Incoming magika dk overlords

Xvorg

Armitas wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

As far as a gap closer, what's wrong with Empowering Chains?

Several things

• If it's dodged no gap close occurs. With the current perma roll auto dodge meta it can take 5 chains for 1 gap close
• It costs a ton because it doesn't have the cost reduction passive that crit charge and invasion have
• The finishing animation window is very long making it hard to combine it with a whip. If the person is on a horse with rapids going the duration is so long that they are out of range before you can even follow up with a whip.
• It has gotten better but it still jams up quite often and will not gap close at all. When it does it's jammed for good until you leave the area.
• The major expedition is unnoticeable
• The calculation is so expansive with the Z axis that the server takes too long to succeed. So when you are trying to gap close into a cluster of enemies and fishing for a target the server never succeeds in accepting a viable target. With crit rush or invasion you can fish around for a target int he cluster and off you go. It might come at a delay or a buffed animation but it works when you need it too.

The only good thing about chains is that it ignores roots just like BE. Just change the darn thing to a target based teleport and be done with it

I want dragon leap as a gap closer, and a ultimate that works like cloak of fire. Bye bye chains.

Armitas

Xvorg wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

As far as a gap closer, what's wrong with Empowering Chains?

Several things

• If it's dodged no gap close occurs. With the current perma roll auto dodge meta it can take 5 chains for 1 gap close
• It costs a ton because it doesn't have the cost reduction passive that crit charge and invasion have
• The finishing animation window is very long making it hard to combine it with a whip. If the person is on a horse with rapids going the duration is so long that they are out of range before you can even follow up with a whip.
• It has gotten better but it still jams up quite often and will not gap close at all. When it does it's jammed for good until you leave the area.
• The major expedition is unnoticeable
• The calculation is so expansive with the Z axis that the server takes too long to succeed. So when you are trying to gap close into a cluster of enemies and fishing for a target the server never succeeds in accepting a viable target. With crit rush or invasion you can fish around for a target int he cluster and off you go. It might come at a delay or a buffed animation but it works when you need it too.

The only good thing about chains is that it ignores roots just like BE. Just change the darn thing to a target based teleport and be done with it

I want dragon leap as a gap closer, and a ultimate that works like cloak of fire. Bye bye chains.

That would really make the dk feel powerful and unique. Could move banner to the draconic line and give us a fire cloak on ardent flame where it can soak up the passives. DK's could gap close ahead into the zerg for the same reasons you send your sorcs in before a push. It would be so much fun to have a cool gap closer.

Solariken

Armitas wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Name one skill that makes a Dk tanky? Haha! Just, haha. How about Choking Talons, Hardened Armor, Coagulating Blood, Reflective Plate, Iron Skin, Burning Heat, Elder Dragon, Scaled Armor, Magma Armor, Igneous Shield, Battle Roar, Helping Hands, and various strong CC. Come on man, what a ridiculous question. They have more inherent tankiness than any other class.

This list is compiled from going on a skill calculator and writing everything down that sounds tanky, rather than being derived from the reality of PvP. In almost every case the only mitigation or protection that occurs in PvP is Crit resistance, shields, dodging and blocking. Armor is almost always 100% penetrated, our shields are garbage and health based, outside of obsidian shard our push button heals are garbage and OS can be dodged. Health recovery is cut in half by defile or vamp which is almost necessary, Magma armor has been broken since beta. The only reliable thing in there is maim and our block reduction passive which will require some building to use and is far less mitigation than you might think. iirc it's around 2-3%

+Healing and health recovery = tankiness

Completely avoiding projectile damage = tankiness

Resource and health return on ult = tankiness

15% enemy damage reduction = tankiness

Bonus block mitigation = tankiness

Crowd control = tankiness

I'm also sick of the argument that Physical and Spell resist values are worthless - nobody opens up on you negating all of your armor. These stats are valuable.

These are white belt mechanics and you should learn to use them to your advantage.

The origin of whitebelt and blackbelt is derived from the dirt of experience that separates the initiate from the experienced in the color of ones belt. The intiates being fresh and white while the experienced has darkened over time. What you listed is aptly named as whitebelt because none of it sourced from the mdk turns someone into a tank which is why you had to couple it with the term tankiness instead to denote the theoretical. Ishmael didnt ask for theory, he asked for fact. I don't mean that as harsh or dramatic, I'm just being literal about it.

Thanks for the unnecessary and turgid lesson in semantics.

How can you say those elements don't contribute to becoming tanky? They are white belt because a player needs a practical understanding of how to actually use them before crafting a more complex build.

Armitas

Solariken wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Name one skill that makes a Dk tanky? Haha! Just, haha. How about Choking Talons, Hardened Armor, Coagulating Blood, Reflective Plate, Iron Skin, Burning Heat, Elder Dragon, Scaled Armor, Magma Armor, Igneous Shield, Battle Roar, Helping Hands, and various strong CC. Come on man, what a ridiculous question. They have more inherent tankiness than any other class.

This list is compiled from going on a skill calculator and writing everything down that sounds tanky, rather than being derived from the reality of PvP. In almost every case the only mitigation or protection that occurs in PvP is Crit resistance, shields, dodging and blocking. Armor is almost always 100% penetrated, our shields are garbage and health based, outside of obsidian shard our push button heals are garbage and OS can be dodged. Health recovery is cut in half by defile or vamp which is almost necessary, Magma armor has been broken since beta. The only reliable thing in there is maim and our block reduction passive which will require some building to use and is far less mitigation than you might think. iirc it's around 2-3%

+Healing and health recovery = tankiness

Completely avoiding projectile damage = tankiness

Resource and health return on ult = tankiness

15% enemy damage reduction = tankiness

Bonus block mitigation = tankiness

Crowd control = tankiness

I'm also sick of the argument that Physical and Spell resist values are worthless - nobody opens up on you negating all of your armor. These stats are valuable.

These are white belt mechanics and you should learn to use them to your advantage.

The origin of whitebelt and blackbelt is derived from the dirt of experience that separates the initiate from the experienced in the color of ones belt. The intiates being fresh and white while the experienced has darkened over time. What you listed is aptly named as whitebelt because none of it sourced from the mdk turns someone into a tank which is why you had to couple it with the term tankiness instead to denote the theoretical. Ishmael didnt ask for theory, he asked for fact. I don't mean that as harsh or dramatic, I'm just being literal about it.

How can you say those elements don't contribute to becoming tanky? They are white belt because a player needs a practical understanding of how to actually use them before crafting a more complex build.

I never said they don't contribute. No one will say they don't contribute to becoming tanky, but every class has something that contributes to tankiness. Ishmael said "Name the skills and passives which inherently make DK "tanky"." To which you devised a list of everything you could find that could contribute but none of which inherently make a DK tanky at this moment in PvP. Going on a skill calculator with a pencil and pad and categorizing things isn't the same thing as PvPing.

Xvorg

I don't want an execute. I like the idea of DoT killing (slow but certain death, as my dad used to say). After 1.6 I started playing mageblade since some mechanics were similar to pre 1.6 mDK (evasion, spammable burst, snares, CC, some dots, etc.) and I've never, ever used the execute, because it is unnecessary. On the other hand, the major defile debuff is what I want the most for a spammable skill.

Give it to whip (molten is a great candidate) or embers (i'd even trade the heal if Dragon blood heal is improved).

scorpiodog

Just give an execute like every other class has. 300% damage if opponent is under 50% health would be fair ...
Also add an execute to destro staff, like every other offensive weapon has, and also a Destro staff skill that returns health with damage output. Oh yeah, and also a destro skill that grants major sorcery and a heal of 800 per second. All of that would be completely fair and in line with what stamina builds have available.

I have one MagDK in the works - currently crafting writs mostly. It's hard to get excited about him, though the way things are.

Ishammael

Solariken wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

There is a lot of misconception about mDK going back and forth in this thread, so let's set some things straight.

Right now, and since the IC patch dropped more than one year ago, the mDK has not had the following:
1. Gap Closer
2. Self Heal
3. Maneuverability
4. Execute
The class does not have these things -- objectively. The idea that there are somehow "godly" DKs wandering around Cyrodiil is absurd. Those players are simply better than you. The gameplay instances where DKs excel are those in which their weakness are completely covered by another player: groups or duels. In a duel you don't need that burst heal, gap closer, or maneuverability. In a group, your buddies will heal you and give you speed. The videos you see posted on the forums are highlight reels pulled from hours of frustrating gameplay. I have 10s of GB of videos on my HD of "leet" mDK footage going all the way back to the early 1.6 days. In the current meta, gear sets are so powerful that some of the mDK weakness can be covered by choosing the proper sets. That doesn't mean the DK is in a good place.

The Magicka DK -- its skills and passives -- were completely designed for gameplay mechanics WHICH NO LONGER EXIST, and have not existed since January 2015 (the end of patch 1.5). The main mechanics are: soft caps on stats, dynamic ultimate, real resource management, no Battle Spirit, no CPs.

Now let's address some specifics:
1. Wings. The change to 4 projectiles was overdone in typical fashion. It also does not work properly. Here is what doesn't work: damage reduction by battle spirit also applies a second time after the projectile is reflected, projectiles with DoTs still apply the DoT even if reflected (e.g. Poison Injection), projectiles that cause status effects still cause the effect even if reflected (e.g. Dark Flare heal debuff), projectiles fired from stealth cannot be reflected, sometimes projectiles go through wings even when up (causes unknown).
2. Dragon Blood. If you have 30k total health and are in execute range (10/30k) Dragon Blood can heal you for 20*0.16 = 3.2k at a cost of >3k mana. If you apply Igneous and Volatile you might get 3.2*1.42 = 4.5k... which can't get you out of execute range. If you are heal debuffed, poisoned, or whatever, the skill is useless. Compare this to >15k tooltip Vigor which can TICK for more than DB can heal and scales with weapon damage. Or compare it to BoL which is nearly 6x as efficient (since it hits two people) and scales which spell power / mana.
3. "Tankiness". Name the skills and passives which inherently make DK "tanky". I'll wait. This is a huge misconception. DKs have ONE passive which adds 3k spell resist and ONE passive which adds 10% block dmg reduction. The tankiness that you see on DKs is because people are forced to gear and spec for defense (aka blocking). Evasion on cinder storm was taken away. Dynamic Ultimate for Battle Roar was taken away. A Templar, NB, or Sorc can gear for damage and gain survivability at the same time.
4. Gap Closer / Maneuverability. Chains is useless in open-world PvP. Go try it. Handing out free CC immunity without CC'ing someone is ridiculous. It can't go up slopes. It can be dodged. And since an mDK can't gap close, any player which wishes to survive a fight against a mDK can simply run away. That's right -- people that die to mDK in open world are too stupid to run away. A mDK can't catch you! This also means that if five people see me and decide to all fight -- I must fight and win or die. I can't run! This used to be OK with dynamic ultimate, Dragon Blood, Evasion on Cinder Storm, and Wings. Now its probably the most frustrating part of open world mDK. Notice that exactly zero streamers play mDK. Not Kodi, Sypher, Fengrush.
5. Execute. The mDK was given a janky execute in 1.6 with Molten Weapons. It was good only in a select few Heavy Attack builds. But even that was taken away. mDK doesn't need an execute and shouldn't get one.

I think that if ZoS can address each of these five issues then mDK will be competitive again in open world PvP. Until then it is the worst spec in the game. Here's how I think it should be done to keep the theme of the class:
1. Wings. Fix all the bugs I listed, up the projectile cap to 8. This won't affect duels, still requires 1/4 of all your GCDs to keep up permanently and provides some defense against swarms of players.
2. Dragon Blood. Simply exempt this skill from Battle Spirit. Nothing else.
3. Tankiness. Add Major evasion when standing in cinder storm and make it cast at your feet. Eruption stays the same. Add Minor or Major Heroism to a class passive.
4. Gap closer. Make the Shielded Assault morph cost mana. Chose a morph of the 2H gap closer to cost mana.
5. Execute. No changes. Maybe consider adding Minor Sorcery to a class passive somewhere.

Insulting other people's skill without having any basis doesn't help make your point. It also doesn't change the fact that there are some players doing it right with regard to mDk and they aren't in the desolate state you guys are trying to argue, I'm sorry some of you guys can't see that.

Wings could use a buff, but it needs to lose the 100% projectile immunity for reasons already stated.

Dragon Blood also needs some love, but a simple removal of Battle Spirit isn't the answer.

The pull morph of chains is pretty terrible, but Empowering is fine if they fix the dodge problem.

Name one skill that makes a Dk tanky? Haha! Just, haha. How about Choking Talons, Hardened Armor, Coagulating Blood, Reflective Plate, Iron Skin, Burning Heat, Elder Dragon, Scaled Armor, Magma Armor, Igneous Shield, Battle Roar, Helping Hands, and various strong CC. Come on man, what a ridiculous question. They have more inherent tankiness than any other class.

Major Ward is available in every class
Coagulating blood is horrible as explained. It is strictly inferior to the heals available on every other class.
Wings is bugged, as explained.
Mending is available on Templars. It only lasts 7s anyway.
All classes have CC
Runing choking talons over burning will severely gimp your damage.

So unique to DK is exactly what I said: The spell resist and block dmg passives.

Have you looked at Templar passives? Have you played a Templar?


Look man, I have played mDK in every single meta of this game. I have characters of other classes. It is absolute crap right now.

Of course there are players that "do it right". That doesn't mean that those same players aren't better off on another class. I am 100% better off on my Templar.

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Why?

This forum has a serious case of post traumatic DK syndrome. mDK is the worst template out there: no maneuverability, no burst, no execute, no reliable gap-closer, gimped self heal, needs all three stats. Every way the combat mechanics have changed have undermined them.

DKs don;t struggle because their DoTs get cleansed. Only one class can do that and doing so isn't cheap or threatening the DK in anyway. They did just fine before 1.6 with purgable DoTs. And their wings most certainly do not need to be towned down. If anything they need to be toned up.

ZoS has already tried to fix/buff mDKs twice and we're still waiting. Unless ZoS plans on actually changing the class to better match how ESO has changed over the past 2 1/2 years, DKs are probably still going to be limited and frustrating to play. Duct tapping the right mouse key and having no burst in a "meta" that pretty much requires burst to kill enemy players gets real old real fast. They are decent in 1v1 duels and in groups (because their weaknesses are covered by allies), but in the open world it's an exercise in frustration. There is a reason Sypher hasn't played his main in forever.

Yet magica DKs still hardcounter ranged builds 1v1.

Ishammael

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Why?

This forum has a serious case of post traumatic DK syndrome. mDK is the worst template out there: no maneuverability, no burst, no execute, no reliable gap-closer, gimped self heal, needs all three stats. Every way the combat mechanics have changed have undermined them.

DKs don;t struggle because their DoTs get cleansed. Only one class can do that and doing so isn't cheap or threatening the DK in anyway. They did just fine before 1.6 with purgable DoTs. And their wings most certainly do not need to be towned down. If anything they need to be toned up.

ZoS has already tried to fix/buff mDKs twice and we're still waiting. Unless ZoS plans on actually changing the class to better match how ESO has changed over the past 2 1/2 years, DKs are probably still going to be limited and frustrating to play. Duct tapping the right mouse key and having no burst in a "meta" that pretty much requires burst to kill enemy players gets real old real fast. They are decent in 1v1 duels and in groups (because their weaknesses are covered by allies), but in the open world it's an exercise in frustration. There is a reason Sypher hasn't played his main in forever.

Yet magica DKs still hardcounter ranged builds 1v1.

If the wings reflected 6 or 8 projectiles during 4s rather than the current 4 projectiles would that change the 1v1 situation?

Minalan

Ishammael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Why?

This forum has a serious case of post traumatic DK syndrome. mDK is the worst template out there: no maneuverability, no burst, no execute, no reliable gap-closer, gimped self heal, needs all three stats. Every way the combat mechanics have changed have undermined them.

DKs don;t struggle because their DoTs get cleansed. Only one class can do that and doing so isn't cheap or threatening the DK in anyway. They did just fine before 1.6 with purgable DoTs. And their wings most certainly do not need to be towned down. If anything they need to be toned up.

ZoS has already tried to fix/buff mDKs twice and we're still waiting. Unless ZoS plans on actually changing the class to better match how ESO has changed over the past 2 1/2 years, DKs are probably still going to be limited and frustrating to play. Duct tapping the right mouse key and having no burst in a "meta" that pretty much requires burst to kill enemy players gets real old real fast. They are decent in 1v1 duels and in groups (because their weaknesses are covered by allies), but in the open world it's an exercise in frustration. There is a reason Sypher hasn't played his main in forever.

Yet magica DKs still hardcounter ranged builds 1v1.

If the wings reflected 6 or 8 projectiles during 4s rather than the current 4 projectiles would that change the 1v1 situation?

Lets stop pretending that MDK's aren't freaking evil in a 1v1 duel. I suck at it, but I have some friends that are seriously good.

Open world the biggest problem is mobility. Cyrodiil isn't a duel, and everyone just runs away when they're losing. Here's an idea, why not cut the cost of 'take flight' way down? I don't get why it costs more than incap strike.

And yes, 7 or 8 projectile reflected change would affect a 1v1. A destro staff user animation cancel weaving crushing shock and light attack can burn that down in two seconds taking absolutely minimal damage in return. Do some dueling, this happens all of the time. Wings. Pulse. Pulse. Oh crap frag hits, curse explodes. Cuss out ZOS.

Armitas

Minalan wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Why?

This forum has a serious case of post traumatic DK syndrome. mDK is the worst template out there: no maneuverability, no burst, no execute, no reliable gap-closer, gimped self heal, needs all three stats. Every way the combat mechanics have changed have undermined them.

DKs don;t struggle because their DoTs get cleansed. Only one class can do that and doing so isn't cheap or threatening the DK in anyway. They did just fine before 1.6 with purgable DoTs. And their wings most certainly do not need to be towned down. If anything they need to be toned up.

ZoS has already tried to fix/buff mDKs twice and we're still waiting. Unless ZoS plans on actually changing the class to better match how ESO has changed over the past 2 1/2 years, DKs are probably still going to be limited and frustrating to play. Duct tapping the right mouse key and having no burst in a "meta" that pretty much requires burst to kill enemy players gets real old real fast. They are decent in 1v1 duels and in groups (because their weaknesses are covered by allies), but in the open world it's an exercise in frustration. There is a reason Sypher hasn't played his main in forever.

Yet magica DKs still hardcounter ranged builds 1v1.

If the wings reflected 6 or 8 projectiles during 4s rather than the current 4 projectiles would that change the 1v1 situation?

Lets stop pretending that MDK's aren't freaking evil in a 1v1 duel. I suck at it, but I have some friends that are seriously good.

Open world the biggest problem is mobility. Cyrodiil isn't a duel, and everyone just runs away when they're losing. Here's an idea, why not cut the cost of 'take flight' way down? I don't get why it costs more than incap strike.

And yes, 7 or 8 projectile reflected change would affect a 1v1. A destro staff user animation cancel weaving crushing shock and light attack can burn that down in two seconds taking absolutely minimal damage in return. Do some dueling, this happens all of the time. Wings. Pulse. Pulse. Oh crap frag hits, curse explodes. Cuss out ZOS.

I'm not sure I follow. Wings are pretty tell tale. How do you accidentally cast 8 projectiles in a duel? I don't duel because it's synthetic and unrealistic but I do encounter duelers and those at the top of their class while solo in open world. Most are using a lit staff against a dk, and they stop attacking and shield or dodge the moment they know a volley is going to be returned.

Sanct16

Make Dragonblood a Magicka version of Vigor.

Solariken

Sanct16 wrote: »

Make Dragonblood a Magicka version of Vigor.

Something like that could work but I would personally prefer Echoing Vigor to become a magicka morph. That would be the bee's knees.

I suspect that they will just add more ancillary effects to Dragon Blood rather than boost the healing output.

kadar

BuggeX wrote: »

they working on us Long allready

we were given that awesomne flameball for exemple.
mby the will think about to rework inhale into something "more" usefull.

SneaK wrote: »

World in Ruin - add
Enemies effected by your DoTs/AoEs that fall beneath 40% health take up to 300% more damage from Ardent Flame abilities.

also that, i said it allready 100 times over 2 years, give us a flame execute passive.... and the world would be good.

also decrease the Duration from wings but increase the projectiles.

Dragon blood should be a magicka based heal.

give us a class purge, we die on dots since we cannot supress them like NB or shild them like sorcs.
efficient purge cost me 4,3k magicka with seducer and 3 cost reduction glyphs on azuras, that is no Option.

make Magma Shell usefull for mDKs, increase range and dmg

mby you can think about giving us a leech passive, leeching x% life from Ardent Flame Skills dmg done

we dont want the dmg, we want our tankiness back we used to have

OMG, nOOooOOO! Passive executes are a terrible idea... *coughstamsorccough*

BuggeX

The_Outsider wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

they working on us Long allready

we were given that awesomne flameball for exemple.
mby the will think about to rework inhale into something "more" usefull.

SneaK wrote: »

World in Ruin - add
Enemies effected by your DoTs/AoEs that fall beneath 40% health take up to 300% more damage from Ardent Flame abilities.

also that, i said it allready 100 times over 2 years, give us a flame execute passive.... and the world would be good.

also decrease the Duration from wings but increase the projectiles.

Dragon blood should be a magicka based heal.

give us a class purge, we die on dots since we cannot supress them like NB or shild them like sorcs.
efficient purge cost me 4,3k magicka with seducer and 3 cost reduction glyphs on azuras, that is no Option.

make Magma Shell usefull for mDKs, increase range and dmg

mby you can think about giving us a leech passive, leeching x% life from Ardent Flame Skills dmg done

we dont want the dmg, we want our tankiness back we used to have

OMG, nOOooOOO! Passive executes are a terrible idea... *coughstamsorccough*

yes?why do duall even have 2 of passive executes? the sorc has a execute passive proc?

BuggeX

Solariken wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Make Dragonblood a Magicka version of Vigor.

Something like that could work but I would personally prefer Echoing Vigor to become a magicka morph. That would be the bee's knees.

I suspect that they will just add more ancillary effects to Dragon Blood rather than boost the healing output.

dont you think that would also buff other magicka classes to strong? Image templare with a powerfull hot to
or a sorc

Joy_Division

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Why?

This forum has a serious case of post traumatic DK syndrome. mDK is the worst template out there: no maneuverability, no burst, no execute, no reliable gap-closer, gimped self heal, needs all three stats. Every way the combat mechanics have changed have undermined them.

DKs don;t struggle because their DoTs get cleansed. Only one class can do that and doing so isn't cheap or threatening the DK in anyway. They did just fine before 1.6 with purgable DoTs. And their wings most certainly do not need to be towned down. If anything they need to be toned up.

ZoS has already tried to fix/buff mDKs twice and we're still waiting. Unless ZoS plans on actually changing the class to better match how ESO has changed over the past 2 1/2 years, DKs are probably still going to be limited and frustrating to play. Duct tapping the right mouse key and having no burst in a "meta" that pretty much requires burst to kill enemy players gets real old real fast. They are decent in 1v1 duels and in groups (because their weaknesses are covered by allies), but in the open world it's an exercise in frustration. There is a reason Sypher hasn't played his main in forever.

Yet magica DKs still hardcounter ranged builds 1v1.

Working by design. DK has zero range and zero maneuverability. Or do you think that ranged classes should just be able to eviscerate DKs who would be unable to fight back?

Joy_Division

@Solariken - I don't know what to tell you. By your own admission you don;t even play a mDK and you are trying to tell people who have since launch they you understand the class better than they do. I mean I get it, some of the replies you have gotten have been condescending, but you are telling them even though you haven't even tried playing a DK you are right and they are wrong.

That you have to ask what is wrong with chains is a pretty big indication that you just aren't familiar with what playing a mDK has been like since Feb 2015. As a fellow templar I will say this with 100% honesty, even at its worst state, toppling charge was more reliable and more effective than DK chains. I'll add two very important considerations not on Artimas's list:

1. The pull morph competes with the PVE morph we are expected to take. This means spend 3K to respect every time you want to PvP.
2. The gap closer pales in comparison to what every other gap closer in the game can do. My toppling charge functions as an interrupt, stuns, procs burning light, does more damage. Chains in no way incapacitates the target and does little damage. It's just a terrible skill.

I strongly disagree that gap-closers are overrated. Not only do I find gap closers mandatory for any class who wishes to melee, they are all (except chains), powerful skills that do high damage and inflict strong debuffs - in addition to the ridiculous OP unavoidable snare they put on opponents.

@Ishammael gave a very reasoned and in my estimation accurate assessment of the state of DKs as of right now.

Ish is right about the incorrect perception people have in believing that DKs are tanky whereas the other classes are not. All you did was list DKs defensive skills/passives. I can do the same for sorcerer. 50K+ magicka attained through the class = hardened ward + harness magicka that is just as good if not better than all of that stuff you listed for a DK. On top of those shields, sorc can add a mine field that is far more dangerous to fight in than the DK's eruption. Boundless storm which is better than the DK counterpart because gives the same buff and also allows the sorcerer to move and proc implosion. Dark exchange is way better than helping hands. And if you want to go the pet route, not only can you get stuff that automatically heals you if they die, but also at the press of a button get a bust heal. Plus you get 8% extra health just because for slotting them. Every class can be "tanky" if they use the tools provided to them, DKs are not in and of themselves tanky whereas the other classes are not. What makes the mDK frustrating is sorcerer can shield stack and survive an onslaught of attacks by an opposing player while having, mobility, high damage, and burst at the same time.

To be honest I don't really care if ZoS's development team thinks the way you do and many of the other posters here who do not play DKs yet insist they are comparable. I don't care because I will simply do what I have done for most of my ESO time the past year and half: log my sorcerer and templar for PvP. In fact, if ZoS keeps DKs as the neutered relics of a game system long since dead, it will make my experience with my sorcerer and templar better and more enjoyable because when I see a mDK, I don't have to worry about dying to them. Fine, tell ZoS that mDKs are just fine even though you never seen them even try to open world PvP. I won't argue anymore. Power is very intoxicating. And it is rather convenient to simply ignore enemy players because I know they are not are not particularly threatening.

Solariken

@Joy_Division as I've said in several places, I do think that mDk needs some adjustment and I certainly think some things should be buffed, but I'm a big picture balance guy and there are also some things that will need to be toned down.

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

Just because someone doesn't main a mDk doesn't mean they can't speak intelligently and objectively with regard to balance. You know, this feels a lot like the sorc nerf fiasco wherein the forums were in a frothing rage about all the changes. You and many others rained fire down on me, quoting vague "lack of domain experience" etc despite the fact that on my sorc I had cleared vMA, got to AvA rank 10 (before the AP nerf), and obviously fought a veritable crap ton of Sorcs in duels and open world while on my other characters. But because I don't main a sorc I was somehow disqualified to dissent. Yet it turns out that the sky wasn't falling and the big picture prevailed and Surge, shields, Matriarch, etc are all a little better than before.

There is a similar balance conundrum brewing with Templar Extended Ritual. It's going to eventually be nerfed or changed, and for good reason, I'm telling you right now. I'm glad it didn't happen last patch because it was obvious ZOS didn't put enough thought into it and it would have been painful. But it is coming.

We probably don't agree on any of that, but that's ok, we're all just beating our heads against a wall here anyway. We're all chomping at the bit and can hardly contain our curiosity about what is coming to PTS in a few weeks. No matter what happens though I'm sure Eclipse will still be the worst skill in the game, amirite?

Jaronking

I say make reflective scales no longer have a limit and fixing it so some projectiles don't still hit you would help magic DK a lot.

Also doing something similar to implosion should work while still not making every other Magic DPs useless.

Doing those two things and finally making Green dragon blood not affected by Battlespirt would go a long way of helping Magdk out in PVP.

NBrookus

Solariken wrote: »

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

What you are describing is a skill that would be inferior to shuffle, yet cost a lot more while lasting a fraction of the time. Reduce the cost? Now imagine a stam DK that can afford to keep wings up almost all the time as a magicka sink in addition to running shuffle. Huge buff for a spec that doesn't need one.

While people who play other classes can of course have valuable input, if templar is the only class you pvp on you probably don't really grasp how forgiving that class is. While hard to master (like any class), with the best burst heal and best execute in the game, you can make a lot of mistakes in pvp and not only survive, but kill. Want to play like a mDK? Take BoL, Charge, Dark Flare, Repentance/Aura and Radiant off your bar.

X3ina

Stop saying that wings are OP, light attack and pulse/shock and they are gone. If you can't counter it i dunno what to say

Derra

Ishammael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Why?

This forum has a serious case of post traumatic DK syndrome. mDK is the worst template out there: no maneuverability, no burst, no execute, no reliable gap-closer, gimped self heal, needs all three stats. Every way the combat mechanics have changed have undermined them.

DKs don;t struggle because their DoTs get cleansed. Only one class can do that and doing so isn't cheap or threatening the DK in anyway. They did just fine before 1.6 with purgable DoTs. And their wings most certainly do not need to be towned down. If anything they need to be toned up.

ZoS has already tried to fix/buff mDKs twice and we're still waiting. Unless ZoS plans on actually changing the class to better match how ESO has changed over the past 2 1/2 years, DKs are probably still going to be limited and frustrating to play. Duct tapping the right mouse key and having no burst in a "meta" that pretty much requires burst to kill enemy players gets real old real fast. They are decent in 1v1 duels and in groups (because their weaknesses are covered by allies), but in the open world it's an exercise in frustration. There is a reason Sypher hasn't played his main in forever.

Yet magica DKs still hardcounter ranged builds 1v1.

If the wings reflected 6 or 8 projectiles during 4s rather than the current 4 projectiles would that change the 1v1 situation?

@Ishammael I´d actually be in favor of making wings reflect infinite projectiles again but only for 3 seconds.

X3ina wrote: »

Stop saying that wings are OP, light attack and pulse/shock and they are gone. If you can't counter it i dunno what to say

Shock only counts as 1 projectile for relfect (except if zos bugged that out again).

That means you have to weave two light attack and two shocks to "counter" wings. That equals about 10k reflected dmg + 35% dmg increase given the "correct" morph choice.

Lava_Croft

MagDK is the new MagPlar. Lots of people crying about how it's terrible while in reality it's not that bad at all and in reply to all the crying ZOS will overtune them just like they have done with MagPlars.

Solariken

NBrookus wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

What you are describing is a skill that would be inferior to shuffle, yet cost a lot more while lasting a fraction of the time. Reduce the cost? Now imagine a stam DK that can afford to keep wings up almost all the time as a magicka sink in addition to running shuffle. Huge buff for a spec that doesn't need one.

How is a 40% chance to evade damage inferior to Shuffle's 20%? Also if I'm mathing right, infinite projectiles is greater than the current 4, and 6 seconds is greater than the current 4... And stam Dk's already do combine the two and with enough uptime to effectively shut down ranged builds 1v1.


My suggestion results in a nerf 1v1 but a huge buff 1vX.

Ishammael

Derra wrote: »

@Ishammael I´d actually be in favor of making wings reflect infinite projectiles again but only for 3 seconds.

That's a good idea, to be honest. Maybe one morph can give speed?

Derra wrote: »

That means you have to weave two light attack and two shocks to "counter" wings. That equals about 10k reflected dmg + 35% dmg increase given the "correct" morph choice.

Unfortunately, the "increased dmg" morph of wings does not actually increase damage. This is because the reflected projectile double dips into Battle Spirit -- once when it is initially shot that the DK and once when it is reflected. The increased damage morph used to work back in 1.6. But it hasn't worked in a long time now.

Joy_Division

@Solariken -

Better for who? Wings at 100% (well, at least intended, DKs wings have never reflected 100%) reflection and always doing damage to an opponent over 4 seconds >>>>>> 40% chance of not getting hit and 20% doing damage to an opponent over 6 seconds. Also that is introducing RNG to PvP which should not be a large determining factor. It's amazing that people are still looking to nerf DKs.

Here is the big difference with the sorc nerf fiasco. I played my sorc after I told Wrobel that he messed up and quickly realized I was wrong and said so. Multiple times. As long as shield stacking is still a thing, that class has a busted mechanic that grants its glass cannon spec incomparable survivability to what its other 3 counterparts can do with an all damage spec. I played my DK in every single iteration of the game after 1.6 patch and it has been a square peg to round hole. The only reason it I found it playable during 1.6 was because whips went through dodge roll (i.e. a bugged skill). Once ZoS fixed that, it has always been the same: either get in a group so your weaknesses are covered or be prepared to get pissed off. In short, the weakness of the mDK is not theoretical.

Was is Extended Ritual getting changed? Because of more whining from people who complain when other classes have unique powers that forces them to actually think how to approach a fight? Or are we supposed to neuter every classes's signature defensive skill so we can take thinking and tactics completely out of the playing such that all that is necessary to win PvP is to mindlessly hit the left mouse button such that the opponent can do nothing to counter? We already nerfed all of these skills (streak, cloak, ritual, wings), why are we nerfing them again? TTK is once again already too low and I already feel compelled to walk around in heavy armor / 30K plus health and yet people are still whining that their opponents dare not insta-die to their stupid Viper+resource poison+stun+heal debuff + heavy attack + velidreth 25K damage combo. I fight templars all the time and don't have an problem dealing with extended ritual.

I'm not saying that if you don;t play a class you can;t speak intelligently about that, however your assessments are always coming from that of an outsider and an enemy. Even if that does not automatically make you biased, it does prevent you from grasping the full picture. Your assessments do not come from your experience playing, rather other players experience playing it, which means we are introducing a variable you do not know how to account for: the other player's skill level.

And the worst skill in the game is quick siphon. Go ahead and try to use that as HoT against a 2H roll build and compare the incoming healing done between the great offensive weapon's skill rally and quick siphon, which comes from a weapon designed to heal that does absolutely nothing else. Though I will say eclipse isn't too far behind.

Durham

Chain - broke in PVP
Take Flight - deeply affected by pvp lag ... and sometimes bugs out...
Wings - does not work like the tool tip suggests no 35% in damage...

-Green Dragon blood been nurfed intothe ground
-No burst on the class
-Only way to heal effectively is when there is an enemy next to them... this is why duels are still strong for DK ...
- No class mobility

Magicka DK not the best magicka class I would say #3 in open world PVP
Stam DK dead last in open world PVP except for the proc meta builds #3 in that category...

The problem is PVE the DK performs very well here... most people PVE....

Solariken

Well @Joy_Division I'm sorry that you regard all of my input as tainted because you view me as outsider/enemy to the class (again despite the fact that I have a max level mag and stam version of every class...). However in reality that view is completely false. I want balance, uniqueness, and competitiveness for all classes and lots of viable build options for each. Furthermore, I actually have less fun with a class whenever it becomes meta FOTM which is why my stam sorc and magplar are on hiatus this patch.

It sure would be great if ZOS would just hammer out a few of the wacky design problems with the class before buffing outright. For example just make Power Lash proc on any hard CC or root rather than just off-balance. Voila, PvP damage and self-healing are more accessible and consistent and you don't have to flop that noodle around like a spaz all the time.

Armitas

If what they say is true when a dodge is proced it creates a dodge I-frame in which everything is dodged. At 40% and under heavy fire it may never fail to proc an I-frame every second making the DK completely immune to projectiles. I am not sure that is whats intended here.

I don't like the idea of 20% no reflected damage. That means the person has a 80% chance of no consequence to firing a projectile. Can I get an 80% chance of no consequence for walking through mines? I can't even gap close through them without possibly triggering them all at once. I'm also really exhausted with RNG.