Official Feedback Thread for Nightblades

CP5

Dalsinthus wrote: »

bunnytrix wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

if im understanding this correctly:

it means that i will have zero stamina regen while im in sneak?

allright, so if i go into sneak to move around and place myself behind some one for a sneak attack, by the time i get to the right position to do the attack i will probably be completely out of stamina?

Also:
if i try to stay in sneak and move around i will never at any time gain or recover ANY stamina, untill i completely STAND UP and leave sneak to regain stamina?

Also:
if i try to travel in sneak in cryodiil as i have since beta 2013, i will only be able to go a few feet and then have to again STAND UP and leave sneak every few seconds in order to continue traveling?

Can anyone answer this definitively ? Do you have to come out of stealth to regain stamina ? If so then it will totally destroy stealthy gameplay even before the magelight change. And in a Thieve's Guild dlc...oh the irony!

From what friends on the PTS have told me, you regen in stealth when you are standing perfectly still. If you move at all, even a little, it drops to 0. This is a pretty huge nerf to stealth game play, cutting down mobility and the ability to use buffs/heals in stealth.

I don't understand why this change, the cloak nerf and the magelight buff all are happening together. These massive changes to a playstyle make the game feel really swingy. Why not tweak one or two things at a time, see how it works and adjust from there?

That's how its intended to work (if you are talking about normal sneaking). On live I can easily get the sneak cost so low that I regenerate stamina while sneaking at a rate of about 17 twice a second. Just like blocking the idea is you give up regen to sustain that activity, sneaking already offers passive protection and preemptive damage.

Xeniph

Ok, about the stam regen in stealth.

At release, nobody could regen stam while moving in stealth. You had to stop moving, still remaining in stealth, and you would regen just fine.

In 1.6 and the implementation of CP, the portion that mooncalf buffed your regen would persist while moving in stealth, as well as drinks.

So what we currently have on live is 800+ regen while moving in stealth. But asked if this was a bug, or inteneded we got no answer, except to state drinks and Willows path still aren't buffing regen properly. And it's been confirmed to not be fixed in this iteration of the pts.

So whether this is intended to bring things back to release-1.5, or it's just an unintended change, nobody knows yet.
However you never have, nor will have to leave stealth to regen stamina, only stop moving.

Hope that clears things up

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Check out my in-depth feedback post about Siphoning Attacks.

firewatch

Xeniph wrote: »

Ok, about the stam regen in stealth.


So whether this is intended to bring things back to release-1.5, or it's just an unintended change, nobody knows yet.
However you never have, nor will have to leave stealth to regen stamina, only stop moving.

I was able to confirm that you can regen stamina by stopping while in stealth on the PTS. I am still able to run in stealth from keep to keep without running out of stamina. Before I could actually regen stamina while moving in stealth. I don't have any CP in Shade which reduces the cost of stealth. I am Rank III in the Ledgerman passive "Improved Hiding" which reduces sneaking cost 30%. I don't think this change will effect my play style very much.

Celas_Dranacea

Will purge clear the 5 second no stealth effect of magelight?

Hope499

Pshhh, everyone complaing that "It is all happening at once, wtf!"

Try being a tank when the nerf hit..

No Stam while blocking
No stam regen for werewolf
Stam regen decrease, all at once...

Master_Kas

Hope499 wrote: »

Pshhh, everyone complaing that "It is all happening at once, wtf!"

Try being a tank when the nerf hit..

No Stam while blocking
No stam regen for werewolf
Stam regen decrease, all at once...

Two wrongs don't make it right.

This "We got nerfed so you deserve to get nerf" is pathetic.
If cloak can't be activated by magelight/detpots/mark/aoe's where will we get the protection from?

- We can't permaroll as stamina builds since the roll nerf.
- We can't block for a long time after the block nerf,DK's atleast have their battleroar and helping hand passives.
- We got no instant heals as magicka builds (Breath of life, I'm looking at you)
- Nor any good shield which absorbs physical damage. (Looking at you hardened ward)

Nerf cloak
Buff magelight (even f*cking inner light LOL)
Nerf stamina damage

While buffing magicka DK's They needed buffs, no question about it
Buffing Sorcs (elemental + magic dmg in same star)

Don't get me wrong, magicka DK's needed these buffs.
But while buffing other classes/specs which was subpar while nerfing the other, will only lead to the nerfed class being subpar and NOT balanced.
I was expecting a nerf but not multiple nerfs like this.

GJ ZOS. We'll see how things play out.
Will find some way to manage since NB has always been my main but I'm glad I have all classes leveled up now aswell.

Wycks

Helluin wrote: »

• Assassination >> Lotus Fan
  The skill appears to be buffed meaningfully PvE wise.
  PvP wise just in a live server it is possible to have an idea about this changement but surely it seems a good improvement.
• Assassination >> Pressure Points
  I'll wait for EU characters to be copied since I can't properly check values compared to live server (craftable sets and legendary crafting improvements not available on Templates).
  
  
• Shadow >> Shadow Cloak and morphs
  The changement is something we can deal with but the ability to remove DoT effects is quite vital for a class that lacks a direct heal, damage shield and a proper defensive tool/skill. I prefer the live server Dark Cloak all the time both for magicka and stamina NB.
  To compensate for this, the duration could be improved by 1-2 seconds, so also the suppression of damage over time effects.
  Both morphs are finally now interesting, since they both have the same effect with an offensive option and a defensive one, good job.
  
  The real problem, PvP wise, is instead the changement of Magelight that negates completely a core mechanic of this class making it unpersonalized.
  Many players selected this class because of a specific and iconic archetype (both in MMORPGs and TES games) that is completely eliminated by a skill (Magelight), that was already good without this new extra function.
  Losing the interest into an archetype means no fun and it has obvious consequences: some players will switch class, while the players most loyal and passionate of NB will adapt or quit.
  
  Because of Magelight, not just Cloak is affected - negated but also the passive Master Assassin (NB), the ability to stun using Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack, the passive Stealthy (Bosmer and Khajiit), the Vampire ultimate Clouding Swarm.
  As you can see the consequent effects of Magelight are a cascade that involves not just a skill but several ones and an entire mechanic.
  
  But for players changing class or quitting, this changement could have a simple consequence PvP wise: more players ganking using long ranged skills. As you can imagine this effect can lead to the exact opposite of reducing that kind of gameplay and so we will have more discussions and flames in game and forum.
  
  The checks that Magelight does, probably spammed by the majority of players, I presume should be not few.
  Performance wise I hope it won't be an issue on live servers.
  
  The last thing I can say about is: Magelight should work at most for sneak and not for invisibility, there is already Flare and many other counters to Cloak.
  Maybe, for players not aware of it, you can add a tooltip that explains to use counters like AoE damage skills, Revealing Flare and morphs, Piercing Mark, detection potions, etc.
  
  If you really want to add something able to negate invisibility at all, you should keep the approach you had for Damage Shields with Shield Breaker: create a set with a specific bonus against invisibility.
  A set is infact a trade off: I want to bypass damage shields, ok I use a set that is limited and less powerfull than other ones but it has a specific ability - use.
  Magelight is instead not a trade off, since it's already a core skill used in many magicka builds in PvP and in every magicka build in PvE.
  The fact it grants Empower (as it was already some patches ago) and that is no more a toggled skill are already a great buff. Last but not least, the chance to get Empower using this skill will further encourage the ganking gameplay from ranged.
  
  There are many coherent and complete feedbacks in this topic and other ones about this matter, so I don't have to add much more.
  
  
• Shadow >> Path of Darkness and morphs
  This is an huge buff, I'd say even too much since it wasn't necessary.
  
• Shadow >> Manifestation of Terror
  This morph is a bit more interesting but fear reduced to 1 target and the fact that enemies can see these traps make again Mass Hysteria the clear winner.
  But for soloing in PvE (vs mobs not immune to fear), Manifestation of Terror is still the weak morph of Aspect of Terror and there isn't a real choice.
  Making traps not visible to enemies could make this more appealing in PvP, but the chance to fear just 1 target is still an huge negativity; at least 2 targets could be an idea or maybe more target on spot and 1 with the ranged trap (or vice versa).
  
  
• Siphoning >> Funnel Health
  This changement is in line with other changements on the healing side in general and for other classes; for healer magicka NB is surely an huge nerf.
  Damage and/or healing provided could be increased because of this reason.
  I'd say to make Swallow Soul the offensive one with more damage dealt + less healing and Funnel Health the defensive one with an additional target healed (character + 1 group member as it is in PTS) and more healing but less damage done. Doing so a magicka dd would go for the first, while an healer for the second one.
• Siphoning >> Debilitate
  The unlimited ammount of targets makes this morph really interesting, even if it could become too strong.
  Both PvE and PvP wise is really solid.
  One of the two morphs of Cripple could become a stamina one dealing poison/disease damage: this would provide stamina NB a class DoT that is missing at the moment.
• Siphoning >> Siphoning Attacks
  The changement is quite a big issue for NB tanks especially.
  In this topic there are many feedbacks by players more competent than me for tanking, so better if you check those.
  For stamina and magicka NB (dd and healer) is a big changement as well.
  Before resources were too much, now the skill is not really good.
  Probably something in the middle would balance it, like increasing the chances on non-basic attacks or the stamina/magicka restored.
• Siphoning >> Catalyst
  NB is able to generate really a lot of ultimate, it was unexpected this buff.
  Probably this passive would be better if providing less Ultimate but granting another effect or granting directly something else.
  A reduction on the cooldown for potions or a damage shield upon use a potion or an increased healing from potions could be something good to balance the lack of a direct healing skill.
  Otherwise it can become a bonus to healing received, then with Swallow Soul changing into something different as morph (like I suggested before to make it the offensive morph of Strife).
  
  
• Nightblade >> general - other
  Stamina morphs Killer's Blade and Power Extraction should change their damage type into poison, disease or physical.
  Assassin's Will of at least one morph (Relentless Focus would be better) should deal poison, disease or physical damage.
  All NB ultimates dealing damage use magic damage so, considering Champion System, magicka Nb is better than stamina NB: instead of making a morph dealing poison, disease or physical damage you should overlook this for every class and also for Fighters Guild's skills.
  A solution could be two new stars just for Ultimates: Mighty and Elemental Expert just increase basic attacks and skills, Melee Weapon Expert becomes Weapon Expert adding also bow within the weapons, Bow Expert is replaced by a new star that increases just the damage and healing of Ultimates.
  Expert Defender then can reduce the damage of light/heavy attacks and Ultimates.

Once again players who know more about the game than the developers ^^^^^^

Leogon

I only have one problem with the nightblade class. The other classes all have at least one great healing/ward ability but nightblades don't.

Lava_Croft

Leogon wrote: »

I only have one problem with the nightblade class. The other classes all have at least one great healing/ward ability but nightblades don't.

That's why they have Shadow Cloak...

Xeniph

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Leogon wrote: »

I only have one problem with the nightblade class. The other classes all have at least one great healing/ward ability but nightblades don't.

That's why they had Shadow Cloak...

Fixed for the current PTS iteration.

olsborg

What needs to happen imo:

The nb who marked you is the only one who can see you and attack you while you are cloaked. Mark needs to have its duration shortened. You should be able to atleast use cloak even if you are marked or suffering from reveal via magelight or detection potions so you can atleast gain the minor protection buff.

Spliffo

olsborg wrote: »

What needs to happen imo:

The nb who marked you is the only one who can see you and attack you while you are cloaked. Mark needs to have its duration shortened. You should be able to atleast use cloak even if you are marked or suffering from reveal via magelight or detection potions so you can atleast gain the minor protection buff.

^^This and a rework of the Master Assassin passive, maybe to work like sorcs similar passive to work based of class skills slotted as NB is meant to be a dps class but can now only get buffed weapon/spell damage briefly if at all

Helluin

Spliffo wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to test that, is there any chance while you where testing if you checked if you kill the target that casts magelight removes the debuff or if it persists even after the target dies also can cloak still be cast for the minor protection while debuffed or is the ability completely useless? I'm on console and don't have access to PTS so am unable to check myself

You have to thank also @Xeniph otherwise the test would have not been possible.
Xeniph tested that this debuff doesn't work like a CC, that's why he proposed to consider it like a CC (doing so Immovable or an Immovability potions could be used to prevent it). It's a good idea but for further info you should ask him.
Does it persist even after the target dies? We didn't test it but I presume it persists for the full duration.
I'll check it better when EU characters are copied.
Can Cloak still be cast? No, the skill is greyed out and you can't use it at all (like when you get stun, fear, etc.).

@ThePonzzz and @Lava_Croft (Kris), thanks guys. I hope it will be helpful for devs and for us.
In this topic, like in many others in forum, I really don't like that is not possible to have a proper constructive and mature discussion with pro and con without flames, useless comments and players insulting devs, ZOS team or other players.
Let's try to keep constructive these feedbacks (in favour or against).
I'm confident devs will understand our motivations since they are explained with reasons.
It's PTS and this should be the purpose.

@Spliffo about Master Assasin I understand your suggestion, it would be a good solution to the situation or, more properly, a band aid, but personally I don't really agree because it would make the class something else, something that some players wouldn't like to play.

Nightblades are adventurers and opportunists with a gift for getting in and out of trouble. Relying variously on stealth, blades and speed, they thrive on conflict and misfortune trusting to their luck and cunning to survive.

Somithing similar applies also to Stealthy (Bosmer/Khajiit) that should be buffed or reworked accordingly.

P.s. @Lava_Croft & @Master_Kas will you be up for some tests when we have EU characters on PTS?

Marrtha

Nothing wrong here, move on!

Lava_Croft

@Helluin: I'm waiting for the EU character copy before checking PTS, so sure!

Nightwolfmenace

Couples of things from testing.. The reveal of magelight should only be on the Radiant Magelight morph

Another big one i have not seen people mention is that Piercing Mark from a NB COMPLETELY prevents you from going into cloak at all just like how magelight currently works but it last the entire duration of the mark, which also prevents you from going invisible during clouding swarm (still can use bats but you dont get invisibility... use the other morph instead this patch)

There is no going invisible when your marked, you literally cannot press cloak so the whole only the person who marked you can see you is nonexistent... best start running purge if you want to 1vX

bowmanz607

Nightwolfmenace wrote: »

Couples of things from testing.. The reveal of magelight should only be on the Radiant Magelight morph

Another big one i have not seen people mention is that Piercing Mark from a NB COMPLETELY prevents you from going into cloak at all just like how magelight currently works but it last the entire duration of the mark, which also prevents you from going invisible during clouding swarm (still can use bats but you dont get invisibility... use the other morph instead this patch)

There is no going invisible when your marked, you literally cannot press cloak so the whole only the person who marked you can see you is nonexistent... best start running purge if you want to 1vX

Piercing mark has always worked like that. That is not new. Other that the fact you can't use cloak at all when marked.

Samphaa

If this is the sort of crap we have to put up with everytime there's a new update, I don't want anymore updates.

Elijah_Crow

Can you at least make the stamina morph of our class execute use something other than magic damage?!?

Xeniph

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Nightwolfmenace wrote: »

Couples of things from testing.. The reveal of magelight should only be on the Radiant Magelight morph

Another big one i have not seen people mention is that Piercing Mark from a NB COMPLETELY prevents you from going into cloak at all just like how magelight currently works but it last the entire duration of the mark, which also prevents you from going invisible during clouding swarm (still can use bats but you dont get invisibility... use the other morph instead this patch)

There is no going invisible when your marked, you literally cannot press cloak so the whole only the person who marked you can see you is nonexistent... best start running purge if you want to 1vX

Piercing mark has always worked like that. That is not new. Other that the fact you can't use cloak at all when marked.

Actually, it is a bit new.

Formerly only the mark-er would see the target. Assuming they were only "Marked" and not "detected". So now mark funtions like a realm wide reveal, just like potions, magelight and proximity reveals.

The trolling this update will be strong.

radicalb21

Seriously ZOS have you even read this thread since you created it. All these posts and not a single Dev post. Just went over the new patch notes 2.3.1 and guess what just a couple of bullet points nothing substantive. I'm getting tired of be treated like the proverbial redheaded stepchild. Ok time to say a few things when the game first came out stamina wasn't in a great place and it took until patch 1.5 when it really came into its own. Since then stamina has been going downhill and in patch 2.3.0 it really took a turn for the worse. Then you look at all the posts in this thread and there are alot of great posts and ideas in here. I know a number of people that play nightblades and play them well that are considering shelving both there character as well as the game after these changes.

Xeniph

We'll be making some balance changes to abilities in the next incremental (next week) to address some feedback we've seen, and plan on making a forum thread about it in the next day or so you loop you guys in.

Source: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/246463/pts-patch-notes-v2-3-1#latest

also

ZOS_GinaBruno
admin

Also, during the next eso live will there be any specifics about potential templar, stam sorc, or heavy armor changes? Those are kind of being left out and are felt ignored. I'm still waiting from last year as to what direction wrobel's team plans to bring stam sorcs in particular and at this point it seems like they have no plans.
Yep, the plan is to have Wrobel on the show to discuss some of the recent/upcoming changes, and also answer some questions.

May be some light at the end of the tunnel. Though I wouldn't hold your breath.

nordickittyhawk

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/246492/zos-pts-update-killers-blade#latest

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245682/siphon-attacks#latest

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245501/pve-nightblade-stamina-feedback#latest

Sav72

I have no faith in them, damage is done, might have couple of changes but, NB is a new class now.

CP5

Xeniph wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Nightwolfmenace wrote: »

Couples of things from testing.. The reveal of magelight should only be on the Radiant Magelight morph

Another big one i have not seen people mention is that Piercing Mark from a NB COMPLETELY prevents you from going into cloak at all just like how magelight currently works but it last the entire duration of the mark, which also prevents you from going invisible during clouding swarm (still can use bats but you dont get invisibility... use the other morph instead this patch)

There is no going invisible when your marked, you literally cannot press cloak so the whole only the person who marked you can see you is nonexistent... best start running purge if you want to 1vX

Piercing mark has always worked like that. That is not new. Other that the fact you can't use cloak at all when marked.

Actually, it is a bit new.

Formerly only the mark-er would see the target. Assuming they were only "Marked" and not "detected". So now mark funtions like a realm wide reveal, just like potions, magelight and proximity reveals.

The trolling this update will be strong.

I by 'formerly' you mean a long while ago when the mark was only seen by the caster and target than yes. But ever since then all players can see the marked target. The whole 'cut the ability to use cloak' is likely from two things, someone else pointed out how cloak not being usable makes sneaking past npcs a challenge on what would otherwise be an effortless task, and second, so people who are revealed won't spam the skill and wonder why they are still taking hits. One of my more enjoyable past times lately has been running my nb and just troll marking enemy nb's. So many don't seem to grasp that their skill wasn't working since they were marked, this is more or less just direct feedback.

ScruffyWhiskers

CP5 wrote: »

So many don't seem to grasp that their skill wasn't working since they were marked, this is more or less just direct feedback.

The big problem here is that even if you are marked, detected etc. using shadow cloak to trigger shadow barrier or the DOT purge (even temporarily as it is now on the PTS) might be a "skilled" move. That option is completely gone if the skill is grayed out/disabled. In a former career I remember that this is what was called an "unintended consequence" when a policy change was made but not fully thought out. LOL

rager82b14_ESO

What the heck is the point of this feedback thread, when it is clear they don't listen?

Leeching needs a buff. We been asking for it for how long?
Stam morphs that are magic damage? What?


Come on now.

czar

Sav72 wrote: »

I have no faith in them, damage is done, might have couple of changes but, NB is a new class now.

did you play right after release? nb's were far more broken then than they are now, and for a long time too.

i have a love/hate relationship with my nb. it's fun when it works, but it's not an easy class to play unless you min/max or dedicate a lot of time to your build. i don't really care about cloak or stamina as long as the rest of the skills are balanced with the other classes, but they're not. zos need to figure out what the purpose of nb is; making us the squishiest class with the most burst damage is all well and good, but take away our defenses and we're just squishy. useless.

Nutshotz

OK I'm just gonna put my 2 cents in. I play both stamina and magica NB. The nerf to cloak was unnecessary and pathetic! Stam nb can and have reached 6k+ wpn dmg, while as a magica nb struggles to even hit 2.5 - 3.5 buffed. We don't have the stacking buffs that Stam users have and camouflage hunter what a poor sport skill just like wrecking blow, getting off topic tho. Nerfing our heals from the siphoning tree was a slap in the face and yes we do have the restoration line but half the time healing ward doest go off and if it does it stops you in place for a few seconds. Now nerfing our speed another slap in the face yet again. Making Stam users already faster out of stealth. The whole point of a magica nb was speed, stealth, sustain. I know I'm forgetting other things. As for magelight. ARE YOU INSANE! 5 sec permanent lock from stealth. This is gonna be abused like camouflage hunter is!

The real question is from our feed backs on PTS are they gonna fix the issues or is wrobel gonna sweep it under the rug like usual?