Incoming magika dk overlords

Blackfyre20

Solariken wrote: »

@Joy_Division as I've said in several places, I do think that mDk needs some adjustment and I certainly think some things should be buffed, but I'm a big picture balance guy and there are also some things that will need to be toned down.

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

...

There is a similar balance conundrum brewing with Templar Extended Ritual. It's going to eventually be nerfed or changed, and for good reason, I'm telling you right now. I'm glad it didn't happen last patch because it was obvious ZOS didn't put enough thought into it and it would have been painful. But it is coming.

Neither skill needs a nerf. Wings should have 100% reflect, change the max number of projectiles to 8 instead of 4, leave the duration. DKs have a hard enough time with sustain as it is, 100% uptime on wings is difficult to keep up. A well timed burst combo from a sorc will still kill a DK. Similarly, extended ritual is a good counter to DK DOTs but again, a well timed burst combo with a meteor will kill a templar just fine. Theres nothing wrong with one class being a strong counter to one other class. It increases the skill required to play the game rather than mindless spamming your rotation over and over no matter who you're fighting.

Waffennacht

DKs 1v1 are very powerful. (mDKs esp)

In dueling.

Mobility has little to no advantage as your circle is limited and small, there is no running away or staying out of range.
Wings can completely negate oh 90% of some classes abilities.
Major Mending, Vitality, and a heal without a cast time make keeping mDK in execute range impossible.
Ults that reduce damage to 0 can hard counter any ult a sorc has
Able to run BSW without d staff unlike any other class
Spammable dps ability not tied into weapon (meaning BSW and whip can be tied into SnB for huge resistance and hard CC and major defile and fire damage)

These are just some of the reasons, esp Sorcs, are worried about an already incredibly difficult class to kill 1v1 becoming just an insta loss

Solariken

Waffennacht wrote: »

DKs 1v1 are very powerful. (mDKs esp)

In dueling.

Mobility has little to no advantage as your circle is limited and small, there is no running away or staying out of range.
Wings can completely negate oh 90% of some classes abilities.
Major Mending, Vitality, and a heal without a cast time make keeping mDK in execute range impossible.
Ults that reduce damage to 0 can hard counter any ult a sorc has
Able to run BSW without d staff unlike any other class
Spammable dps ability not tied into weapon (meaning BSW and whip can be tied into SnB for huge resistance and hard CC and major defile and fire damage)

These are just some of the reasons, esp Sorcs, are worried about an already incredibly difficult class to kill 1v1 becoming just an insta loss

It's nice to hear more voices of reason in this thread.

It makes total sense that Dk lacks in-class mobility because they have such high control over enemy mobility once in melee range. It sucks not being able to easily run from a zerg but it shouldn't become any easier for the Dk to chase and lock someone down in their house of pain.

Lava_Croft

MagDK's need slight and carefully considered buffs. I really hope ZOS doesn't screw up.

Derra

Lava_Croft wrote: »

MagDK's need slight and carefully considered buffs. I really hope ZOS doesn't screw up.

Xvorg

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DKs 1v1 are very powerful. (mDKs esp)

In dueling.

Mobility has little to no advantage as your circle is limited and small, there is no running away or staying out of range.
Wings can completely negate oh 90% of some classes abilities.
Major Mending, Vitality, and a heal without a cast time make keeping mDK in execute range impossible.
Ults that reduce damage to 0 can hard counter any ult a sorc has
Able to run BSW without d staff unlike any other class
Spammable dps ability not tied into weapon (meaning BSW and whip can be tied into SnB for huge resistance and hard CC and major defile and fire damage)

These are just some of the reasons, esp Sorcs, are worried about an already incredibly difficult class to kill 1v1 becoming just an insta loss

It's nice to hear more voices of reason in this thread.

It makes total sense that Dk lacks in-class mobility because they have such high control over enemy mobility once in melee range. It sucks not being able to easily run from a zerg but it shouldn't become any easier for the Dk to chase and lock someone down in their house of pain.

Yes, DKs have a lack of mobility... and what do they have in turn?

Do they have ranged skills?
Do they have a strong shield?
Do they have a strong heal?
Do they have a burst skill (so they can bite what comes closer)?

Please, enlight me, what do mDKs have to cope with the lack of mobility? After 2 years I haven't found it.

Ishammael

Solariken wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Personally my biggest gripe with dks is resources. Their skills cost so much. I can deal with the lack of mobility, I can deal with no execute, but in order to do that you need to stand your ground. Standing your ground on mDK is hella expensive.
Sure, you get resources back when you activate an Ultimate, but it's not like they have the super ulti generation of a Nightblade.
So in order to sustain, you run something like Seducer, sacrificing damage to cheapen your abilities. Not many other classes are required to make the sacrifices a mdk does.
So cost reduction, a siphoning attacks clone or minor heroism while an earthern heart or draconic power ability is active.. something to help with managing resources a bit better.
The buffs don't need to be huge, just useful.

This is a stam versus magicka issue. All magicka skill lines need their costs reduced.

Stamina gets a passive in every weapon line for a 20% cost reduction (i.e. Like the Ranger passive for bow)

Don't agree with this at all.
Skills need an across the board cost increase because it's too easy to sustain in the CP campaigns. Either that or a complete rework of the cost reduction available in the CP tree.

Those stars (potentially all of them) need to start at .1% and move in linear .1 increments until a cap of 10%.

We... Actually agree (more or less) on something.

Minalan wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Personally my biggest gripe with dks is resources. Their skills cost so much. I can deal with the lack of mobility, I can deal with no execute, but in order to do that you need to stand your ground. Standing your ground on mDK is hella expensive.
Sure, you get resources back when you activate an Ultimate, but it's not like they have the super ulti generation of a Nightblade.
So in order to sustain, you run something like Seducer, sacrificing damage to cheapen your abilities. Not many other classes are required to make the sacrifices a mdk does.
So cost reduction, a siphoning attacks clone or minor heroism while an earthern heart or draconic power ability is active.. something to help with managing resources a bit better.
The buffs don't need to be huge, just useful.

This is a stam versus magicka issue. All magicka skill lines need their costs reduced.

Stamina gets a passive in every weapon line for a 20% cost reduction (i.e. Like the Ranger passive for bow)

Don't agree with this at all.
Skills need an across the board cost increase because it's too easy to sustain in the CP campaigns. Either that or a complete rework of the cost reduction available in the CP tree.

You want to fix resource problems? Start by fixing the unchained passive.

Yeah, for sure. Unchained way too good.

Ishammael

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DKs 1v1 are very powerful. (mDKs esp)

In dueling.

Mobility has little to no advantage as your circle is limited and small, there is no running away or staying out of range.
Wings can completely negate oh 90% of some classes abilities.
Major Mending, Vitality, and a heal without a cast time make keeping mDK in execute range impossible.
Ults that reduce damage to 0 can hard counter any ult a sorc has
Able to run BSW without d staff unlike any other class
Spammable dps ability not tied into weapon (meaning BSW and whip can be tied into SnB for huge resistance and hard CC and major defile and fire damage)

These are just some of the reasons, esp Sorcs, are worried about an already incredibly difficult class to kill 1v1 becoming just an insta loss

It's nice to hear more voices of reason in this thread.

It makes total sense that Dk lacks in-class mobility because they have such high control over enemy mobility once in melee range. It sucks not being able to easily run from a zerg but it shouldn't become any easier for the Dk to chase and lock someone down in their house of pain.

The cognitive dissonance here is unreal.

Both @Joy_Division and I both stated exactly the reasons listed in the post you quotes as to why mDK is good in duels.

Then you go on the say that a mDK can "lock someone down on a house of pain". Do you understand that the reason mDK is good in duels is because the opposing is not allowed to kite or run away against the DK?
Again, one of the primary reasons mDK is strong in duels is because the opponent can't run away!

Lava_Croft wrote: »

MagDK's need slight and carefully considered buffs. I really hope ZOS doesn't screw up.

I agree here.
I stated four small things in my long post earlier: magicka morph of shield charge, restored functionality to Dragon Blood, wings bug-fixed and upped to 6 or 8, minor heroism available a passive or skill.

Alucardo

Minalan wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Personally my biggest gripe with dks is resources. Their skills cost so much. I can deal with the lack of mobility, I can deal with no execute, but in order to do that you need to stand your ground. Standing your ground on mDK is hella expensive.
Sure, you get resources back when you activate an Ultimate, but it's not like they have the super ulti generation of a Nightblade.
So in order to sustain, you run something like Seducer, sacrificing damage to cheapen your abilities. Not many other classes are required to make the sacrifices a mdk does.
So cost reduction, a siphoning attacks clone or minor heroism while an earthern heart or draconic power ability is active.. something to help with managing resources a bit better.
The buffs don't need to be huge, just useful.

This is a stam versus magicka issue. All magicka skill lines need their costs reduced.

Stamina gets a passive in every weapon line for a 20% cost reduction (i.e. Like the Ranger passive for bow)

Don't agree with this at all.
Skills need an across the board cost increase because it's too easy to sustain in the CP campaigns. Either that or a complete rework of the cost reduction available in the CP tree.

You want to fix resource problems? Start by fixing the unchained passive.

How would that help my dk in azuras?

Alucardo

Lava_Croft wrote: »

MagDK's need slight and carefully considered buffs. I really hope ZOS doesn't screw up.

Don't worry man. We can put our trust in Wrobel. I have faith.

Solariken

Xvorg wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DKs 1v1 are very powerful. (mDKs esp)

In dueling.

Mobility has little to no advantage as your circle is limited and small, there is no running away or staying out of range.
Wings can completely negate oh 90% of some classes abilities.
Major Mending, Vitality, and a heal without a cast time make keeping mDK in execute range impossible.
Ults that reduce damage to 0 can hard counter any ult a sorc has
Able to run BSW without d staff unlike any other class
Spammable dps ability not tied into weapon (meaning BSW and whip can be tied into SnB for huge resistance and hard CC and major defile and fire damage)

These are just some of the reasons, esp Sorcs, are worried about an already incredibly difficult class to kill 1v1 becoming just an insta loss

It's nice to hear more voices of reason in this thread.

It makes total sense that Dk lacks in-class mobility because they have such high control over enemy mobility once in melee range. It sucks not being able to easily run from a zerg but it shouldn't become any easier for the Dk to chase and lock someone down in their house of pain.

Yes, DKs have a lack of mobility... and what do they have in turn?

Do they have ranged skills?
Do they have a strong shield?
Do they have a strong heal?
Do they have a burst skill (so they can bite what comes closer)?

Please, enlight me, what do mDKs have to cope with the lack of mobility? After 2 years I haven't found it.

You are trying to lump multiple separate arguments into the mobility issue. Like I said (IMO) the trade off for a lack of mobility is high control over enemy mobility. This is the design niche of the class.

Shields and heals are a separate discussion entirely. I said earlier that I think it would be a good idea to proc Power Lash on a stunned or immobilized target rather than having to noodle twice for a heal. I think it would also be interesting to add a decent HOT to Obsidian Shard if the enemy is knocked down.

pieratsos

@Waffennacht @Solariken
You do not balance the classes around duelling. Seriously saying that mDK is very good in 1v1 so buffing will make them OP against sorcs just doesnt make sesnse. Every single class in the game is good in 1v1. So what does that mean? That we have balance? Its just ridiculous. 1v1 is a controlled environment where u can counter ur opponent and the fact that u can change CP too makes it even worse. Even the worst player in the game can look good in duels. Seriously this nonsense about mDK being good in 1v1 so they are "balanced" has to stop. Its the only class in the game that has to make sacrifices to balance around sustain, survivability and dmg while prety much every other class in the game like sorcs can just dump everything into magicka and call it a day.
And i cant help but laugh when i read about the mDK "house of pain" considering that you can hold a magblade for example into that house of pain and spam him with DOTs and whips that do nothing cause he just spam shields and then out of nowhere a soul tether into assassins will is gonna put the mDK to the ground in less than 2 seconds.
People are not asking for ridiculous things. They do not want mobility and they do not want dmg. Just some specific buffs that will help the mDK hold their ground cause right now besides buggy wings and a couple of passives they have absolutely nothing unique to the class that will actually help them do that. And dont tell me about volatile, snares, major mending etc. Those are prety much available to every other class too and in some cases they are much better than what mDK has. As a matter of fact giving those specific buffs not only will not make them OP but they will still be probably one of the worst classes for open world PVP considering they will still have no mobility and burst. But at least it wont be as frustrating as it is now.

Waffennacht

@pieratsos first no. Sorc has 0 access to major mending without resto staff, same with NB, (now think of stam having absolutely no way to get this EXTREMELY powerful buff.) Snares? DKs the best snare in game, I don't know if NBs or Temps have snares, but I know encase is a pain to land with. DKs have a spammable dps move, unlike sorcs, that can deal 8k dmg in PvP - spammable.

These are NOT "pretty much available to any class" Even more so if you consider you HAVE to run a defensive weapon to get it.

Second, I did not see anything about "No DK buffs" we listed out OUR VIEWS as to WHY we would be CONCERNED BASED ON ZOZ PREVIOUS "fixes"

In fact we stated no opinion other than caution and why as a Sorc Im nervous. These are my opinions, thank you.

Armitas

Dueling is a voluntary arrangement to fight according to predefined rules. There is no such arrangement in the actual pvp game. Dueling is a player developed sub game. The game cannot be balanced based on dueling, dueling is instead self balanced by predefined rules.

ZOS will screw up, either by reality or perception. If the current pecking order budges even a bit it will be perceived as OP and the nerf threads will begin. People are not going to be able to accomplish what they formerly could against the DK, and they will take that frustration to forums whether it's warranted or not.

Lava_Croft

Discussing MagDK buffs just makes me think about the possibility of 1.6 just having been a better balanced 1.5.

Solariken

Ishammael wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DKs 1v1 are very powerful. (mDKs esp)

In dueling.

Mobility has little to no advantage as your circle is limited and small, there is no running away or staying out of range.
Wings can completely negate oh 90% of some classes abilities.
Major Mending, Vitality, and a heal without a cast time make keeping mDK in execute range impossible.
Ults that reduce damage to 0 can hard counter any ult a sorc has
Able to run BSW without d staff unlike any other class
Spammable dps ability not tied into weapon (meaning BSW and whip can be tied into SnB for huge resistance and hard CC and major defile and fire damage)

These are just some of the reasons, esp Sorcs, are worried about an already incredibly difficult class to kill 1v1 becoming just an insta loss

It's nice to hear more voices of reason in this thread.

It makes total sense that Dk lacks in-class mobility because they have such high control over enemy mobility once in melee range. It sucks not being able to easily run from a zerg but it shouldn't become any easier for the Dk to chase and lock someone down in their house of pain.

The cognitive dissonance here is unreal.

Both @Joy_Division and I both stated exactly the reasons listed in the post you quotes as to why mDK is good in duels.

Then you go on the say that a mDK can "lock someone down on a house of pain". Do you understand that the reason mDK is good in duels is because the opposing is not allowed to kite or run away against the DK?
Again, one of the primary reasons mDK is strong in duels is because the opponent can't run away!

Lava_Croft wrote: »

MagDK's need slight and carefully considered buffs. I really hope ZOS doesn't screw up.

I agree here.
I stated four small things in my long post earlier: magicka morph of shield charge, restored functionality to Dragon Blood, wings bug-fixed and upped to 6 or 8, minor heroism available a passive or skill.

@Ishammael I'm a little confused about what your exact point is and whether or not we are just arguing two sides of the same coin; it's hard to see through the combative tone that I read from you guys sometimes (whether or not that is the intent).

So as we've said, mDk enjoys a significant advantage in melee range yet is very difficult to fight (let alone kill) at range. So why do you think the class *needs* a mobility boost? Again, I'm not taunting here, I am just trying to understand the argument.

pieratsos

Waffennacht wrote: »

@pieratsos first no. Sorc has 0 access to major mending without resto staff, same with NB, (now think of stam having absolutely no way to get this EXTREMELY powerful buff.) Snares? DKs the best snare in game, I don't know if NBs or Temps have snares, but I know encase is a pain to land with. DKs have a spammable dps move, unlike sorcs, that can deal 8k dmg in PvP - spammable.

These are NOT "pretty much available to any class" Even more so if you consider you HAVE to run a defensive weapon to get it.

Second, I did not see anything about "No DK buffs" we listed out OUR VIEWS as to WHY we would be CONCERNED BASED ON ZOZ PREVIOUS "fixes"

In fact we stated no opinion other than caution and why as a Sorc Im nervous. These are my opinions, thank you.

First of all leave stam out of the discussion. You do not want to go there. Trust me.
Yeah u are right sorcs do not have major mending. They only have surge, mines and a much better version of volatile. They also do not have a spammable DPS ability that hits for "8k" (would like to see that 8k whip on a normal DK build). They only have a frag that can hit for two times more than that. Nightblades have fear, shadow image, cloak and major evasion. Yeah thats right. Nightblades that are not even designed to be tanky have major evasion in their class and the mDK who is suppose to be in the middle of the fight doesnt. Thats how balanced they are. Not even going to talk about templars.
You have every right to state ur opinion but at least try to be objective.

Ishammael

Solariken wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DKs 1v1 are very powerful. (mDKs esp)

In dueling.

Mobility has little to no advantage as your circle is limited and small, there is no running away or staying out of range.
Wings can completely negate oh 90% of some classes abilities.
Major Mending, Vitality, and a heal without a cast time make keeping mDK in execute range impossible.
Ults that reduce damage to 0 can hard counter any ult a sorc has
Able to run BSW without d staff unlike any other class
Spammable dps ability not tied into weapon (meaning BSW and whip can be tied into SnB for huge resistance and hard CC and major defile and fire damage)

These are just some of the reasons, esp Sorcs, are worried about an already incredibly difficult class to kill 1v1 becoming just an insta loss

It's nice to hear more voices of reason in this thread.

It makes total sense that Dk lacks in-class mobility because they have such high control over enemy mobility once in melee range. It sucks not being able to easily run from a zerg but it shouldn't become any easier for the Dk to chase and lock someone down in their house of pain.

The cognitive dissonance here is unreal.

Both @Joy_Division and I both stated exactly the reasons listed in the post you quotes as to why mDK is good in duels.

Then you go on the say that a mDK can "lock someone down on a house of pain". Do you understand that the reason mDK is good in duels is because the opposing is not allowed to kite or run away against the DK?
Again, one of the primary reasons mDK is strong in duels is because the opponent can't run away!

Lava_Croft wrote: »

MagDK's need slight and carefully considered buffs. I really hope ZOS doesn't screw up.

I agree here.
I stated four small things in my long post earlier: magicka morph of shield charge, restored functionality to Dragon Blood, wings bug-fixed and upped to 6 or 8, minor heroism available a passive or skill.

I'm a little confused about what your exact point is and whether or not we are just arguing two sides of the same coin; it's hard to see through the combative tone that I read from you guys sometimes (whether or not that is the intent).

So as we've said, mDk enjoys a significant advantage in melee range yet is very difficult to fight (let alone kill) at range. So why do you think the class *needs* a mobility boost? Again, I'm not taunting here, I am just trying to understand the argument.

Please refer to @Armitas In the post a few above for the answer to your query.

Xvorg

Solariken wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DKs 1v1 are very powerful. (mDKs esp)

In dueling.

Mobility has little to no advantage as your circle is limited and small, there is no running away or staying out of range.
Wings can completely negate oh 90% of some classes abilities.
Major Mending, Vitality, and a heal without a cast time make keeping mDK in execute range impossible.
Ults that reduce damage to 0 can hard counter any ult a sorc has
Able to run BSW without d staff unlike any other class
Spammable dps ability not tied into weapon (meaning BSW and whip can be tied into SnB for huge resistance and hard CC and major defile and fire damage)

These are just some of the reasons, esp Sorcs, are worried about an already incredibly difficult class to kill 1v1 becoming just an insta loss

It's nice to hear more voices of reason in this thread.

It makes total sense that Dk lacks in-class mobility because they have such high control over enemy mobility once in melee range. It sucks not being able to easily run from a zerg but it shouldn't become any easier for the Dk to chase and lock someone down in their house of pain.

Yes, DKs have a lack of mobility... and what do they have in turn?

Do they have ranged skills?
Do they have a strong shield?
Do they have a strong heal?
Do they have a burst skill (so they can bite what comes closer)?

Please, enlight me, what do mDKs have to cope with the lack of mobility? After 2 years I haven't found it.

You are trying to lump multiple separate arguments into the mobility issue. Like I said (IMO) the trade off for a lack of mobility is high control over enemy mobility. This is the design niche of the class.

Shields and heals are a separate discussion entirely. I said earlier that I think it would be a good idea to proc Power Lash on a stunned or immobilized target rather than having to noodle twice for a heal. I think it would also be interesting to add a decent HOT to Obsidian Shard if the enemy is knocked down.

Ok, now I´m going to tell you what DKs had.

They had a strong heal (in the form of GDB)
They had pretty strong shield (in the form of flappy wings)
They had a strong burst skill (whip, when there were softcaps)

So the discussion is not about what you should give mDKs, but what you should give them back .

I said earlier that I think it would be a good idea to proc Power Lash on a stunned or immobilized target rather than having to noodle twice for a heal.

It is quite an insult that mDKs stronger burst heal (flame lash) first need to meet certain requirements to proc (an off balance enemy) and then the heal is halved due to Battle Spirit. So, to heal efficiently, a MdK needs:

1- Stun/inmo his opponent (4010 magicka in the case of talons)
2- Flame Lash (2700 magicka)
3- Power Lash

Without cost reduction, you need to use 6750 magicka for a burst heal the cheapest. My powerlash heals me for around 10K on PvE. On PvP that's 5K... blessed BS.

My NBS strife heal is around 1.5K . 3 Strifes heal me for almost the same than power slash and do moar dmg while spending 4101 magicka at 28 mts distance. 4 strifes even do more dmg and cost less than the mDK combo. If you throw a 5th strife (6835), then you are slightky over the cost of the combo talons + double whip.

Though the idea is good at a first sight, it is not going to reduce the cost of the heal, neither is going to make the heal more efficient.

Waffennacht

pieratsos wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@pieratsos first no. Sorc has 0 access to major mending without resto staff, same with NB, (now think of stam having absolutely no way to get this EXTREMELY powerful buff.) Snares? DKs the best snare in game, I don't know if NBs or Temps have snares, but I know encase is a pain to land with. DKs have a spammable dps move, unlike sorcs, that can deal 8k dmg in PvP - spammable.

These are NOT "pretty much available to any class" Even more so if you consider you HAVE to run a defensive weapon to get it.

Second, I did not see anything about "No DK buffs" we listed out OUR VIEWS as to WHY we would be CONCERNED BASED ON ZOZ PREVIOUS "fixes"

In fact we stated no opinion other than caution and why as a Sorc Im nervous. These are my opinions, thank you.

Yeah u are right sorcs do not have major mending. They only have surge, mines and a much better version of volatile. They also do not have a spammable DPS ability that hits for "8k" (would like to see that 8k whip on a normal DK build). They only have a frag that can hit for two times more than that. Nightblades have fear, shadow image, cloak and major evasion. Yeah thats right. Nightblades that are not even designed to be tanky have major evasion in their class and the mDK who is suppose to be in the middle of the fight doesnt. Thats how balanced they are. Not even going to talk about templars.
You have every right to state ur opinion but at least try to be objective.

I would have agreed about surge until the nerf. Now vigor is a far superior heal (as is any form of heal in PvP when comparing to surge.) Surge is only used for a way to gain major without being in combat (others may use entropy and forgo surge all together.) To call surge a heal in PvP is to say Blood Alter is resource gain...

Curse and Frag, the ONLY offensive based single target viable abilities sorcs have, unfortunately for sorcs at a 33% proc chance and a literal 3.5 sec timer, the DK can use that break to heal back to full health.

Mines are a good counter as is mist form to mines.

However I'm not trying to claim DK is OP, they are good, I'm worried about ZoS making them OP due to... whatever it is that makes them do what they do lol. As is in 1v1 I would say they are in a great spot and definitely don't wanna see anything nerfed.

But I'll say the same about sorc. It's in a decent spot, but not if it gets nerfed.

Solariken

Xvorg wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DKs 1v1 are very powerful. (mDKs esp)

In dueling.

Mobility has little to no advantage as your circle is limited and small, there is no running away or staying out of range.
Wings can completely negate oh 90% of some classes abilities.
Major Mending, Vitality, and a heal without a cast time make keeping mDK in execute range impossible.
Ults that reduce damage to 0 can hard counter any ult a sorc has
Able to run BSW without d staff unlike any other class
Spammable dps ability not tied into weapon (meaning BSW and whip can be tied into SnB for huge resistance and hard CC and major defile and fire damage)

These are just some of the reasons, esp Sorcs, are worried about an already incredibly difficult class to kill 1v1 becoming just an insta loss

It's nice to hear more voices of reason in this thread.

It makes total sense that Dk lacks in-class mobility because they have such high control over enemy mobility once in melee range. It sucks not being able to easily run from a zerg but it shouldn't become any easier for the Dk to chase and lock someone down in their house of pain.

Yes, DKs have a lack of mobility... and what do they have in turn?

Do they have ranged skills?
Do they have a strong shield?
Do they have a strong heal?
Do they have a burst skill (so they can bite what comes closer)?

Please, enlight me, what do mDKs have to cope with the lack of mobility? After 2 years I haven't found it.

You are trying to lump multiple separate arguments into the mobility issue. Like I said (IMO) the trade off for a lack of mobility is high control over enemy mobility. This is the design niche of the class.

Shields and heals are a separate discussion entirely. I said earlier that I think it would be a good idea to proc Power Lash on a stunned or immobilized target rather than having to noodle twice for a heal. I think it would also be interesting to add a decent HOT to Obsidian Shard if the enemy is knocked down.

Ok, now I´m going to tell you what DKs had.

They had a strong heal (in the form of GDB)
They had pretty strong shield (in the form of flappy wings)
They had a strong burst skill (whip, when there were softcaps)

So the discussion is not about what you should give mDKs, but what you should give them back .

I said earlier that I think it would be a good idea to proc Power Lash on a stunned or immobilized target rather than having to noodle twice for a heal.

It is quite an insult that mDKs stronger burst heal (flame lash) first need to meet certain requirements to proc (an off balance enemy) and then the heal is halved due to Battle Spirit. So, to heal efficiently, a MdK needs:

1- Stun/inmo his opponent (4010 magicka in the case of talons)
2- Flame Lash (2700 magicka)
3- Power Lash

Without cost reduction, you need to use 6750 magicka for a burst heal the cheapest. My powerlash heals me for around 10K on PvE. On PvP that's 5K... blessed BS.

My NBS strife heal is around 1.5K . 3 Strifes heal me for almost the same than power slash and do moar dmg while spending 4101 magicka at 28 mts distance. 4 strifes even do more dmg and cost less than the mDK combo. If you throw a 5th strife (6835), then you are slightky over the cost of the combo talons + double whip.

Though the idea is good at a first sight, it is not going to reduce the cost of the heal, neither is going to make the heal more efficient.

While it's not a silver bullet, the idea does result in a net damage and healing increase and slightly more bursty on both fronts too. Couple that with the Embers heal and I think it'll be hard to scoff at that combo.

Xvorg

Waffennacht wrote: »

@pieratsos first no. Sorc has 0 access to major mending without resto staff, same with NB, (now think of stam having absolutely no way to get this EXTREMELY powerful buff.) Snares? DKs the best snare in game, I don't know if NBs or Temps have snares, but I know encase is a pain to land with. DKs have a spammable dps move, unlike sorcs, that can deal 8k dmg in PvP - spammable.

These are NOT "pretty much available to any class" Even more so if you consider you HAVE to run a defensive weapon to get it.

Second, I did not see anything about "No DK buffs" we listed out OUR VIEWS as to WHY we would be CONCERNED BASED ON ZOZ PREVIOUS "fixes"

In fact we stated no opinion other than caution and why as a Sorc Im nervous. These are my opinions, thank you.

NBs have cripple (a ranged one) and lotus (a gap closer) for snare. Temps have a snare in the form of punct sweep (main spammable), sun fire (both morphs)

We all are concerned about DKs changes, but it must be admited by the whole community that mDKs have been nerfed to the ground. There's no way to play mDK on PvP without permablocking.

pieratsos

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would have agreed about surge until the nerf. Now vigor is a far superior heal (as is any form of heal in PvP when comparing to surge.) Surge is only used for a way to gain major without being in combat (others may use entropy and forgo surge all together.) To call surge a heal in PvP is to say Blood Alter is resource gain...

Curse and Frag, the ONLY offensive based single target viable abilities sorcs have, unfortunately for sorcs at a 33% proc chance and a literal 3.5 sec timer, the DK can use that break to heal back to full health.

Mines are a good counter as is mist form to mines.

However I'm not trying to claim DK is OP, they are good, I'm worried about ZoS making them OP due to... whatever it is that makes them do what they do lol. As is in 1v1 I would say they are in a great spot and definitely don't wanna see anything nerfed.

But I'll say the same about sorc. It's in a decent spot, but not if it gets nerfed.

What are you even talking about. We are talking about mDK. Why on earth are u bringing vigor into the discussion. I told you dont bring stam into the discussion. There is no comparison between stam sorc and mDK. And yeah surge is a very reliable source of heal considering that most mag sorcs are running with thief now. Or at least much better that dragons blood. Seriously if u find that curse and frags are inferior to whip and if u actually believe that sorcs and DK are on the same level in open world PVP then you obviously have no idea about what you are talking about.
If u feel differently then please explain me how mDK is as good as sorc in open world PVP. Not 1v1. Duels have absolutely nothing to do with class balance.

Waffennacht

pieratsos wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would have agreed about surge until the nerf. Now vigor is a far superior heal (as is any form of heal in PvP when comparing to surge.) Surge is only used for a way to gain major without being in combat (others may use entropy and forgo surge all together.) To call surge a heal in PvP is to say Blood Alter is resource gain...

Curse and Frag, the ONLY offensive based single target viable abilities sorcs have, unfortunately for sorcs at a 33% proc chance and a literal 3.5 sec timer, the DK can use that break to heal back to full health.

Mines are a good counter as is mist form to mines.

However I'm not trying to claim DK is OP, they are good, I'm worried about ZoS making them OP due to... whatever it is that makes them do what they do lol. As is in 1v1 I would say they are in a great spot and definitely don't wanna see anything nerfed.

But I'll say the same about sorc. It's in a decent spot, but not if it gets nerfed.

What are you even talking about. We are talking about mDK. Why on earth are u bringing vigor into the discussion. I told you dont bring stam into the discussion. There is no comparison between stam sorc and mDK. And yeah surge is a very reliable source of heal considering that most mag sorcs are running with thief now. Or at least much better that dragons blood. Seriously if u find that curse and frags are inferior to whip and if u actually believe that sorcs and DK are on the same level in open world PVP then you obviously have no idea about what you are talking about.
If u feel differently then please explain me how mDK is as good as sorc in open world PVP. Not 1v1. Duels have absolutely nothing to do with class balance.

I don't give two @$!#s about Open World PvP, there is no balance between 15 players vs 5 is not balance. Eots is not balance. There is no such thing as balance in Open World PvP.

pieratsos

Waffennacht wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would have agreed about surge until the nerf. Now vigor is a far superior heal (as is any form of heal in PvP when comparing to surge.) Surge is only used for a way to gain major without being in combat (others may use entropy and forgo surge all together.) To call surge a heal in PvP is to say Blood Alter is resource gain...

Curse and Frag, the ONLY offensive based single target viable abilities sorcs have, unfortunately for sorcs at a 33% proc chance and a literal 3.5 sec timer, the DK can use that break to heal back to full health.

Mines are a good counter as is mist form to mines.

However I'm not trying to claim DK is OP, they are good, I'm worried about ZoS making them OP due to... whatever it is that makes them do what they do lol. As is in 1v1 I would say they are in a great spot and definitely don't wanna see anything nerfed.

But I'll say the same about sorc. It's in a decent spot, but not if it gets nerfed.

What are you even talking about. We are talking about mDK. Why on earth are u bringing vigor into the discussion. I told you dont bring stam into the discussion. There is no comparison between stam sorc and mDK. And yeah surge is a very reliable source of heal considering that most mag sorcs are running with thief now. Or at least much better that dragons blood. Seriously if u find that curse and frags are inferior to whip and if u actually believe that sorcs and DK are on the same level in open world PVP then you obviously have no idea about what you are talking about.
If u feel differently then please explain me how mDK is as good as sorc in open world PVP. Not 1v1. Duels have absolutely nothing to do with class balance.

I don't give two @$!#s about Open World PvP, there is no balance between 15 players vs 5 is not balance. Eots is not balance. There is no such thing as balance in Open World PvP.

What the heck does numbers or specific abilities being broken have to do with class balance. I like how you believe that balance has nothing to do with open world but has everything to do with 1v1 tho. Keep telling people that mDK is balanced because they are good in 1v1. Im sure everyone will agree with you. Not even going to discuss this even further. You obviously have no idea about what your talking about and i seriously doubt if you even PVP at all. And thats not even a matter of opinion anymore. Its a fact.

BuggeX

Solariken wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DKs 1v1 are very powerful. (mDKs esp)

In dueling.

Mobility has little to no advantage as your circle is limited and small, there is no running away or staying out of range.
Wings can completely negate oh 90% of some classes abilities.
Major Mending, Vitality, and a heal without a cast time make keeping mDK in execute range impossible.
Ults that reduce damage to 0 can hard counter any ult a sorc has
Able to run BSW without d staff unlike any other class
Spammable dps ability not tied into weapon (meaning BSW and whip can be tied into SnB for huge resistance and hard CC and major defile and fire damage)

These are just some of the reasons, esp Sorcs, are worried about an already incredibly difficult class to kill 1v1 becoming just an insta loss

It's nice to hear more voices of reason in this thread.

It makes total sense that Dk lacks in-class mobility because they have such high control over enemy mobility once in melee range. It sucks not being able to easily run from a zerg but it shouldn't become any easier for the Dk to chase and lock someone down in their house of pain.

Yes, DKs have a lack of mobility... and what do they have in turn?

Do they have ranged skills?
Do they have a strong shield?
Do they have a strong heal?
Do they have a burst skill (so they can bite what comes closer)?

Please, enlight me, what do mDKs have to cope with the lack of mobility? After 2 years I haven't found it.

You are trying to lump multiple separate arguments into the mobility issue. Like I said (IMO) the trade off for a lack of mobility is high control over enemy mobility. This is the design niche of the class.

Shields and heals are a separate discussion entirely. I said earlier that I think it would be a good idea to proc Power Lash on a stunned or immobilized target rather than having to noodle twice for a heal. I think it would also be interesting to add a decent HOT to Obsidian Shard if the enemy is knocked down.

OKOK, i cant remember having much controll of enemies. either i face shuffel Spammer beeing immun to my Talon, or Templars purge the Talons, Sorcs Port with Talons, mNB can port or cloak them away,so wahts left? yea i have controll over OTHER MDKS.


you know who has controll over a crownd? sorcs with negate

Waffennacht

Abilities are the backbowne of the game, if you don't achieve balance on this basic of a scale, large scale - such as 15 v 15 battles will nevet be balanced. One OP skill can ruin the balance of such large scale battles, see every complaint thread of eots.

Joy_Division

Waffennacht wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would have agreed about surge until the nerf. Now vigor is a far superior heal (as is any form of heal in PvP when comparing to surge.) Surge is only used for a way to gain major without being in combat (others may use entropy and forgo surge all together.) To call surge a heal in PvP is to say Blood Alter is resource gain...

Curse and Frag, the ONLY offensive based single target viable abilities sorcs have, unfortunately for sorcs at a 33% proc chance and a literal 3.5 sec timer, the DK can use that break to heal back to full health.

Mines are a good counter as is mist form to mines.

However I'm not trying to claim DK is OP, they are good, I'm worried about ZoS making them OP due to... whatever it is that makes them do what they do lol. As is in 1v1 I would say they are in a great spot and definitely don't wanna see anything nerfed.

But I'll say the same about sorc. It's in a decent spot, but not if it gets nerfed.

What are you even talking about. We are talking about mDK. Why on earth are u bringing vigor into the discussion. I told you dont bring stam into the discussion. There is no comparison between stam sorc and mDK. And yeah surge is a very reliable source of heal considering that most mag sorcs are running with thief now. Or at least much better that dragons blood. Seriously if u find that curse and frags are inferior to whip and if u actually believe that sorcs and DK are on the same level in open world PVP then you obviously have no idea about what you are talking about.
If u feel differently then please explain me how mDK is as good as sorc in open world PVP. Not 1v1. Duels have absolutely nothing to do with class balance.

I don't give two @$!#s about Open World PvP, there is no balance between 15 players vs 5 is not balance. Eots is not balance. There is no such thing as balance in Open World PvP.

I don't want balance. I aim for competitive. I'll take not frustrating.

Waffennacht

Double post

pogopwns_ESO

magDK is great rn if you wear the right gear. I would go so far as to say powerful, tho they lack burst, but thats not a problem with Skoria hitting so hard and constantly proccing, well timed fossilize, and meteor. the last thing we need is to unnecessarily rebalance class abilities when proc sets are so out of hand, and the proc/heavy armor meta is what threw the balance off, especially for the solo 1vX community.