Do you think ZOS should eliminate animation cancelling?

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO

Yes get rid of it

dday3six wrote: »

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

no it's not, but guess what, if you believe otherwise, seems you ain't that skilled at it after all.

1. be in sneak, (for extra damage buff and stun)
2. get into position
3. charge up heavy attack
4. cast attack skill (preferably with a CC)
5. cancel animation by bash (for extra damage)
6. throw down dawnbreaker, as it procs right away again on cast (no delay on second damage)
7. use any executioner skill on target if still alive while it gets up (now that takes precious time)

sure takes 2 seconds for wind up and preparing ...
But, all damage lands in the same slice.
Instant death on the receiving end with ZERO warning.
You don't even see it coming.

Working as intended? Sure hope not!
Working anyway? Sure does!

And this is on an nearly empty campaign, dead of night with ping rate well below 100.
So you tell me that fairy tale about lag being the sole problem here?
Sorry, not buying.

So you're going to question my skill while presenting all that misinformation, and outlining a terrible opening. That's funny.

First off, you're talking about ganking on a stationary target. Those situations are uncommon at best. They're deadly with or without weaves and animation canceling because it's an ambush. The point is to catch the opponent unprepared. However, if players choose more wisely how, when, and where they stand still, that sort of heavy attack opener from stealth is far less likely to happen.

Also note that post TG update running either morph of Magelight will pretty much make a player immune to that sort of ambush, because the attacker would be revealed before their heavy attack winds up. At that point it's up to the potential victim to be paying attention. At present there are several ground based AOEs (Caltrops, Daedric Mines, etc.) which can be stood in during times when standing still is required that would prevent the attack from happening.

Your ping is not the only thing that matters, the other players ping is also important. Just because your connect is fast doesn't mean the other players is as well.

Furthermore the opener you suggested is sloppy and amateur. You're missing Camo Hunter, which is a guaranteed proc out of stealth. Next, you wouldn't cast CC on a target that is already stunned from an attack out of stealth. They'd already be CC'd, thus you'd be wasting an action that doesn't deal damage. Then, since the Ultimate you suggest is Dawnbreaker, and has a DOT that would be the best follow up to cancel the animation of a heavy attack opener. Doing it that way would allow the DOT longer to tick. (Note: Pre-IC Dawnbreaker of Smithing was able to be front loaded by animation canceling it. That was fixed with IC.) You'd block cancel the Dawnbreaker, but wouldn't bash cancel unless running 1H&S cause the damage would be awful compared to just using a instant cast, damage dealing skill.

What seems to happen is you have an issue with stealth gameplay in ESO, and have smashed that into an issue with animation canceling. Nothing you've described would happen in the same slice as you put it. And frankly if someone used this opener on you, you missed you chance to counter, which would have been during the wasted CC used to weave into a heavy attack.

Buffing up before an attack goes without saying. Seriously, that's basic, not skill.

And when you want to take a flag, you gotta stand there. In any case. That was just one of many examples. There are a lot more and different situations. Most of which make even more use of AC to get an advantage.

And it's not just the ping rate of either system, but the FPS that is an even stronger factor in influencing the outcome of a battle as ZOS in their infinite whatever choose to bind the time your key press is being reported to the server on when the next frame update is finished. Guess whose key press is already being processed by the servers while the key press of a casual gamer (maybe even on a laptop) still sits around and waits on finally being send. Right, the one from the one with the gaming rig.
Skill? Not at all. Just a hidden: pay to win.

Also there are a ton of skills that do damage AND CC (not stun, stealth got that covered already). Ever heard of wrecking blow (knock down)? And it's hardly the only one (and some are instant). And as all action on the target is reported at once. There isn't a window for reaction. Bang your are dead (in above example).

Your original point was that AC is bad because it doesn't allow changing your action, even if said action was a movement.
Now you talk about anything but that. Changing targets ain't we?

And no, don't have an issue with stealth play. More an issue with how badly stealth is implemented (and getting worse with TG, but that's a completely different can of worms)

TalonKnight

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs&ab_channel=BlastedAssassin

Man f that, if animation cancelling stays then im out, no u cant have my stuff....

AddictionX

Yes get rid of it

I think skills need to be built and balanced around the how well one can cancel a said skill. Animation canceling, its like a justified lag.

If this is the case why have DoTs at all... it really doesn't make sense to have Dots... as it was put into place before they knew about animation canceling...

It should be taught to players how to cancel each and every ability.

I seen people argue its part of end game and mastery of your class but seriously who cares lol ... its all about having fun and getting as much people to have fun playing their characters as some one can hope... I really do get bored of fighting the same people over and over again...

I dont see the point of having abilities that have a few seconds cast time before they hit, if they are supposed to be a way of balancing that said strong skill. Just make them instant... yes instant WB, the QQ would be insane then maybe they would consider balancing skills around AC.

Also lore doesn't permit animation canceling lol.

I would keep the light and heavy attack weaving but thats as far as i would go... i dont think you should be able to dodge while a skill hits a second later.

Julianos

Yes get rid of it

Yes animation canceling ruin pvp its a freakin glitch and it feeds scripters and macro users. Go make some light attack weaving macro with your mouse software you will see what im talking about and it becomes more OP in the hand of a scripter and ZOS cant detect scripters or macro users its so lame.

M_TeK_9

Most games have it. Dcuo called it clipping. Get used to it

Julianos

Yes get rid of it

M_TeK_9 wrote: »

Most games have it. Dcuo called it clipping. Get used to it

YES people get use to get rekt by scripters.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar

No let it stay

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Seeing way to many threads about this so I want to see the thoughts of the community on this debate in poll form. Note: the notes said they were going to improve animations so you can see effects when canceled but as of now they will not eliminate it.

I bet the same people who want this gone also wanted the add on gone which told you the groups dps.... yawn.

NoMoreChillies

fought a DK in IC last night:
each time he used the exact same combo - WB/light attack/WB/light attack / Take flight in about 1.5 seconds.
macro wins everytime.

qrichou

Yes get rid of it

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs&ab_channel=BlastedAssassin

Translation of the clip : sorry we can,t fix it . so we say its a skill . Meanwhile you get stunstacked and wb to pulp in 2sec . if on a horse your dead b4 you hit the ground .

Casterial

No let it stay

No, just learn how to do it. It helps so many classes, Sorcs, and Temps mainly. NBs can't really complain and nor can DKs with some of their skills, but skills like WB etc maybe.

dday3six

No let it stay

.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

no it's not, but guess what, if you believe otherwise, seems you ain't that skilled at it after all.

1. be in sneak, (for extra damage buff and stun)
2. get into position
3. charge up heavy attack
4. cast attack skill (preferably with a CC)
5. cancel animation by bash (for extra damage)
6. throw down dawnbreaker, as it procs right away again on cast (no delay on second damage)
7. use any executioner skill on target if still alive while it gets up (now that takes precious time)

sure takes 2 seconds for wind up and preparing ...
But, all damage lands in the same slice.
Instant death on the receiving end with ZERO warning.
You don't even see it coming.

Working as intended? Sure hope not!
Working anyway? Sure does!

And this is on an nearly empty campaign, dead of night with ping rate well below 100.
So you tell me that fairy tale about lag being the sole problem here?
Sorry, not buying.

So you're going to question my skill while presenting all that misinformation, and outlining a terrible opening. That's funny.

First off, you're talking about ganking on a stationary target. Those situations are uncommon at best. They're deadly with or without weaves and animation canceling because it's an ambush. The point is to catch the opponent unprepared. However, if players choose more wisely how, when, and where they stand still, that sort of heavy attack opener from stealth is far less likely to happen.

Also note that post TG update running either morph of Magelight will pretty much make a player immune to that sort of ambush, because the attacker would be revealed before their heavy attack winds up. At that point it's up to the potential victim to be paying attention. At present there are several ground based AOEs (Caltrops, Daedric Mines, etc.) which can be stood in during times when standing still is required that would prevent the attack from happening.

Your ping is not the only thing that matters, the other players ping is also important. Just because your connect is fast doesn't mean the other players is as well.

Furthermore the opener you suggested is sloppy and amateur. You're missing Camo Hunter, which is a guaranteed proc out of stealth. Next, you wouldn't cast CC on a target that is already stunned from an attack out of stealth. They'd already be CC'd, thus you'd be wasting an action that doesn't deal damage. Then, since the Ultimate you suggest is Dawnbreaker, and has a DOT that would be the best follow up to cancel the animation of a heavy attack opener. Doing it that way would allow the DOT longer to tick. (Note: Pre-IC Dawnbreaker of Smithing was able to be front loaded by animation canceling it. That was fixed with IC.) You'd block cancel the Dawnbreaker, but wouldn't bash cancel unless running 1H&S cause the damage would be awful compared to just using a instant cast, damage dealing skill.

What seems to happen is you have an issue with stealth gameplay in ESO, and have smashed that into an issue with animation canceling. Nothing you've described would happen in the same slice as you put it. And frankly if someone used this opener on you, you missed you chance to counter, which would have been during the wasted CC used to weave into a heavy attack.

Buffing up before an attack goes without saying. Seriously, that's basic, not skill.

And when you want to take a flag, you gotta stand there. In any case. That was just one of many examples. There are a lot more and different situations. Most of which make even more use of AC to get an advantage.

And it's not just the ping rate of either system, but the FPS that is an even stronger factor in influencing the outcome of a battle as ZOS in their infinite whatever choose to bind the time your key press is being reported to the server on when the next frame update is finished. Guess whose key press is already being processed by the servers while the key press of a casual gamer (maybe even on a laptop) still sits around and waits on finally being send. Right, the one from the one with the gaming rig.
Skill? Not at all. Just a hidden: pay to win.

Also there are a ton of skills that do damage AND CC (not stun, stealth got that covered already). Ever heard of wrecking blow (knock down)? And it's hardly the only one (and some are instant). And as all action on the target is reported at once. There isn't a window for reaction. Bang your are dead (in above example).

Your original point was that AC is bad because it doesn't allow changing your action, even if said action was a movement.
Now you talk about anything but that. Changing targets ain't we?

And no, don't have an issue with stealth play. More an issue with how badly stealth is implemented (and getting worse with TG, but that's a completely different can of worms)

If a player is going to stand still, they should take measures against potential ganks . You cannot blame AC for players unpreparedness. If you think to buff up before an attack goes without saying, so should that.

A good rig is the cost of PC gaming. Gaming it's self can be a very expensive hobby. There is no pay to win envolved in that. You're really stretching with first world problems here.

You cannot heavy weave into Wrecking Blow and have the damage hit all at once or in the same slice as you put it before. WB has a cast time which cannot be bypassed. A player can break free of the stun from stealth. If you hit them with a heavy attack out of stealth, then charge WB you gave the player a chance to break-free and stabilize. If all actioned are reported at once, with a channeled skill like WB involved, that's lag.

No, my original point was that I've a hard time taking the anti-AC crowd seriously because many just want animation canceling removed, without the distinction of stating they really just don't want effects to be applied if an animation is canceled. It is an important point because it displays a basic understanding of how modern video games function. There is also a good amount of blame cast on AC for what players mistakening believe is done with macros, but is actually lag.

Discussion and debate branches out and evolves over time. When you bring up new points, a responder is likely to address them. Would you prefer they ignored them?

DenMoria

I don't even know what "animation cancellation is" and the only thing it says online is "how" to do it, not what it actually is.

dday3six

No let it stay

Axorn wrote: »

Yes animation canceling ruin pvp its a freakin glitch and it feeds scripters and macro users. Go make some light attack weaving macro with your mouse software you will see what im talking about and it becomes more OP in the hand of a scripter and ZOS cant detect scripters or macro users its so lame.

What if I want you to provide proof of your claim? There are people who keep saying these things, and they'll happily tell another to go test it for themselves, but they never are willing to provide evidence of this claim.

dday3six

No let it stay

DenMoria wrote: »

I don't even know what "animation cancellation is" and the only thing it says online is "how" to do it, not what it actually is.

The basic idea is that animation canceling is when your character can via your input interrupt one action with another. It allows for gameplay to feel more fluid and smooth because you don't have to wait for one action to end to input another. A basic example of this is would be your character is sprinting, you press to jump, and the jump animation overrides the sprint animation in a seamless continution of actions.

You can do the same with most abilities and attacks in ESO, and those effects will still apply even if the animation is shorted with cancels. That's basically the crux of the disagreement. Some want that to stay, others don't. I personally suggest taking in as much information as you can on the subject before choosing a side in the debate on that issue, if you do at all.

DaveMoeDee

Yes get rid of it

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

...
No, my original point was that I've a hard time taking the anti-AC crowd seriously because many just want animation canceling removed, without the distinction of stating they really just don't want effects to be applied if an animation is canceled. It is an important point because it displays a basic understanding of how modern video games function. There is also a good amount of blame cast on AC for what players mistakening believe is done with macros, but is actually lag.
...

Yes, cancelling an action is different from ANIMATION cancelling. It is better if animations match what is actually happening.

I am fine with cancelling animations that happen after the point in the animation where contact is made. If there is animation after a DK shoots a stone fist, sure, cancel that animation because it isn't actually part of the combat. But any cancelling before a missile is launched or before a melee attack makes contact should cancel that attack, not just the visual representation.

Weird things happen when I hold down a heavy attack as soon as I initiate wrecking blow. I don't know if the time when I am holding down the attack before wrecking blow connects add to the power of my attack, but it shouldn't. Queuing an attack is fine, but I shouldn't be able to start my heavy attack until the WB is done. If it doesn't actually start the heavy attack until post WB, than we just have an animation problem that I imagine could be resolved with the changes they are working on.

DaveMoeDee

Yes get rid of it

dday3six wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

I don't even know what "animation cancellation is" and the only thing it says online is "how" to do it, not what it actually is.

The basic idea is that animation canceling is when your character can via your input interrupt one action with another. It allows for gameplay to feel more fluid and smooth because you don't have to wait for one action to end to input another. A basic example of this is would be your character is sprinting, you press to jump, and the jump animation overrides the sprint animation in a seamless continution of actions.

You can do the same with most abilities and attacks in ESO, and those effects will still apply even if the animation is shorted with cancels. That's basically the crux of the disagreement. Some want that to stay, others don't. I personally suggest taking in as much information as you can on the subject before choosing a side in the debate on that issue, if you do at all.

The half animations don't look fluid or smooth.

Autolycus

No let it stay

Can we just get over this already? I mean really, how many times do we have to discuss it before people get tired of the topic?

Everyone can animation cancel. Nobody has an advantage that every other player doesn't also have access to, therefore it is fair. It doesn't matter if you are running a macro or just spent a ton of time practicing how to ani cancel, the result is the same.

If you don't like the way the combat functions in this game, go play a different one.

svartorn

Yes get rid of it

Yes.

Getting attacked 5 times in a split second shouldn't be how the game is played. ZOS is being lazy by not addressing this issue.

DaveMoeDee

Yes get rid of it

Autolycus wrote: »

Can we just get over this already? I mean really, how many times do we have to discuss it before people get tired of the topic?

Everyone can animation cancel. Nobody has an advantage that every other player doesn't also have access to, therefore it is fair. It doesn't matter if you are running a macro or just spent a ton of time practicing how to ani cancel, the result is the same.

If you don't like the way the combat functions in this game, go play a different one.

I agree with this. I think animation cancelling would be a stupid design, but it seems they never meant for that to be the design. At this point, it is what it is and I would never start a thread like this because it is pointless.

But if someone asks the question in a thread like this, I would say that hypothetically, yes, it would be good to make the animations match the actual action.

Kalante

No let it stay

No. Lol at all these scrubs saying yes. I learned to animation cancel and it is just one of the many bridge gaps that differentiate between the good and bad players just like in FPS's games strafing. There is no point in reaching the max point of the game when everyone is the same. It is sad how people here also see this as an encumbrance instead of a door to get good a the game. Even if animation cancelling is removed the good players are still gonna dominate the bad players. Now the bad players get fkd even more because there is no way to actually get good at the game anymore. In dust 514 when strafing was removed due to scrubs saying that people abused it to get an "unfair advantage" (when they could of had learned also and get good at the game) guess what? those same people that cried remained bad at the game. The skilled players were still out there dominating making big plays because that's what skilled players do. They do not rely solely on one skill to be good at the game. Many other factors come into play. Player situational awareness, knowing steps ahead, experience of the battle field. How can you nerf that? You think that removing an important aspect of the game will fix it and lower the skill gap? it won't, instead it'll end up pissing off a bunch of people.

DenMoria

dday3six wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

I don't even know what "animation cancellation is" and the only thing it says online is "how" to do it, not what it actually is.

The basic idea is that animation canceling is when your character can via your input interrupt one action with another. It allows for gameplay to feel more fluid and smooth because you don't have to wait for one action to end to input another. A basic example of this is would be your character is sprinting, you press to jump, and the jump animation overrides the sprint animation in a seamless continution of actions.

You can do the same with most abilities and attacks in ESO, and those effects will still apply even if the animation is shorted with cancels. That's basically the crux of the disagreement. Some want that to stay, others don't. I personally suggest taking in as much information as you can on the subject before choosing a side in the debate on that issue, if you do at all.

Thank you and I agree. I don't have a side.

Frawr

Yes get rid of it

I think that the pole could be more specific.

Do I think that we should be forced to complete all animations, preventing us from blocking/dodging etc (reacting) mid animation? - no. This would ruin reactive combat.

Do I think that players should be able to do damage without ever letting the swing/arrow/particle effect ever strike the target - no.

All animations should be cancellable, however, the damage should be tied to the visual cue. If the visual cue is cancelled before the strike occurs then, and only then, no damage should occur.

This allows players to react, to block incoming attacks, but syncronises the visual aspect of combat to the numbers aspect.

rfennell_ESO

Yes get rid of it

dday3six wrote: »

Do you have proof of your claims?


What if I want you to provide proof of your claim? There are people who keep saying these things, and they'll happily tell another to go test it for themselves, but they never are willing to provide evidence of this claim.

I love the "you must provide proof that people cheat at games" angle you keep trying for.

People cheat whenever they can get away with it.

Nearly every day I see some scripted attack sequence that is basically a barrage of attacks that hit nearly simultaneously (including heavy attack right in the middle of a wrecking blow). They don't have to hit at the same time, they only have to hit as quickly as the combat system will allow, which with the way animation cancelling currently operates is way too fast.

The "problem" is that ZOS has taken the stance that these things are bannable offenses.

Here is some logic for you: Why would macroing and scripting be bannable if they couldn't be exploited?

I'm sure the reply will be "u needz too showe proofs"

Now add things like scripted lag or an actual lag switch to macroing and the results are even more pronounced. They would be a problem without animation cancelling, but they are even larger problem with it. Alone they are an advantage without any lag gimmicks...

There is even a program out there that I can name (because offering "proof" just means ZOS edits it out) that does all these things for you.

Overall, animation cancelling would be fine if it wasn't abused to eliminate animations, which is the crux of the problem.

dday3six

No let it stay

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Do you have proof of your claims?


What if I want you to provide proof of your claim? There are people who keep saying these things, and they'll happily tell another to go test it for themselves, but they never are willing to provide evidence of this claim.

I love the "you must provide proof that people cheat at games" angle you keep trying for.

People cheat whenever they can get away with it.

Nearly every day I see some scripted attack sequence that is basically a barrage of attacks that hit nearly simultaneously (including heavy attack right in the middle of a wrecking blow). They don't have to hit at the same time, they only have to hit as quickly as the combat system will allow, which with the way animation cancelling currently operates is way too fast.

The "problem" is that ZOS has taken the stance that these things are bannable offenses.

Here is some logic for you: Why would macroing and scripting be bannable if they couldn't be exploited?

I'm sure the reply will be "u needz too showe proofs"

Now add things like scripted lag or an actual lag switch to macroing and the results are even more pronounced. They would be a problem without animation cancelling, but they are even larger problem with it. Alone they are an advantage without any lag gimmicks...

There is even a program out there that I can name (because offering "proof" just means ZOS edits it out) that does all these things for you.

Overall, animation cancelling would be fine if it wasn't abused to eliminate animations, which is the crux of the problem.

We're just going to go in a circle with this. You're claiming near impossible things.

There's no way to script or macros a heavy attack into the animation of a WB without literally hacking into the server and altering it's governance. So yes, I would ask for you provide proof of your claim, seeing that it is impossible within the standard confines of the game's programming.

Lysette

Yes get rid of it

To me this smells like cheating and should be removed.

KanedaSyndrome

Yes get rid of it

Get rid of it. It was never intended, it's a bug that became a feature when they gave up on addressing it.

Vorcil

No let it stay

The only people complaining about this, are people who can't actually do it.

Spend some time practicing, watch a couple youtube videos; it's simple a.f.

If there's no animation cancelling, there will be no skill involved in anything.

Already noobs spam biting jabs or executioner.

Without animation cancelling, there would be no end game skill mechanics.

Casterial

No let it stay

Vorcil wrote: »

The only people complaining about this, are people who can't actually do it.

Spend some time practicing, watch a couple youtube videos; it's simple a.f.

If there's no animation cancelling, there will be no skill involved in anything.

Already noobs spam biting jabs or executioner.

Without animation cancelling, there would be no end game skill mechanics.

THANK YOU. Heres the solution!

/endthread

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Yes get rid of it

JackDaniell wrote: »

Taking away animation cancelling would ruin the responsiveness and flow of combat, the problem isn't that cancelling is hard to learn or cheating, it's that most people just haven't been taught how to do it. If you don't want to learn to cancel spam this like jabs and wrecking blow.

I respectfully disagree.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind animation cancelling and I've been doing it reflexively since the game launched.

But ESO was advertised with a minimal UI, and one of the devs (it might have been Paul Sage) said, "We don't want you playing your UI, we want you playing the game that's happening on your screen".

And I like that idea. My problem with animation cancelling is that I'm not responding to what my opponents are doing on-screen. I'm responding to an unseen meta where my opponent is loading as many attacks into as short a window as possible.

I personally enjoy acting and reacting to what my enemy is actually DOING on the screen - NOT the things that are happening behind someone's keyboard that I'll never be able to see.

I want the ebb and flow of battle to occur in real-time, visually.

YMMV. That's just my 2 Septims.

Lysette

Yes get rid of it

Vorcil wrote: »

The only people complaining about this, are people who can't actually do it.

Spend some time practicing, watch a couple youtube videos; it's simple a.f.

If there's no animation cancelling, there will be no skill involved in anything.

Already noobs spam biting jabs or executioner.

Without animation cancelling, there would be no end game skill mechanics.

It is a role playing game, your real world skills should not matter, just your character's skills.