Make all damage shields in game scale with health.

k2blader

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

And for you sorc players who are trying to avoid a nerf, stop posting in these threads. A thread always dies when people are only in agreement. Seriously.

That's like saying let's create a forum for intelligent discussion then telling intelligent people not to post.

Teargrants

Lertil wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

There is no counterplay to damage shields other than to pray you get a lucky crit once their shields are down.

Wrong. The way you out play damage shields is to attack their stamina and CC them into oblivion, or out dps the shield recast limit.

a single player cannot outdps shield recast, as well as stamina starve a sorc with 1.2k stamina regen.

If youre arguing that a sorc being needing to be killed by 3+ people SHOULD be a requirement you need to stop posting right now.

Wrong again. My shield is 10,172, combined w/ 1 sec GCD are you claiming that no one can put out over 10k dps against something that has 0 spell resist/armor? Keep in mind I can only keep up 10k shield every sec vs 10k dps if I'm just standing there doing literally nothing but recasting. No blinky blink, no dps. No where did I say that you need to out dps shield recast and break through stam. I very clearly stated 'or'. The entire idea is I can't keep recasting if you CC me constantly and force me to block in between.

That you would think it takes 3+ ppl to take down a sorc is indicative of either ignorance or deliberate misrepresentation. I can tell you right now there are plenty of ppl who can take me down 1v1.

Kelleton

You should not be able to stack one stat and from that receive the best offensive and best defensive benefit.

from that shields and dodge roll need nerfed

Kelleton

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

There is no counterplay to damage shields other than to pray you get a lucky crit once their shields are down.

Wrong. The way you out play damage shields is to attack their stamina and CC them into oblivion, or out dps the shield recast limit.

a single player cannot outdps shield recast, as well as stamina starve a sorc with 1.2k stamina regen.

If youre arguing that a sorc being needing to be killed by 3+ people SHOULD be a requirement you need to stop posting right now.

Wrong again. My shield is 10,172, combined w/ 1 sec GCD are you claiming that no one can put out over 10k dps against something that has 0 spell resist/armor? Keep in mind I can only keep up 10k shield every sec vs 10k dps if I'm just standing there doing literally nothing but recasting. No blinky blink, no dps. No where did I say that you need to out dps shield recast and break through stam. I very clearly stated 'or'. The entire idea is I can't keep recasting if you CC me constantly and force me to block in between.

That you would think it takes 3+ ppl to take down a sorc is indicative of either ignorance or deliberate misrepresentation. I can tell you right now there are plenty of ppl who can take me down 1v1.

what ability can do 10k hits without a crit?

Ezareth

Kelleton wrote: »

You should not be able to stack one stat and from that receive the best offensive and best defensive benefit.

from that shields and dodge roll need nerfed

The best offensive stat is spellpower by a factor greater than 10. The offensive increase from magicka is really quite negligible....the heaviest hitters focus on Spellpower/Weapon damage first, Magicka/Stamina are secondary.

Kelleton wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

There is no counterplay to damage shields other than to pray you get a lucky crit once their shields are down.

Wrong. The way you out play damage shields is to attack their stamina and CC them into oblivion, or out dps the shield recast limit.

a single player cannot outdps shield recast, as well as stamina starve a sorc with 1.2k stamina regen.

If youre arguing that a sorc being needing to be killed by 3+ people SHOULD be a requirement you need to stop posting right now.

Wrong again. My shield is 10,172, combined w/ 1 sec GCD are you claiming that no one can put out over 10k dps against something that has 0 spell resist/armor? Keep in mind I can only keep up 10k shield every sec vs 10k dps if I'm just standing there doing literally nothing but recasting. No blinky blink, no dps. No where did I say that you need to out dps shield recast and break through stam. I very clearly stated 'or'. The entire idea is I can't keep recasting if you CC me constantly and force me to block in between.

That you would think it takes 3+ ppl to take down a sorc is indicative of either ignorance or deliberate misrepresentation. I can tell you right now there are plenty of ppl who can take me down 1v1.

what ability can do 10k hits without a crit?

What game are you playing? We're talking about *unmitigated* hits here. My overload hits shields for over 10K and I'm only running 2 spellpower set bonuses. If I were running 6 of them like some people I'd be hitting for 13K probably.

ToRelax

Kelleton wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

There is no counterplay to damage shields other than to pray you get a lucky crit once their shields are down.

Wrong. The way you out play damage shields is to attack their stamina and CC them into oblivion, or out dps the shield recast limit.

a single player cannot outdps shield recast, as well as stamina starve a sorc with 1.2k stamina regen.

If youre arguing that a sorc being needing to be killed by 3+ people SHOULD be a requirement you need to stop posting right now.

Wrong again. My shield is 10,172, combined w/ 1 sec GCD are you claiming that no one can put out over 10k dps against something that has 0 spell resist/armor? Keep in mind I can only keep up 10k shield every sec vs 10k dps if I'm just standing there doing literally nothing but recasting. No blinky blink, no dps. No where did I say that you need to out dps shield recast and break through stam. I very clearly stated 'or'. The entire idea is I can't keep recasting if you CC me constantly and force me to block in between.

That you would think it takes 3+ ppl to take down a sorc is indicative of either ignorance or deliberate misrepresentation. I can tell you right now there are plenty of ppl who can take me down 1v1.

what ability can do 10k hits without a crit?

Why said you need such an ability for 10k dps?

Snit

Kelleton wrote: »

what ability can do 10k hits without a crit?

It's not just one ability. Anyone competent is weaving light/ heavy attacks in as well.

Teargrants

Kelleton wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

There is no counterplay to damage shields other than to pray you get a lucky crit once their shields are down.

Wrong. The way you out play damage shields is to attack their stamina and CC them into oblivion, or out dps the shield recast limit.

a single player cannot outdps shield recast, as well as stamina starve a sorc with 1.2k stamina regen.

If youre arguing that a sorc being needing to be killed by 3+ people SHOULD be a requirement you need to stop posting right now.

Wrong again. My shield is 10,172, combined w/ 1 sec GCD are you claiming that no one can put out over 10k dps against something that has 0 spell resist/armor? Keep in mind I can only keep up 10k shield every sec vs 10k dps if I'm just standing there doing literally nothing but recasting. No blinky blink, no dps. No where did I say that you need to out dps shield recast and break through stam. I very clearly stated 'or'. The entire idea is I can't keep recasting if you CC me constantly and force me to block in between.

That you would think it takes 3+ ppl to take down a sorc is indicative of either ignorance or deliberate misrepresentation. I can tell you right now there are plenty of ppl who can take me down 1v1.

what ability can do 10k hits without a crit?

Snipe and wrecking blow for starters remember shields have 0 mitigation. Do I even need to go through this? It's not about exceeding 10k in 1 hit, it's about exceeding 10k dps.

Cody

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

There is no counterplay to damage shields other than to pray you get a lucky crit once their shields are down.

Wrong. The way you out play damage shields is to attack their stamina and CC them into oblivion, or out dps the shield recast limit.

a single player cannot outdps shield recast, as well as stamina starve a sorc with 1.2k stamina regen.

If youre arguing that a sorc being needing to be killed by 3+ people SHOULD be a requirement you need to stop posting right now.

Wrong again. My shield is 10,172, combined w/ 1 sec GCD are you claiming that no one can put out over 10k dps against something that has 0 spell resist/armor? Keep in mind I can only keep up 10k shield every sec vs 10k dps if I'm just standing there doing literally nothing but recasting. No blinky blink, no dps. No where did I say that you need to out dps shield recast and break through stam. I very clearly stated 'or'. The entire idea is I can't keep recasting if you CC me constantly and force me to block in between.

That you would think it takes 3+ ppl to take down a sorc is indicative of either ignorance or deliberate misrepresentation. I can tell you right now there are plenty of ppl who can take me down 1v1.

/hits teargrants with WB spam and constant fears

LtCrunch

Snit wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

There is no counterplay to damage shields other than to pray you get a lucky crit once their shields are down.

As a sorc, I once thought there was no counterplay for Reflective Scales.

I watched a bunch of videos by better sorcs, and I learned how to handle a magicka DK with RS. It's not easy, but it's possible. It just requires more player skill, some gear tweaks and a different set of skills on the bar. I don't always run with those skills slotted, as I have other priorities in Cyrodiil. But I could.

Please edit your post to quote the proper source. I never made that statement @Snit

Soris

Summary of this thread: Sorcerers defending their shield.

I mean..really...
Take a seat, sit back and think objective. Why on earth defence and offence should share same pool that can be stacked through hell?(this applies for dodge rolling also) Why? I really fail to understand. Is this really perfect design for your perspective?
I also can not decide whether you are so naive and blind to miss the point or you just ignore everything and defend this error of mechanics for all costs with lots of game of words and such.

If you complain about 15k hits from various sources, then the right thing to do is to adjust damage values and power stacking after the shield/dodge issue is done. And then maybe slightly more health preferably.
With this way, all classes will become equal in terms of CHOICES to going defensive or offensive or mixed. And give them nightblades a class shield already.

Teargrants

Soris wrote: »

With this way, all classes will become equal in terms of CHOICES to going defensive or offensive or mixed. And give them nightblades a class shield already.

Totally agree w/ you brah, soon as my tiny 'fixed' sorc shield goes down I can hit dat Green Mage's Blood and keep myself healed.

Soris

Because there is a thing like Dragon Escape yeah.

Soris

Or Balls of Dragon with Hot Wings attached.

Domander

Brandalf wrote: »

Let's be honest here this is another "nerf hardened ward" complaint thread. Call it what it is because hardened ward is the only damage shield that does not scale off of your max HP besides maybe brawler(haven't tested it). If you're going to ask for that then I demand the amount of times one can dodge roll is limited across the board regardless if how much stamina/stamina regeneration someone stacks along with it. In my eyes dodge monkey builds are a much larger problem than hardened ward and/or shield stacking. I do think that the healing received debuff should have some type of effect on damage shields though. Since a damage shield is just preventative healing vs reactive healing.

Fact is without hardened ward scaling the way it does Sorc's would be severely effected in a negative capacity in PVP. I actually think all class damage shields should scale off of magicka to give magicka more utility for other classes and. help make up for the extreme squishy nature of light armor. Either that or give light armor much more powerful bonuses for DPS/burst output as it is medium has the best offensive bonuses along with the 3/4 the defenses of heavy. Light armor gets a bit worse offensive bonuses and much worse defenses(1/4 of heavy armor)

As it is there is a reason Sorc's are pretty much the only formidable magicka light armor builds atm, because they are capable of effective defense unlike other classes. So I propose all class damage shields scale off of max magicka to give light armor proper utility as well as a means of potential effective defense across all classes.

There are a few that don't, annulment, or whitestrakes (stamina)

Domander

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

This is a sorc nerf dressed up like some sort of balance issue. Sure it's defensive and it scales off of a damage resource pool. News flash Einstein block and dodge roll are also used by the stamina pool which is also a damage resource. So basically we should need to spread out pools but stamina builds shouldn't. LMFAO.

Does block and dodge get more powerful with more stamina? News flash Einstein, no it doesn't.

Teargrants

Soris wrote: »

Because there is a thing like Dragon Escape yeah.

I'm so glad you agree with me.

Itoq

Ezareth wrote: »

The offensive increase from magicka is really quite negligible....the heaviest hitters focus on Spellpower/Weapon damage first, Magicka/Stamina are secondary

The offensive increase from having more magicka goes beyond simply the slight amount of damage that additional magicka adds on its own.

With more magicka comes a bigger magicka pool.

With a bigger magicka pool comes less need to commit set bonuses and enchants to magicka mangement.

With less need to commit set bonuses and enchants to magicka management comes the ability to commit more set bonuses to damage output (and/or other stuff like defensive bonuses and/or stam management.)

All of which nearly all of us know and I don't think we should pretend is not part of the issue.

Soris

Teargrants wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Because there is a thing like Dragon Escape yeah.

I'm so glad you agree with me.

Not gonna lie, I lol'd.
PS: I don't agree with you

Ace_SiN

I only really have an issue with sorc damage shields, 1v1, when I'm on a char with low dps. Other than that they have to outplay me and can't just rely on their shields to win the fight for them.

I'll add that needing 1 extreme to counter another is the real issue with the balance of ESO..

Kelleton

Teargrants wrote: »

Kelleton wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Lertil wrote: »

There is no counterplay to damage shields other than to pray you get a lucky crit once their shields are down.

Wrong. The way you out play damage shields is to attack their stamina and CC them into oblivion, or out dps the shield recast limit.

a single player cannot outdps shield recast, as well as stamina starve a sorc with 1.2k stamina regen.

If youre arguing that a sorc being needing to be killed by 3+ people SHOULD be a requirement you need to stop posting right now.

Wrong again. My shield is 10,172, combined w/ 1 sec GCD are you claiming that no one can put out over 10k dps against something that has 0 spell resist/armor? Keep in mind I can only keep up 10k shield every sec vs 10k dps if I'm just standing there doing literally nothing but recasting. No blinky blink, no dps. No where did I say that you need to out dps shield recast and break through stam. I very clearly stated 'or'. The entire idea is I can't keep recasting if you CC me constantly and force me to block in between.

That you would think it takes 3+ ppl to take down a sorc is indicative of either ignorance or deliberate misrepresentation. I can tell you right now there are plenty of ppl who can take me down 1v1.

what ability can do 10k hits without a crit?

Snipe and wrecking blow for starters remember shields have 0 mitigation. Do I even need to go through this? It's not about exceeding 10k in 1 hit, it's about exceeding 10k dps.

You are smoking crack if you think wrecking blow has a 10k non crit hit unless I am completely missing something. Yes its non mitigated but I am running over 3300 weapon power and 26000 sta and my wrecking blows do not get anywhere near 10k hits on a non crit.

not to mention both of those skills have cast time while your shield is instant

Tintinabula

roll dodging ,shield blocking..vigor..all things we are told as stamina users that supposedly = ward(while they are also available to everyone). Yet..we have to splain why we want a shield based off our main stat. Y u give us no stam shield ZOS??!!

..oor make it fair and base all shield strength off health.

Domander

Snit wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

There is no counterplay to damage shields other than to pray you get a lucky crit once their shields are down.

As a sorc, I once thought there was no counterplay for Reflective Scales.

I watched a bunch of videos by better sorcs, and I learned how to handle a magicka DK with RS. It's not easy, but it's possible. It just requires more player skill, some gear tweaks and a different set of skills on the bar. I don't always run with those skills slotted, as I have other priorities in Cyrodiil. But I could.

You can get past shields, but it requires that the player stacking them mess up. It's a matter of watching for it and then bursting. The best players don't mess this part up though, and sorcs specifically can just bolt away when their stamina gets low, riding out the last immunity. The server usually won't let you keep up if they are bolting as fast as possible.

I just think the game would be a lot more balanced around offense vs defense if all shields scaled with health. I think this should be done along with reverting the shield nerf in pvp.

exiledtyrant

Shields, stealth, and dodge chance are toxic defenses. They should have given everyone a way to heal and mitigate without adding in such hard counter designs. If anything cast time skills could have seen damage shields sparsely throughout morphs. I could definitely see a damage shield popped while healing ritual is being cast for example as a morph. To force a class to be so feast or famine defensively is no fun in my opinion. If sorcerers had other actual options I don't think number of people defending shields be so high.

I'm a fan of things like blockers ( absorbs x amount of hits), counter moves, reflects, high mitigation window skills etc. They always have things that the person defending can do and the person attacking can do without feeling cheap.

Erondil

Soris wrote: »

Summary of this thread: Sorcerers defending their shield.

I mean..really...
Take a seat, sit back and think objective. Why on earth defence and offence should share same pool that can be stacked through hell?(this applies for dodge rolling also) Why? I really fail to understand. Is this really perfect design for your perspective?
I also can not decide whether you are so naive and blind to miss the point or you just ignore everything and defend this error of mechanics for all costs with lots of game of words and such.

If you complain about 15k hits from various sources, then the right thing to do is to adjust damage values and power stacking after the shield/dodge issue is done. And then maybe slightly more health preferably.
With this way, all classes will become equal in terms of CHOICES to going defensive or offensive or mixed. And give them nightblades a class shield already.

Do you think there is only sorcs who needs shields scaling on magicka? What about the magicka NB who has no class shield/heal? Read my other post.
Stamina has equally a lot of advantages stacking all in stamina like.. better vigor/rally (knowing that vigor is the best no class-heal in the game) more roll dodge and higher damages, so they have at the same time offence and defence stacking stamina. You cry because magicka spec dont have to run with 25+k health while stamina dont need it either. Seems legit.

Domander

Erondil wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Summary of this thread: Sorcerers defending their shield.

I mean..really...
Take a seat, sit back and think objective. Why on earth defence and offence should share same pool that can be stacked through hell?(this applies for dodge rolling also) Why? I really fail to understand. Is this really perfect design for your perspective?
I also can not decide whether you are so naive and blind to miss the point or you just ignore everything and defend this error of mechanics for all costs with lots of game of words and such.

If you complain about 15k hits from various sources, then the right thing to do is to adjust damage values and power stacking after the shield/dodge issue is done. And then maybe slightly more health preferably.
With this way, all classes will become equal in terms of CHOICES to going defensive or offensive or mixed. And give them nightblades a class shield already.

Do you think there is only sorcs who needs shields scaling on magicka? What about the magicka NB who has no class shield/heal? Read my other post.
Stamina has equally a lot of advantages stacking all in stamina like.. better vigor/rally (knowing that vigor is the best no class-heal in the game) more roll dodge and higher damages, so they have at the same time offence and defence stacking stamina. You cry because magicka spec dont have to run with 25+k health while stamina dont need it either. Seems legit.

Who's crying?

So you don't think a magicka nightblade with more health than magicka would benefit from things scaling with health?

Interesting.

Docmandu

People won't be happy until there are no more skills in the sorc line I guess.. wonder what would happen when perma roll dodgers were nerfed with increased dodge roll cost and stopped regen if you dodge within 4 seconds.

iseko

I have a VR14 sorc. Dont like the current meta for sorc so not playing it atm. I like playing with my temp. I dont see a problem with sorcs. You got a 10k shield so what? I got a KD + blazing shield + BoL. I dont give them time to put their burst combo on me. And if they do manage I just tank through it with blazing + healing ward + BLOCK + BoL and I get back to pounding on them.

Dark flare + destro heavy + crushing shock + destructive reach + jesus beam. If they run away -> /ignore. If they come back. Rinse and repeat. I find it hard to kill them because of their escape. But they can't kill me that easy either. Only thing you have to do is NOT follow the blinky.

One thing I also like doing when I see a sorc incoming: channeled focus + mist (=free mist). Go behind them. Unleash the combo I described above. Watch them melt.

Want to kill blinky? Then don't chase blinky. He will come back. Hit him from behind and watch him go boom. If you want to play how YOU want and that involves being a glass cannon stamina build with 0% survivability who thinks he should instareck everyone out there because you have 3.5K+ weapon damage and uber wrecking blow skills... well then sucks to be you. People learned to counter those builds a while now.

ToRelax

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Shields, stealth, and dodge chance are toxic defenses. They should have given everyone a way to heal and mitigate without adding in such hard counter designs. If anything cast time skills could have seen damage shields sparsely throughout morphs. I could definitely see a damage shield popped while healing ritual is being cast for example as a morph. To force a class to be so feast or famine defensively is no fun in my opinion. If sorcerers had other actual options I don't think number of people defending shields be so high.

I'm a fan of things like blockers ( absorbs x amount of hits), counter moves, reflects, high mitigation window skills etc. They always have things that the person defending can do and the person attacking can do without feeling cheap.

I see your point. I agree that these counters are hard to balance, I personally like them but to each his own. But how can you be okay with reflects then? That's like the ultimate hard counter...

pkb16_ESO2

In my opinion it would be a real good solution. Remove the cyro shield debuff and scale shield of health would buff temps a bit (what is nessesary) and maybe bring down sorc to earth.

There should be an Option to ignore People in the Forum because i cant read this stupid "Sorc Lobby" anymore.
They prevent a realistic Discusion about these balance issues.