Fights are Endless in Non-Vet PvP Right Now

zornyan

@SturgeHammer thanks for clearing that up, I'm eager to see how it feels when ic drops on console soon. I've got multiple pvp builds, so hopefully I should still be able to be fairly effective (pushing for emp achievement at some point in the next couple weeks)

mcurley

Paradox wrote: »

mcurley wrote: »

@Paradox I've seen your toons a bunch of times in BwB, you're a great player with good builds. What size groups did you kill all the time?

The only times I've ever been in a group of 4 or more and had any trouble at all bringing down 1 hero was when it was an Emp.

Also, I invite you to re-read the topic of this thread and the posts within it. If you do so you will clearly see that this topic is about the length of fights in BwB and what people believe to be contributing to them being "endless". I was very clear in my first post that without a gigantic difference in CP the fights are in fact not endless.

10 is about my maximum if they're half decent. 15 if they're entirely incompetent... Now, probably none. I'm done playing ESO until a lot of these changes are rolled back.

The reason that fights are now endless is entire due to ZoS being woefully inadequate at understanding or even considering how their changes affect nonvet pvp and its unique system. CP may play a role, but it's hardly a massive reason for the issues we're facing.

That's impressive even if the 10 were only half decent. I guess for some reason none of them were decent enough to heal though if you killed them all, lol.

I'm a bit bummed now that the only time I ever found you solo on the battlefield was when you were afk =/. It would have been fun to fight someone that tanky

raviour

Valencer wrote: »

Not sure what all this CP ruckus is about. It definitely isn't the real issue

Go play in Blackwater Blade right now and tell me if it's any fun. 1v1s between 2 competent players are guaranteed to be endless. For group play, the bigger group wins every single time. You can't burst people down AT ALL so there's no way to even the odds through good tactics.

Keep sieges are decided by whomever brings more people now, no way around it. Siege? Siege damage is too insignificant and 1 or 2 people purging a zerg basically guarantees they can do whatever they want so long as they dont stand still under oil for 30 seconds or something equally silly like that.

Was BWB like this before the Imperial City update hit? Definitely not, but CP were here before and after the update so that isn't a new thing.

I'm not hopeful about any of this changing, so I guess it's time to get my vet gear ready.

it feels the same just npc r really weak like after 1.6

some will always be hard to killl 1v1 ;p

Woman

mcurley wrote: »

@zornyan your 20% theory is also incorrect even though just 20% would be considerable anyway.

Let me put it into perspective for you. The following numbers were all before the patch so Nirn played a role too but these are just to give you an idea of how OP these players can be on PC BwB.

The CP troll I referred to before is a magicka NB just like me. A few levels higher but that doens't really matter... His non-crit Swallow Soul was hitting me for 3.7k and my non-crit Swallow Soul was hitting him for 1.3k. So 20% more damage? HAH try he does 285% more damage to me than I do to him. Also keep in mind that my non-crit Swallow Souls only hit the average player for about 2.1k meaning he was taking about 57% less damage than the average player... do you see now?

I hit for that amount in Blackwater... Or at least I did before the patch. I only have 200 CP and it helps me with defence and regen, barely for damage. Best magicka NB in BWB I know is Mini Skirt and he has 67 CP. Compare that to the average CP user in BWB who has 300+. I know it's a problem but your issue is your build, not a lack of CP. I'd be happy to help you with it though. Magicka NB is a blast!

zornyan

I can't wait, I've got a couple weeks off of work coming up (with the Mrs at work) So according to stats from zos in that time I should be able to get around 300cp grinded out, possible a fair few more if work hard and use scrolls etc.

So I fully expect to come on here with videos of me 1v10 owning everyone, one shotting everyone, not taking any damage at all.

Because that means I'll be a demi-god right? Jesus I can't wait for 285% more damage!!

PF1901

Spent a few hours in bwb tonight. Wasn't so bad after all. None of those "wth just happened burst death moments" and other stuff having me scratching my head - felt nice for a change.
Just my opinion: non-vet headed the wrong direction these past few weeks.
Siege engines (e.g. meatbag) / guards seem kind of weak though. We'll see.

Paradox

PF1901 wrote: »

Spent a few hours in bwb tonight. Wasn't so bad after all. None of those "wth just happened burst death moments" and other stuff having me scratching my head - felt nice for a change.
Just my opinion: non-vet headed the wrong direction these past few weeks.
Siege engines (e.g. meatbag) / guards seem kind of weak though. We'll see.

Try to fight more than one person alone. Watch two good players fight.

Rylana

I long for the days when players had 1900 health, a single fire ballista shot could clear a whole back flag, and guards were beastmode.

This game has gotten so bad. so... so very bad.

Woman

@Rylana Me too

Mjollo

Rylana wrote: »

I long for the days when players had 1900 health, a single fire ballista shot could clear a whole back flag, and guards were beastmode.

This game has gotten so bad. so... so very bad.

RIP never forget those days

Grunkins

My whole non-vet pvp guild has decided to vet out. I don't know what the hell to do now. BWB is a mess right now.

Paradox

The fact that this thread is being totally ignored justifies my decision to cancel my subscription.

Tillalarrien

Just to add my voice to this thread - damage reduction is killing BWB! both fights and sieges are too slow, you cannot even do a fast capture with smaller group as it takes so long that you get zerged no matter your preparation or tagging of nearby keeps.
I am sure that its here to give people more time to react and I appreciate the try but its working way too good - if two large groups clash on the open, one - clearly more organized as the other get fire balitas up and start sieging them - but then balistas do 0 damage cause even if it takes enemy group 5 seconds to finally cleanse they are still alive and almost full health!!
I played IC and damage reduction seems right for the place - but the rest of Cyrodiil needs former battle spirit back!

Dral_Shady

Its a disaster in Bwb now.
The larger zerg ALWAYS wins no skills, no strategy required. Setting up ballista makes no difference as the larger zerg can just brute force its way through them with no cost.
Taking a keep is done with brute force also. No tagging. no 50/50, just storm in with a superior force, the defenders will have no chance as the siege weapons does way too little dmg.
The balance in BwB was pretty decent before patch. You had a few "Nirn" guys running around but else it felt balanced with kill time healing and dmg. This smells badly of lack of testing and its gonna kill of BwB because now the smaller groups and faction have no chance to do anything productive since the Zergforce will have plenty of time to react and zerg them down.

zornyan

So with extra 30% damage mitigation, your now say I can survive 2 siege shots? Without healing etc?

Valencer

Rylana wrote: »

I long for the days when players had 1900 health, a single fire ballista shot could clear a whole back flag, and guards were beastmode.

This game has gotten so bad. so... so very bad.

And when tactics were needed to properly take resources. Good times

Truth be told, it's been a very different campaign ever since update 6. Update 7 just takes it to a whole new level of silliness though.

mcurley

zornyan wrote: »

Jesus I can't wait for 285% more damage!!

The numbers I posted were real and I stated that he was doing 285% more damage to me than I was to him. That is very very far from saying that CPs will increase your damage by 285%... but I guess only if you know how to do math.

GL with your Emp push!

CP5

Valencer wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

I long for the days when players had 1900 health, a single fire ballista shot could clear a whole back flag, and guards were beastmode.

This game has gotten so bad. so... so very bad.

And when tactics were needed to properly take resources. Good times

Truth be told, it's been a very different campaign ever since update 6. Update 7 just takes it to a whole new level of silliness though.

Or the time when a resource tower mage or archer guards could effectively wipe an entire group on their own. Challenging and fun in a pvp campaign without the frustration of large organized groups zerging around. Those were the times.

Mauz

Grunkins wrote: »

My whole non-vet pvp guild has decided to vet out. I don't know what the hell to do now. BWB is a mess right now.

I dont get what ppl have. Yesterday I was in with a low level magicka nb for some minutes. Fights did all end in an acceptable amount of time. You just cant tank whole raids anymore by holding the block button down over minutes and nuke them in parallel. Ok, you nevertheless go for max sustain and dont get ppl down especially if they are of the same kind...but why doing it then at all? Drop some sustain and increase your dmg and everything is fine again.

And to vet...I was in vet yesterday, at least for a short time after being at place 100+ in the waiting list. Whole map was red, with 4 ppl we took back alessia, no reds anywhere, I was at the lumber then, lag -> instant dead by guards 10 sec later. There were not even enemy players around. So thats vet. I found it disappointing.

DaveMoeDee

Mojmir wrote: »

so once again ZOS got it wrong, we said no to zergs, and they said "ok we'll encourage zergs".

People also whined a lot about being one-shotted. Maybe a new thread every day.

DaveMoeDee

zornyan wrote: »

I didn't mean in that exact instance asamel, I meant builds should have more of a direction. Maybe defined by class then?

Say a sorc as a class would have 20k hp but get 20k magika, where as a templar would get 30k hp but only 15k magika etc

There's already a huge difference between a level 10-49 in bwb, with no passives you'll get around 29k hp, with a heavy armor templar you'll get 34 odd hp, or a stam Nb will go from the 1100 odd weapon damage up to around 2000-2500

I'm not saying give a huge bonus for levels, I mean give each class/build a way of being different, the whole gear thing is achievable for everyone, but could give a small bonus to stastics of damage/armor to make it worth while.

The difference between light / med / heavy needs to be shown, it's silly that a full heavy armor wearing tank has no more resistance than someone naked. Hell last night for fun me and a group all went naked, just because it was funny that our stats barely changed, with no difference to armor at all.

If people aren't getting armor passives, all armor should (obviously) have the same armor stats.

If people are getting the benefit of their armor passives, than L/M/H armor should (obviously) have different armor stats.

DaveMoeDee

Mojmir wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

Unfortunately since there was no PTS testing for the non-vet campaign, current Blackwater is kind of a disaster. No one can be killed unless they are insanely targeted by 5+ people + siege, and I'm not discussing CP stacked or very skilled players. Fights in keeps just keep going on forever without any faction gaining ground and are feeling pointless. The reduced damage taken was needed for Vet PvP, but with Battle level we are already tanky enough.

TLDR: Combination of Battle Level + Reduced damage taken means everyone is immortal in Non-Vet PvP. This needs to be hotfixed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Non Vet Campaigns didn't need the damage/healing/shield reduction done.....

The ONLY thing Non Vet Campaigns needed was the removal of Champion Points.

This will not be popular, but I salute it...

I fail to see how that reply wouldn't be popular.

It won't take long for the high CP buffed players who claim "skillz" to catch wind of this thread and start the "LEARN TO PLAY" responses while refuting that CP is a factor at all. Certainly there are expliot builds, and some gear imbalance as well, but these are far less a factor in NON VET.

Those players, last time I was on regularly, were a very small minority and most people on non-vet did so because they wanted to avoid lag or enjoyed the campaign itself.

Oh granted that most come to play because frankly NON-VET is more fun (do a search, too many threads confirm this). Then ask yourself why is that?

The trouble is that every night I hear more and more players talking about how they are deciding to apply CPs to non-vet characters.

how can you not? the mechanic is in the game, to not take advantage of it is foolish.

Or, more practically speaking, if players use the CP in PvE, are they going to spend 3k to remove the CP if they enter PvP, and then spend 3k more when they leave to do PvE?

zornyan

mcurley wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Jesus I can't wait for 285% more damage!!

The numbers I posted were real and I stated that he was doing 285% more damage to me than I was to him. That is very very far from saying that CPs will increase your damage by 285%... but I guess only if you know how to do math.

GL with your Emp push!

Cheers, I got quite high in the scoring after just a casual day, thankfully 3 guild/group mates have also been emp and have agreed to help. So hopefully a few days hard work will pay off!

That was my point though, there's so many factors that you can't blame CP for them all. Yet people do

mcurley

After more time in-game last night, I can definitely admit that CPs are not the only problem in BwB. I do still think the essence of non-vet PvP calls for it to be CP free though.

SturgeHammer

What is a bit disappointing here is that even if this thread were to grab ZOS's attention the earliest fix would be in the next incremental patch, gonna be a slow Labor Day weekend in BWB.

Paradox

SturgeHammer wrote: »

What is a bit disappointing here is that even if this thread were to grab ZOS's attention the earliest fix would be in the next incremental patch, gonna be a slow Labor Day weekend in BWB.

OP tweeted this at Wheeler, Gina, and Jason... A little over a day ago. They know it exists. They just aren't bothering to take part in the discussion.

Woman

Almost every Non-Vet guild is abandoning BWB until the issue is fixed. I know there will always be QQ after patches and big changes, but I hope ZOS sees some of the names in this thread. The people in this thread are on average not the type to complain, I personally have only made one post complaining which was about CP in Blackwater (something even ZOS agreed with). A lot of us have worked hard to establish the community that BWB is famous for- and we're watching it basically go on hiatus.

A part of me fears that this is what ZOS wanted, all us regular BWBers to move to Vet with Imperial City- its the only thing that can explain the disaster in BWB right now. However as fun as IC is, we stay in BWB because it's the only campaign where people actually AvA. In Blackwater people want their alliances to win, they fight for more than AP, they take a scroll for more than a farm and they take Emperor for more than the title. I'm not homing in vet PvP unless a campaign magically gets a community that all believe in that- which I doubt won't happen for a long time. I created my guild to help sustain that community, but I can't do anything if everyone is leaving the campaign because it's currently broken.

Non-Vet PvP is where TESO sells itself. Whenever someone tries the game and doesn't like it, I tell them to come to BWB and they instantly become a part of the TESO community and begin buying crowns/sub.

ZOS, you had an area of your game that was statistically considered the most enjoyable by your community and thus, I personally think that it should be a priority to fix it. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

If you guys want the community's input on doing so- I would be happy to contribute what I can.

Hootnannius

It's truly sad that Zen has not even bothered to acknowledge or comment on this or similar threads. Before the patch, my AD guild in BWB would typically 2 full 24 player groups in non-vet, with a waiting list. Since the patch, my guild hasn't had a group with more 6 people in non-vet.

Last night the entire map was blue because AD was MIA.

I was about to stop playing ESO because of the extreme lag in AZ on my vet pvp. I remembered that BWB pvp was got me interested in the game to begin with and the same goes for a lot of people.

In a game with so many problems, don't understand why you ruin one of the few things that almost everyone agreed was fun and not broken.

If there's some logic or intent to these changes, how about telling us that?

Mjollo

I've been discouraged from playing the game these past few days. It was nice to enter BWB and run around in the fun state it used to be in. Honestly though, If changes aren't reverted in some way for that campaign, I have no incentive to play. Blackwater Blade is currently a dead campaign and it will remain that way until someone from Zenimax reacts to this thread.

Tillalarrien

I think new damage reduction works well for the IC, however its really REALY horrible for the campaigns - CAN'T there be two separate battle spirits: one for IC and one for Cyrodiil? - everything feels sleepy and you dont get anywhere, sieges take way too long - this destroys any tactics like taggs and 50/50s -and balistas do 0 damage to players, which makes them useless in group fights as you can calmly purge 5 seconds later without even damaging your health - in groups with dedicated healers that purge as soon as balista hit this makes balistas soo not worth buying I cant even find words to describe it. - Only viable way right now is to get a huge BLOB of players and just swarm the keep. And I really hate this playstyle as I imagine most ppl do - it is neither challenging nor fun. When it takes full day (due to lower pop then opposite faction and with fast unexpected sieges not possible anymore) to recapture 3 home keeps, even tough previously it was an action-packed and fun experiece that happened in half an hour, followed by defense and 1000 fun battles afterwards - well thats a sign that recent changes werent for the better. Most people already left which is really a shame as I considered it the most fun and balanced campaign of them all.

Another change that buggs me as hell is the new point system. WHY is one resource worth the same as a scroll? That gives people 0 intesive to actually go and try to get the scroll, which previously resoulted in INTENSE and FUN battles, as instead u can just split ur group and go cap 2 enemy resources just before the score evaluation - actually that gives you even MORE points while providing ZERO Fun and ZERO chalange!!!
Just a suggestion: resource 1p, keep 3p, scroll 6 points will make much more sense
The changes you made to diversifie tactics in PvP, just actually reduced viable ways of getting points to one per campaign (only keeps, only scrolls, or the worst of the all, the majestic "All 1 point" in BwB - look at how hard it is to capture a resource then how hard it is to get a scroll - the notion of them being worth equall amout of points is laughable..

Thing is Cyro in BwB was actually fun and active and recent changes just destroyed it - and Im not exagurating.
I not a person that thrives at raging on the forums and my intent is not to criticize but to alert you that changes must be made - I appreciate you experimenting with new rules and damage reductions, but the thing is they r clearly not working and are actually ruining the campaigns. As you can see on this thread I am not nearly alone in this tought - all regulars, ppl really dedicated to this campaign - are leaving in search of any campaign that might be better - but cant find ANY.. the community on BwB was really amazing and all 3 alliances were pretty balanced and active + vet campaigns are not the most friendly place to lvl 10 that joined this campaign in order to learn PvP and to think you should be v14 ( now v16) before you can even be competitive in PvP (there is no normal vet campaign anyway, but even if there was) its just sad, given that previous to changes this was a thriving community - Its really depressing to see all this crumble away so plys PLYS change it ASAP!! @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZOS_RichLambert