A Solution for Perma-Rolling

Ffastyl

OdinForge wrote: »

Dark Souls is a completely different type of PvP, from the PvP done in an MMO like ESO.

You can attack three times in Dark Souls, and be out of stamina and unable to dodge right away. The balance is that your opponent isn't going to be spamming infinite attacks and gap closers on you during this with infinite sustain, as Kena mentioned in his post. You cannot compare Dark Souls PvP to ESO PvP, especially post 1.6.

The only solution ESO needed, was higher costs of everything after the removal of softcaps and no nerfs to active defense and burst damage output.

ESO PvP has been the most balanced when resources are a prominent concern. A decrease in Recovery would be more beneficial than an increase in cost. Increasing cost decreases the number of abilities any player can cast consecutively, but with recovery left as high as it is, the resources will be returned relatively quickly. This effectively imposes a cooldown on abilities. Reducing Recovery on the other hand allows for more consecutive uses but once the resource is out, it is out. Players who do not focus on Recovery cannot count on that resource returning for the remainder of the fight, keeping all combatants mindful of how much is left. Similar to Dark Souls PvP, it is paramount to ensure the resource(s) do not run out.

ESO PvP is not like Dark Souls PvP, but is it wrong to take inspiration from another resource based combat system?

Kupoking

Keep the current balance.

OP, its been nerved already. Are you serious on this?

Do you know how much stam is left for me at 30k stam and 2.4k regen after 5 consecutive rolls? Not enough to break free!

If you cant handle it, please call it a L2P issue and stop calling for uncalled for nerfs.

Anyone remember 1.6 roll dodge? THAT was OP and we could still get killed.

If a mechanics is in a game with no cooldowns, ites meant to be spammed.

OdinForge

Ffastyl wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Dark Souls is a completely different type of PvP, from the PvP done in an MMO like ESO.

You can attack three times in Dark Souls, and be out of stamina and unable to dodge right away. The balance is that your opponent isn't going to be spamming infinite attacks and gap closers on you during this with infinite sustain, as Kena mentioned in his post. You cannot compare Dark Souls PvP to ESO PvP, especially post 1.6.

The only solution ESO needed, was higher costs of everything after the removal of softcaps and no nerfs to active defense and burst damage output.

ESO PvP has been the most balanced when resources are a prominent concern. A decrease in Recovery would be more beneficial than an increase in cost. Increasing cost decreases the number of abilities any player can cast consecutively, but with recovery left as high as it is, the resources will be returned relatively quickly. This effectively imposes a cooldown on abilities. Reducing Recovery on the other hand allows for more consecutive uses but once the resource is out, it is out. Players who do not focus on Recovery cannot count on that resource returning for the remainder of the fight, keeping all combatants mindful of how much is left. Similar to Dark Souls PvP, it is paramount to ensure the resource(s) do not run out.

ESO PvP is not like Dark Souls PvP, but is it wrong to take inspiration from another resource based combat system?

No it's not wrong and I'm actually kind of glad you brought up Dark Souls. It's just that particular mechanic simply wouldn't/shouldn't apply to this game. ESO is on a larger scale than Dark Souls, and so combat and mechanics differ for that style. For all intents and purposes, you can permadodge in Dark Souls. Most fights are players dodging around while mostly conserving stats, waiting to get a lucky strike or parry.

The problem is that after softcap removal, you can build for both defense and offense and still have too much sustain. My stamnb is currently running just under 2K regen, and it's impossible to run out of stam in a 1v1 shielding and dodging and spamming attacks. On top of that he's using stat food so his abilities cost considerably more compared to his regen, than if you were using regen drink and a lower stat pool! That is so undeniably broken, it isn't even funny.

That's always been the problem with ESO. The best part of 1.6 was that despite the great healing and defense available to you, was that if your target made a mistake the burst would kill him. We need to get away from infinite resources by scaling up costs of skills, not by nerfing active defense effectiveness and values (shielding, dodge, healing, shields).

Hear me out here. If you want to take some inspiration from Dark Souls and apply it to ESO, that's how you do it. This is having less to do with dodge, and more to do with the overall health of PvP now.

If you're in a group of 3 chasing one target, mindlessly spamming attacks you deserve to run low on stats and get bursted down. If you're a healing doing nothing but continuously spamming heals on the same group, you deserve to get bursted down.

The reason players are so cautious to engage in Dark Souls, is because spamming offense mindlessly will get you killed. Because the cost of their skills (weapon attacks etc) is so high. In ESO currently you just dogpile whoever is outnumbered and spam healing and damage without any regard for your safety, and that's bad.

^ The issue doesn't have to revolve around dodge, or block or healing etc. There never had to be a nerf, you simply need to make people manage resources. The current issue with PvP is not active defense mechanisms, it's ZOS not knowing how to resource.

RoamingRiverElk

Playing a stamina build feels like you have ample resources for stamina, even with dodge rolling. You can't do it forever, but it's ok. However, for a magicka DK, dodge rolling is wayyyyyy too costly. For magicka sorcs, it's not. But once again, it comes down to how magicka DKs need to block in order to survive, unlike many many other builds. Blocking was nerfed way too much when the devs blindly thought blocking only affected tanks in PvE for some reason... -.-

olsborg

You can not permaroll, its impossible since everytime you do it the cost increases by 33%, even if dodgeroll cost 10 stamina you couldnt permaroll.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Ffastyl wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

What we need also is lower sustain overall. We all have infinite sustain right now, so fights are relegated to burst damage, and we have to have balance bandaids like these stacking costs. That's the real crux of the issue.

PvP is much more balanced on Azura's where we don't have CP.

That's really the aim of the replacement nerf. Cost increase can be somewhat overcome if cost reduction and recovery are stacked high enough. As mentioned above, fights can last up to 10 minutes or longer between optimized and skilled players. The goal of resetting recovery ticks when dodging is to reduce the penalty we have now while still making infinite rolls impossible. No, this nerf will not stack with the current one, it would replace it.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Ok you magicka users just need to stop posting.

I'm surprised @Forestd16b14_ESO You know from your own threads I am a front line charging warrior in platemail.

This poll comes from seeing perma-dodge threads resurface and playing Dark Souls recently. This solution is almost a rip of how FromSoftware handles roll dodging: Stamina regeneration stops until the roll is complete.

I will need to rephrase the OP as lack of sleep + stress has put my writing toward the terse side. I always handle one issue in a discussion though, despite wanting to handle several or several other issues being related. Discussions on balance have a hard time going anywhere (turns into "nerf me? nerf you!") when multiple facets of the game are involved. Assuming other facets are balanced alongside this (i.e. ignoring them) helps expedite discussion about the topic at hand.

I am sorry if I offend in any way but what you are saying and hearing is different from what every one else is hearing what you are saying.

Dodge dolling is the only defense in the game for stamina users cause blocking and mitigation or in simple terms "taking the damage and getting back up and kicking ass" got over nerfed cause magicka type players keeped crying that they couldn't kill players who were taking the damage and now they are crying cause they can't kill players who are dodging.

But when stamina users are asking ZOS to balance out the damage shields magicka users of course are crying saying that shields are not OP but that stamina users need to "L2P". Thing is stamina users did learn to play and learned to play again after the blocking nerf and yet again with the dodging nerf in IC patch unlike magicka users were damage shields have been the same since launch of taking all the damage, negating crit attacks 100%, not having over flow damage, and able to stack them up to what 20K, 30K?

Stamina users have to use stamina to block, sneak, run which need to remind players does not regen when using the mechanics ontop of needing stamina to use skills/spells aposed to magicka users who only need to use magicka to use spells/skills and unlike tanks and blocking magicka users have full magicka regen when using a damage shield.

Stamina users have to use stamina for alot of things and regen has been nerfed to many times and shouldn't have to begin with and it's about time ZOS un-did all the nerfs and finally balanced damage shields so that the defense options are all valid choices and can grant players a fair chance of surviving depending on the player of course because as hopefully every one knows "it is the warrior not the weapon that decides the battle" and if some one pools everything into a high resistance and mitigation they should be able to survive just as long if not way longer than some one using a damage shield or if some one specs them self to be able to roll alot should be able to dodge any attacks that come at them.

Xexpo

Seek another solution.

Guys , guys, guys, he doesn't understand because, iirc, he doesn't use Add-ons.
no joke.

Ashamray

Unnerf roll dodge and give Radiant Opression 200% damage increased against target that used 5 roll dodges in a row
:O

MrGigglypants

Ffastyl wrote: »

Perma-rolling threads have been resurfacing of late so the cost reduction might not be enough. However compounding a nerf with the cost reduction is overkill. Period. So this solution would replace it entirely ingame.

Inspired by other action games with resource based combat, the proposed solution is to stop Stamina Recovery for the duration of the roll. Whether this be stopping recovery for 1 second (ticking 3 seconds after rolling) or resetting the tick timer (ticks 2 seconds after rolling), by cutting off resource regeneration while performing an action guarantees it cannot be spammed excessively -- we all have limited Stamina pools that will run out sooner or later. This solution is more punishing to roll spammers, as while not a continuously increasing cost, they have a very real limit on the number of consecutive rolls; for players that roll periodically, rolling every 2 (or 3, depending) seconds incurs no penalties.

Please keep discussion focused on this aspect/solution, assuming all other areas of the game are balanced or being balanced. If we dive into things such as block nerf or damage shields, the discussion will go in circles with a "Why nerf me when that's clearly broken/badly designed still?!"

Non of the above perma rolling requires so much sacrifice atm and its still not even possible in a literal sense. Stam builds aleady lack the healing that magick has no need to compound the already magicka heavy meta.

Kupoking

Keep the current balance.

So... you wanna punish players that sacrifice damage for stam sustain to be able to dodge more?

Dude- roll dodge costs stam. If you use it too much, you cant attack and kill stuff. If you understand it, then maybe you will be able to beat a stam build.

Vangy

Keep the current balance.

When mag builds get 0 mag recovery when shields are on, we can get stam builds to not have regen during roll....

Jade1986

Seek another solution.

Vangy wrote: »

When mag builds get 0 mag recovery when shields are on, we can get stam builds to not have regen during roll....

Shields are not the equivelant to rolling, bolt escape and things like that are. Shields are equivelant to blocking, which already has o regen when being used and its cost has been magnified over and over for some reason.

Vangy

Keep the current balance.

laced wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

When mag builds get 0 mag recovery when shields are on, we can get stam builds to not have regen during roll....

Shields are not the equivelant to rolling, bolt escape and things like that are. Shields are equivelant to blocking, which already has o regen when being used and its cost has been magnified over and over for some reason.

No thyre not as you pointed out. The only thing mag builds are penalised for is streak pretty much. Mag builds don't rely on block or dodge rolls. My mag builds only dodge roll occasionally even tho i run 13-15k stam on them. For stam;

Block = 0 stam regen
Sneak = 0 stam regen
Dodge roll = increasing cost

Keep this up and we going to have 0 stam regen for pretty much taking a fart.

I don't see why people have no problems with builds spamming shields over and over and over with no penalty but have a problem with builds rolling and rolling. Cc you say? Well you can cc someone who's dodge rolling too. Off the top of my head;

1. Fossilize
2. Encase
3. Streak
4. Fear


Etc etc. If someone is spamming dodge roll, it means they are doing 0 damage. Exactly the same as a sorc who is spamming hardened ward over and over again. Cc and proceed to kill. Calling the waahmbulance isn't the solution.

Jade1986

Seek another solution.

Vangy wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

When mag builds get 0 mag recovery when shields are on, we can get stam builds to not have regen during roll....

Shields are not the equivelant to rolling, bolt escape and things like that are. Shields are equivelant to blocking, which already has o regen when being used and its cost has been magnified over and over for some reason.

No thyre not as you pointed out. The only thing mag builds are penalised for is streak pretty much. Mag builds don't rely on block or dodge rolls. My mag builds only dodge roll occasionally even tho i run 13-15k stam on them. For stam;

Block = 0 stam regen
Sneak = 0 stam regen
Dodge roll = increasing cost

Keep this up and we going to have 0 stam regen for pretty much taking a fart.

I don't see why people have no problems with builds spamming shields over and over and over with no penalty but have a problem with builds rolling and rolling. Cc you say? Well you can cc someone who's dodge rolling too. Off the top of my head;

1. Fossilize
2. Encase
3. Streak
4. Fear


Etc etc. If someone is spamming dodge roll, it means they are doing 0 damage. Exactly the same as a sorc who is spamming hardened ward over and over again. Cc and proceed to kill. Calling the waahmbulance isn't the solution.

Yeah, I do NOT understand the 0 regen for sneaking now. That is just ridiculous. I can MAYBE understand zero regen for blocking, but then WHY in sanguines name INCREASE its cost?!

I have been complaining about shields ( NOT DK shields, because they are awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwful ) for a while now. Sorceres should be limited to ONE shield. End of story, same with all classes. Shield stacking should not even be a thing. That right there would be a good start.

Edziu

Seek another solution.

laced wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

When mag builds get 0 mag recovery when shields are on, we can get stam builds to not have regen during roll....

Shields are not the equivelant to rolling, bolt escape and things like that are. Shields are equivelant to blocking, which already has o regen when being used and its cost has been magnified over and over for some reason.

so if you saying dmg shields are equivelant to blocking..some yes, its almost same + this negating crit hits and absorb 100% dmg instead taking % damage into health with normal blocking.
if we want balance
dmg shields almost = blocking but better to miigate damage - 0 mag regen while shield up + magica burn each hit like stamina while blocking hits, this will be much fair.
templar dont need cry, his shield is almost usefull on pvp as I see, he have helas, dk casting very low shield only for moment for healing buff, just need 1-2 light attacks hits to destroy this shild so this wont cost to much magica for dk for up it, magica nb...hehehe, just resto shield for heal and cloak, no more 24/7 cloak while healing from this shield ;P
just sorc problem because sorc stacking shield without any penalty with very good if not the best defens ein the game

kadar

Keep the current balance.

Perma-rolling threads have been resurfacing of late so the cost reduction might not be enough.

Threads have resurfaced because people come to the forums and whine when someone rolls away from them.

Perma-roll is not a thing.
Seriously people, do some math. People are literally posting false information about the number of rolls they can do, easily disproved with a bit of math/common sense.

joe.smith21b14_ESO

If you all weren't tracking on this here it is if you all time the dodge roll right you can hit said person every time he dodge rolls. Takes some practice but give it a whirl you'll see what I be talkin about. I only got it to work for melee haven't tried yet for range.

nordsavage

Keep the current balance.

laced wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

PvP Stamina nerfs are messing up PvE for stamina builds. Enough is enough. Dodge rolling already has a penalty. Maybe you magicka builds should not regenerate magicka for 1 seconds after casting a spell. See how you like it.

You dont get a penalty for casting a stam based attack. Magicka classes do on the other hand get penalties for escapes ( IE bolt escape ). The problem with the roll is you can literally dodge 1000 attacks if they all attack you at once, negating all that damage. There needs to be a limit, or there needs to be a penalty. Why should block get shafted that hard when you dont even block all the damage, and roll is ok?

Stamina attacks and defense come from the same pool where every defensive action stops regen. Sneak no regen, block no regen, sprint no regen. Magicka gets use of both pools for defensive measure and shield stacking and high out put ranged attacks.

ThePonzzz

nordsavage wrote: »

laced wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

PvP Stamina nerfs are messing up PvE for stamina builds. Enough is enough. Dodge rolling already has a penalty. Maybe you magicka builds should not regenerate magicka for 1 seconds after casting a spell. See how you like it.

You dont get a penalty for casting a stam based attack. Magicka classes do on the other hand get penalties for escapes ( IE bolt escape ). The problem with the roll is you can literally dodge 1000 attacks if they all attack you at once, negating all that damage. There needs to be a limit, or there needs to be a penalty. Why should block get shafted that hard when you dont even block all the damage, and roll is ok?

Stamina attacks and defense come from the same pool where every defensive action stops regen. Sneak no regen, block no regen, sprint no regen. Magicka gets use of both pools for defensive measure and shield stacking and high out put ranged attacks.

^^

sluice

Keep the current balance.

svartorn

I still see plenty of people dodge rolling 10+ times in a row. Just yesterday I saw 10+ EP chasing one DC dude who was dodge rolling around a tree backwards and then dodge rolled backwards up a staircase. Lols @ the people who say this doesn't happen anymore.

ThePonzzz

svartorn wrote: »

I still see plenty of people dodge rolling 10+ times in a row. Just yesterday I saw 10+ EP chasing one DC dude who was dodge rolling around a tree backwards and then dodge rolled backwards up a staircase. Lols @ the people who say this doesn't happen anymore.

And was he able to actually attack you and do anything about it? Plus, he could be a magicka user, and the benefit there is that's what stamina is for. I'm guessing 10+ is an exaggeration since it was 10+ dodge rolls and 10+ EP chasing. I dodge roll a few times to get away from people, at the risk of having no stamina to perform any attacks or run away further. I can probably perform 5 before I'm tapped. Considering there is also the champion point passive to help, some people would want to use that since it's a top-level skill to have.

Durham

Seek another solution.

svartorn wrote: »

I still see plenty of people dodge rolling 10+ times in a row. Just yesterday I saw 10+ EP chasing one DC dude who was dodge rolling around a tree backwards and then dodge rolled backwards up a staircase. Lols @ the people who say this doesn't happen anymore.

this is not true....

Durham

Seek another solution.

ThePonzzz wrote: »

svartorn wrote: »

I still see plenty of people dodge rolling 10+ times in a row. Just yesterday I saw 10+ EP chasing one DC dude who was dodge rolling around a tree backwards and then dodge rolled backwards up a staircase. Lols @ the people who say this doesn't happen anymore.

And was he able to actually attack you and do anything about it? Plus, he could be a magicka user, and the benefit there is that's what stamina is for. I'm guessing 10+ is an exaggeration since it was 10+ dodge rolls and 10+ EP chasing. I dodge roll a few times to get away from people, at the risk of having no stamina to perform any attacks or run away further. I can probably perform 5 before I'm tapped. Considering there is also the champion point passive to help, some people would want to use that since it's a top-level skill to have.

No one is dodge rolling 10 times in row with out some time in between to regen stamina ... They would have to have to have regen on every piece of jewelry ... even then its not sustainable

OdinForge

svartorn wrote: »

I still see plenty of people dodge rolling 10+ times in a row. Just yesterday I saw 10+ EP chasing one DC dude who was dodge rolling around a tree backwards and then dodge rolled backwards up a staircase. Lols @ the people who say this doesn't happen anymore.

No matter what ZOS does to hand hold carebears, it'll never be enough for some.

thejynxed

laced wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

When mag builds get 0 mag recovery when shields are on, we can get stam builds to not have regen during roll....

Shields are not the equivelant to rolling, bolt escape and things like that are. Shields are equivelant to blocking, which already has o regen when being used and its cost has been magnified over and over for some reason.

No thyre not as you pointed out. The only thing mag builds are penalised for is streak pretty much. Mag builds don't rely on block or dodge rolls. My mag builds only dodge roll occasionally even tho i run 13-15k stam on them. For stam;

Block = 0 stam regen
Sneak = 0 stam regen
Dodge roll = increasing cost

Keep this up and we going to have 0 stam regen for pretty much taking a fart.

I don't see why people have no problems with builds spamming shields over and over and over with no penalty but have a problem with builds rolling and rolling. Cc you say? Well you can cc someone who's dodge rolling too. Off the top of my head;

1. Fossilize
2. Encase
3. Streak
4. Fear


Etc etc. If someone is spamming dodge roll, it means they are doing 0 damage. Exactly the same as a sorc who is spamming hardened ward over and over again. Cc and proceed to kill. Calling the waahmbulance isn't the solution.

Yeah, I do NOT understand the 0 regen for sneaking now. That is just ridiculous. I can MAYBE understand zero regen for blocking, but then WHY in sanguines name INCREASE its cost?!

I have been complaining about shields ( NOT DK shields, because they are awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwful ) for a while now. Sorceres should be limited to ONE shield. End of story, same with all classes. Shield stacking should not even be a thing. That right there would be a good start.

There's zero stam regen for sneaking now because someone in one of the dev threads outed how they were able to achieve infinite stamina + stamina regen + no movement penalty + being able to use rapid for the speed boost while sneaking using a certain gear combination allowing them to outrun zergs or even mounted players if they chose to.

sluice

Keep the current balance.

Since when is there no stam regen when sneaking?
Latest patch?

Like do you mean by even just standing still in stealth, your stamina won't regen?

Sureshawt

Keep the current balance.

Wow...I thought this post was a joke at first but OP is really serious....LOL

Ffastyl

Exams are ongoing and I have little time to post on the forums. I have been reading each new response, but unfortunately my response to them will be postponed till a lull reveals itself.

Vangy

Keep the current balance.

sluice wrote: »

Since when is there no stam regen when sneaking?
Latest patch?

Like do you mean by even just standing still in stealth, your stamina won't regen?

I think you are getting confused with what sneaking means. Sneaking = moving about in stealth. Sneaking dosent mean you taking a squat and just sitting there..... That to me is just hiding. With latest changes, even if you are running drinks and you are actively sneaking, your stam regen is forced to 0. Previously, you would keep the extra regen from drinks even while sneaking.