Make all damage shields in game scale with health.

Lhorion

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

This would make health more of a stat you would want defensively as opposed to getting double the benefit of offense and defense from another resource pool.

choices...choices..

Here's the damage shields that should change.

brawler
whitestrakes
annulment
conjured ward


Steadfast ward is a healing tool, and for the sake of balance already scales with health. It scales with missing health. A higher health pool will allow you to more easily take advantage of this scaling.

Barrier should stay scaling off highest stat, I think it should be changed to allow health to increase it's value, if that should be the highest stat. It is an ultimate after all. This is really the only exception that makes sense to me. It is technically a damage shield, but it's also an ultimate.

The other damage shields in the game scale with health, or are static.


discuss.

No.
There is already plenty of Templar and DK tank builds in PvP which can easily mitigate a group of damage dealers. They usually have high base HP and Stamina. If you would add them a shield scaling with their health, they would be virtually immortal.

You know that templar and DK class shields are scaling with health right now?

If all class shields would scale with health sorcs would have to do a compromise when they want a strong shield. Would be fair. I have a V14 Sorc and yes, this shield scaling with magicka is too much.

ForTheRealm

Just imagine adding a HP-scaled shield to a build like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgNFBKNCd7Q

It would be able to tank the whole army :-(

ForTheRealm

Lhorion wrote: »

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

This would make health more of a stat you would want defensively as opposed to getting double the benefit of offense and defense from another resource pool.

choices...choices..

Here's the damage shields that should change.

brawler
whitestrakes
annulment
conjured ward


Steadfast ward is a healing tool, and for the sake of balance already scales with health. It scales with missing health. A higher health pool will allow you to more easily take advantage of this scaling.

Barrier should stay scaling off highest stat, I think it should be changed to allow health to increase it's value, if that should be the highest stat. It is an ultimate after all. This is really the only exception that makes sense to me. It is technically a damage shield, but it's also an ultimate.

The other damage shields in the game scale with health, or are static.


discuss.

No.
There is already plenty of Templar and DK tank builds in PvP which can easily mitigate a group of damage dealers. They usually have high base HP and Stamina. If you would add them a shield scaling with their health, they would be virtually immortal.

You know that templar and DK class shields are scaling with health right now?

If all class shields would scale with health sorcs would have to do a compromise when they want a strong shield. Would be fair. I have a V14 Sorc and yes, this shield scaling with magicka is too much.

LOL, So you just calling to nerf Sorcs and not change the shields mechanics?

BTW. Which DK shield is scaling with health right now?

Lhorion

I don't think it would be a huge nerf, it just would force Sorcerers to make a compromise. If Harness should scale with Health.... Not sure, but might be good, too. Shields (defense) should scale with health because a damage build would have to make a compromise having defense at the same time. Pushing Magicka for damage, defense, mobility at the Same time is - my oppinion - stupid. Or in your words: LOL!

Which DK shield scales with health?
Let's think about it.... Maybe the class shield from Earhern Heart called Obsidian Shield (famous morph: Igneous Shield).

Lhorion

P.S.: Dragon Leap and Spiked Armour (the shieldmorph) depend on Health, too.

ForTheRealm

Lhorion wrote: »

I don't think it would be a huge nerf, it just would force Sorcerers to make a compromise. If Harness should scale with Health.... Not sure, but might be good, too. Shields (defense) should scale with health because a damage build would have to make a compromise having defense at the same time. Pushing Magicka for damage, defense, mobility at the Same time is - my oppinion - stupid. Or in your words: LOL!

Which DK shield scales with health?
Let's think about it.... Maybe the class shield from Earhern Heart called Obsidian Shield (famous morph: Igneous Shield).

So if you want a Sorc nerf just call it that way and explain reasoning, and do not try to cover it under "Make all damage shields in game scale with health" idea.

I personally believe that it would be much easier to balance game if shields would be only stamina/magicka based. Then everyone would make a decision to invest in skills (stamina/magicka) which are more defensive or offensive. Mixing this with a health pool just makes another mess.

Lhorion

You do not understand. It is not just about sorcs. I have a magicka DK with shieldstacking (class + Harness and in some duels + Boneshield). And here is the same. My Harness is extremly strong because of my magicka. If all shields would scale with health I would have to rethink my attributes. Every build with shields should have this compromise to make: Full damage = weaker shields/ strong shields = less damage (still enough).

Most tank builds in heavy armour and with S&B don't care about shields because the armour/resi does not count on shields. Have you ever seen a heavy armour build shieldstacking? DKs for examle use in heavy their class shield for healing.

Emma_Overload

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Just imagine adding a HP-scaled shield to a build like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgNFBKNCd7Q

It would be able to tank the whole army :-(

That's no joke, and I can't believe people are asking for this without thinking through to the inevitable consequences: unkillable Sorc Tanks and new life for Stamina Sorcs!

Honestly, I don't care either way. My Sorcerer goes back and forth between Stamina and Magkica builds every 2 weeks anyway, so I'll find a way make this lemon into lemonade if this nerf actually happens.

Erock25

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Since dodge roll seems "meh" and hardened ward OP, let's take away Hardened ward and replace it with a dodge roll sorc skill that uses magicka. Should make everybody happy, no?

If a dodge roll could heal me, or would allow me to deal damage while I dodge, YES !

You should be embarrassed of commenting on something without knowing how to use it properly. Look here http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/169525/solo-nightblade-keep-defense-1vx-pvp-w-sypher#latest and see how to do damage while dodge rolling. Here is a hint .... dodge roll doesn't take up the same global cool down as activating an ability.

Tintinabula

Igneous shield is based off health .

Ezareth

Erock25 wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Since dodge roll seems "meh" and hardened ward OP, let's take away Hardened ward and replace it with a dodge roll sorc skill that uses magicka. Should make everybody happy, no?

If a dodge roll could heal me, or would allow me to deal damage while I dodge, YES !

You should be embarrassed of commenting on something without knowing how to use it properly. Look here http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/169525/solo-nightblade-keep-defense-1vx-pvp-w-sypher#latest and see how to do damage while dodge rolling. Here is a hint .... dodge roll doesn't take up the same global cool down as activating an ability.

Yup, this is why I'm not even playing my Sorc any more. It is absurd how easy it is for me to kill shield stacking sorcs with 30K hps on my NB in BWB. Lv 49 Sorc last night was trying to kill my L28 NB with my own game by overloading me to death. He hit me with 1 overload while I did nothing but dodge roll animation cancel > crit charge > dodge roll animation cancel crit charge > wrecking blow. Once he broke free and tried to run I crit charge spammed every bolt escape he cast and put him down like a rabid dog. The fight ended with me at full health, magicka, and 80% Stamina. The funny thing is I don't even have fear yet.

Dodge Roll Spam, Wrecking Blow Spam, Fear Spam, cast anything and I'll Venom Arrow > crit charge you for +25% damage.

NBs and stam builds are unholy terrors right now and who are the people complaining about Sorcs? Irony at its finest.

Varicite

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Just imagine adding a HP-scaled shield to a build like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgNFBKNCd7Q

It would be able to tank the whole army :-(

But.. this build is using a HP-scaled shield already.

And this post even has an agree? Seriously?

Do people even play this game before posting here?

technohic

Varicite wrote: »

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Just imagine adding a HP-scaled shield to a build like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgNFBKNCd7Q

It would be able to tank the whole army :-(

But.. this build is using a HP-scaled shield already.

And this post even has an agree? Seriously?

Do people even play this game before posting here?

Haha yeah. Makes me want to go more tanky and just be a huge distraction. I want to level a DK now though. That leap from the wall was awesome.

trimsic_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Since dodge roll seems "meh" and hardened ward OP, let's take away Hardened ward and replace it with a dodge roll sorc skill that uses magicka. Should make everybody happy, no?

If a dodge roll could heal me, or would allow me to deal damage while I dodge, YES !

You should be embarrassed of commenting on something without knowing how to use it properly. Look here http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/169525/solo-nightblade-keep-defense-1vx-pvp-w-sypher#latest and see how to do damage while dodge rolling. Here is a hint .... dodge roll doesn't take up the same global cool down as activating an ability.

So, you saw a video where you think the night blade can deal damage while dodge rolling, and now you come to the conclusion that this is something we can do. But, to be honest, between you and me, did you ever try it?

No, because I mean if you had tried it, you would have realized this is just not possible.

The only thing you can do is to cut anim an ability with a dodge roll.

May be you saw the night blade dodging an attack with the 20% dodge chance of the medium armor ability?

Erock25

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

The only thing you can do is to cut anim an ability with a dodge roll.

Which is exactly what I'm talking about because it allows you to do damage while dodge rolling which is exactly what you said couldn't happen. The global cool down for abilities is around 1 second, which coincides nicely with the around 1 second immunity from dodge roll. You can actually weave your abilities with dodge rolls and attack literally just as fast if you were just spamming the ability.

If a dodge roll could heal me, or would allow me to deal damage while I dodge, YES ! The only dmg you are doing while spamming Hardened Ward is light/medium attacks, while dodge roll mitigates infinitely (literally) more damage than Hardened Ward and allows you to use ability attacks at maximum speed.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Ezareth wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Since dodge roll seems "meh" and hardened ward OP, let's take away Hardened ward and replace it with a dodge roll sorc skill that uses magicka. Should make everybody happy, no?

If a dodge roll could heal me, or would allow me to deal damage while I dodge, YES !

You should be embarrassed of commenting on something without knowing how to use it properly. Look here http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/169525/solo-nightblade-keep-defense-1vx-pvp-w-sypher#latest and see how to do damage while dodge rolling. Here is a hint .... dodge roll doesn't take up the same global cool down as activating an ability.

Yup, this is why I'm not even playing my Sorc any more. It is absurd how easy it is for me to kill shield stacking sorcs with 30K hps on my NB in BWB. Lv 49 Sorc last night was trying to kill my L28 NB with my own game by overloading me to death. He hit me with 1 overload while I did nothing but dodge roll animation cancel > crit charge > dodge roll animation cancel crit charge > wrecking blow. Once he broke free and tried to run I crit charge spammed every bolt escape he cast and put him down like a rabid dog. The fight ended with me at full health, magicka, and 80% Stamina. The funny thing is I don't even have fear yet.

Dodge Roll Spam, Wrecking Blow Spam, Fear Spam, cast anything and I'll Venom Arrow > crit charge you for +25% damage.

NBs and stam builds are unholy terrors right now and who are the people complaining about Sorcs? Irony at its finest.

I know for a fact if you try to attack while rolling it will slightly delay your roll so that you can be hit. With 5+ people chasing you that slight delay means death. So we either commit to rolling away to safety or we risk casting something and being hit in return. Same thing with bolt escape, if you stop casting it for anything your opening yourself to getting hit. Luckly there is plenty of moves to counter either of these escape methods, so if your bars aren't up to the task then thats your problem. As a nb myself I usually deal with my roll spammy brethren with a soul assault once they enter "oh *** im getting owned time to roll" phase. We generally dont have much health to begin with so once we get into roll stance we are probably done for with 1 soul assault. What sorcs usually do to kill me is apply deadric curse and magic detonation on me before roll phase begins so that way they got damage on me and prevent me from cloaking. Thats what good sorcs do, the baddies go to the forums after their frags miss and I restealth to 3 shot them with snipe. Another tip, never assume a cloaking nb is trying to run from you, most of the time we are stalking you and waiting for a weakness to open. I can one shot an unshielded sorc with a sneak uppercut so watch you back.

Jeremy

Domander wrote: »

This would make health more of a stat you would want defensively as opposed to getting double the benefit of offense and defense from another resource pool.

choices...choices..

Here's the damage shields that should change.

brawler
whitestrakes
annulment
conjured ward


Steadfast ward is a healing tool, and for the sake of balance already scales with health. It scales with missing health. A higher health pool will allow you to more easily take advantage of this scaling.

Barrier should stay scaling off highest stat, I think it should be changed to allow health to increase it's value, if that should be the highest stat. It is an ultimate after all. This is really the only exception that makes sense to me. It is technically a damage shield, but it's also an ultimate.

The other damage shields in the game scale with health, or are static.


discuss.

I tried out Steadfast ward and wasn't impressed with it. In fact I thought it sucked. So I don't really think making the rest of the shields like that one is a good solution.

Abilities need to be effective and useful else there is no point to having them. The better way to address PvP problems (if that is the root of your OP) is to tone down the damage to where offensive jobs can't make use of shields to blow people away in seconds while being protected by them.

ToRelax

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Since dodge roll seems "meh" and hardened ward OP, let's take away Hardened ward and replace it with a dodge roll sorc skill that uses magicka. Should make everybody happy, no?

If a dodge roll could heal me, or would allow me to deal damage while I dodge, YES !

You should be embarrassed of commenting on something without knowing how to use it properly. Look here http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/169525/solo-nightblade-keep-defense-1vx-pvp-w-sypher#latest and see how to do damage while dodge rolling. Here is a hint .... dodge roll doesn't take up the same global cool down as activating an ability.

Yup, this is why I'm not even playing my Sorc any more. It is absurd how easy it is for me to kill shield stacking sorcs with 30K hps on my NB in BWB. Lv 49 Sorc last night was trying to kill my L28 NB with my own game by overloading me to death. He hit me with 1 overload while I did nothing but dodge roll animation cancel > crit charge > dodge roll animation cancel crit charge > wrecking blow. Once he broke free and tried to run I crit charge spammed every bolt escape he cast and put him down like a rabid dog. The fight ended with me at full health, magicka, and 80% Stamina. The funny thing is I don't even have fear yet.

Dodge Roll Spam, Wrecking Blow Spam, Fear Spam, cast anything and I'll Venom Arrow > crit charge you for +25% damage.

NBs and stam builds are unholy terrors right now and who are the people complaining about Sorcs? Irony at its finest.

I know for a fact if you try to attack while rolling it will slightly delay your roll so that you can be hit. With 5+ people chasing you that slight delay means death. So we either commit to rolling away to safety or we risk casting something and being hit in return. Same thing with bolt escape, if you stop casting it for anything your opening yourself to getting hit. Luckly there is plenty of moves to counter either of these escape methods, so if your bars aren't up to the task then thats your problem. As a nb myself I usually deal with my roll spammy brethren with a soul assault once they enter "oh *** im getting owned time to roll" phase. We generally dont have much health to begin with so once we get into roll stance we are probably done for with 1 soul assault. What sorcs usually do to kill me is apply deadric curse and magic detonation on me before roll phase begins so that way they got damage on me and prevent me from cloaking. Thats what good sorcs do, the baddies go to the forums after their frags miss and I restealth to 3 shot them with snipe. Another tip, never assume a cloaking nb is trying to run from you, most of the time we are stalking you and waiting for a weakness to open. I can one shot an unshielded sorc with a sneak uppercut so watch you back.

When I dodge cast on my Sorc to finish a target or heal up while creating distance, I get only hit from abilities that ignore dodge roll, wich are not many (so usually don't get hit at all).
I know for a fact that the immunity you get from dodge roll lasts slightly longer than the actual animation, so you are actually even able to cancel a light attack + an instant cast ability with a dodge roll without opening an window where someone could hit you.

BTW, why don't your brethren use cloak when you soul assault them ^^ ?

I guess I am a good Sorc then... lol, I won't complain about missing frags and snipes x) .

Oh and never assume a Sorc is unaware, I do what I can to get the bad NBs to attack me because they know they can't kill anyone in an open fight... Defensive Rune is your friend.

trimsic_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

The only thing you can do is to cut anim an ability with a dodge roll.

Which is exactly what I'm talking about because it allows you to do damage while dodge rolling which is exactly what you said couldn't happen. The global cool down for abilities is around 1 second, which coincides nicely with the around 1 second immunity from dodge roll. You can actually weave your abilities with dodge rolls and attack literally just as fast if you were just spamming the ability.

If a dodge roll could heal me, or would allow me to deal damage while I dodge, YES ! The only dmg you are doing while spamming Hardened Ward is light/medium attacks, while dodge roll mitigates infinitely (literally) more damage than Hardened Ward and allows you to use ability attacks at maximum speed.

I've watched the video again and again in order to make sure that, yes, what you thought were dodge rolls were actually a dodge chance passive ability... He never, ever, used a dodge roll as a cut anim mean to deal damage while dodge rolling. And I can understand this, because it's quite a difficult move to execute.

ToRelax

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

The only thing you can do is to cut anim an ability with a dodge roll.

Which is exactly what I'm talking about because it allows you to do damage while dodge rolling which is exactly what you said couldn't happen. The global cool down for abilities is around 1 second, which coincides nicely with the around 1 second immunity from dodge roll. You can actually weave your abilities with dodge rolls and attack literally just as fast if you were just spamming the ability.

If a dodge roll could heal me, or would allow me to deal damage while I dodge, YES ! The only dmg you are doing while spamming Hardened Ward is light/medium attacks, while dodge roll mitigates infinitely (literally) more damage than Hardened Ward and allows you to use ability attacks at maximum speed.

I've watched the video again and again in order to make sure that, yes, what you thought were dodge rolls were actually a dodge chance passive ability... He never, ever, used a dodge roll as a cut anim mean to deal damage while dodge rolling. And I can understand this, because it's quite a difficult move to execute.

He did dodge cancel, mostly executes, wich makes sense. And no, after doing it a few times it's seriously not hard at all.

(I mean, with some experience it's pretty easy, not that I just tried it the first time...)

cozmon3c_ESO

Ok after playing a magicka sorc and then switching to stam sorc I can safely say that only, and I mean only, magicka based sorcs have trouble hitting roll dodgers. Dk's use petrified, templars use jesus beam, and nightblades use ambush, concealed weapon and fear. Nightblades seem to be the most versatile class in the game imo. Wearing medium armor feels no different then wearing light against a nightblades burst.

cozmon3c_ESO

As a stam sorc I have trouble against some sorcs shields, only some though. The issue is they nerves light armor to much. So I propose increase light armors armor, Fix the overage damage on shields, then tone down the amount hardened ward can mitigate of damage, or scale off health (this will open more build options for sorcs stam and tank builds). But you cannot just flat out Nerf hardened ward with the way the game balance is right now, the field would be riddled with dead magicka sorcs.

k2blader

People are still crying about sorc shields even as they "utilize" the nirn bug and excuse rampant exploiting?

TheDokk

I will take shields scaling from health if I get dodge roll and break out depleting from my highest stat, being stam or mag.

Domander

k2blader wrote: »

People are still crying about sorc shields even as they "utilize" the nirn bug and excuse rampant exploiting?

I don't know, are people crying about sorc shields? This thread is about more than sorcs... so...

and yeah.. nirnhoned armor needs fixed, the lack of urgency is disturbing.

Domander

TheDokk wrote: »

I will take shields scaling from health if I get dodge roll and break out depleting from my highest stat, being stam or mag.

That sounds good.

I'd actually love it if they'd add another resource just for defensive moves like dodge block and break free, balance it out between stam and magicka

no more dodge rolling forever, no more blocking forever, break free will mean more.

ToRelax

Domander wrote: »

TheDokk wrote: »

I will take shields scaling from health if I get dodge roll and break out depleting from my highest stat, being stam or mag.

That sounds good.

I'd actually love it if they'd add another resource just for defensive moves like dodge block and break free, balance it out between stam and magicka

no more dodge rolling forever, no more blocking forever, break free will mean more.

Not a solution as stamina builds will suddenly lack in defense and for both stamina and magicka builds there wouldn't be a reason to invest in the other one.

Domander

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

TheDokk wrote: »

I will take shields scaling from health if I get dodge roll and break out depleting from my highest stat, being stam or mag.

That sounds good.

I'd actually love it if they'd add another resource just for defensive moves like dodge block and break free, balance it out between stam and magicka

no more dodge rolling forever, no more blocking forever, break free will mean more.

Not a solution as stamina builds will suddenly lack in defense and for both stamina and magicka builds there wouldn't be a reason to invest in the other one.

I could see magicka not wanting to invest in stamina but...

medium armor gives reduction in the cost of dodge.

heavy armor reduces block cost

and most stamina builds use some magicka, that wouldn't change.