Incoming magika dk overlords

FearlessOne_2014

My Magknight in training is LvL 23 or so and raising. Get yalls anuses ready for the 2nd cometh of the Magknight, I will be ready this time!

Calboy

zos knows they are on a tight rope with mdk and the slightest of buffs will mean they will be gods. I am dreading the day mdks are all over cyrodiil spamming fossilize and talons along with their snare. Give me stam proc meta any day.

pieratsos

Waffennacht wrote: »

Abilities are the backbowne of the game, if you don't achieve balance on this basic of a scale, large scale - such as 15 v 15 battles will nevet be balanced. One OP skill can ruin the balance of such large scale battles, see every complaint thread of eots.

Yes Eots is broken af i said it on my previous post but what does it have to do with mDK. Everyone can use it and thats a problem with the skill not with the mDK as a class. Stick to the point and stop bringing different topics into the discussion that have nothing to do with mDK. You balance the game around open world PVP. Both solo and group. Right now mDK is by far the worst for solo. No mobility no burst no self healing. Absolutely nothing. And even tho they seem to be good in groups in reality they are not really good. They seem to be good cause everyone else will cover their weaknesses. The only thing they have to offer in groups is crowd control and even that can be done a lot better by a sorc.
Literally every single person that is against mDK buffs have never played mDK in the first place and their only arguments are "i find it hard to kill a mDK in 1v1" or "the mDK has good crowd control". If you believe they are good then feel free and go play mDK for a couple of days and then come back and tell us about how good they are.

incognito222

ZOS knows the state of each class and are TRYING to address areas of glaring concern.

Being worried over unknown changes and debating over 'what ifs' sounds a bit premature and will lead to nowhere.

I say give ZOS a chance to do their work without trying to scare them into not implementing planned changes. Admittedly, these planned changes could be good or bad but that's just how things are sometimes : you don't know for certain until you try.
One thing IS for certain though, magicka dk in pvp is playing on hardmode.

Give ZOS a chance, they know their game and they play it. ESO is not perfect and no MMO will ever be, but honestly this game has only gotten better over time. That's why we still login and passionately express our views on the forums.

BuggeX

Calboy wrote: »

zos knows they are on a tight rope with mdk and the slightest of buffs will mean they will be gods. I am dreading the day mdks are all over cyrodiil spamming fossilize and talons along with their snare. Give me stam proc meta any day.

then i would say all other class are way to op. as mDK you will not kill any decent Player in Cyro.
you will never outdmg any decent Vigor/momentum Spamer.
you will never brake any decent Shild Sorc
you will never kill a decent Templar
you will never kill a decent mNB

and i have done many Duells with great Player on azura, all say the same. no way to beat other classes than mDK as mDK
no matter wath gear or wath skills you use. Fozzilise and Meteor Combo was once good when it was bugged. Fozzilise give a shild, the higher your dmg the higher the shild will be, negating most of the Meteor dmg.

Waffennacht

The mDK I duel against is a Former Emp, he does QUITE well

Minalan

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@Joy_Division as I've said in several places, I do think that mDk needs some adjustment and I certainly think some things should be buffed, but I'm a big picture balance guy and there are also some things that will need to be toned down.

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

...

There is a similar balance conundrum brewing with Templar Extended Ritual. It's going to eventually be nerfed or changed, and for good reason, I'm telling you right now. I'm glad it didn't happen last patch because it was obvious ZOS didn't put enough thought into it and it would have been painful. But it is coming.

Neither skill needs a nerf. Wings should have 100% reflect, change the max number of projectiles to 8 instead of 4, leave the duration. DKs have a hard enough time with sustain as it is, 100% uptime on wings is difficult to keep up. A well timed burst combo from a sorc will still kill a DK. Similarly, extended ritual is a good counter to DK DOTs but again, a well timed burst combo with a meteor will kill a templar just fine. Theres nothing wrong with one class being a strong counter to one other class. It increases the skill required to play the game rather than mindless spamming your rotation over and over no matter who you're fighting.

Eight projectiles is way too many. There's a reason they made it four. If you're really that outnumbered, just take the loss and respawn.

Ishammael

Minalan wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@Joy_Division as I've said in several places, I do think that mDk needs some adjustment and I certainly think some things should be buffed, but I'm a big picture balance guy and there are also some things that will need to be toned down.

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

...

There is a similar balance conundrum brewing with Templar Extended Ritual. It's going to eventually be nerfed or changed, and for good reason, I'm telling you right now. I'm glad it didn't happen last patch because it was obvious ZOS didn't put enough thought into it and it would have been painful. But it is coming.

Neither skill needs a nerf. Wings should have 100% reflect, change the max number of projectiles to 8 instead of 4, leave the duration. DKs have a hard enough time with sustain as it is, 100% uptime on wings is difficult to keep up. A well timed burst combo from a sorc will still kill a DK. Similarly, extended ritual is a good counter to DK DOTs but again, a well timed burst combo with a meteor will kill a templar just fine. Theres nothing wrong with one class being a strong counter to one other class. It increases the skill required to play the game rather than mindless spamming your rotation over and over no matter who you're fighting.

Eight projectiles is way too many. There's a reason they made it four. If you're really that outnumbered, just take the loss and respawn.

Just roll over and die for me! Gosh! I hate it when you fight back!

AverageJo3Gam3r

Not sure why everyone fears wings. Mines are just as OP at shutting down melee classes--which is why many organized dueling tournaments ban both.

Both have counterplay and make the game more interesting. Wings only lasts 4 seconds. You see the wings go up, count to 3, then cc and do your burst combo.

Xvorg

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Not sure why everyone fears wings. Mines are just as OP at shutting down melee classes--which is why many organized dueling tournaments ban both.

Both have counterplay and make the game more interesting. Wings only lasts 4 seconds. You see the wings go up, count to 3, then cc and do your burst combo.

The funny part about wings is that they are useless against full heavy lightning and resto attacks. Wings were strong when people used flame staves and you were able to see the fireball coming.

Wings are no way strong against bow, since you are unable to see most of the arrows. To make it effective you need to keep on spamming it, "just in case" and that requires a strong magicka recovey. That magicka recovery implies low spell dmg, so anyone coming to you at melee range is going to beat your *

Waffennacht

@pieratsos I again did not say DK was OP, I did not say mDK deserves no buffs, at this point mDK has nothing to do with it. I'm refuting your point that one specific ability does not have an effect on balance. I use eots as my proof. One skill can completely dissolve the balance in both dueling and large scale skirmishes. If ZoS was to buff mDK, even with one OP skill, that will destroy balance.

Your point that small scale should not be considered in balance is one I disagree with, I believe the more balanced skills are between each class specifically, it will lead to balance in the large scale. Again has nothing to do mDK specifically, but it does have everything to do with your philosophy regarding balance.

You keep bringing up mDK as if that class has anything to do with your beliefs in balance. At this point mDK is not a part of the discussion. You can keep acting like I said mDK is Op, doesn't make it true though.

Again, as a hard counter to sorcs, you can see why balance would be a concern of ours, you obviously share no concern about this and refuse to accept it is of others. Thankfully your opinions of small scale are not shared by the devs.

pieratsos

Waffennacht wrote: »

@pieratsos I again did not say DK was OP, I did not say mDK deserves no buffs, at this point mDK has nothing to do with it. I'm refuting your point that one specific ability does not have an effect on balance. I use eots as my proof. One skill can completely dissolve the balance in both dueling and large scale skirmishes. If ZoS was to buff mDK, even with one OP skill, that will destroy balance.

Your point that small scale should not be considered in balance is one I disagree with, I believe the more balanced skills are between each class specifically, it will lead to balance in the large scale. Again has nothing to do mDK specifically, but it does have everything to do with your philosophy regarding balance.

You keep bringing up mDK as if that class has anything to do with your beliefs in balance. At this point mDK is not a part of the discussion. You can keep acting like I said mDK is Op, doesn't make it true though.

Again, as a hard counter to sorcs, you can see why balance would be a concern of ours, you obviously share no concern about this and refuse to accept it is of others. Thankfully your opinions of small scale are not shared by the devs.

Eots has nothing to do with class balance. Thats not even debatable. Eots is just a broken ability that will get nerfed and thats it. The fact that a mDK can use that ult it doesnt mean that it should be considered when u balance the class. What happens when u nerf that ability then (which will get nerfed obviously)? mDK becomes even worse. Nice balance there buddy. Its not rocket sciense, its common sense. Thats the same thing that happened with shield breaker. Sorc shields were a problem cause they could tank a zerg with their eyes closed. They put in a stamina shield breaker set even tho magicka builds were having the biggest problems with sorcs (logic) and called it a day. Then every bowtard abused the crap out of that set to zerg sorcs down and then u ended up with sorcs complaining too and they had every right to complain about it cause it was just a crappy band aid fix that solved absolutely nothing. You do not balance the classes like that.

I keep bringing up mDK cause this thread is about mDK. So yeah mDK is a part of the discussion and if u feel like it isnt then maybe you should read the title again. If you dont want to discuss mDK then maybe you should stop posting here instead of telling me that mDK is not a part of the discussion.

Where on earth did u see me saying that small scale should not be considered in class balance. I said 1v1 should not be considered not small scale. 1v1 and small scale are not the same thing. Learn the difference between them. ALL CLASSES ARE GOOD IN 1V1. That doesnt mean you have balance. Small scale is a part of open world PVP and its very funny that u mention it considering that mDK is the worst class for small scale too. I play a sorc too and its not my concern if it will become even more difficult to kill a mDK in a duel cause i know that no matter how good mDK are in duels it doesnt mean they are good in open world PVP too. So no balancing around duelling isnt going to lead to balance in large scale fights. That should be very obvious to you considering that sorcs struggle against mDK in duels yet they are miles ahead of them in every other aspect of PVP in the game.

Saying that sorcs are concerned of not being to kill a specific class in a duel when that class is by far the worst and most frustrating to play is just selfish and thankfully devs do not share your opinion and thats why they are buffing mDK.

Waffennacht

First off I bring up eots AS AN EXAMPLE fml, fine I'll change it to: Pre 1.5 wings, an ability that broke the balance.

I'm also glad you edited your posts removing the insanity where abilities have nothing to do with balance

pieratsos

Waffennacht wrote: »

First off I bring up eots AS AN EXAMPLE fml, fine I'll change it to: Pre 1.5 wings, an ability that broke the balance.

I'm also glad you edited your posts removing the insanity where abilities have nothing to do with balance

What exactly did i remove from my post? Didnt remove anything. I NEVER said that abilities have nothing to do with balance. I said eots has nothing to do with DK balance. Eots is a specific ability that is broken and it will be addressed (hopefully) but it has nothing to do with balancing mDK or any other class. If eots was an ability that breaks the class balance then u would see nerf mDK, mTemplar, mSorc, mNB threads and not nerf eots threads. If you still dont get it then i just give up but keep trying, ull get it eventually. Wings is a DK ability and has everything to with DK balance. There is a huge difference between the two of them.
You are the one who need to start editing ur posts and remove the insanity that mDK is good in small scale PVP or that small scale is the same as 1v1 or 1v1 needs to be considered in class balance. Still dont know which of the three u meant with ur last post but in any case all 3 of them are completely ridiculous.

Waffennacht

pieratsos wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

First off I bring up eots AS AN EXAMPLE fml, fine I'll change it to: Pre 1.5 wings, an ability that broke the balance.

I'm also glad you edited your posts removing the insanity where abilities have nothing to do with balance

What exactly did i remove from my post? Didnt remove anything. I NEVER said that abilities have nothing to do with balance. I said eots has nothing to do with DK balance. Eots is a specific ability that is broken and it will be addressed (hopefully) but it has nothing to do with balancing mDK or any other class. If eots was an ability that breaks the class balance then u would see nerf mDK, mTemplar, mSorc, mNB threads and not nerf eots threads. If you still dont get it then i just give up but keep trying, ull get it eventually. Wings is a DK ability and has everything to with DK balance. There is a huge difference between the two of them.
You are the one who need to start editing ur posts and remove the insanity that mDK is good in small scale PVP or that small scale is the same as 1v1 or 1v1 needs to be considered in class balance. Still dont know which of the three u meant with ur last post but in any case all 3 of them are completely ridiculous.

If you think mDK is not good at 1v1 you're wrong. Period. I'll post up the mDK former Emp duels to show you what a competent player can do with a mDK.

If you feel mDK is subpar in larger scale, well that's fine, I'm not gonna disagree.

If you feel 1v1 need not be considered when buffs or nerfs occur, that's fine - that's an opinion.

All I said was, as a mSorc, one of the most difficult opponents is a mDK. As a sorc, when I hear mDK can be buffed in the future I'm worried it'll be buffed to the point of pre 1.5 (such as infinite wings) where there is no chance for victory - in small scale - again an opinion and an explanation as to why.

Not once did I say anything remotely about mDK being OP and not deserving of changes - in fact I'm assuming changes will occur and in the form of buffs.

People were wondering why someone may be worried about mDK buffs, - this is an answer to that.

It was a fine conversation till you went all ham and started spouting how individual moves do not effect balance - the part you edited - and how small scale should not be considered when discussing balance - I disagree.

pieratsos

Waffennacht wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

First off I bring up eots AS AN EXAMPLE fml, fine I'll change it to: Pre 1.5 wings, an ability that broke the balance.

I'm also glad you edited your posts removing the insanity where abilities have nothing to do with balance

What exactly did i remove from my post? Didnt remove anything. I NEVER said that abilities have nothing to do with balance. I said eots has nothing to do with DK balance. Eots is a specific ability that is broken and it will be addressed (hopefully) but it has nothing to do with balancing mDK or any other class. If eots was an ability that breaks the class balance then u would see nerf mDK, mTemplar, mSorc, mNB threads and not nerf eots threads. If you still dont get it then i just give up but keep trying, ull get it eventually. Wings is a DK ability and has everything to with DK balance. There is a huge difference between the two of them.
You are the one who need to start editing ur posts and remove the insanity that mDK is good in small scale PVP or that small scale is the same as 1v1 or 1v1 needs to be considered in class balance. Still dont know which of the three u meant with ur last post but in any case all 3 of them are completely ridiculous.

If you think mDK is not good at 1v1 you're wrong. Period. I'll post up the mDK former Emp duels to show you what a competent player can do with a mDK.

If you feel mDK is subpar in larger scale, well that's fine, I'm not gonna disagree.

If you feel 1v1 need not be considered when buffs or nerfs occur, that's fine - that's an opinion.

All I said was, as a mSorc, one of the most difficult opponents is a mDK. As a sorc, when I hear mDK can be buffed in the future I'm worried it'll be buffed to the point of pre 1.5 (such as infinite wings) where there is no chance for victory - in small scale - again an opinion and an explanation as to why.

Not once did I say anything remotely about mDK being OP and not deserving of changes - in fact I'm assuming changes will occur and in the form of buffs.

People were wondering why someone may be worried about mDK buffs, - this is an answer to that.

It was a fine conversation till you went all ham and started spouting how individual moves do not effect balance - the part you edited - and how small scale should not be considered when discussing balance - I disagree.

Omfg. Dude wtf are u even talking about. Where did i say that mDK is not good in 1v1 or small scale should not be considered in balance or abilities do not affect balance. You are the one who said that eots being broken affects mDK the same way as wings affect mDK. You dont even know the difference between 1v1 and small scale PVP. I dont even know what to say anymore.

Waffennacht

pieratsos wrote: »

You do not balance the classes around duelling. Seriously saying that mDK is very good in 1v1 so buffing will make them OP against sorcs just doesnt make sesnse. Every single class in the game is good in 1v1. So what does that mean? That we have balance? Its just ridiculous. 1v1 is a controlled environment where u can counter ur opponent and the fact that u can change CP too makes it even worse. Even the worst player in the game can look good in duels. Seriously this nonsense about mDK being good in 1v1 so they are "balanced" has to stop.

pieratsos wrote: »

What the heck does numbers or specific abilities being broken have to do with class balance. I like how you believe that balance has nothing to do with open world but has everything to do with 1v1 tho. Keep telling people that mDK is balanced because they are good in 1v1. Im sure everyone will agree with you. Not even going to discuss this even further. You obviously have no idea about what your talking about and i seriously doubt if you even PVP at all. And thats not even a matter of opinion anymore. Its a fact.

And THE quote:

pieratsos wrote: »

Not 1v1. Duels have absolutely nothing to do with class balance.

These are the quotes I'm referring to. Yes, maybe I did assume a little bit, and my apologies. But you DID assume - example second quote - that I feel mDKs are "balanced" all I said, as a mSorc, given the list of current advantages mDK does have, we are worried about future buffs. IN dueling- MY very first post clearly reads: IN DUELING

Edit: and to be absolutely clear, after that I disagreed with this line here: What the heck does numbers or specific abilities being broken have to do with class balance? this is the philosophy my posts are referring to. I completely disagree with this line and went on to explain why. You kept bringing up mDK from this point on. - which was an answer: absolutely everything, numbers and broken abilities have a lot to do with class balance, see Templars for the first few years.

Cinbri

It was told that magicka dk will get buff because all questions on AUA were only about magicka dks.
Are you REALLY think that entire year from previous major rebalance Wrobel spent on thinkng how to buff magicka dk alone? Like, seriuosly?

pieratsos

Waffennacht wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

You do not balance the classes around duelling. Seriously saying that mDK is very good in 1v1 so buffing will make them OP against sorcs just doesnt make sesnse. Every single class in the game is good in 1v1. So what does that mean? That we have balance? Its just ridiculous. 1v1 is a controlled environment where u can counter ur opponent and the fact that u can change CP too makes it even worse. Even the worst player in the game can look good in duels. Seriously this nonsense about mDK being good in 1v1 so they are "balanced" has to stop.

pieratsos wrote: »

What the heck does numbers or specific abilities being broken have to do with class balance. I like how you believe that balance has nothing to do with open world but has everything to do with 1v1 tho. Keep telling people that mDK is balanced because they are good in 1v1. Im sure everyone will agree with you. Not even going to discuss this even further. You obviously have no idea about what your talking about and i seriously doubt if you even PVP at all. And thats not even a matter of opinion anymore. Its a fact.

And THE quote:

pieratsos wrote: »

Not 1v1. Duels have absolutely nothing to do with class balance.

These are the quotes I'm referring to. Yes, maybe I did assume a little bit, and my apologies. But you DID assume - example second quote - that I feel mDKs are "balanced" all I said, as a mSorc, given the list of current advantages mDK does have, we are worried about future buffs. IN dueling- MY very first post clearly reads: IN DUELING

Read the second line of the first quote. "Every single class in the game is good in 1v1". So i said that mDK is good in 1v1.
Still trying to find where did i say that small scale should not be considered in class balance. I said 1v1 should not be considered. There is a difference between small scale and 1v1. As a matter of fact you are the one who said that you dont care about small scale by saying i dont care about open world PVP. Small scale is a part of open world PVP. Go in the fourth page, there is a post by @Armitas explaining why duels should not be considered in class balance therefore ur worries about not being able to kill a mDK in a duel have nothing to do class balance.

What the heck does numbers or specific abilities being broken have to do with class balance? I said this when you brought up eots while talking about mDK balance. Then i explained why eots being broken has nothing to do with mDK balance and why it should not be considered when you balance the mDK as a class. Does eots affect the balance of the game. Of course it does. Its broken and its melting people. Does it mean that it should be considered when u balance the DK as a class? Of course not cause when eots gets nerfed then DK is going to be even worse.

Waffennacht

First off, I will admit out of being lazy I did not feel like I had to specify each time dueling, small scale 2v2 3v3, and 10+vX, I'm at work and that's a lot of typing that I didn't think was necessary. I won't make that mistake again.

I completely disagree every class can do well 1v1, this would come with a description of how this would only be truly under the circumstances that everything else is even. Such as an unchanging ability decision based rotation and re action, same and similar CP load out and distribution, gear acquisition and availability and most importantly player skill. Given IF all these are equal, each class will not do proportionally well. I guarantee class passive restrictions - such as access to major mending - greatly tip the scale of balance. Again, however, out of brevity, I decided to forego this avenue of discussion. But as you pointed out, I can no longer afford the luxury of being pithy.

But I digress, I feel in the most general of gaming philosophies, disregarding class specifics for this moment. If specific abilities were balanced, in the most basic of levels, all higher forms of use that stems from said abilities would too then result in balance. In essence, if the foundation is balanced, it is far easier to balance all structured interaction that comes forthwith.

Quite simply that was my only opinion regarding small scale err I mean dueling, but you had @$!#ed me right off with your attitude.

Edit: would only*

pieratsos

Waffennacht wrote: »

I completely disagree every class can do well 1v1, this would come with a description of how this would only be truly under the circumstances that everything else is even. Such as an unchanging ability decision based rotation and re action, same and similar CP load out and distribution, gear acquisition and availability and most importantly player skill. Given IF all these are equal, each class will not do proportionally well. I guarantee class passive restrictions - such as access to major mending - greatly tip the scale of balance. Again, however, out of brevity, I decided to forego this avenue of discussion. But as you pointed out, I can no longer afford the luxury of being pithy.

This is why every class is good in 1v1. Cause you can change CP, gear, abilities etc to completely counter your opponent. This is why mDK is good in 1v1. Cause their weakness in mobility doesnt matter, people will not run away of them and they will change their skills and counter ur build. For example they will drop mist form and inhale to use something else. They will also use their wings when they have to. You cant do that in open world PVP. In open world PVP mDK will have to run specific abilities and sets and change their CP to balance between sustain dmg and survivability otherwise they will just die. Wings wont save them cause they cant just spam them every second to reflect everything. You can kite the mDK and escape whenever you feel like it. 1v1 and open world are two completely different things. If you as a sorc go up against a mDK in open world you will not die unless u start spamming frags and overloads. And even if the mDK is too tanky and u cant kill him. Well u can just leave and there is nothing he can do about it.

Calboy

I'm happy where mdks are at. Sure they are underpowered (not as much as magblade) and have a strong following of people wanting to be overpowered. But I think the amount of mdks present in cyrodiil is perfect. Anymore and pvp will be worse than what it currently is.

pieratsos

Calboy wrote: »

I'm happy where mdks are at. Sure they are underpowered (not as much as magblade) and have a strong following of people wanting to be overpowered. But I think the amount of mdks present in cyrodiil is perfect. Anymore and pvp will be worse than what it currently is.

Just because there are a lot of mDK in cyro it doesnt mean they are fine. mDK struggles because the class has a lot of issues and it doesnt support their playstyle. Magblades struggle but its not because of class issues. Its mostly because of stupid mechanics like snares and roots and unkillable tanks in heavy armor doing ridiculous dmg. Put snare, root cooldown in the game redesign that useless spell warding light armor passive and make armor abilities available only when u have 5 pieces of that armor equipped and magblades will be fine.

Minalan

Ishammael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@Joy_Division as I've said in several places, I do think that mDk needs some adjustment and I certainly think some things should be buffed, but I'm a big picture balance guy and there are also some things that will need to be toned down.

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

...

There is a similar balance conundrum brewing with Templar Extended Ritual. It's going to eventually be nerfed or changed, and for good reason, I'm telling you right now. I'm glad it didn't happen last patch because it was obvious ZOS didn't put enough thought into it and it would have been painful. But it is coming.

Neither skill needs a nerf. Wings should have 100% reflect, change the max number of projectiles to 8 instead of 4, leave the duration. DKs have a hard enough time with sustain as it is, 100% uptime on wings is difficult to keep up. A well timed burst combo from a sorc will still kill a DK. Similarly, extended ritual is a good counter to DK DOTs but again, a well timed burst combo with a meteor will kill a templar just fine. Theres nothing wrong with one class being a strong counter to one other class. It increases the skill required to play the game rather than mindless spamming your rotation over and over no matter who you're fighting.

Eight projectiles is way too many. There's a reason they made it four. If you're really that outnumbered, just take the loss and respawn.

Just roll over and die for me! Gosh! I hate it when you fight back!

But but but... I deserve to survive forever with six to eight people beating on me!

Yeah both arguments sound kind of stupid. This isn't TANKING projectiles with a shield or armor, that's different. This is actually sending them back, possibly (hopefully) killing those players.

This is why 4 is a good number, it's a compromise between the 'OMG it's OP' and 'OMG buff this NOW' crowds that neither is happy with. That's what makes it balanced.

Ishammael

Minalan wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@Joy_Division as I've said in several places, I do think that mDk needs some adjustment and I certainly think some things should be buffed, but I'm a big picture balance guy and there are also some things that will need to be toned down.

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

...

There is a similar balance conundrum brewing with Templar Extended Ritual. It's going to eventually be nerfed or changed, and for good reason, I'm telling you right now. I'm glad it didn't happen last patch because it was obvious ZOS didn't put enough thought into it and it would have been painful. But it is coming.

Neither skill needs a nerf. Wings should have 100% reflect, change the max number of projectiles to 8 instead of 4, leave the duration. DKs have a hard enough time with sustain as it is, 100% uptime on wings is difficult to keep up. A well timed burst combo from a sorc will still kill a DK. Similarly, extended ritual is a good counter to DK DOTs but again, a well timed burst combo with a meteor will kill a templar just fine. Theres nothing wrong with one class being a strong counter to one other class. It increases the skill required to play the game rather than mindless spamming your rotation over and over no matter who you're fighting.

Eight projectiles is way too many. There's a reason they made it four. If you're really that outnumbered, just take the loss and respawn.

Just roll over and die for me! Gosh! I hate it when you fight back!

But but but... I deserve to survive forever with six to eight people beating on me!

Yeah both arguments sound kind of stupid. This isn't TANKING projectiles with a shield or armor, that's different. This is actually sending them back, possibly (hopefully) killing those players.

This is why 4 is a good number, it's a compromise between the 'OMG it's OP' and 'OMG buff this NOW' crowds that neither is happy with. That's what makes it balanced.

Think about wings this way.

Let's say it works perfectly as it was originally designed: infinite projectiles reflected for four seconds.

In order to keep 100% uptime you must sacrifice one quarter of your global cooldowns. If you're outnumbered, this won't save you or let you tank infinitely. All it takes is one guy in your face to force you to do something else. Or one CC. Lots of things go through block these days, a mechanic that never existed pre 1.6. it won't save you against a dawnbreaker or a meteor or an EotS or an incap.

Joy_Division

Minalan wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@Joy_Division as I've said in several places, I do think that mDk needs some adjustment and I certainly think some things should be buffed, but I'm a big picture balance guy and there are also some things that will need to be toned down.

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

...

There is a similar balance conundrum brewing with Templar Extended Ritual. It's going to eventually be nerfed or changed, and for good reason, I'm telling you right now. I'm glad it didn't happen last patch because it was obvious ZOS didn't put enough thought into it and it would have been painful. But it is coming.

Neither skill needs a nerf. Wings should have 100% reflect, change the max number of projectiles to 8 instead of 4, leave the duration. DKs have a hard enough time with sustain as it is, 100% uptime on wings is difficult to keep up. A well timed burst combo from a sorc will still kill a DK. Similarly, extended ritual is a good counter to DK DOTs but again, a well timed burst combo with a meteor will kill a templar just fine. Theres nothing wrong with one class being a strong counter to one other class. It increases the skill required to play the game rather than mindless spamming your rotation over and over no matter who you're fighting.

Eight projectiles is way too many. There's a reason they made it four. If you're really that outnumbered, just take the loss and respawn.

Just roll over and die for me! Gosh! I hate it when you fight back!

But but but... I deserve to survive forever with six to eight people beating on me!

Yeah both arguments sound kind of stupid. This isn't TANKING projectiles with a shield or armor, that's different. This is actually sending them back, possibly (hopefully) killing those players.

This is why 4 is a good number, it's a compromise between the 'OMG it's OP' and 'OMG buff this NOW' crowds that neither is happy with. That's what makes it balanced.

What? Those projectiles only get sent back toward those people moronic enough to indiscriminately fire then against a DK. Dying to a Wings is a L2P issue. Non-DKs think its a busted ability but some of the better DK players don't even use them! Check out @Etaniel 's latest video for his logic of why uses mist form instead. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/307222/video-magicka-dk-build-etaniel#latest

DKsUnite

okay i have a solution:
Changes wings to be an umbrella for 7 seconds so we can reflect the destro ulti.

Etaniel

Minalan wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@Joy_Division as I've said in several places, I do think that mDk needs some adjustment and I certainly think some things should be buffed, but I'm a big picture balance guy and there are also some things that will need to be toned down.

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

...

There is a similar balance conundrum brewing with Templar Extended Ritual. It's going to eventually be nerfed or changed, and for good reason, I'm telling you right now. I'm glad it didn't happen last patch because it was obvious ZOS didn't put enough thought into it and it would have been painful. But it is coming.

Neither skill needs a nerf. Wings should have 100% reflect, change the max number of projectiles to 8 instead of 4, leave the duration. DKs have a hard enough time with sustain as it is, 100% uptime on wings is difficult to keep up. A well timed burst combo from a sorc will still kill a DK. Similarly, extended ritual is a good counter to DK DOTs but again, a well timed burst combo with a meteor will kill a templar just fine. Theres nothing wrong with one class being a strong counter to one other class. It increases the skill required to play the game rather than mindless spamming your rotation over and over no matter who you're fighting.

Eight projectiles is way too many. There's a reason they made it four. If you're really that outnumbered, just take the loss and respawn.

Just roll over and die for me! Gosh! I hate it when you fight back!

But but but... I deserve to survive forever with six to eight people beating on me!

Yeah both arguments sound kind of stupid. This isn't TANKING projectiles with a shield or armor, that's different. This is actually sending them back, possibly (hopefully) killing those players.

This is why 4 is a good number, it's a compromise between the 'OMG it's OP' and 'OMG buff this NOW' crowds that neither is happy with. That's what makes it balanced.

If 6 to 8 people rely solely on ranged projectiles to kill you, I really wouldn't see a problem in hard countering them 100% with wings. It wouldn't mean that you can kill them, it means they can't kill you unless they change their strategy.
Just like cloak hard counters 100% anyone without aoe or detection pots.
Just like streak 100% counters anyone without a gapcloser or mobility.
Just like a templar's purify 100% counters a mag dk's dots.

Wings are currently strong in 1v1 and basically useless in open world, even when you don't take into account their bugyness.

BuggeX

Calboy wrote: »

I'm happy where mdks are at. Sure they are underpowered (not as much as magblade) and have a strong following of people wanting to be overpowered. But I think the amount of mdks present in cyrodiil is perfect. Anymore and pvp will be worse than what it currently is.

mag blade is underpowerd? WATH?

Waffennacht

Nvm