Incoming magika dk overlords

rteezy

So i read on the zone chat that zenimax said they would "work on magika dks"

is that true? do we know more about it? what needs to eb changed?


I jsut started playing eso, and i got say playing a stam dk with tremor/sselene and viper is the most boring and one dimension play style i have evr experienced in any mmo. Jsut want to know if i should start llvling destor staff and practice vet maelstrom so i can in the future farm an inferno staff there

Alucardo

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

Calboy

I hope they don't make dots unpurgable. That would be crap. If anything I hope they actually make dots do alot more damage over time than direct damage abilities and if you aren't purging then your life is going to be miserable. Honestly what's the point of a purgable dot that has the same tool tip as an instant cast ability.

Solariken

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Lexxypwns

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Templar counters DK dots, but all the roots and CCs work to counter sweeps and keep the Templar defensive

Vaoh

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Templar counters DK dots, but all the roots and CCs work to counter sweeps and keep the Templar defensive

Well say goodbye to that.

I have a feeling that the "Balance" Patch will seek to further remove counterplay. I would not be surprised if Magicka DK's DoT became unpurgeable, or they gained a new way to stack snares.

Whatever happens, it's getting tougher and tougher to think that ZOS will improve PvP rather than further ruin it.

Rohamad_Ali

It's about time . MagDK has been suffering a long time and just recently have been useful with some new sets doing more of the work then the class . MagicDK suffered some of the hardest nerfs after their last reign . I can only hope it's a good update for them as we take chances with a certain dev lol .

I hope and hope Magblade is soon for help next . It takes a lot of work to make Magblade playable as well and we are really relying on a limited amount of gear sets that do most of the work as well instead of the class .

Joy_Division

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Why?

This forum has a serious case of post traumatic DK syndrome. mDK is the worst template out there: no maneuverability, no burst, no execute, no reliable gap-closer, gimped self heal, needs all three stats. Every way the combat mechanics have changed have undermined them.

DKs don;t struggle because their DoTs get cleansed. Only one class can do that and doing so isn't cheap or threatening the DK in anyway. They did just fine before 1.6 with purgable DoTs. And their wings most certainly do not need to be towned down. If anything they need to be toned up.

ZoS has already tried to fix/buff mDKs twice and we're still waiting. Unless ZoS plans on actually changing the class to better match how ESO has changed over the past 2 1/2 years, DKs are probably still going to be limited and frustrating to play. Duct tapping the right mouse key and having no burst in a "meta" that pretty much requires burst to kill enemy players gets real old real fast. They are decent in 1v1 duels and in groups (because their weaknesses are covered by allies), but in the open world it's an exercise in frustration. There is a reason Sypher hasn't played his main in forever.

Solariken

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Why?

This forum has a serious case of post traumatic DK syndrome. mDK is the worst template out there: no maneuverability, no burst, no execute, no reliable gap-closer, gimped self heal, needs all three stats. Every way the combat mechanics have changed have undermined them.

DKs don;t struggle because their DoTs get cleansed. Only one class can do that and doing so isn't cheap or threatening the DK in anyway. They did just fine before 1.6 with purgable DoTs. And their wings most certainly do not need to be towned down. If anything they need to be toned up.

ZoS has already tried to fix/buff mDKs twice and we're still waiting. Unless ZoS plans on actually changing the class to better match how ESO has changed over the past 2 1/2 years, DKs are probably still going to be limited and frustrating to play. Duct tapping the right mouse key and having no burst in a "meta" that pretty much requires burst to kill enemy players gets real old real fast. They are decent in 1v1 duels and in groups (because their weaknesses are covered by allies), but in the open world it's an exercise in frustration. There is a reason Sypher hasn't played his main in forever.

@Joy_Division you know as well as I do that ZOS is most likely to go too far with the buffs, probably worse than they did with stamsorc (funny I'm actually writing this after my most recent death coming from an 11k Implosion FFS). No hate for stam Sorcs though, Stormcalling is hands down the most well-designed class skill line currently IMO.

Tone up wings though? That skill can already shut down multiple ranged builds simultaneously - mDk is basically untargetable for all ranged builds until all other enemy players are dead. Why does it need a buff? I would like to see it become a longer duration (8s) but 50% chance to reflect. That would at least allow ranged builds to engage them.

I also don't think mDk needs any boost to burst, I would rather see burst damage, healing, and regen brought down a bit for certain specs/skills (and those gawddamn proc sets) to allow for a reasonable TTK and counterplay but inevitable resource exhaustion. It honestly can't be that hard to find a happy balance - ZOS just doesn't even try.

There are a handful of mDks that I run into regularly that are already pretty godly, especially thanks to the destro ult. I can attest to the fact that there is a build sweet spot for mDk between damage output and mitigation that lets mDk 1v1 and 1vX really well, and it doesn't require block-casting everything. Perhaps the biggest risk here though is accidentally buffing stamina Dk which in no way needs a buff.

I personally hope that ZOS goes a LOT further in this balance update than just spending time on mDk. Class design is so half-baked in this game and there are a ton of skills and passives that just don't work, don't synergize, or are grossly out of place.

AzuraKin

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

LOL if you are using extended ritual to remove purges you are doing cleansing all wrong.

extended ritual only removes on cast neg effects on caster, not allies. allies have to synergize to remove neg effects.

cleanse on the other hand cleanses allies without them needing to synergize to do so as well as heals 17% of max health for every neg effect removed. sure it costs more but its heal is not based on your resources but on allies max health. which if you think about it, a group usually has 2-3 healers and 1-2 tanks per 12 players in group in pvp. so even at low end so lets say a group of 24 has the ideal max, 4 tanks 6 healers leaving 14 dps. now lets suppose of these 6 healers, 2 are running high regen builds. so lets do some math. these 2 healers are running 7p light 5p seducer, 5p lich. they are running repentance plus every support skill including ultimate on bar (cleanse is support skill). so from light armor they get a 21% cost reduction to skill (around 8800 base) they also get 16% from cp, another 8% from seducer and thought i havent mentioned it yet, 2 of the other healers are wearing worm (5%). this equals out to 50% reduction of the skill or reduces it to 4400 cost. or roughly 8800 regen needed for sustain casting. seducer grants 2 passives as well as lich for regen so 4 total, 7p light grants 28% boost to regen as well as 25% from cp. also 3 enchants for regen grant a 161 regen per enchant. base regen is about 540 magicka regen. vampirism also adds another 10% regen making for a total of 1539 base regen in this build. total regen becomes 4800-5000 before lich set proc. what this does it allows when needed a healer to spam cleanse for a good bit of time. as when lich procs that is another 900 * boosts = 3080 regen for total aof about 7800-8000. which means onces lich procs, you have a virtual sustained use of cleanse for about 25s.

almost forgot that is not including use of potions every 45s.

Sharee

Solariken wrote: »

Tone up wings though? That skill can already shut down multiple ranged builds simultaneously - mDk is basically untargetable for all ranged builds until all other enemy players are dead. Why does it need a buff?

I have a video somewhere getting knocked down by a frag while the wing animation was still only halfway through(that means the reflect was gone ~0.5 seconds after i cast it). And that was just against two opponents.

That's why.

Joy_Division

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Why?

This forum has a serious case of post traumatic DK syndrome. mDK is the worst template out there: no maneuverability, no burst, no execute, no reliable gap-closer, gimped self heal, needs all three stats. Every way the combat mechanics have changed have undermined them.

DKs don;t struggle because their DoTs get cleansed. Only one class can do that and doing so isn't cheap or threatening the DK in anyway. They did just fine before 1.6 with purgable DoTs. And their wings most certainly do not need to be towned down. If anything they need to be toned up.

ZoS has already tried to fix/buff mDKs twice and we're still waiting. Unless ZoS plans on actually changing the class to better match how ESO has changed over the past 2 1/2 years, DKs are probably still going to be limited and frustrating to play. Duct tapping the right mouse key and having no burst in a "meta" that pretty much requires burst to kill enemy players gets real old real fast. They are decent in 1v1 duels and in groups (because their weaknesses are covered by allies), but in the open world it's an exercise in frustration. There is a reason Sypher hasn't played his main in forever.

@Joy_Division you know as well as I do that ZOS is most likely to go too far with the buffs, probably worse than they did with stamsorc (funny I'm actually writing this after my most recent death coming from an 11k Implosion FFS). No hate for stam Sorcs though, Stormcalling is hands down the most well-designed class skill line currently IMO.

Tone up wings though? That skill can already shut down multiple ranged builds simultaneously - mDk is basically untargetable for all ranged builds until all other enemy players are dead. Why does it need a buff? I would like to see it become a longer duration (8s) but 50% chance to reflect. That would at least allow ranged builds to engage them.

I also don't think mDk needs any boost to burst, I would rather see burst damage, healing, and regen brought down a bit for certain specs/skills (and those gawddamn proc sets) to allow for a reasonable TTK and counterplay but inevitable resource exhaustion. It honestly can't be that hard to find a happy balance - ZOS just doesn't even try.

There are a handful of mDks that I run into regularly that are already pretty godly, especially thanks to the destro ult. I can attest to the fact that there is a build sweet spot for mDk between damage output and mitigation that lets mDk 1v1 and 1vX really well, and it doesn't require block-casting everything. Perhaps the biggest risk here though is accidentally buffing stamina Dk which in no way needs a buff.

I personally hope that ZOS goes a LOT further in this balance update than just spending time on mDk. Class design is so half-baked in this game and there are a ton of skills and passives that just don't work, don't synergize, or are grossly out of place.

Can't say I agree. Which is fine, actually. Most people seem to be worried about the Big Bad Scary pre 1.5 DK. They disagree with me but I contend they are allowed past fragmented memories to cloud their judgement rather than what mDKs are actually doing in Cyrodiil right now.

I do not know that ZoS is going to go too far with buffs. As I said they already buffed mDK twice and it's still frustrating to play. Stam sorcs, stam in gereral, and templars are strong right now not so much ZoS bufed them (indeed, in the case with templars they did not, the pre-IC templar was better by a fair bit), but because of other changes in the "meta" (proc sets, heavy armor, black rose, etc, ... though I think the Implosion passive is too strong).

Wings never needed the nerf because all the change does is enabled zerging down a DK. 4 reflects means wings still shuts down a ranged opponent in a 1v1 ... which is totally ass backwards: it should not be that a DK susceptible to zerg ranged attack but have it lock down a single ranged opponent. Can't say I'm a fan of RNG, so the 50% reflect idea is not something I would go for. As long as the DK is immobile and has no ranged attacks, then it should work the way it did before 1.6.

I do not agree that DKs do just fine and since they can use a busted destro ult to kill people, then ZoS should basically stand pat and give them nothing more than token bug-fix and small tweaks. "Godly"? No way. Let's not confuse player skill with class effectiveness. Or are we complaining that players like Hanzo, DragonPowers, Vortexman, the AD DK with the long name that begins with an E that can tank a zerg for 5 minutes make the class busted?

I got a new computer this June so I reinstalled my game and the kill counter add-on. The statistics are pretty interesting. Do you know what percentage of DKs killed me? 9%! That's including stam DKs (which nobody will say are weak) and stupid stuff like oil being dropped. You might think that's because people aren't playing them. Not true: 21% of all players I have killed are DKs...pretty close to the 1/4 perfect split. mDKs have not killed me the past 6 months I am dubious to the prospect they kill other players all that often. This isn't just on my templar. They kill me less often on my sorcerer (who whined and complained about DKs before 1.6). There are two main types of mDKs I run into: those that just hold block and talon spam (the majority) and those who try the light armor thing and spam that annoying flame clench spell, the latter I feel sorry for because they are light armor, no mobility, and using a weapon that cant kill anything except with a highly questionable ultimate (but one I do not have problems surviving against).

Armitas

The only thing wings are mostly good for now is not having to spend the stamina to block or dodge.

• They reflect frags which immediately impact on sorc shields because shields are cast in between each attack
• They reflect force pulse if you have them up already or have enough time to react to the visual.
• They reflect some of the bowtatos in the back but any decent stam build is animation canceling poison injection so there is no animation to re-actively cast wings.
• Many projectiles go through it when they shouldn't

That is about all they do now. They are no longer a source of damage like they used to be. Besides bar swap animation canceling and shield weaving more and more people are using addon's like combat cloud that literately tell you when to block or dodge without having to rely on visuals. I also suspect there are programs out there that that will automatically dodge for you based on that same internal feature within the game.

There isn't any solo place for a mDK when there is a zerg around. Temps can BS or RS, sorcs can wrath spam the zerg, nb can assassinate and bail. If we want to use DK skills we have to go into the middle of the zerg where reflect will go down in 1 second from 2 projectile weaves. The moment RS is down you will get hit by the rain of poison injections and snipes always in the air and be spiked or defiled. Our only real survival is block, and to do so we have to invest in blocking thereby losing a lot of damage. There is no parallel survival and offense in the mDK. It's one or the other.

Jsmalls

As a Sorc a mDK's wings is most certainly a hard counter to our class. Reflects our weave, spammable, and burst ability. We are left with curse and endless fury, ever try to burst an opponent with those 2 skills only? Trust me you aren't going to have a good time.

Not saying we can't beat them but it usually depends on them making a mistake (have to count out those wings. So if you're evenly matched players, you're at a major disadvantage.

Alucardo

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

This is just what I *think* ZOS will do, not exactly what I want. I still don't think it's a bad idea, but there's other things I'd rather see.

Solariken wrote: »

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

I mean, why not? mDKs move like a turtle and have no self healing. They need to be within melee range to get a good heal, so a sniper could just use them as a pincushion. This prevents that from happening.

Solariken wrote: »

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Naw man, I can't agree with you there based on what I wrote above.

Saint_Bud

A Gabcloser and a working heal. GDB and no real gabcloser on a melle based class must be an joke but its real.

Solariken

As far as a gap closer, what's wrong with Empowering Chains? I understand why people get frustrated with the pulling morph, but doesn't Empowering do the job since they changed it to always bring you to the target?

Gap closers are pretty overrated IMO anyway. I don't even use one on most of my builds - as long as you have a way to dump snares you can play perfectly well without one. You are also less likely to get yourself killed by charging into a bad situation.

Disclaimer: I admit I don't play my mDk that often and I'm not the most experienced with the class, not because I think it sucks but because I don't care for the flavor or playstyle.

Belicourt

I think that somewhere in 1.6 lies the magdk that we need. I say this because, imo, a big reason that the dk was nerfed into the ground was because a lot of things in the game for other classes were broken.

Now that other classes can stand on their own legs it is reasonable to partially resurrect the mag dk. Instead of nerfing some of the op stam classes just rework some of the under-powered mag classes - more people will be made happy that way. Minus proc sets and EoTS, burst damage in general can stay the same if ZoS wants to do less work the way we know they want to and makes sense for a business. Other modifications metionable would be a pinch o buff to samplar, a good burst buff/pinch of sustain to magblade, and a complete revisit to mag dk pressure, sustain and heals...

Solariken wrote: »

Tone up wings though? That skill can already shut down multiple ranged builds simultaneously - mDk is basically untargetable for all ranged builds until all other enemy players are dead. Why does it need a buff? I would like to see it become a longer duration (8s) but 50% chance to reflect. That would at least allow ranged builds to engage them.

This can't be the answer as, in zos' eyes (and rightfully so), this will *** off the pve players. The amount is mostly a side thought, i think that the duration is the bigger issue like you say, 8s. Maybe unlimited reflects was a little too op and still too op, so a buff of 6 projectiles for eight seconds makes sense to me under the current game-state.

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

Seems really dangerous, not to mention has no counter-play, for them to make the dots unpurgable. In my eyes a better rework would be to add-on one of the passives that is "heat stroke - each dot purged exponentially damages the magicka of the oposing player." something weird like that seems fun and inventive. It causes the opposing player to think about what they are purging. but as @Joy_Division said, they may not need to be touched anyway...

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

It's about time . MagDK has been suffering a long time and just recently have been useful with some new sets doing more of the work then the class . MagicDK suffered some of the hardest nerfs after their last reign . I can only hope it's a good update for them as we take chances with a certain dev lol .

What bothers me about this is it wasn't a scenario where they were like ok, lets take all clothes off of the character and do a comprehensive test of each class in each combination with a controlled group to create balance. Sets fixing a class is bad balance practice (take notes zos) because with each cp gear increase or even patch, whole builds become nullified when they lose that gear. Not that i'm not having fun taking full advantage of them .

Finally, the other things that haven't been really mentioned is sustain and healing (which are obviously intertwined). IMHO sustain/heals is the biggest problem that the dk has right now, and that is why everything else suffers. There is no chicken or egg argument, lack of health and resources begets low damage and magnifies skill uselessness. One of only two fixes are clear to me; A passive of dynamic ulti gen that scales off of max magkica or an across the board ability cost reduction to mag dk abilities and morphs. (side note edit: if you don't do the ulti gen thing, then dragon's blood needs to be buffed...)

I didn't recognize mobility as an issue because to keep flavor in the game you can't make it like a shootout, this is not an fps where we use the same tool to end each-other. These other buffs are needed to keep original intention of the magdk concept. Keeping original intention of the mag dk concept is important because many other classes as well as mechanics in the game were made with that in mind. To change the mag dk fundamentally would mean you'd have to rework a plethora of other things in the game that they would probably not even think about.

sorry about the long post.

SneaK

World in Ruin - add
Enemies effected by your DoTs/AoEs that fall beneath 40% health take up to 300% more damage from Ardent Flame abilities.

Elder Dragon - add
Decreases cost of Draconic Power abilities by 20-30%.

Solariken

@Joy_Division while I love those kind of stats as much as the next person, it's not really giving a clear picture. All the kiddies and streamer fanboys are running stam Sorcs and Nightblades and mTemplars... for reasons other than mDk not being an effective option.

Regarding wings I agree it is ass backwards - I would love to see every class have a defensive tool that is more powerful against a zerg than a single player, but I don't know if I've ever heard a good idea for this.

I'm calling it now though - if all ZOS does is buff mDk damage output, self-healing, and give them an execute, they will be gods again. They have all the other tools necessary for world domination - Fossilize, Talons, Wings, Major Mending, awesome resource return, etc. They're poised to rule the roost again at the slightest mis-buff.

Armitas

Solariken wrote: »

As far as a gap closer, what's wrong with Empowering Chains?

Several things

• If it's dodged no gap close occurs. With the current perma roll auto dodge meta it can take 5 chains for 1 gap close
• It costs a ton because it doesn't have the cost reduction passive that crit charge and invasion have
• The finishing animation window is very long making it hard to combine it with a whip. If the person is on a horse with rapids going the duration is so long that they are out of range before you can even follow up with a whip.
• It has gotten better but it still jams up quite often and will not gap close at all. When it does it's jammed for good until you leave the area.
• The major expedition is unnoticeable
• The calculation is so expansive with the Z axis that the server takes too long to succeed. So when you are trying to gap close into a cluster of enemies and fishing for a target the server never succeeds in accepting a viable target. With crit rush or invasion you can fish around for a target int he cluster and off you go. It might come at a delay or a buffed animation but it works when you need it too.

The only good thing about chains is that it ignores roots just like BE. Just change the darn thing to a target based teleport and be done with it

Ishammael

There is a lot of misconception about mDK going back and forth in this thread, so let's set some things straight.

Right now, and since the IC patch dropped more than one year ago, the mDK has not had the following:
1. Gap Closer
2. Self Heal
3. Maneuverability
4. Execute
The class does not have these things -- objectively. The idea that there are somehow "godly" DKs wandering around Cyrodiil is absurd. Those players are simply better than you. The gameplay instances where DKs excel are those in which their weakness are completely covered by another player: groups or duels. In a duel you don't need that burst heal, gap closer, or maneuverability. In a group, your buddies will heal you and give you speed. The videos you see posted on the forums are highlight reels pulled from hours of frustrating gameplay. I have 10s of GB of videos on my HD of "leet" mDK footage going all the way back to the early 1.6 days. In the current meta, gear sets are so powerful that some of the mDK weakness can be covered by choosing the proper sets. That doesn't mean the DK is in a good place.

The Magicka DK -- its skills and passives -- were completely designed for gameplay mechanics WHICH NO LONGER EXIST, and have not existed since January 2015 (the end of patch 1.5). The main mechanics are: soft caps on stats, dynamic ultimate, real resource management, no Battle Spirit, no CPs.

Now let's address some specifics:
1. Wings. The change to 4 projectiles was overdone in typical fashion. It also does not work properly. Here is what doesn't work: damage reduction by battle spirit also applies a second time after the projectile is reflected, projectiles with DoTs still apply the DoT even if reflected (e.g. Poison Injection), projectiles that cause status effects still cause the effect even if reflected (e.g. Dark Flare heal debuff), projectiles fired from stealth cannot be reflected, sometimes projectiles go through wings even when up (causes unknown).
2. Dragon Blood. If you have 30k total health and are in execute range (10/30k) Dragon Blood can heal you for 20*0.16 = 3.2k at a cost of >3k mana. If you apply Igneous and Volatile you might get 3.2*1.42 = 4.5k... which can't get you out of execute range. If you are heal debuffed, poisoned, or whatever, the skill is useless. Compare this to >15k tooltip Vigor which can TICK for more than DB can heal and scales with weapon damage. Or compare it to BoL which is nearly 6x as efficient (since it hits two people) and scales which spell power / mana.
3. "Tankiness". Name the skills and passives which inherently make DK "tanky". I'll wait. This is a huge misconception. DKs have ONE passive which adds 3k spell resist and ONE passive which adds 10% block dmg reduction. The tankiness that you see on DKs is because people are forced to gear and spec for defense (aka blocking). Evasion on cinder storm was taken away. Dynamic Ultimate for Battle Roar was taken away. A Templar, NB, or Sorc can gear for damage and gain survivability at the same time.
4. Gap Closer / Maneuverability. Chains is useless in open-world PvP. Go try it. Handing out free CC immunity without CC'ing someone is ridiculous. It can't go up slopes. It can be dodged. And since an mDK can't gap close, any player which wishes to survive a fight against a mDK can simply run away. That's right -- people that die to mDK in open world are too stupid to run away. A mDK can't catch you! This also means that if five people see me and decide to all fight -- I must fight and win or die. I can't run! This used to be OK with dynamic ultimate, Dragon Blood, Evasion on Cinder Storm, and Wings. Now its probably the most frustrating part of open world mDK. Notice that exactly zero streamers play mDK. Not Kodi, Sypher, Fengrush.
5. Execute. The mDK was given a janky execute in 1.6 with Molten Weapons. It was good only in a select few Heavy Attack builds. But even that was taken away. mDK doesn't need an execute and shouldn't get one.

I think that if ZoS can address each of these five issues then mDK will be competitive again in open world PvP. Until then it is the worst spec in the game. Here's how I think it should be done to keep the theme of the class:
1. Wings. Fix all the bugs I listed, up the projectile cap to 8. This won't affect duels, still requires 1/4 of all your GCDs to keep up permanently and provides some defense against swarms of players.
2. Dragon Blood. Simply exempt this skill from Battle Spirit. Nothing else.
3. Tankiness. Add Major evasion when standing in cinder storm and make it cast at your feet. Eruption stays the same. Add Minor or Major Heroism to a class passive.
4. Gap closer. Make the Shielded Assault morph cost mana. Chose a morph of the 2H gap closer to cost mana.
5. Execute. No changes. Maybe consider adding Minor Sorcery to a class passive somewhere.

Minalan

Good god, no buff to wings. The only time I see you guys get hit when casting it is if the projectile is already in mid-flight. Thus the computer has already recorded a hit before the flapping animation finishes.

timidobserver

Outsider perspective from someone that doesn't play a mDK:

Dots are weak in PvP. As long as I get out of the standard/destro ultimate DKs are not dangerous. IMO, PvP in this game is all about burst now and DKs have little of it. At least in PvP, single target/non-channeled dots need a buff.

BuggeX

they working on us Long allready

we were given that awesomne flameball for exemple.
mby the will think about to rework inhale into something "more" usefull.

SneaK wrote: »

World in Ruin - add
Enemies effected by your DoTs/AoEs that fall beneath 40% health take up to 300% more damage from Ardent Flame abilities.

also that, i said it allready 100 times over 2 years, give us a flame execute passive.... and the world would be good.

also decrease the Duration from wings but increase the projectiles.

Dragon blood should be a magicka based heal.

give us a class purge, we die on dots since we cannot supress them like NB or shild them like sorcs.
efficient purge cost me 4,3k magicka with seducer and 3 cost reduction glyphs on azuras, that is no Option.

make Magma Shell usefull for mDKs, increase range and dmg

mby you can think about giving us a leech passive, leeching x% life from Ardent Flame Skills dmg done

we dont want the dmg, we want our tankiness back we used to have

Solariken

Ishammael wrote: »

There is a lot of misconception about mDK going back and forth in this thread, so let's set some things straight.

Right now, and since the IC patch dropped more than one year ago, the mDK has not had the following:
1. Gap Closer
2. Self Heal
3. Maneuverability
4. Execute
The class does not have these things -- objectively. The idea that there are somehow "godly" DKs wandering around Cyrodiil is absurd. Those players are simply better than you. The gameplay instances where DKs excel are those in which their weakness are completely covered by another player: groups or duels. In a duel you don't need that burst heal, gap closer, or maneuverability. In a group, your buddies will heal you and give you speed. The videos you see posted on the forums are highlight reels pulled from hours of frustrating gameplay. I have 10s of GB of videos on my HD of "leet" mDK footage going all the way back to the early 1.6 days. In the current meta, gear sets are so powerful that some of the mDK weakness can be covered by choosing the proper sets. That doesn't mean the DK is in a good place.

The Magicka DK -- its skills and passives -- were completely designed for gameplay mechanics WHICH NO LONGER EXIST, and have not existed since January 2015 (the end of patch 1.5). The main mechanics are: soft caps on stats, dynamic ultimate, real resource management, no Battle Spirit, no CPs.

Now let's address some specifics:
1. Wings. The change to 4 projectiles was overdone in typical fashion. It also does not work properly. Here is what doesn't work: damage reduction by battle spirit also applies a second time after the projectile is reflected, projectiles with DoTs still apply the DoT even if reflected (e.g. Poison Injection), projectiles that cause status effects still cause the effect even if reflected (e.g. Dark Flare heal debuff), projectiles fired from stealth cannot be reflected, sometimes projectiles go through wings even when up (causes unknown).
2. Dragon Blood. If you have 30k total health and are in execute range (10/30k) Dragon Blood can heal you for 20*0.16 = 3.2k at a cost of >3k mana. If you apply Igneous and Volatile you might get 3.2*1.42 = 4.5k... which can't get you out of execute range. If you are heal debuffed, poisoned, or whatever, the skill is useless. Compare this to >15k tooltip Vigor which can TICK for more than DB can heal and scales with weapon damage. Or compare it to BoL which is nearly 6x as efficient (since it hits two people) and scales which spell power / mana.
3. "Tankiness". Name the skills and passives which inherently make DK "tanky". I'll wait. This is a huge misconception. DKs have ONE passive which adds 3k spell resist and ONE passive which adds 10% block dmg reduction. The tankiness that you see on DKs is because people are forced to gear and spec for defense (aka blocking). Evasion on cinder storm was taken away. Dynamic Ultimate for Battle Roar was taken away. A Templar, NB, or Sorc can gear for damage and gain survivability at the same time.
4. Gap Closer / Maneuverability. Chains is useless in open-world PvP. Go try it. Handing out free CC immunity without CC'ing someone is ridiculous. It can't go up slopes. It can be dodged. And since an mDK can't gap close, any player which wishes to survive a fight against a mDK can simply run away. That's right -- people that die to mDK in open world are too stupid to run away. A mDK can't catch you! This also means that if five people see me and decide to all fight -- I must fight and win or die. I can't run! This used to be OK with dynamic ultimate, Dragon Blood, Evasion on Cinder Storm, and Wings. Now its probably the most frustrating part of open world mDK. Notice that exactly zero streamers play mDK. Not Kodi, Sypher, Fengrush.
5. Execute. The mDK was given a janky execute in 1.6 with Molten Weapons. It was good only in a select few Heavy Attack builds. But even that was taken away. mDK doesn't need an execute and shouldn't get one.

I think that if ZoS can address each of these five issues then mDK will be competitive again in open world PvP. Until then it is the worst spec in the game. Here's how I think it should be done to keep the theme of the class:
1. Wings. Fix all the bugs I listed, up the projectile cap to 8. This won't affect duels, still requires 1/4 of all your GCDs to keep up permanently and provides some defense against swarms of players.
2. Dragon Blood. Simply exempt this skill from Battle Spirit. Nothing else.
3. Tankiness. Add Major evasion when standing in cinder storm and make it cast at your feet. Eruption stays the same. Add Minor or Major Heroism to a class passive.
4. Gap closer. Make the Shielded Assault morph cost mana. Chose a morph of the 2H gap closer to cost mana.
5. Execute. No changes. Maybe consider adding Minor Sorcery to a class passive somewhere.

Insulting other people's skill without having any basis doesn't help make your point. It also doesn't change the fact that there are some players doing it right with regard to mDk and they aren't in the desolate state you guys are trying to argue, I'm sorry some of you guys can't see that.

Wings could use a buff, but it needs to lose the 100% projectile immunity for reasons already stated.

Dragon Blood also needs some love, but a simple removal of Battle Spirit isn't the answer.

The pull morph of chains is pretty terrible, but Empowering is fine if they fix the dodge problem.

Name one skill that makes a Dk tanky? Haha! Just, haha. How about Choking Talons, Hardened Armor, Coagulating Blood, Reflective Plate, Iron Skin, Burning Heat, Elder Dragon, Scaled Armor, Magma Armor, Igneous Shield, Battle Roar, Helping Hands, and various strong CC. Come on man, what a ridiculous question. They have more inherent tankiness than any other class.

Armitas

Solariken wrote: »

Name one skill that makes a Dk tanky? Haha! Just, haha. How about Choking Talons, Hardened Armor, Coagulating Blood, Reflective Plate, Iron Skin, Burning Heat, Elder Dragon, Scaled Armor, Magma Armor, Igneous Shield, Battle Roar, Helping Hands, and various strong CC. Come on man, what a ridiculous question. They have more inherent tankiness than any other class.

This list is compiled from going on a skill calculator and writing everything down that sounds tanky, rather than being derived from the reality of PvP. In almost every case the only mitigation or protection that occurs in PvP is Crit resistance, shields, dodging and blocking. Armor is almost always 100% penetrated, our shields are garbage and health based, outside of obsidian shard our push button heals are garbage and OS can be dodged. Health recovery is cut in half by defile or vamp which is almost necessary, Magma armor has been broken since beta. The only reliable thing in there is maim and our block reduction passive which will require some building to use and is far less mitigation than you might think. iirc it's around 2-3%

Solariken

Armitas wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Name one skill that makes a Dk tanky? Haha! Just, haha. How about Choking Talons, Hardened Armor, Coagulating Blood, Reflective Plate, Iron Skin, Burning Heat, Elder Dragon, Scaled Armor, Magma Armor, Igneous Shield, Battle Roar, Helping Hands, and various strong CC. Come on man, what a ridiculous question. They have more inherent tankiness than any other class.

This list is compiled from going on a skill calculator and writing everything down that sounds tanky, rather than being derived from the reality of PvP. In almost every case the only mitigation or protection that occurs in PvP is Crit resistance, shields, dodging and blocking. Armor is almost always 100% penetrated, our shields are garbage and health based, outside of obsidian shard our push button heals are garbage and OS can be dodged. Health recovery is cut in half by defile or vamp which is almost necessary, Magma armor has been broken since beta. The only reliable thing in there is maim and our block reduction passive which will require some building to use and is far less mitigation than you might think. iirc it's around 2-3%

+Healing and health recovery = tankiness

Completely avoiding projectile damage = tankiness

Resource and health return on ult = tankiness

15% enemy damage reduction = tankiness

Bonus block mitigation = tankiness

Crowd control = tankiness

I'm also sick of the argument that Physical and Spell resist values are worthless - nobody opens up on you negating all of your armor. These stats are valuable.

These are white belt mechanics and you should learn to use them to your advantage.

Saint_Bud

The problem of mdk tankynes is simple. Blocking coast stam and playing magicka means no great stam pool. No stam no blocking no break free means fast dying.

Armitas

Solariken wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Name one skill that makes a Dk tanky? Haha! Just, haha. How about Choking Talons, Hardened Armor, Coagulating Blood, Reflective Plate, Iron Skin, Burning Heat, Elder Dragon, Scaled Armor, Magma Armor, Igneous Shield, Battle Roar, Helping Hands, and various strong CC. Come on man, what a ridiculous question. They have more inherent tankiness than any other class.

This list is compiled from going on a skill calculator and writing everything down that sounds tanky, rather than being derived from the reality of PvP. In almost every case the only mitigation or protection that occurs in PvP is Crit resistance, shields, dodging and blocking. Armor is almost always 100% penetrated, our shields are garbage and health based, outside of obsidian shard our push button heals are garbage and OS can be dodged. Health recovery is cut in half by defile or vamp which is almost necessary, Magma armor has been broken since beta. The only reliable thing in there is maim and our block reduction passive which will require some building to use and is far less mitigation than you might think. iirc it's around 2-3%

+Healing and health recovery = tankiness

Completely avoiding projectile damage = tankiness

Resource and health return on ult = tankiness

15% enemy damage reduction = tankiness

Bonus block mitigation = tankiness

Crowd control = tankiness

I'm also sick of the argument that Physical and Spell resist values are worthless - nobody opens up on you negating all of your armor. These stats are valuable.

These are white belt mechanics and you should learn to use them to your advantage.

The origin of whitebelt and blackbelt is derived from the dirt of experience that separates the initiate from the experienced in the color of ones belt. The intiates being fresh and white while the experienced has darkened over time. What you listed is aptly named as whitebelt because none of it sourced from the mdk turns someone into a tank which is why you had to couple it with the term tankiness instead to denote the theoretical. Ishmael didnt ask for theory, he asked for fact. I don't mean that as harsh or dramatic, I'm just being literal about it.

NBrookus

I love how some hypothetical mDK buffs have people running in terror already. Only ZOS knows what changes are actually coming. All the hype pretty much guarantees a new crop of mDKs regardless of whether they actually get buffed to a good place. Rejoice... just like every other FOTM reroll most of them will be easy kills.

If you are a templar and dying to mDKs, you are just being outplayed, full stop. The only class that has any reasonable fear of mDK is magsorcs -- not so much because wings negates all their damage since a sorc can easily keep a mDK at range -- but because their two heavy hitting ranged attacks (frags, overload) both happen slow enough to use wings responsively and might end up back in their squishy faces.