Fights are Endless in Non-Vet PvP Right Now

Paradox

zornyan wrote: »

Have the basic stats increased in bwb since battle leveling now makes you a vr14 in blue gear?

As atm, with food and an ayelid well, I'm hitting 41k hp on console

Slightly higher, not much. Damage is close to nothing. Siege does no damage. Healing is exceedingly more powerful for groups, making zergs the only viable option there. Sure, one or two bad players will die to a good player, but any decent or average blackwater player will never die.

zornyan

So kind of like how it is now? I can sit in a group of 6 people attacking me and not die quite easily. Same 1v1 I met a sorc shield stacking spamming crystal frags, I was blocking/healing.

Literially after 20 minutes I just called a couple guys from my guild to come kill him, still took 5 minutes after that.

I thought healing took a nerf?

Paradox

zornyan wrote: »

So kind of like how it is now? I can sit in a group of 6 people attacking me and not die quite easily. Same 1v1 I met a sorc shield stacking spamming crystal frags, I was blocking/healing.

Literially after 20 minutes I just called a couple guys from my guild to come kill him, still took 5 minutes after that.

I thought healing took a nerf?

You really don't understand the extent of the issue. If I can't convey it properly in text, then go ahead and enjoy it in a day. Good day, sir.

josh.lackey_ESO

Another factor that's completely unrelated to BWB mechanics is that they added battle level for v1 -> v14. It used to be you'd vet out of BWB, then you had something of a grind in the PvE world doing Cadwell's silver and gold before you could realistically go into vet PvP and be competitive. It was much less daunting to just roll another toon and grind from 3 -> 10 then hop right back into Cyrodiil.

I don't think the "broken" builds that let people do absurd 1v10 or 1v15 fights were discovered in a week. They fixed a lot of bugs (and exploits) in this patch, in addition to the damage and healing nerfs. I say that with due respect. Player skill is as much working out a good build and understanding the mechanics as is it combat reflexes and timing. You use what works, whether it was intended or not.

Off the top of my head, three changes could have broken some of the powerful BWB builds: Nirnhoned, Mace armor penetration, and healing ward. Arguably, they were are bugged to be much better than they should have been. Even without the additional changes to battle spirit, those changes were a bummer for a lot of builds.

Not everything 2.1 brought to the table is bad, though. There are some upsides that have yet to be fully realized. For example, if I understand the patch notes correctly, Rewards for the Worthy should be giving out set pieces at any level -- and that should make some sets that were previously vet-only available in non-vet. Since some builds hinge entirely around a set bonus, that's not trivial. Another good change is that the game client now exposes a LOT more combat data to you. FTC hasn't been updated yet to take advantage of this yet, but knowing precisely EVERY effect that is applied to you (or that you have applied to a target) gives skilled players an advantage. It also makes understand mechanics much easier.

I think it's premature to decide if BWB has been broken, or if ZOS has just moved the cheese. I think a lot of the individuals and guilds that left BWB for vet will come back. I think that clever players will figure out new and interesting mechanics that work better. I hate to see everyone disaffected and giving up after playing just one week with the new stuff.

Paradox

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Another factor that's completely unrelated to BWB mechanics is that they added battle level for v1 -> v14. It used to be you'd vet out of BWB, then you had something of a grind in the PvE world doing Cadwell's silver and gold before you could realistically go into vet PvP and be competitive. It was much less daunting to just roll another toon and grind from 3 -> 10 then hop right back into Cyrodiil.

I don't think the "broken" builds that let people do absurd 1v10 or 1v15 fights were discovered in a week. They fixed a lot of bugs (and exploits) in this patch, in addition to the damage and healing nerfs. I say that with due respect. Player skill is as much working out a good build and understanding the mechanics as is it combat reflexes and timing. You use what works, whether it was intended or not.

Off the top of my head, three changes could have broken some of the powerful BWB builds: Nirnhoned, Mace armor penetration, and healing ward. Arguably, they were are bugged to be much better than they should have been. Even without the additional changes to battle spirit, those changes were a bummer for a lot of builds.

Not everything 2.1 brought to the table is bad, though. There are some upsides that have yet to be fully realized. For example, if I understand the patch notes correctly, Rewards for the Worthy should be giving out set pieces at any level -- and that should make some sets that were previously vet-only available in non-vet. Since some builds hinge entirely around a set bonus, that's not trivial. Another good change is that the game client now exposes a LOT more combat data to you. FTC hasn't been updated yet to take advantage of this yet, but knowing precisely EVERY effect that is applied to you (or that you have applied to a target) gives skilled players an advantage. It also makes understand mechanics much easier.

I think it's premature to decide if BWB has been broken, or if ZOS has just moved the cheese. I think a lot of the individuals and guilds that left BWB for vet will come back. I think that clever players will figure out new and interesting mechanics that work better. I hate to see everyone disaffected and giving up after playing just one week with the new stuff.

The good players can't kill each other at all. Zergs are the norm. Siege is useless. Builds mean nothing if a zerg rolls you. Blackwater IS broken and ZoS simply doesn't care.

Woman

@josh.lackey_ESO I am in support of all the changes except for adding the damage mitigation in BWB. They balanced vet to be more like BWB but then added that to BWB making the time to kill here kind of insane. You can no longer defend a keep if you are out numbered since siege is useless, all damage a player does is out done by health regeneration, and healing not makes any damage impossible. I'm sure some people are not happy with the changes but my build was personally not merged at all but rather made stronger and I still find the mitigation ridiculous. A lot of us have been in BWB and gone through insane changes over the last year- the biggest one being 1.6. We stuck it out because those changes just meant we had to change our builds to be effective. Here there is no build that will be effective, since it's damage mitigation across the board. The only build that works now is a Zerg.

Merlight

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

I think it's premature to decide if BWB has been broken, or if ZOS has just moved the cheese. I think a lot of the individuals and guilds that left BWB for vet will come back. I think that clever players will figure out new and interesting mechanics that work better. I hate to see everyone disaffected and giving up after playing just one week with the new stuff.

BwB received zero testing, and this is the result. You don't need a week to figure out that it's been broken, and that Battle Spirit is to blame. We appreciate they fixed some bugs (that were not specific to BwB), but Battle Spirit change was not needed in BwB.

And now back to gathering v10+ mats in non-vet area...

Tillalarrien

Yep agreed.. I really like most of the new changes includin battle leveling for vet and IC is awesome. The only 2 major things in new patch I have a problem with and ARE currently destroying BwB are:

- Damage reduction (making fights endless, sieges boring, siege weapons useless and zergs only viable way of winning)
- Resources being worth equal to a scroll (cause that just doesnt make sense)

Both things require change, but 1st one should be changed asap as its the reason ppl are leaving and cant enjoy BwB anymore.. I dont say ZOS should revert battle spirit it in vet campaigns - there the damage feels ok - just in bwb new damage reduction is making every fight sleepy, endless and boring - so it need adjusting. Now its up to ZOS to decide if they want to destroy one of their better PVP communities or listen to the feedback and adjust a thing or two.

Paradox

All we *** ask is that they remove the changes to non-vet. Yet we're totally ignored.

We'll see tomorrow if ZoS has enough sense to fix the campaign they just killed.

Drewzi

What's really a shame is I leveled my alts strictly through pvp in bwb. Now that the zone is useless I haven't been playing them much at all.

Mauz

Paradox wrote: »

All we *** ask is that they remove the changes to non-vet. Yet we're totally ignored.

We'll see tomorrow if ZoS has enough sense to fix the campaign they just killed.

Ever got an idea you could be part of the problem?

I agree it was better before but its far away from unplayable. All I hear is "its ruined, you cant kill anybody, zos do something, my build does not work anymore, I cant even out dps the rediculous health reg" How about adepting your build? Leaving some defense behind and optimize dps? But no you just want to stay dps tank. But in BwB there are no working builds for dps tanks left. A pure tank might be useful for vet but in bwb it's simply a waisted slot.

Apart from that guessing how the software architecture of this game seems to be done from what I can see playing its not about "just fixing" it. If I would be ZOS I wouldnt do it for some 100 most of which dont even have a paid account.

JamilaRaj

Mauz wrote: »

If I would be ZOS I wouldnt do it for some 100 most of which dont even have a paid account.

That is ZOS's problem and spectacularly bad business decision. BWB had been accreting more and more players and that was when subs were compulsory and playerbase in other areas of their game was not exactly growing. Those players had fun and were willing to pay for subs. ZOS very well could have made profit, ironically, if they did not do anything. Instead, they reworked subs (now actually harmful to BWB players), started selling items in the cash shop (not needed), DLC (not needed except for P2W aspect in that players with OP sets might eventually dominate BWB) and indirectly messed with the campaign.

Paradox

Mauz wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

All we *** ask is that they remove the changes to non-vet. Yet we're totally ignored.

We'll see tomorrow if ZoS has enough sense to fix the campaign they just killed.

Ever got an idea you could be part of the problem?

I agree it was better before but its far away from unplayable. All I hear is "its ruined, you cant kill anybody, zos do something, my build does not work anymore, I cant even out dps the rediculous health reg" How about adepting your build? Leaving some defense behind and optimize dps? But no you just want to stay dps tank. But in BwB there are no working builds for dps tanks left. A pure tank might be useful for vet but in bwb it's simply a waisted slot.

Apart from that guessing how the software architecture of this game seems to be done from what I can see playing its not about "just fixing" it. If I would be ZOS I wouldnt do it for some 100 most of which dont even have a paid account.

What you're telling me to do is reroll. I have some of the highest DPS of the magicka DKs in BwB, and there's no optimizing it at this point. I'm not going to reroll stamina because ZoS failed to test anything about non-vet.

Mjollo

Mauz wrote: »

Ever got an idea you could be part of the problem?

I agree it was better before but its far away from unplayable. All I hear is "its ruined, you cant kill anybody, zos do something, my build does not work anymore, I cant even out dps the rediculous health reg" How about adepting your build? Leaving some defense behind and optimize dps? But no you just want to stay dps tank. But in BwB there are no working builds for dps tanks left. A pure tank might be useful for vet but in bwb it's simply a waisted slot.

How do you suggest that I optimize my DPS as an already DPS build? In a campaign where damage numbers from sets don't work?

Blackwater Blade didn't NEED more DPS because everyone had a decent amount of damage (especially since it was difficult enough to try and raise your base damage properly), So it was the art of adding survivability to everyone's builds that made it fun. You couldn't burst anyone down as fast as vet and your builds were based around staying alive over glass cannon-type play styles.

I can still kill plenty of people but it's way too slow since everyone has 30k health and a concealed weapon would hit for 3k. So factor in the enemies health regen, enemy damage shields, and enemy spell resistance and I am doing virtually no damage.

QuebraRegra

zornyan wrote: »

So kind of like how it is now? I can sit in a group of 6 people attacking me and not die quite easily. Same 1v1 I met a sorc shield stacking spamming crystal frags, I was blocking/healing.

Literially after 20 minutes I just called a couple guys from my guild to come kill him, still took 5 minutes after that.

I thought healing took a nerf?

and this is a good thing because?

Tillalarrien

Aaand: no changes in this week's patch.. Guys.. Good old BwB is gone for good

SturgeHammer

Angarato wrote: »

wait so all the vets are leaving non-vet? sounds like a good idea. give non-vet back to the actual non-vets

A lot of the people leaving are BWB regulars that have spent little time on their vet toons. I don't see a mass exodus of non-toxic players as a good thing.

Woman

Mauz wrote: »

I agree it was better before but its far away from unplayable. All I hear is "its ruined, you cant kill anybody, zos do something, my build does not work anymore, I cant even out dps the rediculous health reg" How about adepting your build? Leaving some defense behind and optimize dps? But no you just want to stay dps tank. But in BwB there are no working builds for dps tanks left. A pure tank might be useful for vet but in bwb it's simply a waisted slot.

I haven't run a tank build in Blackwater since February. I do the highest DPS possible in Blackwater for a Magic NB- the only thing that could increase it would be more CP. You cannot add spell power in BWB so I'm not sure how you would like me to change my build when Battle Level makes that impossible. Considering that 3/4 of BWB literally left the campaign, I don't think saying "its ruined" is a hyperbole. I hate being negative on the forums, because I love this game to death. However its hard to see the most enjoyable and well received content in the game be destroyed because of a silly mistake that can easily be reverted (remove damage mitigation change for Non-Vet campaign).

SturgeHammer

Mauz wrote: »

I agree it was better before but its far away from unplayable. All I hear is "its ruined, you cant kill anybody, zos do something, my build does not work anymore, I cant even out dps the rediculous health reg" How about adepting your build? Leaving some defense behind and optimize dps? But no you just want to stay dps tank. But in BwB there are no working builds for dps tanks left. A pure tank might be useful for vet but in bwb it's simply a waisted slot.

You are right, it isn't unplayable and honestly I am making more kills than before (except for my lvl 16 sorc, he's in bad shape and needs tuned). Most of the players commenting on this are fully capable of adapting, the problem is that the new combat is so clunky and so much less fun that long time players are leaving and new players would rather pve. It is hard to defend a change that is causing such a large breakup of the BWB player base. ZOS needs to act quickly on this because anyone who has seen BWB at its low points knows that empty BWB is miserable and it takes a long time for the lost population to come back.

CP5

Woman wrote: »

Mauz wrote: »

I agree it was better before but its far away from unplayable. All I hear is "its ruined, you cant kill anybody, zos do something, my build does not work anymore, I cant even out dps the rediculous health reg" How about adepting your build? Leaving some defense behind and optimize dps? But no you just want to stay dps tank. But in BwB there are no working builds for dps tanks left. A pure tank might be useful for vet but in bwb it's simply a waisted slot.

I haven't run a tank build in Blackwater since February. I do the highest DPS possible in Blackwater for a Magic NB- the only thing that could increase it would be more CP. You cannot add spell power in BWB so I'm not sure how you would like me to change my build when Battle Level makes that impossible. Considering that 3/4 of BWB literally left the campaign, I don't think saying "its ruined" is a hyperbole. I hate being negative on the forums, because I love this game to death. However its hard to see the most enjoyable and well received content in the game be destroyed because of a silly mistake that can easily be reverted (remove damage mitigation change for Non-Vet campaign).

I know AD side (NA server) that several of the larger guilds have been either absent or very rarely show in non-vet now. What's left are a bunch of smaller groups trying to coordinate, and whichever side has the largest organized zerg just rolls over the map.

Woman

CP5 wrote: »

I know AD side (NA server) that several of the larger guilds have been either absent or very rarely show in non-vet now. What's left are a bunch of smaller groups trying to coordinate, and whichever side has the largest organized zerg just rolls over the map.

Yup It really sucks. A lot of us have gone to True Flame for now if you're interested, but it'll never be as fun as BWB

CP5

Woman wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I know AD side (NA server) that several of the larger guilds have been either absent or very rarely show in non-vet now. What's left are a bunch of smaller groups trying to coordinate, and whichever side has the largest organized zerg just rolls over the map.

Yup It really sucks. A lot of us have gone to True Flame for now if you're interested, but it'll never be as fun as BWB

Never was a fan of vet pvp, guess i'll drag my stamina sorc over there, as poorly built and equip as they are.

Woman

CP5 wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I know AD side (NA server) that several of the larger guilds have been either absent or very rarely show in non-vet now. What's left are a bunch of smaller groups trying to coordinate, and whichever side has the largest organized zerg just rolls over the map.

Yup It really sucks. A lot of us have gone to True Flame for now if you're interested, but it'll never be as fun as BWB

Never was a fan of vet pvp, guess i'll drag my stamina sorc over there, as poorly built and equip as they are.

Try the new battle level, it's a lot of fun. The entire situation sucks though Unfortunately I know over 20 people personally that have temporarily quit because of it. BWB was kind of the safety net that caught people before they quit the game from the other content.

Mauz

Woman wrote: »

I hate being negative on the forums, because I love this game to death. However its hard to see the most enjoyable and well received content in the game be destroyed because of a silly mistake that can easily be reverted (remove damage mitigation change for Non-Vet campaign).

As I said I dont think its a simple change. Although I dont have the impression ZOS cares for anything else but end game and ppl spending the major part of their life with it. I moved to bwb cause of the lags. After this patch I wanted to go back but its noone there. Its a bore. For me the cp system was the final coffin nail anyway cause I cant keep up with 5h played per week. Its just a question of time others collect so many cps that it becomes rediculous.

Maybe in EU its different than in US. In EU most of the bwb vets where using resto, 1h/shield or in most cases both. "Afraid to die" would be the best description of the most common playstyle before 1.7. Do anything to get even the the last minor advantage and fight in groups against inferior ppl using nirn gear, dawnbreaker, meteor, clouded swarm with 30 etc. Most of them left which I find is a good thing.

What I changed for my toon was traits and enchants, and I removed some defensive skills to increase dmg. Half of the reduction I compensated with this. And its far from being optimized. I could get further dps by using food instead of drinks, its low level most dmg increasing passives are still missing. So Im sure with lvl 40 I'll be nearly back at my former dps.

Then I changed my playstyle to make use of the changes to dodge, block, heals and shields. Fights are longer but they definitely end cause resource management is much more difficult, and then you can make use of any kind of heal reduction to make heals do literally nothing.

But yes I agree to you. It was much more fun before. And its sad content was damaged everybody agreed to be the most fun in pvp. But my experience with ZOS since release makes me believe they dont do anything about. it so I'm just making the best out of it...at least until pvp in this game will become unplayable for newbies and casuals cause of the growing cp pool of power gamers. For pure casual pvp I find the arcade mode of warthunder a good alternative btw.

Vyle_Byte

Unfreakinbelievable. This thread has been up for 10 days. 10 days and no word, not even a /lurk. Screw damage control. They need to fix BWB. It was almost perfect. They screwed it up they need to address it. A simple acknowledgement ZOS. You KNOW that's all we really need and yet here this thread sits completely ignored.

You DO realize that alot of people who play on BWB literally reroll to continue playing there right? It isn't just preschool before the big Vet campaigns for some of us. This is the campaign some of us really care about.

Fix. Our. Friggin. Campaign.

QuebraRegra

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

Unfreakinbelievable. This thread has been up for 10 days. 10 days and no word, not even a /lurk. Screw damage control. They need to fix BWB. It was almost perfect. They screwed it up they need to address it. A simple acknowledgement ZOS. You KNOW that's all we really need and yet here this thread sits completely ignored.

You DO realize that alot of people who play on BWB literally reroll to continue playing there right? It isn't just preschool before the big Vet campaigns for some of us. This is the campaign some of us really care about.

Fix. Our. Friggin. Campaign.

100%!!!!!!! With 7 alts thru BWB so far this is the only thing in the game, I can honestly say BWB is the only thing I care about.

We all knew that sooner or later CPs would pollute BWB if the CP free campaigns weren't rolled out fast enuff, but I thought we'd still have time to enjoy.

Listen to these people ZOS, restore the balance for the NON VET campaigns to pre-patch.

Valencer

Mauz wrote: »

Maybe in EU its different than in US. In EU most of the bwb vets where using resto, 1h/shield or in most cases both. "Afraid to die" would be the best description of the most common playstyle before 1.7. Do anything to get even the the last minor advantage and fight in groups against inferior ppl using nirn gear, dawnbreaker, meteor, clouded swarm with 30 etc. Most of them left which I find is a good thing.

Maybe we've been playing on a different EU campaign. Dawnbreaker and Meteor were such a rarity I don't know why anyone even mentions it. Some people got kicks out of hopelessly grinding books or undead just to look special in nonvet, yes, but it was hardly a common thing.

I don't know, maybe it's a good idea to not muddy the water with complaining about CP and other imaginary bogeyman stories. The new damage reduction has destroyed BwB, let's focus on that...

Merlight

Valencer wrote: »

Maybe we've been playing on a different EU campaign. Dawnbreaker and Meteor were such a rarity I don't know why anyone even mentions it. Some people got kicks out of hopelessly grinding books or undead just to look special in nonvet, yes, but it was hardly a common thing.

Agreed. I've been hit by Meteor once in the past 2 months, and by Dawnbreaker today for the first time

Woman

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

Fix. Our. Friggin. Campaign.

*chants with you*

Mauz

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Listen to these people ZOS, restore the balance for the NON VET campaigns to pre-patch.

Please not! Just increase the dmg a bit. The rest of the changes are fine.