Bolt Escape and Cloak should have the same treatment

Eejit1331

I have been playing both magicka sorc and magicka NB and after putting in some time on both classes I must say cloak is much more powerful due to the fact a NB can use a speed boost, cloak, break line of sight and never be found. I was trolling blue all night last night doing this, I would even cloak in the middle of twenty people, fear them attack one, cloak and I would be gone. So not only is cloak on par with bolt escape in regards to disengaging in a fight, I can linger around and range attack my enemy and Cloak again. If Bolt Escape gets nerfed so should cloak. I don't want to see any ability get nerfed! Matter of fact I think temps need a buff to be on par. But if there is a nerf it needs to be to both Both Escape and Cloak If bolt escape is nerfed as suggested, please just getting rid of it or change it to a gap closer, seeing how stamina sorc suck and Magicka sorc do not have a gap closer. Again, bot escape and Cloak should suffer the same fate. I believe every class should be OP in its own unique way. Stop with the nerfs!

chevalierknight

You're a bad player no cloak is not on par use aoe mage light potion to stop cloak blot cant be stoped with out closing the gap or speed so. You're bad

Sharee

Cloak can be negated by piercing mark or magelight, among other things.

There is no skill that would prevent bolting for 30 seconds like mark does to cloak, or skill that would prevent anyone from bolting when you are within 12 meters of them like magelight does to cloak.

Cloak can be powerful when the people you are using it against have no clue how to counter it - but then that is true for most abilities.

kkampaseb17_ESO

chevalierknight wrote: »

You're a bad player no cloak is not on par use aoe mage light potion to stop cloak blot cant be stoped with out closing the gap or speed so. You're bad

We can see about that if they go and nerf see invis potions to not see Cloak as they said at one point......

Wreuntzylla

I can't seem to fear 20 people?

Vis

Eejit1331 wrote: »

If Bolt Escape gets nerfed so should cloak!

We can agree the nerf to bolt escape is ill conceived and poorly designed. But even if it does go through, I would not wish to subjugate my NB brothers to the same fate.

Two wrongs don't make a right (and all that jazz).

JDar

No. Cloak is fine. The game is not hide and seek. If it were then cloak would be op. The game is hurt people. Cloak does zero damage. Leave it alone.

olsborg

the BE nerf is too strict. 33% stacking would be better. if they put such a heavy cost increase that stacks per use, why even have the skill...just delete it and give sorcs something else.

JDar

olsborg wrote: »

the BE nerf is too strict. 33% stacking would be better. if they put such a heavy cost increase that stacks per use, why even have the skill...just delete it and give sorcs something else.

That is eminently insightful. Instead of tweaking and complicating the way the spell works to adjust balance they should scrap it and rethink what they were trying to do in the first place. Sigh.

Erock25

These people saying Cloak has counter but Bolt doesn't .... Bolt counters are charges and bow + roll dodge + speed buff. Those are just as much counters to Bolt as what people offer as the counters to Cloak IF detect pots are in fact getting changed (still haven't seen a dev comment on that but everyone seems to think it is definitely happening). Cloak absolutely should get the stacking cost increase, and even then I am sure that one month or so after the major update, the whines on the forum about how overpowered Cloak is are going to be defeaning and ZOS will have to act. NB are setting themselves up for a long fall by not self advocating for some restrictions to Cloak.

chevalierknight

Erock25 wrote: »

These people saying Cloak has counter but Bolt doesn't .... Bolt counters are charges and bow + roll dodge + speed buff. Those are just as much counters to Bolt as what people offer as the counters to Cloak IF detect pots are in fact getting changed (still haven't seen a dev comment on that but everyone seems to think it is definitely happening). Cloak absolutely should get the stacking cost increase, and even then I am sure that one month or so after the major update, the whines on the forum about how overpowered Cloak is are going to be defeaning and ZOS will have to act. NB are setting themselves up for a long fall by not self advocating for some restrictions to Cloak.

No dev will sit there going lol these noob cant usd aoe or refuse to counter mmmmm tears

Eejit1331

chevalierknight wrote: »

You're a bad player no cloak is not on par use aoe mage light potion to stop cloak blot cant be stoped with out closing the gap or speed so. You're bad

Say what you wish about me but look at the OP videos of this thread. I'm sure you know who he is.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190098/bolt-escape-dodge-blocking-shields-nerf#latest

Watch and see how he manipulates his enemies using his NB versus how he does with his Sorc. There is a world of difference. So if your only defense is pointing a finger at me, you have three pointing back at you.

Neither BOL or Cloak have the ability to kill another play. These abilities are abused by bad players, so good players ha e to pay the price?? My point is these may very different abilities but they both have the ability to be abused equally and that they need to be treated the same.

I get it... As a NB sorc are the biggest pain, but on the flip side as a sorc NB are very frustrating as well. This is a knee jerk reaction nerf from the devs and many NB are cheering as if they just won a prize when in reality they show how the devs decisions about powers can be manipulated by the community complaints.

How about this... you make a video of how OP sorc is and I'll make a video of how OP NB are and we can let our play speak for themselves.

Cheers!

Eejit1331

Vis wrote: »

Eejit1331 wrote: »

If Bolt Escape gets nerfed so should cloak!

We can agree the nerf to bolt escape is ill conceived and poorly designed. But even if it does go through, I would not wish to subjugate my NB brothers to the same fate.

Two wrongs don't make a right (and all that jazz).

You sir, are correct! Two wrongs do not make a right and the lesser of two evils is still evil. The lies that go on about how BE is God mode and Cloak is this poor ability that doesn't work Needs to stop. The nerfs need to stop And just buff the other powers instead. Unfortunately people do not listen to this logic but the will begin to tell the truth when they defend what they fear they may lose. Losing and eye and losing a tooth is a song and dance meant to creat empathy instead of sympathy. Apologies in advance for the collateral damage.

OdinForge

Cloak and bolt truly are on two different levels, only time will tell how strong it becomes for magicka spec NB in the next patch. As a stamina NB since launch, cloak has never left me feeling OP. In fact it's felt more like a wasted slot and wasted magicka than a useful skill, i used to just map efficient purge and not even bother with cloak. With good magicka regen stats on a stamina build, it's more user friendly now but not nearly on the same level as bolt escape.

In duels i don't even bother with cloak, put on a more useful skill that will help me win.

Eejit1331

OdinForge wrote: »

Cloak and bolt truly are on two different levels, only time will tell how strong it becomes for magicka spec NB in the next patch. As a stamina NB since launch, cloak has never left me feeling OP. In fact it's felt more like a wasted slot and wasted magicka than a useful skill, i used to just map efficient purge and not even bother with cloak. With good magicka regen stats on a stamina build, it's more user friendly now but not nearly on the same level as bolt escape.

In duels i don't even bother with cloak, put on a more useful skill that will help me win.

I feel as if you are comparing cloak on a stamina build versus BOL on a magicka sorc build. BOL on a sorc stamina build is not even in the same ballpark as cloak on a stamina NB loadout. Just an example from another class, I would never use a templars heal on a stamina loadout as it is not effective and there are better option. I can't even teak a stamina sorc loadout to use BOL the way a NB cam tweak their stamina loadout to fit in cloak. It's just an unfair comparison.

timidobserver

I agree with this thread. No escape mechanic should be endlessly spammable.

OdinForge

Eejit1331 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Cloak and bolt truly are on two different levels, only time will tell how strong it becomes for magicka spec NB in the next patch. As a stamina NB since launch, cloak has never left me feeling OP. In fact it's felt more like a wasted slot and wasted magicka than a useful skill, i used to just map efficient purge and not even bother with cloak. With good magicka regen stats on a stamina build, it's more user friendly now but not nearly on the same level as bolt escape.

In duels i don't even bother with cloak, put on a more useful skill that will help me win.

I feel as if you are comparing cloak on a stamina build versus BOL on a magicka sorc build. BOL on a sorc stamina build is not even in the same ballpark as cloak on a stamina NB loadout. Just an example from another class, I would never use a templars heal on a stamina loadout as it is not effective and there are better option. I can't even teak a stamina sorc loadout to use BOL the way a NB cam tweak their stamina loadout to fit in cloak. It's just an unfair comparison.

That wasn't close to my point, but i do agree that BE for stamina Sorc is not on the same level as Cloak for stamina NB. Although i don't get why people rolled Sorcerer if they want to run a stamina spec. It seems as if stamina builds were an after thought in this game from the start, especially for the one "mage" class.

NB is in a pretty okay spot for stamina builds, we have maybe the best class for stamina based customization. Most stamina builds you see (nightblade included) use 2H/Bow, 2H for the single target damage and bow for the utility. For non NB classes (especially Sorc) this is the only viable loadout. That's largely in part due to the speed stacking you can get from hasty retreat and any major expedition skill (including boundless storms). This speed alone is enough of an escape, cloak is a nice buffer. At least Sorc can use one or two BE in any direction, DK has to make do with only mist form.

My original point stands though, cloak never leaves me feeling "OP" at least on a stamina spec. I don't play magicka NB, i would only hope that cloak for stamina doesn't suffer because ZOS can't balance it on magicka. If ZOS really cared about stamina Sorc, maybe they'd make some changes for it in the future.

tist

Sharee wrote: »

Cloak can be negated by piercing mark or magelight, among other things.

There is no skill that would prevent bolting for 30 seconds like mark does to cloak, or skill that would prevent anyone from bolting when you are within 12 meters of them like magelight does to cloak.

Cloak can be powerful when the people you are using it against have no clue how to counter it - but then that is true for most abilities.

But being non marked is a guaranteed escape. I know, I play magicka nb and sorc. Spamming bolt already puts you oom, the Nerf will make it unusable.

Kupoking

Agreed with OP. Cloak will become the new spammable escape as bolt escape was.

Add to that mist form too. I predict a lot of vamps on the field also in 1.7. Doing bolt escape then mist until magika cost increase wears off. Same with stam build users with dodge.

Anyways. Getting my NB rdy and my stamplar vampire if they dont make those abilities on par.

lolo_01b16_ESO

When I'm on my nb I mostly use claok to defend against meteors, siege and other dots. On my other characters I use hardened ward, purifing ritual + breath of life, igneous shield + dragon blood to defend against this.
Following your logic, all those skills would need to have increased costs if you increase costs of cloak. Are you sure that you want this to happen?

In my opinion no skill should have increased costs if used multiple times, if zenimax insists on having it on one skill, we should show them why this is a bad idea and not encourage them to cripple more skills.

Zsymon

Cloak is already countered by Magelight, AoE damage, Piercing Mark and detection potions.. how many more counters do you want? Are we going to whine about everything until every effective skill gets nerfed into the ground and not a single skill is really worth casting anymore? Not to mention that Cloak constantly breaks for no reason in combat, right after casting it, even if you're not being attacked, which won't be fixed with the new update.

Instead of nerfing Bolt Escape into the ground, they should have simply given it a counter, such as roots, same with dodge roll, they could have just given dodge some more counters instead of completely destroying it.

With block they could have done the same, make it impossible to block under certain circumstances, anything better than completely voiding these abilities and mechanics.

Erock25

Zsymon wrote: »

Cloak is already countered by Magelight, AoE damage, Piercing Mark and detection potions.. how many more counters do you want?

Instead of nerfing Bolt Escape into the ground, they should have simply given it a counter, such as roots, same with dodge roll, they could have just given dodge some more counters instead of completely destroying it.

With block they could have done the same, make it impossible to block under certain circumstances, anything better than completely voiding these abilities and mechanics.

As I said, Bolt Escape already has counters in charges and other ways of moving just as fast as Bolt Escape.

In my opinion, Radiant Magelight has too small of an area to warrant two or even one slot. AOE that I can reasonably use on my Sorc are Impulse, Liquid Lightning, and Boundless Storm... all of which have way too small radius to catch a competent bow using roll dodging cloaking NB. Caltrops and Steel Tornado may work, but I wouldn't know. Piercing Mark is only for one class and detection potions will no longer reveal cloaked enemies.

Eejit1331

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Agreed with OP. Cloak will become the new spammable escape as bolt escape was.

Add to that mist form too. I predict a lot of vamps on the field also in 1.7. Doing bolt escape then mist until magika cost increase wears off. Same with stam build users with dodge.

Anyways. Getting my NB rdy and my stamplar vampire if they dont make those abilities on par.

There is no magica regen for mist, it's not very fast and you can still see it. I don't see mist. being very OP. it could be but it not as OP as BOL or Cloak.

Eejit1331

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

When I'm on my nb I mostly use claok to defend against meteors, siege and other dots. On my other characters I use hardened ward, purifing ritual + breath of life, igneous shield + dragon blood to defend against this.
Following your logic, all those skills would need to have increased costs if you increase costs of cloak. Are you sure that you want this to happen?

In my opinion no skill should have increased costs if used multiple times, if zenimax insists on having it on one skill, we should show them why this is a bad idea and not encourage them to cripple more skills.

You are correct. No ability should have this kind of nerf. You hit the nail on the head. Thank you!

Eejit1331

Zsymon wrote: »

Cloak is already countered by Magelight, AoE damage, Piercing Mark and detection potions.. how many more counters do you want? Are we going to whine about everything until every effective skill gets nerfed into the ground and not a single skill is really worth casting anymore? Not to mention that Cloak constantly breaks for no reason in combat, right after casting it, even if you're not being attacked, which won't be fixed with the new update.

Instead of nerfing Bolt Escape into the ground, they should have simply given it a counter, such as roots, same with dodge roll, they could have just given dodge some more counters instead of completely destroying it.

With block they could have done the same, make it impossible to block under certain circumstances, anything better than completely voiding these abilities and mechanics.

Agreed! Make it so there are roots.

Jakeol

Until cloak starts stunning surrounding players when the NB casts it and moves through people cloak is no where near streak. Don't even make this comparison when 1 escape also stuns surrounding players, and puts distance between you and the other player. Players are saying that "oh just charge the sorc". That will work until they streak again and by the time you break free and begin to cast another charge the sorc is aleady out of range (unless they streaked at a weird angle that wasn't exactly 180 degrees away from you).

Sorcs will have to spend resources to escape now, just like any other class. A sorc might *gasp* have to spend some stam to roll dodge/sprint while their streak/BE cost increase resets, simillar to when a NB has to sprint/roll dodge when they're being chased by someone using aoe abilities, detect pots, magelight, or peircing mark.



P.S. If the reset period is going to stay only 4 seconds, you ran roll dodge/sprint/shield spam, etc for that to happen and begin spamming again. Sorcs will still be the most mobile class. It's not doomsday for sorcs like every sorc acting it is.

Tankqull

Zsymon wrote: »

Cloak is already countered by Magelight, AoE damage, Piercing Mark and detection potions.. how many more counters do you want? Are we going to whine about everything until every effective skill gets nerfed into the ground and not a single skill is really worth casting anymore? Not to mention that Cloak constantly breaks for no reason in combat, right after casting it, even if you're not being attacked, which won't be fixed with the new update.

Instead of nerfing Bolt Escape into the ground, they should have simply given it a counter, such as roots, same with dodge roll, they could have just given dodge some more counters instead of completely destroying it.

With block they could have done the same, make it impossible to block under certain circumstances, anything better than completely voiding these abilities and mechanics.

potions the only viable option are gone soon.
piercing mark is restricted to one class - not helpfull if you are one of the other classes.
aoe dmg is quite unpopular in non zerg/blob skillsets due to crap dmg, crap area of effect (and a few of the more effective AoE do not harm cloak for what ever reason [bombard e.g.])
magelight is laughable thx to its minimalistic area of effect and latencys i can attack someone "protected" by magelight with wrecking blow from stealth without beein recognized... (reveling flare is in the same pity situation, i´ve never been cought by some one using it)

TheElementalPlatypus

We as sorcs need to rise and let zos change it to 33% or make snares make the distance shorter, as it is now, I have to BE 4-6 times to get out of range of a chasing sniper, let alone how quickly a NB catches me, or a ambush/crit rush spammer, even invasion, any gap closer really. Its extremely easy to chase and took me almost 8 every time to effectively give me some distance and second to think, BUT NO NERF TO USELESSNESS PLEASE. Sure it will be useful still but bolt wasnt the problem, it was idiots who complained about it. So to all sorcs out there, we can thank ZOS for being incompetent enough to listen to these idiots.

Eejit1331

Jakeol wrote: »

Until cloak starts stunning surrounding players when the NB casts it and moves through people cloak is no where near streak. Don't even make this comparison when 1 escape also stuns surrounding players, and puts distance between you and the other player. Players are saying that "oh just charge the sorc". That will work until they streak again and by the time you break free and begin to cast another charge the sorc is aleady out of range (unless they streaked at a weird angle that wasn't exactly 180 degrees away from you).

Sorcs will have to spend resources to escape now, just like any other class. A sorc might *gasp* have to spend some stam to roll dodge/sprint while their streak/BE cost increase resets, simillar to when a NB has to sprint/roll dodge when they're being chased by someone using aoe abilities, detect pots, magelight, or peircing mark.



P.S. If the reset period is going to stay only 4 seconds, you ran roll dodge/sprint/shield spam, etc for that to happen and begin spamming again. Sorcs will still be the most mobile class. It's not doomsday for sorcs like every sorc acting it is.

One stun for 1.5 seconds, that's almost free immunity. Please, take the stun Away. Plus, your a freaking stamina nightblade and you can still cloak away! if you weren't, you would know that a sorc can't BOL roll a couple times and BOL again because we are out of stamina and magicka, but yet, you, a stamina NB, has enough resources to either cloak away and/or roll away. I've seen massacre at the bridge by what's his face.

If we get nerfed, so will you!

Pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered.

You my friend are a hog. see you when cloak gets nerfed and while we are at it, let's start another fear OP nerf thread!

Zsymon

Aren't we all having so much fun getting each other's favorite skills nerfed into the ground, if that's the only thing this forum does, give voice to a nerf-humping minority, then please remove it, the game will be far better off that way.

There won't be much of a game left this way, if every single good and fun skill gets nerfed into uselessness, people are going to quit by the droves. If every class has an "overpowered skill", then the game is balanced, isn't it.. yet people keep crying nerf because their huge egos cry murder everytime someone beats them, survives them or escapes from them. If they don't get an easy win it surely must be because of a game imbalance.

ToRelax

Zsymon wrote: »

Aren't we all having so much fun getting each other's favorite skills nerfed into the ground, if that's the only thing this forum does, give voice to a nerf-humping minority, then please remove it, the game will be far better off that way.

There won't be much of a game left this way, if every single good and fun skill gets nerfed into uselessness, people are going to quit by the droves. If every class has an "overpowered skill", then the game is balanced, isn't it.. yet people keep crying nerf because their huge egos cry murder everytime someone beats them, survives them or escapes from them. If they don't get an easy win it surely must be because of a game imbalance.

Without some understanding of the game, ZOS can neither distinguish reasonable posters from the rest, nor can they achieve any game balance without the players.
Even though most of the posters here make the problems even worse most likely, they are not responsible for ZOS' incompetence.