Why Fortified Nirncrux isn't broken

Domander

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Too bad ZOS have said it is broken...

Actually, they have not. They have said they intend to tweak it.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

but it is also easier to stack spell pen. between nirn, light armor passive, and therealso being a mundus stone for it makes spell pen easier to stack whereas it is harder to stack armor pen.

No, that's not really the case. Maces in dual wield provide 10% penetration each, or a two-handed mace provides 20% penetration. Sharpened tops at 14% penetration whereas Nirnhoned tops at 18%. From weapons alone with sharpened maces, you'll get 34% armor penetration whereas a magicka build will get 18%, while light armor provides a ~4800 spell resistance penetration (~10-14% against many enemies) but medium armor additionally gets 12% weapon damage rating. So generally, you'll land at around 34% armor penetration factoring in just the armor passives and weapon passives/traits, versus around 30% spell penetration, while the physical builds will also gain 12% weapon damage rating. Destruction staff users gain an extra 10% ignore but it's only for destruction skills, whereas the mace passives apply to everything including class skills, etc.

Spell resistance is also easier by far to get to the 35,000-40,000+ range with little sacrifice made in medium/heavy armor builds (and around 25,000 in magicka builds based on light armor 5/1/1 light/medium/heavy armor combinations), while for physical resistance it is extremely difficult to get that above 25,000-27,000 in builds fully decked out for it in heavy armor (impractical for a magicka build). Major Armor debuffs are on a variety of skills commonly used by physical builds, while the only magicka ability that does a major Spell Resistance debuff other than the nightblade's reaper's mark (which actually does armor, too) class skill, is the Destruction Staff's "Elemental Drain". Otherwise, you're out of luck. Meanwhile a variety of class and weapon skills apply major armor debuffs while dealing large amounts of damage.

Add in the huge disparity in practically reachable weapon damage and spell damage amounts, and that they scale very similarly on a like-ability to like-ability basis for your skills, and physical is far ahead at this point in time. That is why you see the majority of players running around with physical builds at this point in time .

I do agree with your analysis of the maces. I did forget about that. That said, you have to use maces whereas nirn can be applied to any weapon. Moreover, i do not think it is fair to equate weapon damage gained by medium to ignoring armor pen. whereas, light goes straight to spell pen. although i do concede the maces argument. In fact i will probably run dual maces tonight when i get on

Sharpened can be applied to any weapon also..

And medium not only gains weapon damage but also cheaper defense.

Domander

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Anyone who thinks it's not broken is deluded.

Can you get 50k physical resistance? no?

Yes magicka damage can get more penetration, but stamina gets more weapon damage.

light armor = spell pen
medium armor = more weapon damage

mundus stones

apprentice = penetration
warrior = more damage

This is all assuming you don't want to use different armor or a different mundus stone.

Nirnhoned weapon? this is what nirnhoned armor should be balanced against.

Except that physical resistance is largely irrelevant to a high magicka (e.g., 30-40k) shield stacker. The shield sees the full damage minus crit and the shield stacker sees the full overflow damage minus crit.

Granted, this is more relevant to sorcs than it is to DK's or Templars, and even less relevant to NBs.

You also don't really need 50k physical resistance due to the lower physical penetration available and the math used to apply the physical penetration (e.g., maces).

Not everyone stacks shields.

And... sharpened, maces (20%), same debuff as spells...how much more penetration is needed with weapon damage buffs.

You may not need 50k physical resist to hit the cap, but do you think it's as easy or even possible to hit the cap compared to nirn armor spell resist?

Nirnhoned is completely unbalanced when someone is not talking about fighting a shield stacking sorc with max spell pen. Even then, it's still too much.

Joy_Division

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

People actually think stacking nirn over 2 pieces has diminishing returns... ?
I mean... I can understand why someone would think that way if he would stack flat resistance. But not percentages stacking on themselves. That's some fine maths right there .

They probably confuse the fact that (at some point) you reach the spell resist hardcap with diminishing return, when it's actually pretty much the opposite of that.

Yawn. Last reset in Azura's, I played for only around 12 nights out of the 30 days and still was rank 40. Guess what? I use a nirnhoned staff for the spell pen, and one lonely piece of nirnhoned armor. I could add more, but I'd gimp my offense to do so, and magic attacks aren't as hard to deal with as physical ones which are far more prevalent in the first place, so dumping something like Valkyn Skoria so I could use nirn more would be laughably silly. I just plain don't struggle to survive against casters with my paltry 25k resist, and I hit people stacking 50 to 60k like a truck still between my spell pen on gear, passives, Mundus stone, and a bit extra from champ. Like they say on tech forums, it isn't the game or computer... it's a PEBKAC error.

Be careful not to strain your arm patting yourself on the back.

My Magicka DK: gold nirn staff + 5 pieces light armor + apprentice mundas = hitting nirn stackers for a fraction tooltip damage on my force pulse. nirn sucks and it sucks hard.

Tooltips are not an accurate way to determine the damage you "should" be dealing, as they don't take into account the majority of other damage modifiers in the game. Do what I did which was to log in two characters and actually test, or ask a friend to help you do it that you can give nirnhoned gear to on live or PTS. I still hit for a "fraction", but it is a large one , and not that much smaller than the "fraction" I hit someone for who isn't wearing excessive spell resistance. You give up a lot of gear choices if you stack your spell resistance to the level it actually can halve a well built enemy's damage output. Like I've said before in other threads, we need to slow down time to kill, not speed it up by nerfing nirnhoned in a vacuum. Frankly, it's one of the things in this game that is close to perfect on balance, and could possibly stand a reduction of its percentage by a small amount (18 to 20% at legendary instead of 24% on an armor item as it is now). In tandem with that, as I've said many times over the past few months, balancing out nirnhoned with an equivalent physical resistance trait available such as retuning Reinforced to work in the same way and percentages, would go a long way towards fixing the incredibly bursty gameplay that has come to become a large amount of the encounters you fight in now in Cyrodiil. Some people are saying that the TTK is too slow, but I'd actually posit that for magicka users, it's just right.

Now we need to balance it for physical builds to match, along with (also mentioned many times before) bringing more parity to the amounts of weapon damage you can stack in feasible/good gear combinations versus how much you can stack spell damage in a similar fashion. The best usable builds in PVE and PVP for spell damage, excluding using dual wield weapons which sacrifices your magicka-based medium-weave attack and is normally a substantial part of your damage (it accounts for around 15-20% of my damage output for example on my Dragon Knight) while cutting yourself off from weapon-based magicka skills, is around the 2900-3100 range. In a good physical-based build, it is very practical to carry around 3500+ weapon damage and in high-damage builds along the lines of the magicka comparison, over 4,100-4,300. You can also opt to drop a few hundred or so of that weapon damage and slot in sets like Hawk Eye or Morag Tong which fit well in a variety of builds, for 5% reduced bow skill cost and increased damage, or 15% extra (bow skill essentially) damage with poisons (which the bow skills morph into). The only comparable item set for magicka builds is the Sun set, which is a 5% bonus to fire damage, and there is no comparable set like Ravaging for physical builds. This is by and large more of the same that I've already posted, but I've noticed a handful of others are beginning to comment along the same lines such as Xsorus more recently.

"You hit [shameless EP Nirn stacker] for 468 with force pulse." That's hit. Not blocked. Not absorbed. Hit.

It's not that more people are beginning to comment like Xsorus, it that the people sick of the nirn garbage like Pixiesticks have left the game and the forums until ZoS fixes this debacle.

Wreuntzylla

Domander wrote: »

Not everyone stacks shields.

And... sharpened, maces (20%), same debuff as spells...how much more penetration is needed with weapon damage buffs.

You may not need 50k physical resist to hit the cap, but do you think it's as easy or even possible to hit the cap compared to nirn armor spell resist?

Nirnhoned is completely unbalanced when someone is not talking about fighting a shield stacking sorc with max spell pen. Even then, it's still too much.

Everyone is over hyping maces. 2H mace > 2H sword for people with more armor than 7 pieces of medium provides. If you use sharpened, the break point is even higher. It's in the maths.

Further, because castable shields do not mitigate damage, sword is always better on high magicka, shielding builds. So, in practice, maces are better on people wearing some amount of heavy armor and who don't rely on castable shields.

With respect to capping Armor, the answer is: YES. You can overcap! You can hit the cap BEFORE applying defending trait. I think you can get to around 35000-36000. Crafted armor alone will give you 7500 from set bonuses. Major resolve gives you 5120. Base at VR14 is 643. Jewelry enchants give you around 3300. Your pretty close to cap right there using heavy with reinforced but without defending trait. Defending trait gives you 12% for 2H and 6% for 1h, although because of armor from shield, 1h still edges out 2H slightly. And there are other sources of armor (minor resolve, etc.).

With respect to nirnhoned being imbalanced, shield stacking sorcs aside, I generally agree, except for some NB magicka builds. Us sorcs are standing in the way of other magicka builds being competitive.

I don't agree that it's still too much for shield stacking sorcs. I play sorc and NB mostly, some DK, only class I don't have at vr14 is templar (V12). The only time I think NB or DK is better is when I get popped out of stealth while riding my horse...

Currently, the toughest build I run into on any class is templar using radiant ward + clouding mist + focused charge + steel tornado + biting jabs (jabbing while clouding). Second toughest is lightning form sorcs stacking detonation + V Curse + mages fury + daedric mines + overload or crushing shock spam. Some use liquid lightning but it takes much more skill to pull off.

Someone was saying it is impractical to use weakness to elements for resist debuff. Maybe, but every other NB is laying down mark target....

Wreuntzylla

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

People actually think stacking nirn over 2 pieces has diminishing returns... ?
I mean... I can understand why someone would think that way if he would stack flat resistance. But not percentages stacking on themselves. That's some fine maths right there .

They probably confuse the fact that (at some point) you reach the spell resist hardcap with diminishing return, when it's actually pretty much the opposite of that.

Yawn. Last reset in Azura's, I played for only around 12 nights out of the 30 days and still was rank 40. Guess what? I use a nirnhoned staff for the spell pen, and one lonely piece of nirnhoned armor. I could add more, but I'd gimp my offense to do so, and magic attacks aren't as hard to deal with as physical ones which are far more prevalent in the first place, so dumping something like Valkyn Skoria so I could use nirn more would be laughably silly. I just plain don't struggle to survive against casters with my paltry 25k resist, and I hit people stacking 50 to 60k like a truck still between my spell pen on gear, passives, Mundus stone, and a bit extra from champ. Like they say on tech forums, it isn't the game or computer... it's a PEBKAC error.

Be careful not to strain your arm patting yourself on the back.

My Magicka DK: gold nirn staff + 5 pieces light armor + apprentice mundas = hitting nirn stackers for a fraction tooltip damage on my force pulse. nirn sucks and it sucks hard.

Tooltips are not an accurate way to determine the damage you "should" be dealing, as they don't take into account the majority of other damage modifiers in the game. Do what I did which was to log in two characters and actually test, or ask a friend to help you do it that you can give nirnhoned gear to on live or PTS. I still hit for a "fraction", but it is a large one , and not that much smaller than the "fraction" I hit someone for who isn't wearing excessive spell resistance. You give up a lot of gear choices if you stack your spell resistance to the level it actually can halve a well built enemy's damage output. Like I've said before in other threads, we need to slow down time to kill, not speed it up by nerfing nirnhoned in a vacuum. Frankly, it's one of the things in this game that is close to perfect on balance, and could possibly stand a reduction of its percentage by a small amount (18 to 20% at legendary instead of 24% on an armor item as it is now). In tandem with that, as I've said many times over the past few months, balancing out nirnhoned with an equivalent physical resistance trait available such as retuning Reinforced to work in the same way and percentages, would go a long way towards fixing the incredibly bursty gameplay that has come to become a large amount of the encounters you fight in now in Cyrodiil. Some people are saying that the TTK is too slow, but I'd actually posit that for magicka users, it's just right.

Now we need to balance it for physical builds to match, along with (also mentioned many times before) bringing more parity to the amounts of weapon damage you can stack in feasible/good gear combinations versus how much you can stack spell damage in a similar fashion. The best usable builds in PVE and PVP for spell damage, excluding using dual wield weapons which sacrifices your magicka-based medium-weave attack and is normally a substantial part of your damage (it accounts for around 15-20% of my damage output for example on my Dragon Knight) while cutting yourself off from weapon-based magicka skills, is around the 2900-3100 range. In a good physical-based build, it is very practical to carry around 3500+ weapon damage and in high-damage builds along the lines of the magicka comparison, over 4,100-4,300. You can also opt to drop a few hundred or so of that weapon damage and slot in sets like Hawk Eye or Morag Tong which fit well in a variety of builds, for 5% reduced bow skill cost and increased damage, or 15% extra (bow skill essentially) damage with poisons (which the bow skills morph into). The only comparable item set for magicka builds is the Sun set, which is a 5% bonus to fire damage, and there is no comparable set like Ravaging for physical builds. This is by and large more of the same that I've already posted, but I've noticed a handful of others are beginning to comment along the same lines such as Xsorus more recently.

"You hit [shameless EP Nirn stacker] for 468 with force pulse." That's hit. Not blocked. Not absorbed. Hit.

It's not that more people are beginning to comment like Xsorus, it that the people sick of the nirn garbage like Pixiesticks have left the game and the forums until ZoS fixes this debacle.

Pixie sticks ran 40k magicka and 3k spell power. How much spell penetration do you think pixie was stacking? And you sure as poop aren't attacking a high damage output toon if that's the damage you are doing...

ToRelax

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

People actually think stacking nirn over 2 pieces has diminishing returns... ?
I mean... I can understand why someone would think that way if he would stack flat resistance. But not percentages stacking on themselves. That's some fine maths right there .

They probably confuse the fact that (at some point) you reach the spell resist hardcap with diminishing return, when it's actually pretty much the opposite of that.

Yawn. Last reset in Azura's, I played for only around 12 nights out of the 30 days and still was rank 40. Guess what? I use a nirnhoned staff for the spell pen, and one lonely piece of nirnhoned armor. I could add more, but I'd gimp my offense to do so, and magic attacks aren't as hard to deal with as physical ones which are far more prevalent in the first place, so dumping something like Valkyn Skoria so I could use nirn more would be laughably silly. I just plain don't struggle to survive against casters with my paltry 25k resist, and I hit people stacking 50 to 60k like a truck still between my spell pen on gear, passives, Mundus stone, and a bit extra from champ. Like they say on tech forums, it isn't the game or computer... it's a PEBKAC error.

Be careful not to strain your arm patting yourself on the back.

My Magicka DK: gold nirn staff + 5 pieces light armor + apprentice mundas = hitting nirn stackers for a fraction tooltip damage on my force pulse. nirn sucks and it sucks hard.

Tooltips are not an accurate way to determine the damage you "should" be dealing, as they don't take into account the majority of other damage modifiers in the game. Do what I did which was to log in two characters and actually test, or ask a friend to help you do it that you can give nirnhoned gear to on live or PTS. I still hit for a "fraction", but it is a large one , and not that much smaller than the "fraction" I hit someone for who isn't wearing excessive spell resistance. You give up a lot of gear choices if you stack your spell resistance to the level it actually can halve a well built enemy's damage output. Like I've said before in other threads, we need to slow down time to kill, not speed it up by nerfing nirnhoned in a vacuum. Frankly, it's one of the things in this game that is close to perfect on balance, and could possibly stand a reduction of its percentage by a small amount (18 to 20% at legendary instead of 24% on an armor item as it is now). In tandem with that, as I've said many times over the past few months, balancing out nirnhoned with an equivalent physical resistance trait available such as retuning Reinforced to work in the same way and percentages, would go a long way towards fixing the incredibly bursty gameplay that has come to become a large amount of the encounters you fight in now in Cyrodiil. Some people are saying that the TTK is too slow, but I'd actually posit that for magicka users, it's just right.

Now we need to balance it for physical builds to match, along with (also mentioned many times before) bringing more parity to the amounts of weapon damage you can stack in feasible/good gear combinations versus how much you can stack spell damage in a similar fashion. The best usable builds in PVE and PVP for spell damage, excluding using dual wield weapons which sacrifices your magicka-based medium-weave attack and is normally a substantial part of your damage (it accounts for around 15-20% of my damage output for example on my Dragon Knight) while cutting yourself off from weapon-based magicka skills, is around the 2900-3100 range. In a good physical-based build, it is very practical to carry around 3500+ weapon damage and in high-damage builds along the lines of the magicka comparison, over 4,100-4,300. You can also opt to drop a few hundred or so of that weapon damage and slot in sets like Hawk Eye or Morag Tong which fit well in a variety of builds, for 5% reduced bow skill cost and increased damage, or 15% extra (bow skill essentially) damage with poisons (which the bow skills morph into). The only comparable item set for magicka builds is the Sun set, which is a 5% bonus to fire damage, and there is no comparable set like Ravaging for physical builds. This is by and large more of the same that I've already posted, but I've noticed a handful of others are beginning to comment along the same lines such as Xsorus more recently.

"You hit [shameless EP Nirn stacker] for 468 with force pulse." That's hit. Not blocked. Not absorbed. Hit.

It's not that more people are beginning to comment like Xsorus, it that the people sick of the nirn garbage like Pixiesticks have left the game and the forums until ZoS fixes this debacle.

Pixie sticks ran 40k magicka and 3k spell power. How much spell penetration do you think pixie was stacking? And you sure as poop aren't attacking a high damage output toon if that's the damage you are doing...

Dual nirnhoned, 5 light, apprentice.
Don't put many CP in it because it's nowhere as efficient as magic/elemental damage, unless you have can cap those.
So I'd say, max penetration you can get without destro?

Wreuntzylla

ToRelax wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

People actually think stacking nirn over 2 pieces has diminishing returns... ?
I mean... I can understand why someone would think that way if he would stack flat resistance. But not percentages stacking on themselves. That's some fine maths right there .

They probably confuse the fact that (at some point) you reach the spell resist hardcap with diminishing return, when it's actually pretty much the opposite of that.

Yawn. Last reset in Azura's, I played for only around 12 nights out of the 30 days and still was rank 40. Guess what? I use a nirnhoned staff for the spell pen, and one lonely piece of nirnhoned armor. I could add more, but I'd gimp my offense to do so, and magic attacks aren't as hard to deal with as physical ones which are far more prevalent in the first place, so dumping something like Valkyn Skoria so I could use nirn more would be laughably silly. I just plain don't struggle to survive against casters with my paltry 25k resist, and I hit people stacking 50 to 60k like a truck still between my spell pen on gear, passives, Mundus stone, and a bit extra from champ. Like they say on tech forums, it isn't the game or computer... it's a PEBKAC error.

Be careful not to strain your arm patting yourself on the back.

My Magicka DK: gold nirn staff + 5 pieces light armor + apprentice mundas = hitting nirn stackers for a fraction tooltip damage on my force pulse. nirn sucks and it sucks hard.

Tooltips are not an accurate way to determine the damage you "should" be dealing, as they don't take into account the majority of other damage modifiers in the game. Do what I did which was to log in two characters and actually test, or ask a friend to help you do it that you can give nirnhoned gear to on live or PTS. I still hit for a "fraction", but it is a large one , and not that much smaller than the "fraction" I hit someone for who isn't wearing excessive spell resistance. You give up a lot of gear choices if you stack your spell resistance to the level it actually can halve a well built enemy's damage output. Like I've said before in other threads, we need to slow down time to kill, not speed it up by nerfing nirnhoned in a vacuum. Frankly, it's one of the things in this game that is close to perfect on balance, and could possibly stand a reduction of its percentage by a small amount (18 to 20% at legendary instead of 24% on an armor item as it is now). In tandem with that, as I've said many times over the past few months, balancing out nirnhoned with an equivalent physical resistance trait available such as retuning Reinforced to work in the same way and percentages, would go a long way towards fixing the incredibly bursty gameplay that has come to become a large amount of the encounters you fight in now in Cyrodiil. Some people are saying that the TTK is too slow, but I'd actually posit that for magicka users, it's just right.

Now we need to balance it for physical builds to match, along with (also mentioned many times before) bringing more parity to the amounts of weapon damage you can stack in feasible/good gear combinations versus how much you can stack spell damage in a similar fashion. The best usable builds in PVE and PVP for spell damage, excluding using dual wield weapons which sacrifices your magicka-based medium-weave attack and is normally a substantial part of your damage (it accounts for around 15-20% of my damage output for example on my Dragon Knight) while cutting yourself off from weapon-based magicka skills, is around the 2900-3100 range. In a good physical-based build, it is very practical to carry around 3500+ weapon damage and in high-damage builds along the lines of the magicka comparison, over 4,100-4,300. You can also opt to drop a few hundred or so of that weapon damage and slot in sets like Hawk Eye or Morag Tong which fit well in a variety of builds, for 5% reduced bow skill cost and increased damage, or 15% extra (bow skill essentially) damage with poisons (which the bow skills morph into). The only comparable item set for magicka builds is the Sun set, which is a 5% bonus to fire damage, and there is no comparable set like Ravaging for physical builds. This is by and large more of the same that I've already posted, but I've noticed a handful of others are beginning to comment along the same lines such as Xsorus more recently.

"You hit [shameless EP Nirn stacker] for 468 with force pulse." That's hit. Not blocked. Not absorbed. Hit.

It's not that more people are beginning to comment like Xsorus, it that the people sick of the nirn garbage like Pixiesticks have left the game and the forums until ZoS fixes this debacle.

Pixie sticks ran 40k magicka and 3k spell power. How much spell penetration do you think pixie was stacking? And you sure as poop aren't attacking a high damage output toon if that's the damage you are doing...

Dual nirnhoned, 5 light, apprentice.
Don't put many CP in it because it's nowhere as efficient as magic/elemental damage, unless you have can cap those.
So I'd say, max penetration you can get without destro?

I haven't used a full spell resists penetration/reduction build, but off the top of my head, here are the things you need without destro staff skill bonus:

Take 5/7 light armor for 'full set of light armor' benefit, have the infallible mage set or wise mage set if you can't get infallible, divines on all pieces to boost apprentice (I think, but am not sure, that you can get a full divine set out of the available infallible pieces), apply major and minor breach, put at least some champ points in erosion, and use a nirnhoned weapon.

Does major fracture reduce armor or just physical resistance (many tooltips say reduce armor but mean reduce physical resistance...)? If so, maybe use pierce armor.

Infallible and wise mage reduce both spell resist and armor by 10%. Assuming they actually mean reduce armor and not reduce physical resistance (which is botched on multiple tooltips...), reducing armor also reduces spell resistance. I haven't run any tests and don't know if the maths are the same as for reducing armor (e.g., maces).

I don't think there is currently a minor breach in the game. Perhaps the bonus from infallible is minor breach? In any case, I don't think either infallible or wise mage have jewelry or weapon pieces, which would mean they can't be stacked.

Did I miss anything?

I doubt you can get to 30k+ magicka with a full spell resistance bypass (reduce + penetration) build. You can probably pump your spell damage a bit, though.

ToRelax

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

People actually think stacking nirn over 2 pieces has diminishing returns... ?
I mean... I can understand why someone would think that way if he would stack flat resistance. But not percentages stacking on themselves. That's some fine maths right there .

They probably confuse the fact that (at some point) you reach the spell resist hardcap with diminishing return, when it's actually pretty much the opposite of that.

Yawn. Last reset in Azura's, I played for only around 12 nights out of the 30 days and still was rank 40. Guess what? I use a nirnhoned staff for the spell pen, and one lonely piece of nirnhoned armor. I could add more, but I'd gimp my offense to do so, and magic attacks aren't as hard to deal with as physical ones which are far more prevalent in the first place, so dumping something like Valkyn Skoria so I could use nirn more would be laughably silly. I just plain don't struggle to survive against casters with my paltry 25k resist, and I hit people stacking 50 to 60k like a truck still between my spell pen on gear, passives, Mundus stone, and a bit extra from champ. Like they say on tech forums, it isn't the game or computer... it's a PEBKAC error.

Be careful not to strain your arm patting yourself on the back.

My Magicka DK: gold nirn staff + 5 pieces light armor + apprentice mundas = hitting nirn stackers for a fraction tooltip damage on my force pulse. nirn sucks and it sucks hard.

Tooltips are not an accurate way to determine the damage you "should" be dealing, as they don't take into account the majority of other damage modifiers in the game. Do what I did which was to log in two characters and actually test, or ask a friend to help you do it that you can give nirnhoned gear to on live or PTS. I still hit for a "fraction", but it is a large one , and not that much smaller than the "fraction" I hit someone for who isn't wearing excessive spell resistance. You give up a lot of gear choices if you stack your spell resistance to the level it actually can halve a well built enemy's damage output. Like I've said before in other threads, we need to slow down time to kill, not speed it up by nerfing nirnhoned in a vacuum. Frankly, it's one of the things in this game that is close to perfect on balance, and could possibly stand a reduction of its percentage by a small amount (18 to 20% at legendary instead of 24% on an armor item as it is now). In tandem with that, as I've said many times over the past few months, balancing out nirnhoned with an equivalent physical resistance trait available such as retuning Reinforced to work in the same way and percentages, would go a long way towards fixing the incredibly bursty gameplay that has come to become a large amount of the encounters you fight in now in Cyrodiil. Some people are saying that the TTK is too slow, but I'd actually posit that for magicka users, it's just right.

Now we need to balance it for physical builds to match, along with (also mentioned many times before) bringing more parity to the amounts of weapon damage you can stack in feasible/good gear combinations versus how much you can stack spell damage in a similar fashion. The best usable builds in PVE and PVP for spell damage, excluding using dual wield weapons which sacrifices your magicka-based medium-weave attack and is normally a substantial part of your damage (it accounts for around 15-20% of my damage output for example on my Dragon Knight) while cutting yourself off from weapon-based magicka skills, is around the 2900-3100 range. In a good physical-based build, it is very practical to carry around 3500+ weapon damage and in high-damage builds along the lines of the magicka comparison, over 4,100-4,300. You can also opt to drop a few hundred or so of that weapon damage and slot in sets like Hawk Eye or Morag Tong which fit well in a variety of builds, for 5% reduced bow skill cost and increased damage, or 15% extra (bow skill essentially) damage with poisons (which the bow skills morph into). The only comparable item set for magicka builds is the Sun set, which is a 5% bonus to fire damage, and there is no comparable set like Ravaging for physical builds. This is by and large more of the same that I've already posted, but I've noticed a handful of others are beginning to comment along the same lines such as Xsorus more recently.

"You hit [shameless EP Nirn stacker] for 468 with force pulse." That's hit. Not blocked. Not absorbed. Hit.

It's not that more people are beginning to comment like Xsorus, it that the people sick of the nirn garbage like Pixiesticks have left the game and the forums until ZoS fixes this debacle.

Pixie sticks ran 40k magicka and 3k spell power. How much spell penetration do you think pixie was stacking? And you sure as poop aren't attacking a high damage output toon if that's the damage you are doing...

Dual nirnhoned, 5 light, apprentice.
Don't put many CP in it because it's nowhere as efficient as magic/elemental damage, unless you have can cap those.
So I'd say, max penetration you can get without destro?

I haven't used a full spell resists penetration/reduction build, but off the top of my head, here are the things you need without destro staff skill bonus:

Take 5/7 light armor for 'full set of light armor' benefit, have the infallible mage set or wise mage set if you can't get infallible, divines on all pieces to boost apprentice (I think, but am not sure, that you can get a full divine set out of the available infallible pieces), apply major and minor breach, put at least some champ points in erosion, and use a nirnhoned weapon.

Does major fracture reduce armor or just physical resistance (many tooltips say reduce armor but mean reduce physical resistance...)? If so, maybe use pierce armor.

Infallible and wise mage reduce both spell resist and armor by 10%. Assuming they actually mean reduce armor and not reduce physical resistance (which is botched on multiple tooltips...), reducing armor also reduces spell resistance. I haven't run any tests and don't know if the maths are the same as for reducing armor (e.g., maces).

I don't think there is currently a minor breach in the game. Perhaps the bonus from infallible is minor breach? In any case, I don't think either infallible or wise mage have jewelry or weapon pieces, which would mean they can't be stacked.

Did I miss anything?

I doubt you can get to 30k+ magicka with a full spell resistance bypass (reduce + penetration) build. You can probably pump your spell damage a bit, though.

It's about maximizing your damage output especially vs opponents with high spell resist, not about stacking as much spell penetration as possible.
I don't remember Infallible Mage bonuses right now but I'm pretty sure you would rather go with Martial Knowledge than Wise Mage...

And armor is armor, what you mean by physical resistance I can't tell. Either as synonym for armor or as a term for resistance against damage of the type physical (I can only guess it's called like that, idk), so without effecting poison or disease damage for example.
The fact that armor applies it's armor value to both armor and spell resistance in 1.6 doesn't mean that the attribute armor now counts for both.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Behold a sad accuse saying nirnhond isn't broken but it is broken and needs to be removed from the game.

Domander

ToRelax wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

People actually think stacking nirn over 2 pieces has diminishing returns... ?
I mean... I can understand why someone would think that way if he would stack flat resistance. But not percentages stacking on themselves. That's some fine maths right there .

They probably confuse the fact that (at some point) you reach the spell resist hardcap with diminishing return, when it's actually pretty much the opposite of that.

Yawn. Last reset in Azura's, I played for only around 12 nights out of the 30 days and still was rank 40. Guess what? I use a nirnhoned staff for the spell pen, and one lonely piece of nirnhoned armor. I could add more, but I'd gimp my offense to do so, and magic attacks aren't as hard to deal with as physical ones which are far more prevalent in the first place, so dumping something like Valkyn Skoria so I could use nirn more would be laughably silly. I just plain don't struggle to survive against casters with my paltry 25k resist, and I hit people stacking 50 to 60k like a truck still between my spell pen on gear, passives, Mundus stone, and a bit extra from champ. Like they say on tech forums, it isn't the game or computer... it's a PEBKAC error.

Be careful not to strain your arm patting yourself on the back.

My Magicka DK: gold nirn staff + 5 pieces light armor + apprentice mundas = hitting nirn stackers for a fraction tooltip damage on my force pulse. nirn sucks and it sucks hard.

Tooltips are not an accurate way to determine the damage you "should" be dealing, as they don't take into account the majority of other damage modifiers in the game. Do what I did which was to log in two characters and actually test, or ask a friend to help you do it that you can give nirnhoned gear to on live or PTS. I still hit for a "fraction", but it is a large one , and not that much smaller than the "fraction" I hit someone for who isn't wearing excessive spell resistance. You give up a lot of gear choices if you stack your spell resistance to the level it actually can halve a well built enemy's damage output. Like I've said before in other threads, we need to slow down time to kill, not speed it up by nerfing nirnhoned in a vacuum. Frankly, it's one of the things in this game that is close to perfect on balance, and could possibly stand a reduction of its percentage by a small amount (18 to 20% at legendary instead of 24% on an armor item as it is now). In tandem with that, as I've said many times over the past few months, balancing out nirnhoned with an equivalent physical resistance trait available such as retuning Reinforced to work in the same way and percentages, would go a long way towards fixing the incredibly bursty gameplay that has come to become a large amount of the encounters you fight in now in Cyrodiil. Some people are saying that the TTK is too slow, but I'd actually posit that for magicka users, it's just right.

Now we need to balance it for physical builds to match, along with (also mentioned many times before) bringing more parity to the amounts of weapon damage you can stack in feasible/good gear combinations versus how much you can stack spell damage in a similar fashion. The best usable builds in PVE and PVP for spell damage, excluding using dual wield weapons which sacrifices your magicka-based medium-weave attack and is normally a substantial part of your damage (it accounts for around 15-20% of my damage output for example on my Dragon Knight) while cutting yourself off from weapon-based magicka skills, is around the 2900-3100 range. In a good physical-based build, it is very practical to carry around 3500+ weapon damage and in high-damage builds along the lines of the magicka comparison, over 4,100-4,300. You can also opt to drop a few hundred or so of that weapon damage and slot in sets like Hawk Eye or Morag Tong which fit well in a variety of builds, for 5% reduced bow skill cost and increased damage, or 15% extra (bow skill essentially) damage with poisons (which the bow skills morph into). The only comparable item set for magicka builds is the Sun set, which is a 5% bonus to fire damage, and there is no comparable set like Ravaging for physical builds. This is by and large more of the same that I've already posted, but I've noticed a handful of others are beginning to comment along the same lines such as Xsorus more recently.

"You hit [shameless EP Nirn stacker] for 468 with force pulse." That's hit. Not blocked. Not absorbed. Hit.

It's not that more people are beginning to comment like Xsorus, it that the people sick of the nirn garbage like Pixiesticks have left the game and the forums until ZoS fixes this debacle.

Pixie sticks ran 40k magicka and 3k spell power. How much spell penetration do you think pixie was stacking? And you sure as poop aren't attacking a high damage output toon if that's the damage you are doing...

Dual nirnhoned, 5 light, apprentice.
Don't put many CP in it because it's nowhere as efficient as magic/elemental damage, unless you have can cap those.
So I'd say, max penetration you can get without destro?

I haven't used a full spell resists penetration/reduction build, but off the top of my head, here are the things you need without destro staff skill bonus:

Take 5/7 light armor for 'full set of light armor' benefit, have the infallible mage set or wise mage set if you can't get infallible, divines on all pieces to boost apprentice (I think, but am not sure, that you can get a full divine set out of the available infallible pieces), apply major and minor breach, put at least some champ points in erosion, and use a nirnhoned weapon.

Does major fracture reduce armor or just physical resistance (many tooltips say reduce armor but mean reduce physical resistance...)? If so, maybe use pierce armor.

Infallible and wise mage reduce both spell resist and armor by 10%. Assuming they actually mean reduce armor and not reduce physical resistance (which is botched on multiple tooltips...), reducing armor also reduces spell resistance. I haven't run any tests and don't know if the maths are the same as for reducing armor (e.g., maces).

I don't think there is currently a minor breach in the game. Perhaps the bonus from infallible is minor breach? In any case, I don't think either infallible or wise mage have jewelry or weapon pieces, which would mean they can't be stacked.

Did I miss anything?

I doubt you can get to 30k+ magicka with a full spell resistance bypass (reduce + penetration) build. You can probably pump your spell damage a bit, though.

It's about maximizing your damage output especially vs opponents with high spell resist, not about stacking as much spell penetration as possible.
I don't remember Infallible Mage bonuses right now but I'm pretty sure you would rather go with Martial Knowledge than Wise Mage...

And armor is armor, what you mean by physical resistance I can't tell. Either as synonym for armor or as a term for resistance against damage of the type physical (I can only guess it's called like that, idk), so without effecting poison or disease damage for example.
The fact that armor applies it's armor value to both armor and spell resistance in 1.6 doesn't mean that the attribute armor now counts for both.

Yes armor is armor, but its called physical resistance in the character sheet, so I wanted to be clear.

Wreuntzylla

ToRelax wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

People actually think stacking nirn over 2 pieces has diminishing returns... ?
I mean... I can understand why someone would think that way if he would stack flat resistance. But not percentages stacking on themselves. That's some fine maths right there .

They probably confuse the fact that (at some point) you reach the spell resist hardcap with diminishing return, when it's actually pretty much the opposite of that.

Yawn. Last reset in Azura's, I played for only around 12 nights out of the 30 days and still was rank 40. Guess what? I use a nirnhoned staff for the spell pen, and one lonely piece of nirnhoned armor. I could add more, but I'd gimp my offense to do so, and magic attacks aren't as hard to deal with as physical ones which are far more prevalent in the first place, so dumping something like Valkyn Skoria so I could use nirn more would be laughably silly. I just plain don't struggle to survive against casters with my paltry 25k resist, and I hit people stacking 50 to 60k like a truck still between my spell pen on gear, passives, Mundus stone, and a bit extra from champ. Like they say on tech forums, it isn't the game or computer... it's a PEBKAC error.

Be careful not to strain your arm patting yourself on the back.

My Magicka DK: gold nirn staff + 5 pieces light armor + apprentice mundas = hitting nirn stackers for a fraction tooltip damage on my force pulse. nirn sucks and it sucks hard.

Tooltips are not an accurate way to determine the damage you "should" be dealing, as they don't take into account the majority of other damage modifiers in the game. Do what I did which was to log in two characters and actually test, or ask a friend to help you do it that you can give nirnhoned gear to on live or PTS. I still hit for a "fraction", but it is a large one , and not that much smaller than the "fraction" I hit someone for who isn't wearing excessive spell resistance. You give up a lot of gear choices if you stack your spell resistance to the level it actually can halve a well built enemy's damage output. Like I've said before in other threads, we need to slow down time to kill, not speed it up by nerfing nirnhoned in a vacuum. Frankly, it's one of the things in this game that is close to perfect on balance, and could possibly stand a reduction of its percentage by a small amount (18 to 20% at legendary instead of 24% on an armor item as it is now). In tandem with that, as I've said many times over the past few months, balancing out nirnhoned with an equivalent physical resistance trait available such as retuning Reinforced to work in the same way and percentages, would go a long way towards fixing the incredibly bursty gameplay that has come to become a large amount of the encounters you fight in now in Cyrodiil. Some people are saying that the TTK is too slow, but I'd actually posit that for magicka users, it's just right.

Now we need to balance it for physical builds to match, along with (also mentioned many times before) bringing more parity to the amounts of weapon damage you can stack in feasible/good gear combinations versus how much you can stack spell damage in a similar fashion. The best usable builds in PVE and PVP for spell damage, excluding using dual wield weapons which sacrifices your magicka-based medium-weave attack and is normally a substantial part of your damage (it accounts for around 15-20% of my damage output for example on my Dragon Knight) while cutting yourself off from weapon-based magicka skills, is around the 2900-3100 range. In a good physical-based build, it is very practical to carry around 3500+ weapon damage and in high-damage builds along the lines of the magicka comparison, over 4,100-4,300. You can also opt to drop a few hundred or so of that weapon damage and slot in sets like Hawk Eye or Morag Tong which fit well in a variety of builds, for 5% reduced bow skill cost and increased damage, or 15% extra (bow skill essentially) damage with poisons (which the bow skills morph into). The only comparable item set for magicka builds is the Sun set, which is a 5% bonus to fire damage, and there is no comparable set like Ravaging for physical builds. This is by and large more of the same that I've already posted, but I've noticed a handful of others are beginning to comment along the same lines such as Xsorus more recently.

"You hit [shameless EP Nirn stacker] for 468 with force pulse." That's hit. Not blocked. Not absorbed. Hit.

It's not that more people are beginning to comment like Xsorus, it that the people sick of the nirn garbage like Pixiesticks have left the game and the forums until ZoS fixes this debacle.

Pixie sticks ran 40k magicka and 3k spell power. How much spell penetration do you think pixie was stacking? And you sure as poop aren't attacking a high damage output toon if that's the damage you are doing...

Dual nirnhoned, 5 light, apprentice.
Don't put many CP in it because it's nowhere as efficient as magic/elemental damage, unless you have can cap those.
So I'd say, max penetration you can get without destro?

I haven't used a full spell resists penetration/reduction build, but off the top of my head, here are the things you need without destro staff skill bonus:

Take 5/7 light armor for 'full set of light armor' benefit, have the infallible mage set or wise mage set if you can't get infallible, divines on all pieces to boost apprentice (I think, but am not sure, that you can get a full divine set out of the available infallible pieces), apply major and minor breach, put at least some champ points in erosion, and use a nirnhoned weapon.

Does major fracture reduce armor or just physical resistance (many tooltips say reduce armor but mean reduce physical resistance...)? If so, maybe use pierce armor.

Infallible and wise mage reduce both spell resist and armor by 10%. Assuming they actually mean reduce armor and not reduce physical resistance (which is botched on multiple tooltips...), reducing armor also reduces spell resistance. I haven't run any tests and don't know if the maths are the same as for reducing armor (e.g., maces).

I don't think there is currently a minor breach in the game. Perhaps the bonus from infallible is minor breach? In any case, I don't think either infallible or wise mage have jewelry or weapon pieces, which would mean they can't be stacked.

Did I miss anything?

I doubt you can get to 30k+ magicka with a full spell resistance bypass (reduce + penetration) build. You can probably pump your spell damage a bit, though.

It's about maximizing your damage output especially vs opponents with high spell resist, not about stacking as much spell penetration as possible.
I don't remember Infallible Mage bonuses right now but I'm pretty sure you would rather go with Martial Knowledge than Wise Mage...

And armor is armor, what you mean by physical resistance I can't tell. Either as synonym for armor or as a term for resistance against damage of the type physical (I can only guess it's called like that, idk), so without effecting poison or disease damage for example.
The fact that armor applies it's armor value to both armor and spell resistance in 1.6 doesn't mean that the attribute armor now counts for both.

Armor decreases the amount of damage you take from physical attacks and magic attacks. Physical resistance only gives you resistance to physical attacks. So if you lower their armor, you increase both physical and magic damage. If you lower their physical resistance, you only increase physical damage.

You can't straight compare Martial to Infallible. It depends on the amount of resistance you are facing, how often you use a heavy attack, how many attacks you can get into 4sec, how you fit other stats in, etc.

The point is mitigation v. base damage for your build.

Stacking v. Nonstacking

Infallible = 5% = 3200
Light Armor Passive = 4736
Apprentice = 5% = 3200
7 divines = 2.625% = 1680
Nirnhoned weapon = 18% = 11520
Major Breach: 5120
Probably missing other sources which @Attorneyatlawl could probably point out.

Assumptions:
Non-stacker: 16256 penetration from nirnhone weapon and LA bonus
Stacker: 29456 from the sources shown above
Target Resist: 32,500 spell resist (49.2% mitigation, can't recall the exact value for 50%)
Target Level: VR14
Damaging Spell: Crystal Frags
Same damage stats for both stacker and nonstacker (poor assumption).

Also note that nonstacker will do more damage against low resist targets, but the issue raised in this thread is the high mitigation meta.

CoolModi's Formula: Damage = Base Damage * (1 - ((Resistance-Penetration) / (Target Level * 10)) / 100

I'm taking tooltip value reported by @Ezareth - 7037. No idea how his base compares to an average sorc.

Damage No Penetration = 7037 * (1-((32,500)/640)/100 = 7037 * 0.492 = 3462
Damage [29456 penetration] = 7037 * (1-((32,500-29456)/640)/100 = 7037 * 0.952 = 6699
Damage [16256 penetration] = 7037 * (1-((32500-16256/640)/100) = 7037 * 0.746 = 5250 (-1449)
Equivalent Base Damage Needed by Nonstacker to reach 6699 damage [16256 penetration] = 8979 (+1942)
Damage without infallible [26256 penetration] = 7037 * (1-((32,500-26256)/640)/100 = 7037 * 0.902 = 6347

The formula allows you to add the crit damage in the formula or use tooltip damage and do a 50% calc after. But here is the formula anyway.

Damage No Penetration = 10556 * (1-((32,500)/640)/100 = 10556 * 0.492 = 5196
Damage [29456 penetration] = 10556 * (1-((32,500-29456)/640)/100 = 10556 * 0.952 = 10049
Damage [16256 penetration] = 10556 * (1-((32500-16256/640)/100) = 10556 * 0.746 = 7874 (-2175)
Equivalent Base Damage Needed by Nonstacker [16256 penetration] = 13458 (+2902)
Damage without infallible [26256 penetration] = 10556 * (1-((32,500-26256)/640)/100 = 10556 * 0.902 = 9522

Of course, average damage depends on you crit % so the crit differences will mix with the noncrit differences.

Martial Knowledge v. Infallible

From @evedgebah - ESO 2.0.3

Tooltip = (A + P × 10.46) × 0.15 × 1.08

Magicka: A
Spell Power: P
skill_coef crystal frags: ~.15
rank_coef: 1.08

Average Skill Damage = ((A+P×10.46)×S×R) + ((A+P×10.46)×S×R)×C×0.5

So, based on the formula, it looks like adding 177 spell power and 933 magicka (what infallible is missing) adds 452 damage. Infallible adds 351 damage.

For infallible, we also have 1328 crit, which (i think) is 6% crit and adds ~100-300 average damage depending on your stats.

So we are left with 10% additional damage from martial knowledge every 4sec and fully charged heavy attacks that give 581 added damage. Every 4sec means you never know what skill it will be applied to and if you animation clip, it's likely every 9th skill you cast. Further, you have to cast a fully charged heavy attack (0.5-1sec (?) second depending on the weapon) to get the extra damage from infallible. Probably suit DK best, some classes/specs not at all.

ToRelax

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

People actually think stacking nirn over 2 pieces has diminishing returns... ?
I mean... I can understand why someone would think that way if he would stack flat resistance. But not percentages stacking on themselves. That's some fine maths right there .

They probably confuse the fact that (at some point) you reach the spell resist hardcap with diminishing return, when it's actually pretty much the opposite of that.

Yawn. Last reset in Azura's, I played for only around 12 nights out of the 30 days and still was rank 40. Guess what? I use a nirnhoned staff for the spell pen, and one lonely piece of nirnhoned armor. I could add more, but I'd gimp my offense to do so, and magic attacks aren't as hard to deal with as physical ones which are far more prevalent in the first place, so dumping something like Valkyn Skoria so I could use nirn more would be laughably silly. I just plain don't struggle to survive against casters with my paltry 25k resist, and I hit people stacking 50 to 60k like a truck still between my spell pen on gear, passives, Mundus stone, and a bit extra from champ. Like they say on tech forums, it isn't the game or computer... it's a PEBKAC error.

Be careful not to strain your arm patting yourself on the back.

My Magicka DK: gold nirn staff + 5 pieces light armor + apprentice mundas = hitting nirn stackers for a fraction tooltip damage on my force pulse. nirn sucks and it sucks hard.

Tooltips are not an accurate way to determine the damage you "should" be dealing, as they don't take into account the majority of other damage modifiers in the game. Do what I did which was to log in two characters and actually test, or ask a friend to help you do it that you can give nirnhoned gear to on live or PTS. I still hit for a "fraction", but it is a large one , and not that much smaller than the "fraction" I hit someone for who isn't wearing excessive spell resistance. You give up a lot of gear choices if you stack your spell resistance to the level it actually can halve a well built enemy's damage output. Like I've said before in other threads, we need to slow down time to kill, not speed it up by nerfing nirnhoned in a vacuum. Frankly, it's one of the things in this game that is close to perfect on balance, and could possibly stand a reduction of its percentage by a small amount (18 to 20% at legendary instead of 24% on an armor item as it is now). In tandem with that, as I've said many times over the past few months, balancing out nirnhoned with an equivalent physical resistance trait available such as retuning Reinforced to work in the same way and percentages, would go a long way towards fixing the incredibly bursty gameplay that has come to become a large amount of the encounters you fight in now in Cyrodiil. Some people are saying that the TTK is too slow, but I'd actually posit that for magicka users, it's just right.

Now we need to balance it for physical builds to match, along with (also mentioned many times before) bringing more parity to the amounts of weapon damage you can stack in feasible/good gear combinations versus how much you can stack spell damage in a similar fashion. The best usable builds in PVE and PVP for spell damage, excluding using dual wield weapons which sacrifices your magicka-based medium-weave attack and is normally a substantial part of your damage (it accounts for around 15-20% of my damage output for example on my Dragon Knight) while cutting yourself off from weapon-based magicka skills, is around the 2900-3100 range. In a good physical-based build, it is very practical to carry around 3500+ weapon damage and in high-damage builds along the lines of the magicka comparison, over 4,100-4,300. You can also opt to drop a few hundred or so of that weapon damage and slot in sets like Hawk Eye or Morag Tong which fit well in a variety of builds, for 5% reduced bow skill cost and increased damage, or 15% extra (bow skill essentially) damage with poisons (which the bow skills morph into). The only comparable item set for magicka builds is the Sun set, which is a 5% bonus to fire damage, and there is no comparable set like Ravaging for physical builds. This is by and large more of the same that I've already posted, but I've noticed a handful of others are beginning to comment along the same lines such as Xsorus more recently.

"You hit [shameless EP Nirn stacker] for 468 with force pulse." That's hit. Not blocked. Not absorbed. Hit.

It's not that more people are beginning to comment like Xsorus, it that the people sick of the nirn garbage like Pixiesticks have left the game and the forums until ZoS fixes this debacle.

Pixie sticks ran 40k magicka and 3k spell power. How much spell penetration do you think pixie was stacking? And you sure as poop aren't attacking a high damage output toon if that's the damage you are doing...

Dual nirnhoned, 5 light, apprentice.
Don't put many CP in it because it's nowhere as efficient as magic/elemental damage, unless you have can cap those.
So I'd say, max penetration you can get without destro?

I haven't used a full spell resists penetration/reduction build, but off the top of my head, here are the things you need without destro staff skill bonus:

Take 5/7 light armor for 'full set of light armor' benefit, have the infallible mage set or wise mage set if you can't get infallible, divines on all pieces to boost apprentice (I think, but am not sure, that you can get a full divine set out of the available infallible pieces), apply major and minor breach, put at least some champ points in erosion, and use a nirnhoned weapon.

Does major fracture reduce armor or just physical resistance (many tooltips say reduce armor but mean reduce physical resistance...)? If so, maybe use pierce armor.

Infallible and wise mage reduce both spell resist and armor by 10%. Assuming they actually mean reduce armor and not reduce physical resistance (which is botched on multiple tooltips...), reducing armor also reduces spell resistance. I haven't run any tests and don't know if the maths are the same as for reducing armor (e.g., maces).

I don't think there is currently a minor breach in the game. Perhaps the bonus from infallible is minor breach? In any case, I don't think either infallible or wise mage have jewelry or weapon pieces, which would mean they can't be stacked.

Did I miss anything?

I doubt you can get to 30k+ magicka with a full spell resistance bypass (reduce + penetration) build. You can probably pump your spell damage a bit, though.

It's about maximizing your damage output especially vs opponents with high spell resist, not about stacking as much spell penetration as possible.
I don't remember Infallible Mage bonuses right now but I'm pretty sure you would rather go with Martial Knowledge than Wise Mage...

And armor is armor, what you mean by physical resistance I can't tell. Either as synonym for armor or as a term for resistance against damage of the type physical (I can only guess it's called like that, idk), so without effecting poison or disease damage for example.
The fact that armor applies it's armor value to both armor and spell resistance in 1.6 doesn't mean that the attribute armor now counts for both.

Armor decreases the amount of damage you take from physical attacks and magic attacks. Physical resistance only gives you resistance to physical attacks. So if you lower their armor, you increase both physical and magic damage. If you lower their physical resistance, you only increase physical damage.

So I just looked that up now - Fracture reduces physical resistance and Breach reduces spell resistance.
No debuff to decrease both.

You can't straight compare Martial to Infallible. It depends on the amount of resistance you are facing, how often you use a heavy attack, how many attacks you can get into 4sec, how you fit other stats in, etc.

The point is mitigation v. base damage for your build.

Stacking v. Nonstacking

Infallible = 5% = 3200
Light Armor Passive = 4736
Apprentice = 5% = 3200
7 divines = 2.625% = 1680
Nirnhoned weapon = 18% = 11520
Major Breach: 5120
Probably missing other sources which Attorneyatlawl could probably point out.

Not all of these bonuses give you a flat amount of spell penetration.

Martial Knowledge v. Infallible

From @evedgebah - ESO 2.0.3

Tooltip = (A + P × 10.46) × 0.15 × 1.08

Magicka: A
Spell Power: P
skill_coef crystal frags: ~.15
rank_coef: 1.08

Average Skill Damage = ((A+P×10.46)×S×R) + ((A+P×10.46)×S×R)×C×0.5

So, based on the formula, it looks like adding 177 spell power and 933 magicka (what infallible is missing) adds 452 damage. Infallible adds 351 damage.

For infallible, we also have 1328 crit, which (i think) is 6% crit and adds ~100-300 average damage depending on your stats.

So we are left with 10% additional damage from martial knowledge every 4sec and fully charged heavy attacks that give 581 added damage. Every 4sec means you never know what skill it will be applied to and if you animation clip, it's likely every 9th skill you cast. Further, you have to cast a fully charged heavy attack (0.5-1sec (?) second depending on the weapon) to get the extra damage from infallible. Probably suit DK best, some classes/specs not at all.

We are using only 4 pieces of Martial Knowledge and use the extra slot for another set.

Ezareth

Joy_Division wrote: »

"You hit [shameless EP Nirn stacker] for 468 with force pulse." That's hit. Not blocked. Not absorbed. Hit.

It's not that more people are beginning to comment like Xsorus, it that the people sick of the nirn garbage like Pixiesticks have left the game and the forums until ZoS fixes this debacle.

Not just Pixie, I haven't PvPed on my Sorc for weeks, and PvP is in such a sorry state right now I have no interest in playing on my NB or at all.

Guys like Xsorus who still defend this garbage are just biased as hell or trolling or both.

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Pixie sticks ran 40k magicka and 3k spell power. How much spell penetration do you think pixie was stacking? And you sure as poop aren't attacking a high damage output toon if that's the damage you are doing...

If I recall it was 38K Magicka and ~2400 spellpower.

RinaldoGandolphi

Ezareth wrote: »

Not just Pixie, I haven't PvPed on my Sorc for weeks, and PvP is in such a sorry state right now I have no interest in playing on my NB or at all.

Guys like Xsorus who still defend this garbage are just biased as hell or trolling or both.

Yup, the way Nirn is now, everyone is pretty much running it, is garbage.

Hopefully though, we will get a patch next week because console launch is next week and they have apatch slated for that day....they "should" have the Nirn fix in there. they have way too much riding on console not too....fingers crossed that Nirn is nerfed next week.

Makkir

I want an armor trait that reduces rubber banding by 24%, multiplicative of course.

PainfulFAFA

timidobserver wrote: »

I would be satisfied with just making reinforced work the same way.

This.

It is unfair that you can make items that increase SPELL damage resistance and nothing that works against WEAPON damage.
At least they can make Reinforced trait work the same way. Reinforced as it is, is completely useless.

I still don't understand ZOS logic and why they haven't thought of this.