Incoming magika dk overlords

NBrookus

Solariken wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

What you are describing is a skill that would be inferior to shuffle, yet cost a lot more while lasting a fraction of the time. Reduce the cost? Now imagine a stam DK that can afford to keep wings up almost all the time as a magicka sink in addition to running shuffle. Huge buff for a spec that doesn't need one.

How is a 40% chance to evade damage inferior to Shuffle's 20%? Also if I'm mathing right, infinite projectiles is greater than the current 4, and 6 seconds is greater than the current 4... And stam Dk's already do combine the two and with enough uptime to effectively shut down ranged builds 1v1.


My suggestion results in a nerf 1v1 but a huge buff 1vX.

You mean if we set aside the absurd cost of the skill, the fact that wings are buggy as hell and don't reflect everything they say they do, and the existence of broken skills that bypass wings entirely?

Wings + Mist Form are pretty much the DK's paper thin defense against getting zerged down. We can't rapids, repeatedly dodge roll, cloak, streak or purge and heal. If now we are maybe possibly reflecting the zerg spamming snipes, destructive clench and dark flares at us while we head for LoS, wings are pointless. (Of course if you are getting gap closer spammed, you aren't getting away at all, but that's not an mDK problem.)

Example #1: Facing an overload sorc? No wings = you die in 2 light attacks. You can cc them after the first one if you are close enough (Fossilize 15 meters), but with no reliable heal, tiny shields and no burst, as soon as they cc break you are dead. And if they are running defensive rune you won't even have a chance to do more than that after you CC them. Unless of course you happen to get lucky with RNG.

Example #2: Facing any stam proctard. You now have a 60% chance of being unable to avoid a huge executing DoT on you even if you play well, identify the potential incoming damage and successfully cast wings before they animation cancel poison injection. Yet you have no reliable heals while they have rally + vigor, and they are going to proc viper every 4 seconds and probably velidreth or tumorscale as well, because your mitigation is being punished by RNG but they are getting extra damage from it.

Want RnG PvP? Here you go.

Whereas shuffle lasts for more than 3x as long AND grants snare immunity. It's no contest. As poorly as wings work now, if they became an expensive gamble I wouldn't slot them. Absorb Magic would be superior to Wings at that point if you can afford the stamina.

Solariken wrote: »

It sure would be great if ZOS would just hammer out a few of the wacky design problems with the class before buffing outright. For example just make Power Lash proc on any hard CC or root rather than just off-balance. Voila, PvP damage and self-healing are more accessible and consistent and you don't have to flop that noodle around like a spaz all the time.

This I totally agree with, but it's not the ZOS way. They throw up huge changes and then everyone has to live with them for months or years.

Lokey0024

I hope they shorten the duration of Dots and keep dmg the same. Fix DB for a heal. Its cool to have a counter class (templar), but to have that class make every class counter you with aoe purge synergy its just stupid. And unpurgable dots, that sounds not broken or glitchy.

Solariken

Armitas wrote: »

If what they say is true when a dodge is proced it creates a dodge I-frame in which everything is dodged. At 40% and under heavy fire it may never fail to proc an I-frame every second making the DK completely immune to projectiles. I am not sure that is whats intended here.

I don't like the idea of 20% no reflected damage. That means the person has a 80% chance of no consequence to firing a projectile. Can I get an 80% chance of no consequence for walking through mines? I can't even gap close through them without possibly triggering them all at once. I'm also really exhausted with RNG.

There wouldn't be an i-frame with Wings because each projectile would have it's own RNG result. I believe the only reason ZOS uses an alleged i-frame for Major Evasion is because there is a dodge animation that coincides.

The sole purpose of my suggestion is to make Dk targetable at range 1v1 but still dangerous to a zerg hurling large numbers of projectiles. There are probably other ways to achieve that but there doesn't seem to be anyone else here that thinks that should be a design goal for the skill. : /

Solariken

Or what about this idea for the base morph of wings:

Flex your scales to reflect the next incoming harmful projectile back to the attacker. For the next X seconds, you have a 30% chance to deflect all additional incoming harmful projectiles causing them to deal no damage.

This preserves the reactive aspect to fend off CFrags etc and is actually better against zergs than the current spam frenzy version. You could also spam the reflect 1v1 if desired but that would burn your magicka, which it should if you are completely shutting down a ranged build 1v1.

Armitas

I did like your flame lash idea.

The only way I can spam wings in a 1v1 is when i'm playing defensivley against a burst sorc. When I do I have to weave resto heavies inbetween. It's mainly used reactivley or to keep up uncertainty about when to safely cast a projectile but there are so many ways to bypass reactive wings. You can animation cancel injections, you can point blank weave a pulse, cc while they are on their back bar, or channel a lit staff. Its going to take a lot of doing to safely get around a burst sorcs mines and you can't drop your defense and trust rng to save you through a wombo sorc combo. There has to be a push button ranged negate for that situation. Without push button heals or mobility its a hard situation with little to no room to give on. If the rumors I have heard are true then this upcoming mDK buff may open up some room for expanding and contracting wings over certain areas. Will have to see how it turns out.

BlackMadara

Solariken wrote: »

Or what about this idea for the base morph of wings:

Flex your scales to reflect the next incoming harmful projectile back to the attacker. For the next X seconds, you have a 30% chance to deflect all additional incoming harmful projectiles causing them to deal no damage.

This preserves the reactive aspect to fend off CFrags etc and is actually better against zergs than the current spam frenzy version. You could also spam the reflect 1v1 if desired but that would burn your magicka, which it should if you are completely shutting down a ranged build 1v1.

That would mean wings would always reflect the light/med attack first and not the ability projectile. RNG defense on abilities is already annoying and unpopular. Wings, in their current state, don't need any type of nerf. 4s of reflecting 2 weaves. It does shut down some types of game play but it is constricted to a defined niche. I think buffing them in a way that makes them more effective in outnumbered combat is fine, but doing so without overturning the skill is tricky.

Solariken

Armitas wrote: »

I did like your flame lash idea.

The only way I can spam wings in a 1v1 is when i'm playing defensivley against a burst sorc. When I do I have to weave resto heavies inbetween. It's mainly used reactivley or to keep up uncertainty about when to safely cast a projectile but there are so many ways to bypass reactive wings. You can animation cancel injections, you can point blank weave a pulse, cc while they are on their back bar, or channel a lit staff. Its going to take a lot of doing to safely get around a burst sorcs mines and you can't drop your defense and trust rng to save you through a wombo sorc combo. There has to be a push button ranged negate for that situation. Without push button heals or mobility its a hard situation with little to no room to give on. If the rumors I have heard are true then this upcoming mDK buff may open up some room for expanding and contracting wings over certain areas. Will have to see how it turns out.

On those notes, WTB magicka Echoing Vigor and a knockback on Stonefist.

I have zero problems with Sorc mines on my Stamplar because a well-timed Javelin evicts them from their little mine fort. Also a HOT like Vigor let's you bust in and eat a couple mines if you really need to.

Minalan

Solariken wrote: »

@Joy_Division as I've said in several places, I do think that mDk needs some adjustment and I certainly think some things should be buffed, but I'm a big picture balance guy and there are also some things that will need to be toned down.

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

Just because someone doesn't main a mDk doesn't mean they can't speak intelligently and objectively with regard to balance. You know, this feels a lot like the sorc nerf fiasco wherein the forums were in a frothing rage about all the changes. You and many others rained fire down on me, quoting vague "lack of domain experience" etc despite the fact that on my sorc I had cleared vMA, got to AvA rank 10 (before the AP nerf), and obviously fought a veritable crap ton of Sorcs in duels and open world while on my other characters. But because I don't main a sorc I was somehow disqualified to dissent. Yet it turns out that the sky wasn't falling and the big picture prevailed and Surge, shields, Matriarch, etc are all a little better than before.

There is a similar balance conundrum brewing with Templar Extended Ritual. It's going to eventually be nerfed or changed, and for good reason, I'm telling you right now. I'm glad it didn't happen last patch because it was obvious ZOS didn't put enough thought into it and it would have been painful. But it is coming.

We probably don't agree on any of that, but that's ok, we're all just beating our heads against a wall here anyway. We're all chomping at the bit and can hardly contain our curiosity about what is coming to PTS in a few weeks. No matter what happens though I'm sure Eclipse will still be the worst skill in the game, amirite?

Magicka DK has been unplayable as far as I can remember.

Sorc was broken and only recently fixed in 1T.
New builds with jewelry.
Max magicka monster pieces.
Unblock-able curse.
Soul assault buff.
Destro ultimate.

It's playable and fun now, but before in Hist it was just terrible.

BuggeX

Solariken wrote: »

Or what about this idea for the base morph of wings:

Flex your scales to reflect the next incoming harmful projectile back to the attacker. For the next X seconds, you have a 30% chance to deflect all additional incoming harmful projectiles causing them to deal no damage.

This preserves the reactive aspect to fend off CFrags etc and is actually better against zergs than the current spam frenzy version. You could also spam the reflect 1v1 if desired but that would burn your magicka, which it should if you are completely shutting down a ranged build 1v1.

why should the mDK beeing targetable in 1v1? the only Thing that make mDK uniq right now are the wings and is invisiblity to all the noob bow spamer. Templar is invisible aiganst any mDK cause he can purge any dmg they have. stop whining arround.

let dk dots bypas all shilds and beeing unable to be purged, then im fine with a nerf to wings

Joy_Division

@Solariken -

You are being unfair with people that disagree with you. You cast off @Ishammael , who offered a very insightful and detailed analysis of what is wrong with DK, as insulting and someone who was ignorant and wrong because he was in a desolate state. You're mad because he said players are better than you? You're the person who said that you run into players that are "godly"!

You flat out said you don't play mDK that often and are asking basic questions like what is wrong with empowering chains, so now you get all bent out of shape when I you don't have the full picture of what it's like to play one? I never said your input was "tainted." Give me a break.

You don;t think ZoS already tried to just "hammer out the few [!] wacky design problems" for the past 2 years? They did! Here is all the stuff ZoS did:

Adjust Shifting Stardard morph from 250 to 200.
Rework Empowering Chains morph to function as a gap closer
Various other fixes in attempt to solve chains targeting issues.
Change "stamina" morphs from fire damage to poison damage.
Alter Burning embers morph to always heal upon additional casting rather than end of spell.
Rework Inferno and its morphs such that one healed and one did damage
Include poison in various "flame damage" passives.
Remove Battlespirit range increase on DK Leap to prevent illegal leaping into keeps.
Change physical portion of burning talons damage to flame damage.
Change target cap on inhale from 3 opponents to 6.
Rework Magma Shell morph to automatically give allies a damage shield
Change obsidian shard morph to give heal
Increased range of stonefist and morphs
Rework molten weapons to grant major sorcery to affect allies
Reworked disorient and damage for fossilize
Adjusted battle roar to grant resources proportional to attribute pools instead of scaling off magicka.

And this is just what I can remember.

Regarding DKs, I don't care about this point. The very fact that this class and this class alone makes people nervous when ZoS hints about buffs or class balance is all that needs to be said. No class is under such scrutiny and fear from the PvP community as the DK. Even if they do become competitive, people will flood the forums with more whining about OP DKs and ignore their own OP abilities on the classes they main.

What I do care is mischaracterizing what I say. I did not say your input was "tainted" so just stop it. I pointed out the correct fact that perspectives come from someone who 1) does not even play the class often and 2) has had to ask mechanical questions such as what's wrong with empowering chains does not have a full, complete picture about playing a DK. Why did you take this so personally? Ever wonder why I hardly comment on NB class? Because I don;t play them all that much and thus I don't have a full, complete picture what it's like to play one. It's not an insult!

Solariken

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Solariken -

You are being way too over-dramatic with people that disagree with you. You cast off @Ishammael , who offered a very insightful and detailed analysis of what is wrong with DK, as insulting and someone who was ignorant and wrong because he was in a desolate state. You're mad because he said players are better than you? You're the person who said that you run into players that are "godly"!

You flat out said you don't play mDK that often and are asking basic questions like what is wrong with empowering chains, so now you get all bent out of shape when I you don't have the full picture of what it's like to play one? I never said your input was "tainted." Give me a break.

You don;t think ZoS already tried to just "hammer out the few [!] wacky design problems" for the past 2 years? They did! Here is all the stuff ZoS did:

Adjust Shifting Stardard morph from 250 to 200.
Rework Empowering Chains morph to function as a gap closer
Various other fixes in attempt to solve chains targeting issues.
Change "stamina" morphs from fire damage to poison damage.
Alter Burning embers morph to always heal upon additional casting rather than end of spell.
Rework Inferno and its morphs such that one healed and one did damage
Include poison in various "flame damage" passives.
Remove Battlespirit range increase on DK Leap to prevent illegal leaping into keeps.
Change physical portion of burning talons damage to flame damage.
Change target cap on inhale from 3 opponents to 6.
Rework Magma Shell morph to automatically give allies a damage shield
Change obsidian shard morph to give heal
Increased range of stonefist and morphs
Rework molten weapons to grant major sorcery to affect allies
Reworked disorient and damage for fossilize
Adjusted battle roar to grant resources proportional to attribute pools instead of scaling off magicka.

And this is just what I can remember.

Regarding DKs, I don't care about this point. The very fact that this class and this class alone makes people nervous when ZoS hints about buffs or class balance is all that needs to be said. No class is under such scrutiny and fear from the PvP community as the DK. Even if they do become competitive, people will flood the forums with more whining about OP DKs and ignore their own OP abilities on the classes they main.

What I do care is mischaracterizing what I say. I did not say your input was "tainted" so just stop it. I pointed out the correct fact that perspectives come from someone who 1) does not even play the class often and 2) has had to ask mechanical questions such as what's wrong with empowering chains does not have a full, complete picture about playing a DK. Why did you take this so personally? Ever wonder why I hardly comment on NB class? Because I don;t play them all that much and thus I don't have a full, complete picture what it's like to play one. It's not an insult!

It would be great though if in general we could keep design discussion focused on actual skills/mechanics/philosophy/etc rather than so many people trying to distort valid arguments or suggestions via subjective experiential clout wars. I'm not really being that dramatic and I assure you I'm not butthurt - I just get sick of the "shut up you don't know!" argument whenever I propose skill/design changes.

The Empowering Chains question was a fair one - it has always worked great for me in PvE and I have never included it in a PvP build because as I said, gap closers are grossly overrated and 9/10 times I'd rather have the skill slot for something else.

The incoming buffs make people nervous because they are already very strong 1v1, and general survivability is nowhere near as bad as many are claiming. Of course people who main mDk are going to accentuate the class weaknesses and try to downplay glaring class strengths in that pursuit, it's human nature.

Maybe they are out of place in this meta, but the meta is going to be upended again next update anyway. And sure ZOS takes forever to make meaningful class updates, but a lot of those changes you listed actually worked out pretty well IMO. Other classes have problems too, but thanks to the loudest forum warriors mDk is the next class to bathe in the same Wrobel seed as stam sorcs.

Stamplars also need a gentle suckle upon that Wrobel teat - they only do alright because of Extended Ritual and several non-class elements, without which they would be garbage and enjoy barely any meaningful synergy with their class trees. But our numbers are too few, Stamplars (and maybe mNb) are destined to be the next underdog.

Ishammael

@Joy_Division you did your best mate. I would give up on this thread.

The OP's fears are totally justified -- that any changes to mDK will make them overpowered in typical ZoS fashion. But as we saw for the first year of the game, into the second year, and still into the third year are forum cries of "OP DK" even though they haven't been viable since the first month or two of 1.6, nearly 18 months ago (and that only because of a bug with whip).

Ishammael

Solariken wrote: »

It would be great though if in general we could keep design discussion focused on actual skills/mechanics/philosophy/etc rather than so many people trying to distort valid arguments or suggestions via subjective experiential clout wars. I'm not really being that dramatic and I assure you I'm not butthurt - I just get sick of the "shut up you don't know!" argument whenever I propose skill/design changes.

Look man, you haven't demonstrated yet in this thread that you actually understand the issues of the class, its history of changes, broken skills, or mechanics.

This isn't a clout issue nor are these things subjective. It is 100% a knowledge and experience issue. I gave you a whole list of facts with numbers which you promptly ignored.

Do yourself a favor and gear an mDK and go play open world PvP solo. Then come back and tell us all about your "godly" class.

thankyourat

I don't understand how people think wings don't counter ranged builds in a 1v1. Every time I fight a mag dk with my magblade it turns into me spamming heavy resto attacks and hoping he gets comfortable and let's his wings go down. If he keeps them up I can't win. Most of the inexperienced dks I've fought do let their wings down but some of the better ones will always beat me because his class counters my class. Mag dk really isn't that bad. Maybe it's not great solo but it's top tier in 1v1 and still really good in group play.

DKsUnite

thankyourat wrote: »

I don't understand how people think wings don't counter ranged builds in a 1v1. Every time I fight a mag dk with my magblade it turns into me spamming heavy resto attacks and hoping he gets comfortable and let's his wings go down. If he keeps them up I can't win. Most of the inexperienced dks I've fought do let their wings down but some of the better ones will always beat me because his class counters my class. Mag dk really isn't that bad. Maybe it's not great solo but it's top tier in 1v1 and still really good in group play.

So why dont you slot a melee ability incase you run into a mDK? You have concealed dont you?

I am *** sick of the argument that wings is too strong because YOU chose to play ranged with no melee attacks. All the *** snipers back in 1.5 whined and whined and whined about wings because they ran 2xbow and wondered why they couldnt do dmg and it got nerfed severely.

It's your decision to run full range, so pay the consequences.

RinaldoGandolphi

Magicka Dk won't be the Overloads of anything next patch.

Magicka Dk still:

Lack mobility
Lack Burst

As long as resource management(face it there has been no such thing as resource management since 1.5 and soft caps) PVP is always going to focus around burst because its impossible to run anyone out of resources the way the game currently is and poisons are a band-aid on a wound that requires surgery

Yes, Magicka DK will be tnaky, yes magicka DK will be capable of putting out decent damage with DOTS, but they won't have the burst say Nightblade, Sorc, or Templa has nor will they have the Sorc or Nightblades mobility.....coupled with Magicka DK has the least and worst amount of ranged attacks in the game....they literlaly have Stone First and Eruption as ranged class attacks...your joking right?

Magicka DK absolutly suck in solo PVP....making Dragon Blood a reliable heal and one of their DOTS a little harder to purge will just make them suck a little less in solo pvp, it def won't make them gods.

I know i played one for about 8 months....do you have any idea how hard it is to kill someone with a Sword and Board magicka DK? You need a stinking Ultimate like Shooting Star or a Desto Ultimate just to kill anyone with half a brain.....

Right now the best thing Magicka DK are for is using 5 Fassala's and Talon spam in a group being a tank and control toon spamming roots, perma blocvking, and infecting everyone with Fassala so your group cna more easily kill people...and its very effect in that role...other then that...meh...might be ok for a Standard every now and then....thats really it...

Ishammael

DKsUnite wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I don't understand how people think wings don't counter ranged builds in a 1v1. Every time I fight a mag dk with my magblade it turns into me spamming heavy resto attacks and hoping he gets comfortable and let's his wings go down. If he keeps them up I can't win. Most of the inexperienced dks I've fought do let their wings down but some of the better ones will always beat me because his class counters my class. Mag dk really isn't that bad. Maybe it's not great solo but it's top tier in 1v1 and still really good in group play.

So why dont you slot a melee ability incase you run into a mDK? You have concealed dont you?

I am *** sick of the argument that wings is too strong because YOU chose to play ranged with no melee attacks. All the *** snipers back in 1.5 whined and whined and whined about wings because they ran 2xbow and wondered why they couldnt do dmg and it got nerfed severely.

It's your decision to run full range, so pay the consequences.

Yeah it's almost unbelievable that people are still complaining about this.

I swear back in 1.5 I would just stand there and let people kill themselves by reflecting projectiles. Doesn't really work now because of the double battle spirit bug. If there ever fixed that wings would do really nice dmg.

thankyourat

DKsUnite wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I don't understand how people think wings don't counter ranged builds in a 1v1. Every time I fight a mag dk with my magblade it turns into me spamming heavy resto attacks and hoping he gets comfortable and let's his wings go down. If he keeps them up I can't win. Most of the inexperienced dks I've fought do let their wings down but some of the better ones will always beat me because his class counters my class. Mag dk really isn't that bad. Maybe it's not great solo but it's top tier in 1v1 and still really good in group play.

So why dont you slot a melee ability incase you run into a mDK? You have concealed dont you?

I am *** sick of the argument that wings is too strong because YOU chose to play ranged with no melee attacks. All the *** snipers back in 1.5 whined and whined and whined about wings because they ran 2xbow and wondered why they couldnt do dmg and it got nerfed severely.

It's your decision to run full range, so pay the consequences.

Well if I go melee than I will be stuck in talons the whole fight. Also if you go destro concealed your burst still comes from assasins will which you can't kill a mag dk without. So your main burst will still be reflected. I'm also not asking for a nerf to wings I'm just saying you have to be crazy if you don't think it's a huge advantage against certain classes. I'm fine with certain classes having advantages over others, but I'm not going to act like wings aren't a complete counter to ranged builds in 1v1.(Lol what's the point of using a destro staff if you make your spammable a melee ranged attack)

DKsUnite

thankyourat wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I don't understand how people think wings don't counter ranged builds in a 1v1. Every time I fight a mag dk with my magblade it turns into me spamming heavy resto attacks and hoping he gets comfortable and let's his wings go down. If he keeps them up I can't win. Most of the inexperienced dks I've fought do let their wings down but some of the better ones will always beat me because his class counters my class. Mag dk really isn't that bad. Maybe it's not great solo but it's top tier in 1v1 and still really good in group play.

So why dont you slot a melee ability incase you run into a mDK? You have concealed dont you?

I am *** sick of the argument that wings is too strong because YOU chose to play ranged with no melee attacks. All the *** snipers back in 1.5 whined and whined and whined about wings because they ran 2xbow and wondered why they couldnt do dmg and it got nerfed severely.

It's your decision to run full range, so pay the consequences.

Well if I go melee than I will be stuck in talons the whole fight. Also if you go destro concealed your burst still comes from assasins will which you can't kill a mag dk without. So your main burst will still be reflected. I'm also not asking for a nerf to wings I'm just saying you have to be crazy if you don't think it's a huge advantage against certain classes. I'm fine with certain classes having advantages over others, but I'm not going to act like wings aren't a complete counter to ranged builds in 1v1.(Lol what's the point of using a destro staff if you make your spammable a melee ranged attack)

tbh, since NB has fear, you can easily time it with their wings recast to open up a burst window long enough to get a assassin's will off and a soul harvest

Joy_Division

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Solariken -

You are being way too over-dramatic with people that disagree with you. You cast off @Ishammael , who offered a very insightful and detailed analysis of what is wrong with DK, as insulting and someone who was ignorant and wrong because he was in a desolate state. You're mad because he said players are better than you? You're the person who said that you run into players that are "godly"!

You flat out said you don't play mDK that often and are asking basic questions like what is wrong with empowering chains, so now you get all bent out of shape when I you don't have the full picture of what it's like to play one? I never said your input was "tainted." Give me a break.

You don;t think ZoS already tried to just "hammer out the few [!] wacky design problems" for the past 2 years? They did! Here is all the stuff ZoS did:

Adjust Shifting Stardard morph from 250 to 200.
Rework Empowering Chains morph to function as a gap closer
Various other fixes in attempt to solve chains targeting issues.
Change "stamina" morphs from fire damage to poison damage.
Alter Burning embers morph to always heal upon additional casting rather than end of spell.
Rework Inferno and its morphs such that one healed and one did damage
Include poison in various "flame damage" passives.
Remove Battlespirit range increase on DK Leap to prevent illegal leaping into keeps.
Change physical portion of burning talons damage to flame damage.
Change target cap on inhale from 3 opponents to 6.
Rework Magma Shell morph to automatically give allies a damage shield
Change obsidian shard morph to give heal
Increased range of stonefist and morphs
Rework molten weapons to grant major sorcery to affect allies
Reworked disorient and damage for fossilize
Adjusted battle roar to grant resources proportional to attribute pools instead of scaling off magicka.

And this is just what I can remember.

Regarding DKs, I don't care about this point. The very fact that this class and this class alone makes people nervous when ZoS hints about buffs or class balance is all that needs to be said. No class is under such scrutiny and fear from the PvP community as the DK. Even if they do become competitive, people will flood the forums with more whining about OP DKs and ignore their own OP abilities on the classes they main.

What I do care is mischaracterizing what I say. I did not say your input was "tainted" so just stop it. I pointed out the correct fact that perspectives come from someone who 1) does not even play the class often and 2) has had to ask mechanical questions such as what's wrong with empowering chains does not have a full, complete picture about playing a DK. Why did you take this so personally? Ever wonder why I hardly comment on NB class? Because I don;t play them all that much and thus I don't have a full, complete picture what it's like to play one. It's not an insult!

It would be great though if in general we could keep design discussion focused on actual skills/mechanics/philosophy/etc rather than so many people trying to distort valid arguments or suggestions via subjective experiential clout wars. I'm not really being that dramatic and I assure you I'm not butthurt - I just get sick of the "shut up you don't know!" argument whenever I propose skill/design changes.

The incoming buffs make people nervous because they are already very strong 1v1, and general survivability is nowhere near as bad as many are claiming. Of course people who main mDk are going to accentuate the class weaknesses and try to downplay glaring class strengths in that pursuit, it's human nature.

Maybe they are out of place in this meta, but the meta is going to be upended again next update anyway. And sure ZOS takes forever to make meaningful class updates, but a lot of those changes you listed actually worked out pretty well IMO. Other classes have problems too, but thanks to the loudest forum warriors mDk is the next class to bathe in the same Wrobel seed as stam sorcs.

We loud forum warriors also get sick and tired of being accused of automatically of falling prey to our biases and presenting disingenuous arguments that are wrong.

Sharee

[nevermind]

BuggeX

thankyourat wrote: »

I don't understand how people think wings don't counter ranged builds in a 1v1. Every time I fight a mag dk with my magblade it turns into me spamming heavy resto attacks and hoping he gets comfortable and let's his wings go down. If he keeps them up I can't win. Most of the inexperienced dks I've fought do let their wings down but some of the better ones will always beat me because his class counters my class. Mag dk really isn't that bad. Maybe it's not great solo but it's top tier in 1v1 and still really good in group play.

if you die to a mDK as mNB you do something wrong

Nser

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

At a GUESS, I would say they are going to make it easier for DoTs to stick (ie: not being able to be purged), and perhaps making Dragonblood a little more useful in PVP.
Having your main source of damage being DoTs is fine, but when a class can just erase them that's a problem. It's not like you can purge wrecking blow or surprise attacks damage.
Considering DKs have no execute ability it really wouldn't be a bad thing if embers and engulfing could not be purged. But for the love of god, if you do this, don't make it work for stam morphs.

I get nervous every time I think about the incoming mDk changes. I would rather see a small nerf/change to Extended Ritual (with compensatory buffs!) than ANY unpurgeable DOTs/debuffs.

At this point it's only fair that Templars shut down mDk DOT builds just like mDk's shut down nearly all ranged builds.

Templar purge and Dk wings are two abilities that actually should be toned down a bit. I personally prefer soft counter mechanics over hard counters. A soft counter gives advantage in a fight, hard counters basically shut down certain build types completely which I feel is overall negative and difficult/impossible to balance.

Why?

This forum has a serious case of post traumatic DK syndrome. mDK is the worst template out there: no maneuverability, no burst, no execute, no reliable gap-closer, gimped self heal, needs all three stats. Every way the combat mechanics have changed have undermined them.

DKs don;t struggle because their DoTs get cleansed. Only one class can do that and doing so isn't cheap or threatening the DK in anyway. They did just fine before 1.6 with purgable DoTs. And their wings most certainly do not need to be towned down. If anything they need to be toned up.

ZoS has already tried to fix/buff mDKs twice and we're still waiting. Unless ZoS plans on actually changing the class to better match how ESO has changed over the past 2 1/2 years, DKs are probably still going to be limited and frustrating to play. Duct tapping the right mouse key and having no burst in a "meta" that pretty much requires burst to kill enemy players gets real old real fast. They are decent in 1v1 duels and in groups (because their weaknesses are covered by allies), but in the open world it's an exercise in frustration. There is a reason Sypher hasn't played his main in forever.

@Joy_Division you know as well as I do that ZOS is most likely to go too far with the buffs, probably worse than they did with stamsorc (funny I'm actually writing this after my most recent death coming from an 11k Implosion FFS). No hate for stam Sorcs though, Stormcalling is hands down the most well-designed class skill line currently IMO.

Tone up wings though? That skill can already shut down multiple ranged builds simultaneously - mDk is basically untargetable for all ranged builds until all other enemy players are dead. Why does it need a buff? I would like to see it become a longer duration (8s) but 50% chance to reflect. That would at least allow ranged builds to engage them.

I also don't think mDk needs any boost to burst, I would rather see burst damage, healing, and regen brought down a bit for certain specs/skills (and those gawddamn proc sets) to allow for a reasonable TTK and counterplay but inevitable resource exhaustion. It honestly can't be that hard to find a happy balance - ZOS just doesn't even try.

There are a handful of mDks that I run into regularly that are already pretty godly, especially thanks to the destro ult. I can attest to the fact that there is a build sweet spot for mDk between damage output and mitigation that lets mDk 1v1 and 1vX really well, and it doesn't require block-casting everything. Perhaps the biggest risk here though is accidentally buffing stamina Dk which in no way needs a buff.

I personally hope that ZOS goes a LOT further in this balance update than just spending time on mDk. Class design is so half-baked in this game and there are a ton of skills and passives that just don't work, don't synergize, or are grossly out of place.

do u think every mdk using wings ?
do u think every mdk using destro ultim?!staves
bro mdk lack of many things and we dont even have space for some skills
i dont even use wings or armor buff cuz i dont have space for it plus wings and many skills cost much
not every one using same things or same setup
atm mdk cant do will in this meta not like b4 ,to.many sets ,dots,pro's ,etc..
-.-

Alucardo

Personally my biggest gripe with dks is resources. Their skills cost so much. I can deal with the lack of mobility, I can deal with no execute, but in order to do that you need to stand your ground. Standing your ground on mDK is hella expensive.
Sure, you get resources back when you activate an Ultimate, but it's not like they have the super ulti generation of a Nightblade.
So in order to sustain, you run something like Seducer, sacrificing damage to cheapen your abilities. Not many other classes are required to make the sacrifices a mdk does.
So cost reduction, a siphoning attacks clone or minor heroism while an earthern heart or draconic power ability is active.. something to help with managing resources a bit better.
The buffs don't need to be huge, just useful.

Minalan

Alucardo wrote: »

Personally my biggest gripe with dks is resources. Their skills cost so much. I can deal with the lack of mobility, I can deal with no execute, but in order to do that you need to stand your ground. Standing your ground on mDK is hella expensive.
Sure, you get resources back when you activate an Ultimate, but it's not like they have the super ulti generation of a Nightblade.
So in order to sustain, you run something like Seducer, sacrificing damage to cheapen your abilities. Not many other classes are required to make the sacrifices a mdk does.
So cost reduction, a siphoning attacks clone or minor heroism while an earthern heart or draconic power ability is active.. something to help with managing resources a bit better.
The buffs don't need to be huge, just useful.

This is a stam versus magicka issue. All magicka skill lines need their costs reduced.

Stamina gets a passive in every weapon line for a 20% cost reduction (i.e. Like the Ranger passive for bow)

pieratsos

Solariken wrote: »

Wings are a great example - it's not good design. If that skill (base morph) lasted 6s and simply gave a 20% chance to deflect projectiles (dealing no damage) and 20% chance to reflect for full damage, with infinite charges for the duration, it would be much better. That would allow ranged builds to engage 1v1 and the skill would scale in power versus a greater number of opponents.

Enough with removing skill and counterplay from the game. We dont need more RNG. Id much rather play as a mDK and have those buggy wings that i know i can at least somehow rely on for defence and/or offense. And i would also prefer to play against a mDK with the current state of wings but still be able with some skill to get a frag when they are down than pray it wont come back to my face because of RNG.

Ishammael

Minalan wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Personally my biggest gripe with dks is resources. Their skills cost so much. I can deal with the lack of mobility, I can deal with no execute, but in order to do that you need to stand your ground. Standing your ground on mDK is hella expensive.
Sure, you get resources back when you activate an Ultimate, but it's not like they have the super ulti generation of a Nightblade.
So in order to sustain, you run something like Seducer, sacrificing damage to cheapen your abilities. Not many other classes are required to make the sacrifices a mdk does.
So cost reduction, a siphoning attacks clone or minor heroism while an earthern heart or draconic power ability is active.. something to help with managing resources a bit better.
The buffs don't need to be huge, just useful.

This is a stam versus magicka issue. All magicka skill lines need their costs reduced.

Stamina gets a passive in every weapon line for a 20% cost reduction (i.e. Like the Ranger passive for bow)

Don't agree with this at all.
Skills need an across the board cost increase because it's too easy to sustain in the CP campaigns. Either that or a complete rework of the cost reduction available in the CP tree.

Solariken

Ishammael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Personally my biggest gripe with dks is resources. Their skills cost so much. I can deal with the lack of mobility, I can deal with no execute, but in order to do that you need to stand your ground. Standing your ground on mDK is hella expensive.
Sure, you get resources back when you activate an Ultimate, but it's not like they have the super ulti generation of a Nightblade.
So in order to sustain, you run something like Seducer, sacrificing damage to cheapen your abilities. Not many other classes are required to make the sacrifices a mdk does.
So cost reduction, a siphoning attacks clone or minor heroism while an earthern heart or draconic power ability is active.. something to help with managing resources a bit better.
The buffs don't need to be huge, just useful.

This is a stam versus magicka issue. All magicka skill lines need their costs reduced.

Stamina gets a passive in every weapon line for a 20% cost reduction (i.e. Like the Ranger passive for bow)

Don't agree with this at all.
Skills need an across the board cost increase because it's too easy to sustain in the CP campaigns. Either that or a complete rework of the cost reduction available in the CP tree.

Those stars (potentially all of them) need to start at .1% and move in linear .1 increments until a cap of 10%.

Xvorg

Alucardo wrote: »

Personally my biggest gripe with dks is resources. Their skills cost so much. I can deal with the lack of mobility, I can deal with no execute, but in order to do that you need to stand your ground. Standing your ground on mDK is hella expensive.
Sure, you get resources back when you activate an Ultimate, but it's not like they have the super ulti generation of a Nightblade.
So in order to sustain, you run something like Seducer, sacrificing damage to cheapen your abilities. Not many other classes are required to make the sacrifices a mdk does.
So cost reduction, a siphoning attacks clone or minor heroism while an earthern heart or draconic power ability is active.. something to help with managing resources a bit better.
The buffs don't need to be huge, just useful.

The worst part of resources in a mDK:

1- You need a decent stam pool to block and gap close (shoeld assault) to make your melee mDK fight. It implies using stam glyphs and sets that buff your stam pool (like Black Rose), otherwise shield assault is not going to work.

2- You need to put spell dmg glyphs in your jewelry to actually do dmg, because you have no natural dmg increase besides it. Stam DKs have certain hep with mountain blessing, but mDK? Just the whip morphs that gives you 100 spell dmg to the ardent flame skills. Forget about magicka recovery.

3- You MUST slot a channeled staff (lightining/resto) to get decent res recover. If you wear black rose, it helps a little, but unless you use molten armaments, those full heavy attacks are not going to do dmg. Since your healing is poor, the better option is a resto staff (which has a nice magicka recove on full heavy attacks). And you feel you will be right with the heals, but what you don't know is
- Rapids is unreliable
- Heal ward is unreliable
- Healing springs must be spammed to be efficient
- All those skills are quite expensive... and you have a small magicka pool with little recovery.

4- And you are forced to use heavy armor, because you have no shields, no stam and a little health pool.

Damage gods? Sorry, that's another movie...

Minalan

Ishammael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Personally my biggest gripe with dks is resources. Their skills cost so much. I can deal with the lack of mobility, I can deal with no execute, but in order to do that you need to stand your ground. Standing your ground on mDK is hella expensive.
Sure, you get resources back when you activate an Ultimate, but it's not like they have the super ulti generation of a Nightblade.
So in order to sustain, you run something like Seducer, sacrificing damage to cheapen your abilities. Not many other classes are required to make the sacrifices a mdk does.
So cost reduction, a siphoning attacks clone or minor heroism while an earthern heart or draconic power ability is active.. something to help with managing resources a bit better.
The buffs don't need to be huge, just useful.

This is a stam versus magicka issue. All magicka skill lines need their costs reduced.

Stamina gets a passive in every weapon line for a 20% cost reduction (i.e. Like the Ranger passive for bow)

Don't agree with this at all.
Skills need an across the board cost increase because it's too easy to sustain in the CP campaigns. Either that or a complete rework of the cost reduction available in the CP tree.

You want to fix resource problems? Start by fixing the unchained passive.