Fights are Endless in Non-Vet PvP Right Now

Mojmir

QuebraRegra wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

Unfortunately since there was no PTS testing for the non-vet campaign, current Blackwater is kind of a disaster. No one can be killed unless they are insanely targeted by 5+ people + siege, and I'm not discussing CP stacked or very skilled players. Fights in keeps just keep going on forever without any faction gaining ground and are feeling pointless. The reduced damage taken was needed for Vet PvP, but with Battle level we are already tanky enough.

TLDR: Combination of Battle Level + Reduced damage taken means everyone is immortal in Non-Vet PvP. This needs to be hotfixed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Non Vet Campaigns didn't need the damage/healing/shield reduction done.....

The ONLY thing Non Vet Campaigns needed was the removal of Champion Points.

This will not be popular, but I salute it...

I fail to see how that reply wouldn't be popular.

It won't take long for the high CP buffed players who claim "skillz" to catch wind of this thread and start the "LEARN TO PLAY" responses while refuting that CP is a factor at all. Certainly there are expliot builds, and some gear imbalance as well, but these are far less a factor in NON VET.

Those players, last time I was on regularly, were a very small minority and most people on non-vet did so because they wanted to avoid lag or enjoyed the campaign itself.

Oh granted that most come to play because frankly NON-VET is more fun (do a search, too many threads confirm this). Then ask yourself why is that?

The trouble is that every night I hear more and more players talking about how they are deciding to apply CPs to non-vet characters.

how can you not? the mechanic is in the game, to not take advantage of it is foolish.

QuebraRegra

because VET earned CPs have NO business being applied to non-vet characters... yet it's in the game. While we're at it, there's a lot in the game that doesn't make a #&^% bit of sense come to think of it.

There's a lot of mechanics that I'll not bother with for the obvious reasons... I guess I'll be the last person in the game not using WB soon?

Good news is NO CP campaigns coming, bad news is 2023 is the best guess for the date that goes into effect.

I'll leave with this priceless meme comeone came up with:

CP5

QuebraRegra wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

Unfortunately since there was no PTS testing for the non-vet campaign, current Blackwater is kind of a disaster. No one can be killed unless they are insanely targeted by 5+ people + siege, and I'm not discussing CP stacked or very skilled players. Fights in keeps just keep going on forever without any faction gaining ground and are feeling pointless. The reduced damage taken was needed for Vet PvP, but with Battle level we are already tanky enough.

TLDR: Combination of Battle Level + Reduced damage taken means everyone is immortal in Non-Vet PvP. This needs to be hotfixed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Non Vet Campaigns didn't need the damage/healing/shield reduction done.....

The ONLY thing Non Vet Campaigns needed was the removal of Champion Points.

This will not be popular, but I salute it...

I fail to see how that reply wouldn't be popular.

It won't take long for the high CP buffed players who claim "skillz" to catch wind of this thread and start the "LEARN TO PLAY" responses while refuting that CP is a factor at all. Certainly there are expliot builds, and some gear imbalance as well, but these are far less a factor in NON VET.

Those players, last time I was on regularly, were a very small minority and most people on non-vet did so because they wanted to avoid lag or enjoyed the campaign itself.

Oh granted that most come to play because frankly NON-VET is more fun (do a search, too many threads confirm this). Then ask yourself why is that?

The trouble is that every night I hear more and more players talking about how they are deciding to apply CPs to non-vet characters.

I remember when in non-vet each faction could barely get a full raid together and where these groups were defined the map. Eh, its still better than the vet campaigns, hope the devs will understand why when they make alternative campaigns outside of vet and non-vet.

AshTal

I miss blackwater blade. I out levelled it but the combat, difficulty and fact NPCs and walls actually stopped 4 PCs from taking a keep was good and fun. I suspect my best PvP memories will be when my Chars were there - but sounds like its been ruined.

If its any consolation the lag on the VET game and the gank squads mean on VET its still very easy to die having no idea what or who hit you.

Woman

@QuebraRegra If look at my post history, you'll see I'm 100% for having CP removed from BwB. I made a post a month ago that ZOS achknowledged but have since done nothing about. However I made this post for another reason and I'm really hoping for a quick hotfix to battle level.

Paradox

Seriously ZoS? No reply yet?

Do you guys even care about this game any more?

Alucardo

I had 5 EP's on me the other day - when I finally ran out of stamina I threw on immovable and just lol'd around the farm until 1 of them gave up and ran off. The rest followed him shortly after. They eventually came back with a fire ballista.. they found my weakness

Asmael

I'm sorry but...

The current state of BwB is a complete and utter failure.

To say that it's the fault of CPs is utter BS. CPs dont' allow you to stand in front of 5 people for 20 seconds while doing NOTHING, they don't allow you to take full oil damage (as a vamp, so add 25% to that) and having 5 guys spamming abilities on your face without issue.

No, what allows you to do this is a completely broken damage reduction.

More than anything, the main argument against zergs: sieges, had their efficiency basically divided by 2. You could have a zerg walking upstairs in a keep while a templar or two keeps spamming Purge and Healing Ritual.

It's just complete trash when a templar only casts Healing ritual, and you run out of stamina using only bash on him while Entropy-ing and Lava Whip-ing him.

Duels with decent players already took forever in some cases, now, even beating the hell out of a tanky/highly self-sustaining build is plain impossible.

I might sound angry, but making a blind bet on whether or not a major change will be balanced was an extremely bad decision.

Mauz

I was in bwb for about 1h with my stam nb last evening. It worked as I expected. Fights took longer but ppl go definitely down. Ok, my nb was 49 and optimized for bursting ppl down. So my dmg was still decent. But my survivability wasnt better althought I could use vigor. I simply couldnt mitigate by roll/block anymore without running out of stamina very quickly. 1vX was nearly impossible. My nb had 25% less stam regen but some more mag regen, so resource management for stamina was much more difficult. I would include more magicka abilities and heavy attacks if my nb would not be vr since yesterday

I found it still playable. But 1.6 it was better though. These unkillable builds shouldnt become too popular otherwise it'll really suck.

But if the lags are gone I wanted to go back vr anyway. My tomcat got some decent buffs and cloak seems to work much better now

raviour

bwb has still been great fun its the mentality of players scared to go around alone that spoils it, yesterday the npc were bugged n giving minimal agro i got arrow sprayed by an archer in a keep ;p npc in ash did nothing

it was easy to kill other player in ic 1 v 1

olsborg

Meanwhile, my v1 stamblade with 14k hp base, was battleveled to azura star for almost 40k hp ^^

Asmael

My v10 stam DK had her max stamina nerfed while entering Chillrend

Gimme my 10k+ Unstable flame back you monsters!

On a side note, capping keeps in non-vet is waaaaaay too easy right now. Solocapping resources, 3-man capping keeps (could certainly be done with less than that)...

Where's my old BwB?

mcurley

I have to say I was PISSED at work yesterday reading this thread before being able to play. After spending a couple hours in BwB last night my mind was changed about the damage, not the CPs.

I roll a lvl 29 NB with only 39 CPs and I did absolutely fine last night in 1v1s, 1v2s, and even once in a 1v3. The fights took a bit longer and I felt like I had to concentrate more on perfect execution but they definitely ended.

NBs, I would highly recommend slotting impale/killers blade to finish fights faster.

I was having tons of fun and was so happy that the game wasn't broken like I thought it would be... then I found one of the known NA BwB CP trolls and it felt like I was flicking rubber bands at a stone wall. Granted, I was able to survive a lot longer against this person than I ever was before, but I was not able to even dent their health bar and that was depressing. Not that I ever killed them solo before but this time it was even more ridiculously 1-sided.

zornyan wrote: »

CP is the flavour of the month scape goat, I'm a console player, that has fought and beaten multiple pc transfers that had 200+ CP (I asked them because they actually accused ME or having thousands lol) I have a grand total of....30!

I had hate mail from a sorc that failed to gank me, saying I was a "pc transfer scrub that obviously had to transfer as I must have sucked on pc" when I said "how many do you have then" he replied with something like 239 or whatever.

I sent him a Screenshot of my 30, he didn't reply after that.....

I spent an entire day ganking in bwb on ps4 eu, I had zero issues killing anyone of any level in mostly under 6 seconds, only exception is a couple well played Dk's that took a good 30 seconds to bring down due to gdb and igneous spamming.

Anyway CP isn't the be all and end all, it's an excuse for bad players to blame the game, seriously someone doing 20% more damage than you is what means you suck? Not the fact that they are a better player? Or have more experience, or have spent time making gear..

No no no it.must be the CP!

I congratulate you on being able to do well but you can't compare console BwB to PC BwB. The difference in average skill level is off the charts (I've never played console but I've seen videos and it's hilarious how bad most players are there).

A 6 second gank from a NB sounds about right as of last night as long as the person only casts one defensive spell/ability and doesn't try to block anything at all... but that almost never happens on PC.

Maybe console CPs haven't gotten high enough yet but on PC they are very obviously the issue now just as they were before the update. Also, wtf are you talking about... 20% more damage and less damage taken is hugely overpowered and should make any competent player stomp you into oblivion unless they mess up big time or their game crashes.... and any player with lolCPs is definitely a competent player. That's like saying someone with a 20% higher salary than you is only slightly better off (assuming you live in the same place and aren't making minimum wage).

Woman

@Asmael I do miss guards actually being scary That little bit of pve in pvp was a blast

zornyan

mcurley wrote: »

I have to say I was PISSED at work yesterday reading this thread before being able to play. After spending a couple hours in BwB last night my mind was changed about the damage, not the CPs.

I roll a lvl 29 NB with only 39 CPs and I did absolutely fine last night in 1v1s, 1v2s, and even once in a 1v3. The fights took a bit longer and I felt like I had to concentrate more on perfect execution but they definitely ended.

NBs, I would highly recommend slotting impale/killers blade to finish fights faster.

I was having tons of fun and was so happy that the game wasn't broken like I thought it would be... then I found one of the known NA BwB CP trolls and it felt like I was flicking rubber bands at a stone wall. Granted, I was able to survive a lot longer against this person than I ever was before, but I was not able to even dent their health bar and that was depressing. Not that I ever killed them solo before but this time it was even more ridiculously 1-sided.

zornyan wrote: »

CP is the flavour of the month scape goat, I'm a console player, that has fought and beaten multiple pc transfers that had 200+ CP (I asked them because they actually accused ME or having thousands lol) I have a grand total of....30!

I had hate mail from a sorc that failed to gank me, saying I was a "pc transfer scrub that obviously had to transfer as I must have sucked on pc" when I said "how many do you have then" he replied with something like 239 or whatever.

I sent him a Screenshot of my 30, he didn't reply after that.....

I spent an entire day ganking in bwb on ps4 eu, I had zero issues killing anyone of any level in mostly under 6 seconds, only exception is a couple well played Dk's that took a good 30 seconds to bring down due to gdb and igneous spamming.

Anyway CP isn't the be all and end all, it's an excuse for bad players to blame the game, seriously someone doing 20% more damage than you is what means you suck? Not the fact that they are a better player? Or have more experience, or have spent time making gear..

No no no it.must be the CP!

I congratulate you on being able to do well but you can't compare console BwB to PC BwB. The difference in average skill level is off the charts (I've never played console but I've seen videos and it's hilarious how bad most players are there).

A 6 second gank from a NB sounds about right as of last night as long as the person only casts one defensive spell/ability and doesn't try to block anything at all... but that almost never happens on PC.

Maybe console CPs haven't gotten high enough yet but on PC they are very obviously the issue now just as they were before the update. Also, wtf are you talking about... 20% more damage and less damage taken is hugely overpowered and should make any competent player stomp you into oblivion unless they mess up big time or their game crashes.... and any player with lolCPs is definitely a competent player. That's like saying someone with a 20% higher salary than you is only slightly better off (assuming you live in the same place and aren't making minimum wage).

A good player with little to no CPs can and will beat a bad player with lots of CP. That's it.

20% damage buff? That's not going to turn you into a god, hell I don't even have rally (so I just got 20% from flying dagger woop) Yet I can stomp people.

So you're telling me, that now I get 20% more damage, I should be able to take on 5 at once instead of 2 yeah? Sweet!

It's not hugely overpowered, yes it's a bonus for the days of grinding but it's not God mode.

Will it make a good player better? Yeah of course. But I already know a couple dk's in bwb that have zero CP, that could tank 7 players at once, fairly easily. Sure CPs would make them better, but I for one couldn't tank 3 at once with mine as I'm just not as good.

mcurley

@zornyan I'm sorry man but you are completely wrong. Like I said before, you can't compare console to PC. Any person who has played PC BwB for a decent amount of time can and will tell you that CPs make people demi-gods (maybe not gods since they can die to about 10 players after a while if they don't just escape).

Once again, I commend you on being able to kill people in the kiddie pool that is console non-vet PvP, but you have absolutely no ground to stand on when it comes to PC BwB. If you think you can kill or even 5v1 a player who actually has a lot of CPs (not just 200+ like you seem to think is a lot) then you are quite delusional.

SturgeHammer

zornyan wrote: »

CP is the flavour of the month scape goat, I'm a console player, that has fought and beaten multiple pc transfers that had 200+ CP (I asked them because they actually accused ME or having thousands lol) I have a grand total of....30!

I had hate mail from a sorc that failed to gank me, saying I was a "pc transfer scrub that obviously had to transfer as I must have sucked on pc" when I said "how many do you have then" he replied with something like 239 or whatever.

I sent him a Screenshot of my 30, he didn't reply after that.....

I spent an entire day ganking in bwb on ps4 eu, I had zero issues killing anyone of any level in mostly under 6 seconds, only exception is a couple well played Dk's that took a good 30 seconds to bring down due to gdb and igneous spamming.

Anyway CP isn't the be all and end all, it's an excuse for bad players to blame the game, seriously someone doing 20% more damage than you is what means you suck? Not the fact that they are a better player? Or have more experience, or have spent time making gear..

No no no it.must be the CP!

The issue here is the recent combat changes with the Imperial City update that isn't available on consoles yet. Even for players with low to no CPs combat has slowed down significantly. Once you have IC it is likely that your 6 second gank kills will turn into crazy long 1v1s. It's pretty tough to burst anyone with 30k health when your hardest hits are in the 4k range.

mcurley

@zornyan your 20% theory is also incorrect even though just 20% would be considerable anyway.

Let me put it into perspective for you. The following numbers were all before the patch so Nirn played a role too but these are just to give you an idea of how OP these players can be on PC BwB.

The CP troll I referred to before is a magicka NB just like me. A few levels higher but that doens't really matter... His non-crit Swallow Soul was hitting me for 3.7k and my non-crit Swallow Soul was hitting him for 1.3k. So 20% more damage? HAH try he does 285% more damage to me than I do to him. Also keep in mind that my non-crit Swallow Souls only hit the average player for about 2.1k meaning he was taking about 57% less damage than the average player... do you see now?

zornyan

@SturgeHammer I understand we don't have the patch yet, I merely met shouldn't the extra 20% mitigation be brought down a notch due to healing/shield spammers as they got hit too.

Looking at it from a pure statical point of view, it seemed like although my burst would brinf my average ttk down to say 9-10 seconds, sorcerers that shield stack, dk's that spam gdb and templars spamming heals shouldn't be able to recover as quick, kind of cancelling out the nerf?

I appreciate I haven't had a chance to play it, I am merely trying to understand how it went from 6 seconds to several minutes like the op is claiming.

@mcurley I'm not trying to directly compare the two, I am a former pc player of every game around, infact pc is my preferred platform (unfortunately not all games get released on them) and my only current reason for not being a pc player is where I live there simply isn't enough room for my setup, I used to have a dedicated 42" screen, Tower unit with various setup controllers etc, but I don't have room for it atm (seriously can't wait till I move and can get back to pc gaming, I'm extremely jealous of the add-ons you guys have not to mention graphical power)

Several of the players I have beaten have been pc transfers, although that could mean they were low skilled players there, I agree consoles aren't a match to pc players on a competitive level, my point was merely that someone with several hundred cp's isn't hard to beat, and since after 300cp (I believe statistically -300cp is the same as 300-1600 due to diminishing gains) the huge numbers aren't going to make you immortal.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but sypher and several others have posted videos of them, with all their CP removed, stomping groups of players into the ground, considering some if not all of the other players have CP, it's pretty easy to see skill plays a huge huge part... No?

zornyan

But what about gear? You both using the same weapons, with the same traits? Same passives? Same races? Etc

I see your point, but also for fairness sake the only way to actually judge it would be to.make you both naked, using the same weapon, (say a 2h) then hit a mutual player, then see what the difference is after he removed his CP.

If someone did this, and if 3600cps (even though the highest is 1650 odd atm) really did give you around 400% more damage, I would agree they need removing.

Mauz

zornyan wrote: »

So you're telling me, that now I get 20% more damage, I should be able to take on 5 at once instead of 2 yeah? Sweet!

No, he is not trying to tell you that it's just about dmg. Additionally you get more more mag, stam, hp AND your spells cost less AND you have more regen AND you take less dmg AND you get more heal AND your shields are stronger.

If someone just stands there and eats your dmg, ok. But all ppl I know don't. Even NPCs dont. Additionally these ppl know the game mechanics very well and so they are able to create perfect builds with endless sustain and insane dps which are squishy and tanky at the same time.

Before 1.7 my stamina nb killed ppl without cps within 1 gcd. Thats 27+k dmg in 1 sec. If I got in trouble I could perma dodge roll back to the next home keep doesnt matter how far that is and heal myself inbetween.. And I've only 130 cps. Try that without cps. You simply suck.

Valencer

Not sure what all this CP ruckus is about. It definitely isn't the real issue

Go play in Blackwater Blade right now and tell me if it's any fun. 1v1s between 2 competent players are guaranteed to be endless. For group play, the bigger group wins every single time. You can't burst people down AT ALL so there's no way to even the odds through good tactics.

Keep sieges are decided by whomever brings more people now, no way around it. Siege? Siege damage is too insignificant and 1 or 2 people purging a zerg basically guarantees they can do whatever they want so long as they dont stand still under oil for 30 seconds or something equally silly like that.

Was BWB like this before the Imperial City update hit? Definitely not, but CP were here before and after the update so that isn't a new thing.

I'm not hopeful about any of this changing, so I guess it's time to get my vet gear ready.

mcurley

Yes, skill is very important and plays a huge role in the outcome of most fights. It's why I don't automatically run and escape when I'm faced with multiple enemies.

I haven't seen the videos you refer to but I imagine they were not done in BwB and if they were then they were against a bunch of scrubs because only Emps or players with many many hundreds of CPs wiped groups in BwB before the patch... although some low CP players had builds that could survive a heavy onslaught without putting out much damage.

Paradox

mcurley wrote: »

Yes, skill is very important and plays a huge role in the outcome of most fights. It's why I don't automatically run and escape when I'm faced with multiple enemies.

I haven't seen the videos you refer to but I imagine they were not done in BwB and if they were then they were against a bunch of scrubs because only Emps or players with many many hundreds of CPs wiped groups in BwB before the patch... although some low CP players had builds that could survive a heavy onslaught without putting out much damage.

I did this. A lot. I have 150 CP. Now that they nerfed the set I used for no clear reason, removed blocking viability, destroyed roll dodge, and reduced healing to such a degree that you're better off spamming shields... I can't.

This thread is about reactions to the changes that negatively impacted BwB this week not CP. Woman has an excellent post already on the subject of CP in BwB and I invite you to post there. This is not a CP discussion.

zornyan

Bwb is and isn't balanced imo, the difference between a level 10-49 is huge, stupidly So, with the fact that people believe they are in a balanced environment.

My khajit Nb at level 10 was the basic 1100 weapon damage, with basicly no passives (I see a *** ton of sub level 20s in bwb)

He is now level 48, has 2500 weapon damage (including 20% from ambush empower and my mere 30cp), has 35%? Roll dodge cost buff, more recovery, more everything..

So I've got over double the damage of someone lower leveled, I'm sure they will blame it on CP though, hell my imperial in heavy armor with food and a few other buffs has 37k

SturgeHammer

zornyan wrote: »

@SturgeHammer I understand we don't have the patch yet, I merely met shouldn't the extra 20% mitigation be brought down a notch due to healing/shield spammers as they got hit too.

Looking at it from a pure statical point of view, it seemed like although my burst would brinf my average ttk down to say 9-10 seconds, sorcerers that shield stack, dk's that spam gdb and templars spamming heals shouldn't be able to recover as quick, kind of cancelling out the nerf?

I appreciate I haven't had a chance to play it, I am merely trying to understand how it went from 6 seconds to several minutes like the op is claiming.

The best way I can explain it is that a player in bwb is innately tanky and zos added a buff/debuff specifically to increase the duration of fights. This alone would would have an effect similar to what you described of adding a few seconds or more onto a fight. However the way itemization and buffs work with battle leveling heavily favors survivability as there are very few ways to increase your damage output. Some of those survivability options are not directly effected by the healing debuff like Major Evasion buff, Immovable, vamp passives, some item sets, any class skill that adds armor/spell resist, potions, and probably a bunch that I am leaving out. Most players use one of those things and that is going to add even more time to the fight. Even though heals are now nerfed, players have more time to react to actually use them. So that too will increase fight duration.

In summary, I think the core reasons for the greatly extended fight durations is a combination of the following things:
-Innate Battle Level tankiness
-Lots of survivability options that work with battle leveling
-Few dps options that work with battle leveling
-Survivability options that are Battle Spirit nerf agnostic


All that being said though, I played on my Stamina NB last night and he felt close to the same effectiveness that he had previously but the fights lasted longer, much longer. I was happy the way it was, some fixing was needed, but I don't believe Blackwater needed longer fights.

mcurley

@Paradox I've seen your toons a bunch of times in BwB, you're a great player with good builds. What size groups did you kill all the time?

The only times I've ever been in a group of 4 or more and had any trouble at all bringing down 1 hero was when it was an Emp.

Also, I invite you to re-read the topic of this thread and the posts within it. If you do so you will clearly see that this topic is about the length of fights in BwB and what people believe to be contributing to them being "endless". I was very clear in my first post that without a gigantic difference in CP the fights are in fact not endless.

Joy_Division

It was a mistake to ever adjust battle spirit in Backwater. Time to kill was never a problem there.

Paradox

mcurley wrote: »

@Paradox I've seen your toons a bunch of times in BwB, you're a great player with good builds. What size groups did you kill all the time?

The only times I've ever been in a group of 4 or more and had any trouble at all bringing down 1 hero was when it was an Emp.

Also, I invite you to re-read the topic of this thread and the posts within it. If you do so you will clearly see that this topic is about the length of fights in BwB and what people believe to be contributing to them being "endless". I was very clear in my first post that without a gigantic difference in CP the fights are in fact not endless.

10 is about my maximum if they're half decent. 15 if they're entirely incompetent... Now, probably none. I'm done playing ESO until a lot of these changes are rolled back.

The reason that fights are now endless is entire due to ZoS being woefully inadequate at understanding or even considering how their changes affect nonvet pvp and its unique system. CP may play a role, but it's hardly a massive reason for the issues we're facing.

QuebraRegra

Woman wrote: »

@QuebraRegra If look at my post history, you'll see I'm 100% for having CP removed from BwB. I made a post a month ago that ZOS achknowledged but have since done nothing about. However I made this post for another reason and I'm really hoping for a quick hotfix to battle level.

My apologies, I helped to take the point of the conversation far afield... This is NOT about CPs.

Your original point is VERY important!!!!! This needs to be fixed ASAP, or at least not implemented on the original schedule on consoles until it can be addressed.

ZOS, how much do I have to pay to not have to play a screwed up by patch NON-VET campaign? Also, how much to lock level at 49 and remain in non buggered NON-VET PVP forever?