Why hasnt Shuffle been nerfed yet?

Paneross

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

The combat in this game is beyond the definition of broken.

Holy jesus that "RNG"

That's a little too crazy to be ignored.

Sureshawt

Anything that is used successfully against me is over-performing and needs a nerf.

Anything I use is under-performing and needs a buff.

All one needs to do is take a cursory glance at forum postings to confirm this.

Bottom Line:
Player bias is the worst enemy of balance in an MMO.

BTW: Shuffle has good synergy with active dodge rolling. However, Shuffle by itself is pretty lackluster. Test it yourself. Activate shuffle near a mob and let it take swipes at you without active dodge rolling. I doubt you will be impressed as I know I wasn't.

Paneross

Sureshawt wrote: »

BTW: Shuffle has good synergy with active dodge rolling. However, Shuffle by itself is pretty lackluster. Test it yourself. Activate shuffle near a mob and let it take swipes at you without active dodge rolling. I doubt you will be impressed as I know I wasn't.

Tested it multiple times and see the videos above. It's well over 20% and lasts too long compared to other damage negation buffs.

Sureshawt

Paneross wrote: »

Tested it multiple times and see the videos above. It's well over 20% and lasts too long compared to other damage negation buffs.

Don't take snippets that support a predetermined conclusion. During one of my tests I took ~20 hits over the entire duration of Shuffle and never dodged once. If I posted that as a video would it prove Shuffle is broken?

There are times it will proc like crazy and at times it will hardly ever proc (these are outliers that come with any RNG).

If you objectively test Shuffle by itself over a long period of time I'm sure you will see that passive dodge is right about 20%.

Sureshawt

Paneross wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Cut shuffle to six seconds already.

Why? Because you need to make a choice whether to go defensive or offensive.

That would be an acceptable nerf. Make the duration the same as all the wards and shields.

Fair enough...but just make it so dodge works passively 100% of the time like shields and in a way that the dodger can stay on the offensive like you can after casting shields.

Sandman929

Sureshawt wrote: »

Paneross wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Cut shuffle to six seconds already.

Why? Because you need to make a choice whether to go defensive or offensive.

That would be an acceptable nerf. Make the duration the same as all the wards and shields.

Fair enough...but just make it so dodge works passively 100% of the time like shields and in a way that the dodger can stay on the offensive like you can after casting shields.

Dodge roll already works actively, just like shields are active. That's the difference. No magicka character has a passive 20% chance to shield incoming attacks.
If we did, we'd put up shields (the magicka dodge roll) and the passive 20% chance to shield Magi-Shuffle. Then it'd be the same.

Sandman929

Actually it still wouldn't be the same, because magicka has to slot a skill to mitigate damage

Sureshawt

Sandman929 wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Paneross wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Cut shuffle to six seconds already.

Why? Because you need to make a choice whether to go defensive or offensive.

That would be an acceptable nerf. Make the duration the same as all the wards and shields.

Fair enough...but just make it so dodge works passively 100% of the time like shields and in a way that the dodger can stay on the offensive like you can after casting shields.

Dodge roll already works actively, just like shields are active. That's the difference. No magicka character has a passive 20% chance to shield incoming attacks.
If we did, we'd put up shields (the magicka dodge roll) and the passive 20% chance to shield Magi-Shuffle. Then it'd be the same.

When I say passively I mean that once you cast shields it works passively for 100% of their mitigation value for the duration. This lets you then stay on the offense for the duration/value of the shield.

If as the poster suggested that Shuffle should be on 6 seconds then Shuffle should have 100% mitigation value for those 6 seconds so the dodger can stay offensive as well and not be dependent on RNG. This of course wouldn't apply to attacks that are not dodgeable unlike shields which work against everything.

I posted this just to show how stupid the suggested nerf is and that it is being compared to two totally different mechanics.

-Shuffle 20% chance of mitigation for 20 seconds (Mitigates only dodgeable attacks)

-Shields 100% mitigation for 6 seconds (Mitgates everything except Shield Breaker set)

It's a choice and only one is based on RNG while the other is a guarantee. The other gets longer duration for the chance of RNG saving them or doing nothing.

Personally I despise RNG and do not using anything based upon RNG like Shuffle nor the FOTM item proc sets. I want my wins/losses to be determined by skill of player reaction, knowledge and judicious play.

Sureshawt

deleted

Minalan

Sandman929 wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Paneross wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Cut shuffle to six seconds already.

Why? Because you need to make a choice whether to go defensive or offensive.

That would be an acceptable nerf. Make the duration the same as all the wards and shields.

Fair enough...but just make it so dodge works passively 100% of the time like shields and in a way that the dodger can stay on the offensive like you can after casting shields.

Dodge roll already works actively, just like shields are active. That's the difference. No magicka character has a passive 20% chance to shield incoming attacks.
If we did, we'd put up shields (the magicka dodge roll) and the passive 20% chance to shield Magi-Shuffle. Then it'd be the same.

Yes magicka can. Just run the Specter set...

It's craftable, I just wish the set bonuses were better (max magicka)

Sandman929

Sureshawt wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Paneross wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Cut shuffle to six seconds already.

Why? Because you need to make a choice whether to go defensive or offensive.

That would be an acceptable nerf. Make the duration the same as all the wards and shields.

Fair enough...but just make it so dodge works passively 100% of the time like shields and in a way that the dodger can stay on the offensive like you can after casting shields.

Dodge roll already works actively, just like shields are active. That's the difference. No magicka character has a passive 20% chance to shield incoming attacks.
If we did, we'd put up shields (the magicka dodge roll) and the passive 20% chance to shield Magi-Shuffle. Then it'd be the same.

When I say passively I mean that once you cast shields it works passively for 100% of their mitigation value for the duration. This lets you then stay on the offense for the duration/value of the shield.

If as the poster suggested that Shuffle should be on 6 seconds then Shuffle should have 100% mitigation value for those 6 seconds so the dodger can stay offensive as well and not be dependent on RNG. This of course wouldn't apply to attacks that are not dodgeable unlike shields which work against everything.

I posted this just to show how stupid the suggested nerf is and that it is being compared to two totally different mechanics.

-Shuffle 20% chance of mitigation for 20 seconds (Mitigates only dodgeable attacks)

-Shields 100% mitigation for 6 seconds (Mitgates everything except Shield Breaker set)

It's a choice and only one is based on RNG while the other is a guarantee. The other gets longer duration for the chance of RNG saving them or doing nothing.

Personally I despise RNG and do not using anything based upon RNG like Shuffle nor the FOTM item proc sets. I want my wins/losses to be determined by skill of player reaction, knowledge and judicious play.

Shields are 100% for six seconds or as long as they hold, whichever comes first. I'm not in favor of everyone being able to do all the same things, and I think that shields Vs. active dodging is pretty well balanced on it's own. Especially with shields being rightly reduced to six seconds. I'm not a fan of Major Evasion being in the game just because I think it adds a random element that isn't needed.
Active dodging doesn't require a skill slotted and shields do. They both cost a resource and must be initiated by the player. Magicka builds could slot Shuffle, and I'm sure some do, but that doesn't balance either because then magicka builds are giving up 2 slots to mitigation (3 really, but no one is forced to shield stacking, it's a choice), whereas stamina only has to slot 1 for mitigation and actively dodge.

Whether Shuffle is over-performing or not, I don't know for sure. I just know how it seems in game and that's hardly reliable testing. But Major Evasion shouldn't be a thing, IMO. Unless they want to add a means to get Major Focus, where no attack can be dodged.

Syiccal

I use shuffle and while dueling the other day I auto dodged 12/13 attacks let's say my friend wasn't best pleased

smashcats

It seems like a really good skill to me im gonna level it up lol

Toc de Malsvi

Armitas wrote: »

The combat in this game is beyond the definition of broken.

All the dodged attacks are bow attacks. Bow attacks seem to have a higher rate of being dodged, Bow heavy attacks sometimes even play sound and animation of hits but then state dodged or miss. This isn't exclusive to shuffle either, projectiles have a tendency to be dodged even if they were initiated well before or well after a target dodge rolls.

In my experience it is made worse by latency, rendering it extremely ineffective to attempt to attack shuffle users with a bow. I've had times where I literally could not land a hit on a player for 10 seconds or so but they were spacing dodge rolls, using shuffle, and my latency was poor.

Bow heavy attacks are extremely slow and perform extremely poorly against shuffle, effectively when using a bow and facing shuffle+stamina build, you need to spam light attacks while focusing on instant cast skills and direct damage plus CC. Important to note, shuffle appears to proc on DOT ticks.

glavius

CylindricalBox wrote: »

Roll dodge and Major Evasion are actually quite similar. When you activate a roll dodge, you gain immunity to all dodgeable attacks for a short period of time. The exact number is not easy or even possible to derive, but suffice it to say the immunity lasts about one second. Correspondingly, when you dodge an attack with an Evasion buff, you continue to dodge attacks which can be dodged for a short period of time. This functions exactly like roll dodge, only for a much shorter duration.

Asardes wrote: »

evasion base skills as well as morphs shuffle and elude both grant the major evasion - 20% chance to dodge the next attack.

Actually, Major Evasion is not just a 20% chance to dodge the next attack, it is a 20% chance to dodge all (dodgeable) attacks for a very short amount of time. This is what makes the buff so powerful – too powerful, perhaps. This is why attacks seem to miss all at once on a target with Shuffle.

Skills which have multiple hits in a short period of time or in an instant are the most apt illustration of this mechanic. Namely, Biting Jabs, Force Shock, or any sort of light attack, instant skill, bash combination are all keen to be dodged by Major Evasion because a dodge of one hit means a dodge to any and all subsequent hits shortly afterwards.

And just an aside while I'm writing about Shuffle, there is no such thing as a "Shuffle stack." The term probably originates from an old bug with Evasion's duration, which could be refreshed, or "stacked," indefinitely. This bug had no effect on the Major Evasion buff other than its duration, and it has since been fixed.

WRONG. There is no auto dodge period after a shuffle dodge. Test it yourself instead of posting false info.

Anti_Virus

Minalan wrote: »

Sadly this will be ignored, because any nerf to stam will never ever happen with ZOS developers.

Why is this @ZOS_GinaBruno ?

That not a good idea, shuffle is a dodge Chance if it were to have a 6 sec during the dodge chance need to go up to 50%

I'm all for nerfing shuffle, but its needed since the dodgeroll nerf.

CapuchinSeven

Paneross wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

BTW: Shuffle has good synergy with active dodge rolling. However, Shuffle by itself is pretty lackluster. Test it yourself. Activate shuffle near a mob and let it take swipes at you without active dodge rolling. I doubt you will be impressed as I know I wasn't.

Tested it multiple times and see the videos above. It's well over 20% and lasts too long compared to other damage negation buffs.

It's RNG, you would have to test it a LOT. Like A LOT to actually authoritatively say it's well over 20%. Not "multiple times".
Remember for every single hit, it's a 20% chance, that chance doesn't change just because you dodged the last one.

RNG is a bad thing in a game like this BUT you really can't say it's over 20%. Testing it even a 100 times wouldn't be enough. I've said the same thing myself, it feels off sometimes, but that's RNG for you.

Lava_Croft

Shuffle is so good that Magicka builds also use it. It's in the same ball park as the old Immovable and that skill has been nerfed to absolute ***.

glavius

Agree it's so good it has a place in most builds. A nerf to 15% wouldnt be a bad idea

Abob

Remove the dodge chance, RNG has no place in PVP.

Alucardo

Armitas wrote: »

The combat in this game is beyond the definition of broken.

That guy should be wearing Tavas

ManDraKE

Paneross wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

BTW: Shuffle has good synergy with active dodge rolling. However, Shuffle by itself is pretty lackluster. Test it yourself. Activate shuffle near a mob and let it take swipes at you without active dodge rolling. I doubt you will be impressed as I know I wasn't.

Tested it multiple times and see the videos above. It's well over 20% and lasts too long compared to other damage negation buffs.

Is 20%, the problem is that when it "procs" it evades everything in short period of time. I see this all the time with my ganking build, i use a 3-attack combo (snipe+HA+posion injection) that hits all in the same instant, and when the first hit gets evaded, all of the 3 attacks miss.

So yes, the chance of proc is 20%, but it ends up evading a lot more than 20% of the attacks. The chance of proc is irrelevant, even if they reduce it to 10%, the skill will be still broken. It should be a 20% of negate the damage of ONE attack, no a 20% of being immune to all incoming damage for a short period of time

DeanTheCat

Why not just change Evasion to this?

Evasion
Cost: X Stamina (Where X is the current cost of Evasion)
Duration: 10 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation.

Morph: Elude
Duration: 13 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation. When you dodge an attack, you gain Minor Expedition and Minor Endurance for Y seconds. (Y is the number of medium armour pieces you are wearing).

Morph: Shuffle
Duration: 13 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation. Additionally, the penalty for repeated dodges is reduced by Y%.

Effects of proposed changes:
- Cements shuffle as an ability to compliment a medium armour build instead of a buff that is applicable to all builds.
- Reduces the RNG factor of combat while rewarding active dodging.
- Allows access to minor buffs not normally obtainable that compliments the theme of movement in medium armour.

Anti_Virus

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not just change Evasion to this?

Evasion
Cost: X Stamina (Where X is the current cost of Evasion)
Duration: 10 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation.

Morph: Elude
Duration: 13 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation. When you dodge an attack, you gain Minor Expedition and Minor Endurance for Y seconds. (Y is the number of medium armour pieces you are wearing).

Morph: Shuffle
Duration: 13 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation. Additionally, the penalty for repeated dodges is reduced by Y%.

Effects of proposed changes:
- Cements shuffle as an ability to compliment a medium armour build instead of a buff that is applicable to all builds.
- Reduces the RNG factor of combat while rewarding active dodging.
- Allows access to minor buffs not normally obtainable that compliments the theme of movement in medium armour.

Excellent Idea!

Rikumaru

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not just change Evasion to this?

Evasion
Cost: X Stamina (Where X is the current cost of Evasion)
Duration: 10 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation.

Morph: Elude
Duration: 13 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation. When you dodge an attack, you gain Minor Expedition and Minor Endurance for Y seconds. (Y is the number of medium armour pieces you are wearing).

Morph: Shuffle
Duration: 13 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation. Additionally, the penalty for repeated dodges is reduced by Y%.

Effects of proposed changes:
- Cements shuffle as an ability to compliment a medium armour build instead of a buff that is applicable to all builds.
- Reduces the RNG factor of combat while rewarding active dodging.
- Allows access to minor buffs not normally obtainable that compliments the theme of movement in medium armour.

Nah I like my shuffle to have snare immunity for a duration, one of the few things I can do vs root / snare spammers when fighting outnumbered.

Wreuntzylla

Minalan wrote: »

Sadly this will be ignored, because any nerf to stam will never ever happen with ZOS developers.

Why is this @ZOS_GinaBruno ?

You haven't been on this rollercoaster for very long, have you?

Oh wait, since 2014.... You should know better.

SodanTok

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not just change Evasion to this?

Evasion
Cost: X Stamina (Where X is the current cost of Evasion)
Duration: 10 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation.

Morph: Elude
Duration: 13 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation. When you dodge an attack, you gain Minor Expedition and Minor Endurance for Y seconds. (Y is the number of medium armour pieces you are wearing).

Morph: Shuffle
Duration: 13 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation. Additionally, the penalty for repeated dodges is reduced by Y%.

Effects of proposed changes:
- Cements shuffle as an ability to compliment a medium armour build instead of a buff that is applicable to all builds.
- Reduces the RNG factor of combat while rewarding active dodging.
- Allows access to minor buffs not normally obtainable that compliments the theme of movement in medium armour.

People dont realize it, but changing passive defense to reactionary defense is huuuuuge nerf for stamina (or overall shuffle users). You already react with dodge/block to everything you can while shuffle is the last defense (with 20% chance) against things you cant react to properly (like some melee attacks, ganks, invisible projectiles, lags).

If you want to "nerf" shuffle, make it pseudorandom (decrease chance to dodge after every dodge and increase after every hit to reach ~20% dodgerate). People bringing out stuff like "PVP is no place for luck/change" should rly go out (as in on internet and to others MP games). There are more serious MP games utilizing chance and luck with 0 problems (except they let you know some chance proced, here you see 2 shuffle dodges and 4 dodge roll dodges and cry for shuffle nerf)

I play ranged based character. I see dodges (active and passive) all the time. In every 50 kills i meet one who dodged almost all my attacks. I remember him, i hate him. I dont remember those 49 that proced shuffle once or not at all in my 3-4 attacks.

bowmanz607

Haha I still think these threads are funny. Shuffle in game since launch and not until IC did people start having a problem with it because meta shift to stam starting to come on stronger, so more people used it because they switched from mag meta to stam meta.

20% dodge chance was never an issue until people started seeing it more. Now it is, oh my god it is too much blah blah blah. Hell nb been running 20% dodge chance since launch. No one complains about mag nb and their dodge chance. Why, because people over react. People see dodge a lot on stam builds because of dodge roll and then yelling nerf. Some people get lucky and get 4 dodges in a row at times and people yelling nerf and then turn around and kill a guy where it may proc once, but no one notices that. People also call for a nerf because Stam is meta so they see shuffle more which leads to a higher likelihood of people dodging so people yelling nerf.

It really is funny how obvious it is and how easily people are misled. Coupled with people who simply jump on nerf bandwagon just cause their friends did. Omg nerf vd it is op. Guess what, vd was never the problem it was detonation. Does anyone say this once thevery nerf to proxy Det happened? No ofcourse not. All they see is less vd happening. The same problem is happening here. People yelling nerf to dodge chance without realizing that it is simply a stam meta issue not dodge chance. If it switched back to mag meta, not a single person would call for nerf.

You can't just cherry pick picture and situations that favor your argument for nerf. You have to look wholistically. At the same time you are facing a player that dodged 4 attacks in a row, someone else's is dieing because they took full damage.

I got an idea, rather than jumping on nerf wagons, start yelling at zos to make some changes to staves and mage guild line.

Volrion

I run Stam builds and I **** hate Shuffle.


Bring back active dodging!


- Reduce the cost of active dodge roll similar to what it once was.

(Sure people can perma-roll to potentially survive longer, but they won't be an offensive threat while they do. Players need to make a decision to be offensive or defensive at a given moment in the fight. Currently you can just cast shuffle and just barge right in and let RNG handle the defense for you.)

- Remove major evasion from the game.


I like the idea above posted by @DeanTheCat . Only critism I have of the proposal is to keep the snare immunity.

It's an MMO, so gear/build diversity will always play a big role in combat. I think that's great.

But the fights should focus more on active player skill, and less about bs RNG.

**All these thoughts are coming from a viper/veli/shuffle user. (Among many other builds I play...)

I don't hate on people using such mechanics to gain an advantage, but the system is clearly broken in its current form.

If you think major evasion is ok right now, try running a bow or magic caster build.

It's a complete joke.

DeanTheCat

Well... My proposal was more of a first attempt at trying suggest a rework of Evasion. What if the base version (Evasion) had 2 seconds of snare immunity added in to my previously suggested changes?

The main reason why I don't really like seeing the snare immunity in a morph option is due to how it pigeonholes the ability into a single morph instead of offering two unique choices with differing benefits.