrom is going to be excluded from this change (why?), please change the Argonian Behemoth scream interaction with combat pets. With the nerf to shields, the Matriarch heal is going to be a crucial survival skill in VMA. She cannot be dying in a way that is completely out of player control.

Also, the scream is one of the best opportunities (presumably by design) to apply damage to Argonian Behemoth. But that damage window is compromised when combat pets die to scream.

Maelstrom is excluded for various reasons from most of these changes but this is a good case of where we would want to take a look and possibly make adjustments.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Does this mean pets can no longer taunt at all in instanced combat? So you can't say use them in VMA anymore to help mitigate the shield nerf?

This has been the case for a while actually. The taunt thing is not new, just how much damage they can take. And when you say "instanced combat" it really is only Trials, Dungeons and Group Arenas where Taunt is affected.

@Transairion I will pass on your feedback to the Combat team.

@ezio45 That would be a good discussion for the combat team. It may be better to start a thread specifically for PVP pet changes so comments don't get lost in the mix.

@Universe That is not really the goal to the change. The change was done to make pets less of a burden to use in group content. At the same time, making them take 0 damage AND be able to taunt would be a problem so, we made sure that wasn't an option. If you can solo group content before, this change would not hinder that.

@code65536 I will send this feedback to the combat team to take a look at.

Universe

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

@Universe That is not really the goal to the change. The change was done to make pets less of a burden to use in group content. At the same time, making them take 0 damage AND be able to taunt would be a problem so, we made sure that wasn't an option. If you can solo group content before, this change would not hinder that.

Thanks for the clarification

rafaelcsmaia

@ZOS_Finn

As a suggestion to the rebate issue, make it restore magicka each time pets take damage (Even if they take 0 damage i believe the game still computes the damage being dealt to them) with a 4 or 5 seconds cooldown.

This would GREATLY help sorc sustain that is lacking in PVE and can be fine tuned with the cooldown to avoid it being OP.

mistrija999

I love how zo$ ignores every other thread that's actualy important on PTS forums, but keeps constantly replying to ones that are less important

weedgenius

mistrija999 wrote: »

I love how zo$ ignores every other thread that's actualy important on PTS forums, but keeps constantly replying to ones that are less important

How are you still here right now?

mistrija999

@weedgenius
“Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness."
I am tryin real hard to be the shepard

Zecram

Does this changes also apply to werewolf pack leader's pet?
Last time I check they still were getting target by the celestial mage's chain lightning ability in Aetherian Archive.

mistrija999

@weedgenius Well she got triggered removed it and PMed me, mission complete!
I was only trying to shepherd the weak through the valley of the darkness.

Avran_Sylt

mistrija999 wrote: »

@weedgenius Well she got triggered removed it and PMed me, mission complete!
I was only trying to shepherd the weak through the valley of the darkness.

What doesn't interest you, may interest others. Finn is a dungeon designer, and as such, these changes are literally hand-in-hand with what he does. Thus communication for him with the community is easier, and so he decides to do it.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you and simply enjoy the additional information in this regard. I can tell you that if my own interested topic was beset by drivel like yours I'd eventually start keeping quiet. Generally what has happened with most PvP designers...

Let's carry-on.

I'm certainly going to be interested in these changes as my Sorc is a Zoo-Sorc, and I'm going to try and make a build (however inefficient it will be), that revolves around it now!

Solariken

@ZOS_Finn forgive me if I'm missing something, but if you are changing pets to take no damage, shouldn't you also make them completely untargetable?

I mean why would you allow them to be focused by any enemy that can't harm them?

dpencil1

Thank you @ZOS_Finn
Your interaction on the forums is always so insightful and encouraging. Thanks for taking time to field questions on this topic.

Since you're here, would you mind passing on a question to the combat team? Namely, can the fact that pet damage only scales off of max magicka and not spell damage be looked at? Especially if Sorcs are intended to move attribute points/glyphs to health to gain more meaningful shield size (my current shield is well over 100% of my health on Live), this will adversely effect pet damage more than other skills.

I'd also echo the sentiments that needing to slot the pets on both bars, especially considering the loss of the Overload bar, and the weakness of the Rebate passive are things that are worth examining as well.

Hixtory

Recremen wrote: »

@ZOS_Finn

Glad to see so many comments today, it's great to see you folks take some time to communicate! Now as for pets, have you ever considered changing how they operate on a fundamental level? Like turning them into instant-cast long buffs along the same vein as Molten Armaments and the like, and balancing them around that kind of setup? I always hear about how limiting it is for sorcs to run pets due to the need to double-slot their pets, so letting them work like other buffs might work out better. It would also mean there wouldn't be 3-5 Winged Twilights flapping around constantly and blocking quest turn-ins, which could be pretty neat!

Im not sure the matriarch would be reliable as a heal on demand if you happen to have the thing unsummoned

Hixtory

Anhedonie wrote: »

Good change on pets. Now bear won't die every 3 seconds in veteran Cloudrest.
On another hand...couldn't you make pets toggleables? Like Mend Wounds skill. Even if you activate it on a single bar - it's always active, until you disable it. Isn't it possible to code combat pets the same way?

This would be nice, if this can happen would be a nice solution, not havin to recast the pets, and not double bar to keep them summoned

BretonMage

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

The change to taunt I mentioned was changed quite a while ago, when we upped their damage resistance initially.

For those mentioning Maelstrom, it is not affected as it is solo, we want players to be able to use pets effectively in that arena. That said, bosses within Maelstrom have always been immune to pet taunt and this has not changed.

I am embarrassed to admit I never really noticed. I had always thought the clannfear was still tanking, but perhaps he was just distracting enemies with his melee attacks (as opposed to the Twilight, who hangs back with ranged attacks).

Thank you for answering my question